47 replies to this topic

[nushu]

Article about how shoes destroy health- http://www.npr.org/t...toryId=89830802

Vibrum Five Fingers (anti shoes)- http://www.vibramfiv...ducts/index.cfm

Vivo Barefoot (more anti shoes!)- http://www.terraplana.com/vivobarefoot

I own both kinds, Five Fingers for training and Vivos for work/everyday wear. The Vivos are sized small, if you get em you need to get one size bigger than you'd normally wear. It's funny, I never thought I'd give a squat about shoes- but I'll never go back now.

[Cyberbrain]

Neat! But I'll stick with my orthopedic shoes for the time being

[cyborgdreamer]

I've always walked barefoot when I'm at home and it gives me these annoying thick callouses that I can't get rid of. So if you want soft, sensitive skin on your feet, I wouldn't advise walking barefoot too much.

[Ben]

What idiotic pseudoscience is this?

[nushu]

Conventional shoes place more stress on lower body joints-http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112775868/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

I'm not advocating going barefoot, but there are shoes like the Vibrams and Vivos that work with your feet instead of against them. Since I've starting wearing these shoes my knees, back, and shin splints no longer bother me. I think the reason why many people feel crappy walking barefoot is because they have forgotten how to properly walk because of the way conventional foot ware alters our gait. It can be relearned, I did it in a couple days.

[Shoe]

Bullshit.

Edited by Shoe, 22 August 2008 - 03:08 AM.

[kismet]

You mean going barefoot or using lightweight shoes is bullshit i.e. useless? The idea sounds reasonable, it should help your feet to become more stable. Anyway this is a really big thing on sport/training boards like rosstraining. Especially the vibrams.

Getting used to lightweight shoes is a necessity for serious athletes anyway. They are great for a lot of sports. Shoes are an important part of your training equipment.


As far as I remember those articles were pretty interesting:
http://www.sportsci....our/0103/mw.htm
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more

[mike250]

I have some extreme flat feet and my doctor recommended I walk on sand. Its quite painful I must say.

[nushu]

I'm surprised at some of the responses, they remind me of the response I get from many people when talking about life extension. There seems to be a powerful emotional component attached to people's ideas about footwear. I'm not asking anyone to change religions or political affiliation, just to consider that the conventional wisdom about what we put on our feet can impact quality of life. Feet- like hands- contain an enormous number of nerves and tiny connective tissue structures, strapping the equivalent of a mattress pad to your feet may be detrimental.

Look at the feet of folks from parts of the world where shoe wearing is less common- robust feet with nicely spread toes that almost look prehensile. Now look at the feet of Westerners, ever muscular athletic men, and usually you see a frail looking foot with toes bunched together. Often the little toe curls under the adjacent toe, like a turtle trying to retreat into the comfort of his shell.

Edited by nushu, 22 August 2008 - 02:29 PM.

[buck1s]

I'm not sure how I feel about the look of the Vibram product, but if there's one I'm willing to try, it's that one. Every pair of Merrell shoes I've owned has had a Vibram sole and these are the most comfortable shoes I've ever owned. I'm sure that I'll look like a crazy person out walking the dog, looking at my feet, and bursting into laughter. Over and over.

[nushu]

I'm not sure how I feel about the look of the Vibram product, but if there's one I'm willing to try, it's that one. Every pair of Merrell shoes I've owned has had a Vibram sole and these are the most comfortable shoes I've ever owned. I'm sure that I'll look like a crazy person out walking the dog, looking at my feet, and bursting into laughter. Over and over.

The responses I've received from wearing the Five Fingers in public have all been positive, people want to know what kind of shoes they are, how they feel etc. The Vivo Barefoot shoes have the benefit of looking like any other shoe, these are what I wear to work, and in more formal situations.

[kismet]

We have to disgtinguish
- new age hippie crap "barefoot is cool, nature is great"
- going barefoot or using lightweight shoes (vibrams, nike mayfly) to improve performance
- rehab/prehab/strengthening of the feet by going (almost) barefoot
- injury prevention.

That article adresses the latter and also the performance aspects. Epidemiological data shows unshod runners are less likely to suffer injury, but there are no controlled trials.
"Where barefoot and shod populations co-exist, as in Haiti, injury rates of the lower extremity are substantially higher in the shod population..."
"The modern running shoe and footwear generally reduce sensory feedback, apparently without diminishing injury-inducing impact–a process Robbins and Gouw (1991) described as the 'perceptual illusion' of athletic footwear. "
"Measurements of the vertical component of ground-reaction force during running provide no support for the notion that running shoes reduce shock...However, in these studies the subjects ran on treadmills or force platforms..."
That article also talks about running efficiency, shoes and sport. Though, this is a no-brainer. [competetive] sprinters are going to use lightweight spikes, marathon runners lightweight trainers (<300g) or even something in the ballpark of the nike mayfly.
Why do we still need shoes? "shoes should be considered protective devices (from dangerous or painful objects) rather than corrective devices [in the healthy]"

However, the article is pretty old, so the best summary might be "Rome K, Hancock D, Poratt D. Barefoot running and walking: the pros and cons based on current evidence. N Z Med J. 2008 Apr 18;121(1272):109-11." I'd really want to get hold of the  full version.

I'm just not sure if barefoot running can help with the rehab/strengthening aspect nor which shoe would be best suited for freerunning, so if anyone can tell me, please do.
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more states:
In an article in the October 1997 Runner's World, Adam Bean gives the following advice: "Running barefoot a couple of times per week can decrease your risk of injury and boost your 'push-off' power."

[mitkat]

Bullshit.

I expected more of a response from you, Shoe!

As for the vibram five toed shoes themselves, you could get away with wearing them some places, some not imo. Depending on who you are, what you're comfortable with, etc you could wear them during exercise where ever that may take you. I'm liking a lot of what I'm reading about barefoot exercising and may just consider getting a pair of these in the future when more...ahem, styles become available.

Edited by mitkat, 22 August 2008 - 07:35 PM.

[Shoe]

You mean going barefoot or using lightweight shoes is bullshit i.e. useless? The idea sounds reasonable, it should help your feet to become more stable. Anyway this is a really big thing on sport/training boards like rosstraining. Especially the vibrams.

Getting used to lightweight shoes is a necessity for serious athletes anyway. They are great for a lot of sports. Shoes are an important part of your training equipment.


As far as I remember those articles were pretty interesting:
http://www.sportsci....our/0103/mw.htm
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more

Haha, sorry, I wasn't being serious. I just thought to myself that the title could be read as saying "people named Shoe are killing us".

[nushu]

We have to disgtinguish
- new age hippie crap "barefoot is cool, nature is great"
- going barefoot or using lightweight shoes (vibrams, nike mayfly) to improve performance
- rehab/prehab/strengthening of the feet by going (almost) barefoot
- injury prevention.

That article adresses the latter and also the performance aspects. Epidemiological data shows unshod runners are less likely to suffer injury, but there are no controlled trials.
"Where barefoot and shod populations co-exist, as in Haiti, injury rates of the lower extremity are substantially higher in the shod population..."
"The modern running shoe and footwear generally reduce sensory feedback, apparently without diminishing injury-inducing impact–a process Robbins and Gouw (1991) described as the 'perceptual illusion' of athletic footwear. "
"Measurements of the vertical component of ground-reaction force during running provide no support for the notion that running shoes reduce shock...However, in these studies the subjects ran on treadmills or force platforms..."
That article also talks about running efficiency, shoes and sport. Though, this is a no-brainer. [competetive] sprinters are going to use lightweight spikes, marathon runners lightweight trainers (<300g) or even something in the ballpark of the nike mayfly.
Why do we still need shoes? "shoes should be considered protective devices (from dangerous or painful objects) rather than corrective devices [in the healthy]"

However, the article is pretty old, so the best summary might be "Rome K, Hancock D, Poratt D. Barefoot running and walking: the pros and cons based on current evidence. N Z Med J. 2008 Apr 18;121(1272):109-11." I'd really want to get hold of the full version.

I'm just not sure if barefoot running can help with the rehab/strengthening aspect nor which shoe would be best suited for freerunning, so if anyone can tell me, please do.
http://www.quickswoo...ootwe.html#more states:
In an article in the October 1997 Runner's World, Adam Bean gives the following advice: "Running barefoot a couple of times per week can decrease your risk of injury and boost your 'push-off' power."

I've been wearing the Vibrams out to restaurants and the like, have gotten a couple glances but nothing negative.

[katzenjammer]

I sprint barefoot if I can get to a suitable surface - or, more often, with vibram fives. Vibram fives are fantastic. I wear them in the weight room now too.

The fact is, most people/runners have incredibly bad body mechanics. Watch even very accomplished runners and nine times out of ten you will be watching him/her heel strike.

Heel striking is an inefficient running style that is very bad for your joints. It's also only made possible with modern sneakers. If you don't believe me, go outside in barefeet or vibrams and go for a run with a heel-striking stride and see how far you get.

[kismet]

I am going to buy the vibram fivefingers soon, even though they're quite a rip-off, aren't they? I'd have to pay 100€ for going almost barefoot, that's ridiculous. All that because there's no competition out there...

BTW: as an reminder please vote for 'undergrads fighting age related disease' if you haven't, great job so far http://www.memberspr...ect/view/BVVE2C

[katzenjammer]

I am going to buy the vibram fivefingers soon, even though they're quite a rip-off, aren't they? I'd have to pay 100€ for going almost barefoot, that's ridiculous. All that because there's no competition out there...

I think the design ("five fingers") probably makes manufacturing a little expensive. They're very well constructed & incredibly durable.

[nushu]

Quick update: just spent the weekend in the Appalachian Mountains and put the Five Fingers to the test- 5 mile hike over some of the roughest terrain I've been on in years. My ability to trek over all the steep slopes, rocks, and roots was improved, maintained a fast pace too. For the first time hiking I felt like I didn't need my trekking poles. No foot blisters or joint pain from the excursion!

[katzenjammer]

Quick update: just spent the weekend in the Appalachian Mountains and put the Five Fingers to the test- 5 mile hike over some of the roughest terrain I've been on in years. My ability to trek over all the steep slopes, rocks, and roots was improved, maintained a fast pace too. For the first time hiking I felt like I didn't need my trekking poles. No foot blisters or joint pain from the excursion!

Hey, fabulous! I'm going up to Lake of the Clouds/Washington next week. My Limmers are still being repaired. Maybe I'll try my Fives. Probably not such a hot idea with a pack though, eh? Even without one, though, I'd think the rocks would be a bit much. Tough guy, eh?

[xispes]

Let me share my experience with the vibram five fingers.

They are very comfortable after the first few days (two first days you feel a few adjusting pains)
I really want to use this always. Can’t wait to get out of work to wear them.
Brings freedom to your toes, get's you "connected to the earth"

In the beginning of this thread I was so curious that I went to their site.

Five minutes later found a shop and got them.

Luckily i have a semi-perfect fit with the size 41 (26cm foot)

Very nice.

I would like to see people share interesting products and so functional.

I was reluctant to spend 90€ on a piece of rubber, but it paid off.

When I take off my normal shoes i notice that the fingers are all joined and almost overlapping.
When i take off the "five fingers" the fingers are straight and individually spaced in a more natural position.

Good Health.

Luis

[nushu]

Check out the Oct 2008 Men's Fitness magazine- they review the benefits of barefoot running and the Vibram Five Fingers.

[liorrh]

Let me share my experience with the vibram five fingers.

They are very comfortable after the first few days (two first days you feel a few adjusting pains)
I really want to use this always. Can’t wait to get out of work to wear them.
Brings freedom to your toes, get's you "connected to the earth"

In the beginning of this thread I was so curious that I went to their site.

Five minutes later found a shop and got them.

Luckily i have a semi-perfect fit with the size 41 (26cm foot)

Very nice.

I would like to see people share interesting products and so functional.

I was reluctant to spend 90€ on a piece of rubber, but it paid off.

When I take off my normal shoes i notice that the fingers are all joined and almost overlapping.
When i take off the "five fingers" the fingers are straight and individually spaced in a more natural position.

Good Health.

Luis

can you walk with them outside or jsut in the office/gym?

[katzenjammer]

Let me share my experience with the vibram five fingers.

They are very comfortable after the first few days (two first days you feel a few adjusting pains)
I really want to use this always. Can’t wait to get out of work to wear them.
Brings freedom to your toes, get's you "connected to the earth"

In the beginning of this thread I was so curious that I went to their site.

Five minutes later found a shop and got them.

Luckily i have a semi-perfect fit with the size 41 (26cm foot)

Very nice.

I would like to see people share interesting products and so functional.

I was reluctant to spend 90€ on a piece of rubber, but it paid off.

When I take off my normal shoes i notice that the fingers are all joined and almost overlapping.
When i take off the "five fingers" the fingers are straight and individually spaced in a more natural position.

Good Health.

Luis

can you walk with them outside or jsut in the office/gym?

You absolutely can walk in them anywhere - outside, inside; you can even walk on water Seriously, these things are awesome.

[nushu]

I've walked plenty of miles in Fives on concrete, asphalt, grass, and dirt.

[xispes]

Places i don't/can't use the five fingers
In the beach i dont like, because of the sand. I guess other places with gravel and such could be bothersome.
also mud.

They make other models for such extreme enviroments

[nushu]

Places i don't/can't use the five fingers
In the beach i dont like, because of the sand. I guess other places with gravel and such could be bothersome.
also mud.

They make other models for such extreme enviroments

I have the KSO (keep stuff out) model, this is more of an enclosed style and offers good protection against debris getting in. The top is a breathable synthetic mesh.

[kismet]

However, the article is pretty old, so the best summary might be "Rome K, Hancock D, Poratt D. Barefoot running and walking: the pros and cons based on current evidence. N Z Med J. 2008 Apr 18;121(1272):109-11." I'd really want to get hold of the  full version.

I am disappointed, now that I have read the paper (it's much rather an editorial) by Rome et al, they're only talking about children & shoes.

Another study I'd like to read, maybe someone has the full paper.
Br J Sports Med. 2008 Apr 18. [Epub ahead of print]
Is your prescription of distance running shoes evidence based?
Richards CE, Magin PJ, Callister R.
"OBJECTIVES: To determine whether the current practice of prescribing distance running shoes featuring elevated cushioned heels and pronation control systems tailored to the individual's foot type is evidence based.
...
CONCLUSION: The prescription of this shoe type to distance runners is not evidence based."

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, though. Yet it may hint at something. Is cushoning bad or useless?

Int J Sports Med. 2008 Jun;29(6):512-8. Epub 2007 Nov 16.
Barefoot-shod running differences: shoe or mass effect?
Divert C, Mornieux G, Freychat P, Baly L, Mayer F, Belli A
"The results show that there was a significant mass effect but no shoe effect for oxygen consumption...Net efficiency, which has metabolic and mechanical components, decreased in the shod condition...a decrease of the storage and restitution of elastic energy capacity which could explain the lower net efficiency reported in shod running."

I don't see anything good coming out of cushioning, but I don't have access to those studies so I really can't tell. Still I can't answer if going barefoot is good for injury prevention, strengthening, prehab/rehab or sports performance (disregarding the mass effect).

[Shannon Vyff]

I didn't put shoes on my babies till they were over 18 months, I'd read it hurts foot development. They all three started walking at 9 months-and had great balance and large motor skills compared to other kids their age all through their toddler and pre-k years. When I do miles on my treadmill every day, I use a flat thong so that it is like bare foot, I've done this over the years as I feel it is better for my bones (the vibrations/impact), my posture and my foot strength. I'd love to try the Vibram, but can't figure out many places I could get away wearing them, my being a woman--they just wouldn't match much...

[nushu]

This guy http://www.ebaumswor...o/watch/833132/ won the Olympic Marathon wearing nothing on his feet.