53 replies to this topic

[kismet]

Heat is bad for food. It creates exogenous AGEs and other badness. Sushi would fit in the raw food paradigm, although you'd have to ditch the rice. You don't want to be eating white rice anyway. Of course, sushi kind of blows the Vegan aspect, but you can't have everything. I don't have any particular desire to go Vegan, but I'm trying to move my diet in the raw direction. Sorry, but raw meat is not in the equation here, for the most part. Lower heat cooking methods, on the other hand could be interesting for things like meat. This could be curries, stews, and the like, as an example. Dried meat, like jerky, for instance, is a possibility.

Yes, and I have always wondered how the equation for AGE production goes, Heat vs Time? Which method would be superior: high pressure cooking, higher temperature, less time or low pressure cooking, lower temperature, takes more time (?).
English steak with a brown crust, but the rest is raw or thoroughly well done meat, but no crust? (I know steak tartare would be the best option, no AGEs at all)
How about cold smoked fish and meat (15-25°C)? Is the smoke unhealthy?
Maybe that study could answer some of the questions, anyone access to it? "AGEs present in all food categories was related to cooking temperature, length of cooking time, and presence of moisture. Broiling (225 degrees C) and frying (177 degrees C) resulted in the highest levels of AGEs, followed by roasting (177 degrees C) and boiling (100 degrees C)" [1]

Anousenka, you could be a Vegan six days a week, and throw a steak on the grill on the Sabbath day. OK by me. I'm not terrifically impressed with the supposed health benefits of Veganism, but the raw (or at least low heat) idea really does have merit. The less inflammatory exogenous AGEs you consume, the better.

Drop the veganism, drop the the raw part. Just concentrate on eating everything raw that you can and as many veggies as possible - to stay as healthy as possible - like Niner advised. This will fit the bill well enough, you don't need to restrict your diet to the extreme. For instance, some veggies  must be cooked for better digestion.
As far as my understanding of AGEs is concerend, you don't have to eat raw all the time. AGEs don’t seem to become a problem until renal function and other functions decline with age: “…AGER1 can respond to and effectively handle fluctuations in AGE load in vivo if the net OS baseline does not exceed a certain threshold.” [2]

Niner is strangely attracted to unconventional femalesies. FWIW.

That's why I asked for pics!

[1] Goldberg et al. Advanced glycoxidation end products in commonly consumed foods. J Am Diet Assoc. 2004 Aug;104(8):1287-91. Division of Experimental Diabetes and Aging, Department of Geriatrics, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, NY 10029, USA.
[2]“Several immunoassay-based tests have established higher levels of common AGEs, such as εN-carboxymethyl-lysine (CML) or methylglyoxal (MG) in older persons who are otherwise healthy” http://hormones.gr/p...ew.php?c_id=215

Edited by kismet, 31 August 2008 - 12:40 PM.

[Kisya]

Anousenka would assume that cooking something for a long time at a very low heat would be bettersies. Anousenka realises that some vegetables must be cooked, heehee. She just won't eat those, heehee.

Anousenka thought you asked for pictures of her being beaten up by the football teamsie? That was strange... *-*

♥ Anousenka ♥

[krillin]

If we ask too many women for pics, Imminst will have as much trouble recruiting them as these guys do.

[CobaltThoriumG]

If we ask too many women for pics, Imminst will have as much trouble recruiting them as these guys do.

If this is what raw looks like, I may have to give it another look.

[forever freedom]

This thread makes me miss Elijah3

haha true. and i'm impressed that the "true" is sincere..


anyway, here's a linksie with a lot of info on rawsie food diet.

http://www.stevepavl.../raw-food-diet/

Edited by sam988, 03 September 2008 - 04:16 AM.

[Kisya]

This thread makes me miss Elijah3

haha true. and i'm impressed that the "true" is sincere..


anyway, here's a linksie with a lot of info on rawsie food diet.

http://www.stevepavl.../raw-food-diet/

That guy seems to have done the Raw Vegan nutrition programme incorrectly :s He wasn't using any sea salt, and he wasn't consuming enough fat... He wasn't even taking supplements! No wonder he quit! It's very important to make sure that all nutrients and thingies are encompassed in the nutrition programmesie ^-^

♥ Anousenka ♥

[REGIMEN]

http://www.acupunctu...ion/vegdiet.htm

"An area where many vegetarians seem to get in trouble is the nature of the foods they are eating.
With no regard or understanding to their own state of body tendencies, many uphold a cold raw foods diet as the healthy way to go.
Many women decide to try to loose weight by eating only cold salads, and thereby destroy the digestive fire, and the spleen's strength in the process.
Another example is vegetarians who only eat fish, which by nature is a cooling food and depletes the internal warmth."

If you know which foods are Warming and Cooling you could pull off Veganism...but not Raw Veganism.
Raw Veganism is fine for a short period of time to help people with Excess diseases such as obesity and alcoholism. Other than that raw foods are fine at around 5-15% of your diet.

Cooking is part of the digestion process. You'll dry up and turn into a waspy nattering bitch that works out 80 minutes everyday to keep warm if you eat 100% raw foods for a prolonged period.

Tips if you 'must' be vegan:
http://deepesthealth...ine-philosophy/

Edited by REGIMEN, 15 September 2008 - 06:28 AM.

[Kisya]

Now, that's just silly! For that mattersie, Anousenka is a bit wary about that individual's spelling of the word "lose" in this sentence, "Many women decide to try to *loose* weight by eating only cold salads..."

Anywaysies, Anousenka will keep this thread updated with her progress ^-^

♥ Anousenka ♥

Edited by Anousenka, 22 September 2008 - 11:32 PM.

[mitkat]

Now, that's just silly! For that mattersie, Anousenka is a bit wary about that individual's spelling of the word "lose" in this sentence, "Many women decide to try to *loose* weight by eating only cold salads..."

Anywaysies, Anousenka will keep this thread updated with her progress ^-^

♥ Anousenka ♥

What exactly is silly about it? Surely you aren't discounting everything said due to a spelling mistake?

[wydell]

Now, that's just silly! For that mattersie, Anousenka is a bit wary about that individual's spelling of the word "lose" in this sentence, "Many women decide to try to *loose* weight by eating only cold salads..."

Anywaysies, Anousenka will keep this thread updated with her progress ^-^

♥ Anousenka ♥

What exactly is silly about it? Surely you aren't discounting everything said due to a spelling mistake?

Yes, we all know that correct spellingsies is real important to Anousenka

[niner]

What exactly is silly about it? Surely you aren't discounting everything said due to a spelling mistake?

Well, there's the use of the terms "warming" and "cooling" in what are surely non-thermodynamic contexts. Not to mention "digestive fire". Yeah, I know, TCM... But when you redefine terms that are widely used with very different definitions, then talk to people who aren't steeped in your jargon, you sound like a nut.

[mitkat]

What exactly is silly about it? Surely you aren't discounting everything said due to a spelling mistake?

Well, there's the use of the terms "warming" and "cooling" in what are surely non-thermodynamic contexts. Not to mention "digestive fire". Yeah, I know, TCM... But when you redefine terms that are widely used with very different definitions, then talk to people who aren't steeped in your jargon, you sound like a nut.

I know practically nothing about TCM except for a few plants involved. I assume many of us here don't, but come on - warming, cooling, and digestive fire?! Are these phrases so obscure that you can't instantly relate to them and apply them to your body? Are they unbelievable because they are fairly basic phrases and aren't hypertechnical termsies? There's your silliness. The greater issue here is the OP is disregarding information against a raw vegan diet.

[s123]

As far as my understanding of AGEs is concerend, you don't have to eat raw all the time. AGEs don’t seem to become a problem until renal function and other functions decline with age: “…AGER1 can respond to and effectively handle fluctuations in AGE load in vivo if the net OS baseline does not exceed a certain threshold.” [2]

And why do AGE restriction diets lengthen the lifespan? From what I know the exogenous AGEs do more than just impair your renal function.

Diet-derived AGE are major contributors to the total body AGE pool.

Source: Restriction of Dietary Glycotoxins Reduces Excessive Advanced Glycation End Products in Renal Failure Patients; J Am Soc Nephrol 14:728-731, 2003

It looks plausible that some portion of the health and longevity benefits of calorie restriction stem from a reduction in the intake of dietary advanced glycation end products (AGEs). AGEs are created in the body as a
metabolic side-effect, but also found in your food: "Increased oxidative stress (OS) underlies many chronic diseases prevalent in aging. Data in humans confirm the hypothesis that [AGEs] and other oxidants derived from
the diet may be major contributors to increased OS in normal adults as well as those with diabetes mellitus or kidney failure. Mice fed a diet with a lowered (approximately 50%) content of AGEs or a typical calorie-restricted (CR) diet, accumulated a smaller amount of AGEs [and] did not have increased oxidant stress or cardiac or kidney fibrosis with aging. However, the findings in mice fed a CR diet with an increased content of AGEs resembled those in mice fed a nonrestricted diet that had the usual higher content of AGEs. Thus, there was an inverse correlation between the dietary AGE content, [oxidative stress], organ damage, and life span."

Source: PMID: 18448795

[REGIMEN]

Here's a misspelled word so you can skip my whole post: frijid.

Some more hoodoo hokum with terms that are apparently as 'ambiguous' as the phrase "Bush doctrine" around here:

http://deepesthealth...an-or-not-diet/

*****Feel free to click my name at left to access a number of TCM links I've compiled on my profile page.

TCM and Five Elements terms actually make it easier for laypersons to understand the internal workings of their very own body and how to choose the proper food for their at-the-moment constitution. It would take little time, comparable to internet researching every single food like some do, to learn Five Elements theory for diet choices and even further the benefit of learning a way to spot imbalances in yourself from common symptoms.

Cooking is part of the digestion process; get used to it.

Edited by REGIMEN, 03 October 2008 - 06:36 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

shoot, I wish people would stick to the thread topic and not, say--ask women for pictures. If you want pics, I'd send you pictures of roller girls beating up football players


Anousenka--I love your posting , and I have a dear friend who has been extreme raw vegan for over a decade, she is superbly healthy. She eats a lot of avocado, along with meat--because it is hard to get enough fats on a raw vegan diet. (She also will not drive in a car, or do anything that will harm the environment...) I tried a raw vegan diet for about 5 months when I lived in Eugene Or, and I had a raw foods restaurant to go to (they had pasta, pizza--all sorts of things made completely from raw foods, like thin sweet potato shreds for the "pasta" and sauces made of blended nuts, herbs, veggies etc. --the place was amazing!) So Anousenka, I hope you stick around and share how you eat. I'm not on raw food now, but I cook very lightly, always in water--and my kids love blue rare meat (order it when we go out ) all our food at home is nearly raw

[Shannon Vyff]

PS, are you twelve? I have a twelve year old--she is into anime, I'll have to let her check out your profile

[niner]

What exactly is silly about it? Surely you aren't discounting everything said due to a spelling mistake?

Well, there's the use of the terms "warming" and "cooling" in what are surely non-thermodynamic contexts. Not to mention "digestive fire". Yeah, I know, TCM... But when you redefine terms that are widely used with very different definitions, then talk to people who aren't steeped in your jargon, you sound like a nut.

I know practically nothing about TCM except for a few plants involved. I assume many of us here don't, but come on - warming, cooling, and digestive fire?! Are these phrases so obscure that you can't instantly relate to them and apply them to your body? Are they unbelievable because they are fairly basic phrases and aren't hypertechnical termsies? There's your silliness. The greater issue here is the OP is disregarding information against a raw vegan diet.

Are warming and cooling just temperature terms, or do they relate to mental state? Digestive fire... Is that heartburn, or is it oxidative metabolism? Or is there an actual flame, perhaps borne by elves, somewhere in your GI tract? The terms have various meanings, both colloquial and technical, in the English language. In TCM, (as translated into English, which may be much of the problem) they apparently are part of some large, self-consistent theoretical framework. Without being steeped in the theory, we're left to apply whatever meaning we already possess or can establish to these terms. It's the same problem with Chi... there just isn't anything that I understand to which I can map such a thing. Most Americans hear words they think they know the meaning of, but if we can't figure out a sensible mapping, well, it sounds kind of nutty. I'm not saying TCM is nuts; I really think it contains useful knowledge. It just sounds nutty (to me, anyway, and probably a lot of other people) when people throw around terms(ies!) without defining them.

Why am I being such a nerd? Not enuf droogzies, i fear. (or too many)

[niner]

If you want pics, I'd send you pictures of roller girls beating up football players

What are they wearing?

[Shannon Vyff]

We wear sexy outfits of course! All sorts and styles, tough or candy cute.

[REGIMEN]

What exactly is silly about it? Surely you aren't discounting everything said due to a spelling mistake?

Well, there's the use of the terms "warming" and "cooling" in what are surely non-thermodynamic contexts. Not to mention "digestive fire". Yeah, I know, TCM... But when you redefine terms that are widely used with very different definitions, then talk to people who aren't steeped in your jargon, you sound like a nut.

I know practically nothing about TCM except for a few plants involved. I assume many of us here don't, but come on - warming, cooling, and digestive fire?! Are these phrases so obscure that you can't instantly relate to them and apply them to your body? Are they unbelievable because they are fairly basic phrases and aren't hypertechnical termsies? There's your silliness. The greater issue here is the OP is disregarding information against a raw vegan diet.

Are warming and cooling just temperature terms, or do they relate to mental state? Digestive fire... Is that heartburn, or is it oxidative metabolism? Or is there an actual flame, perhaps borne by elves, somewhere in your GI tract? The terms have various meanings, both colloquial and technical, in the English language. In TCM, (as translated into English, which may be much of the problem) they apparently are part of some large, self-consistent theoretical framework. Without being steeped in the theory, we're left to apply whatever meaning we already possess or can establish to these terms. It's the same problem with Chi... there just isn't anything that I understand to which I can map such a thing. Most Americans hear words they think they know the meaning of, but if we can't figure out a sensible mapping, well, it sounds kind of nutty. I'm not saying TCM is nuts; I really think it contains useful knowledge. It just sounds nutty (to me, anyway, and probably a lot of other people) when people throw around terms(ies!) without defining them.

Why am I being such a nerd? Not enuf droogzies, i fear. (or too many)

Like I've said, take a look through the links in my profile page for definitions and fundamental concepts. I can give advice for some things but I can't possibly distill a year's worth of firsthand experience through practice and study to fully elucidate every detail and definition every time I post. And so I use the "termsies".

I know...nearly impossible to convert anyone here so committed to putting Pubmed findings to memory. I think some, even here, may appreciate the evolution of my longterm health trajectory beginning with nootropic & supplement regimens even if it "regressed" into something "primitive".

+++++++++++

Here's a few very short videos related to this thread:
http://www.expertvil...ting-spleen.htm

+++++++++++

Shannon mentions a friends who has practiced a raw food diet longterm. There are several issues making this "more possible" for certain individuals than others such as Five Element congenital disposition (having either/both a strong Fire and Earth category), chewing practices (thorough mastication and mixing this with adequate amounts of saliva before introduction into the stomach), activity level (weight-lifting and aerobic exercise vs a sedentary lifestyle vs. adequate movement without "exercise"; each has their pros/cons relating to flow/stagnation and an individual's states of Qi, Jing, and Shen), and the particular ingredients used (every single food has different effectual properties; proper *food combining* is essential to good health and digestion; the level of processing of each ingredient can impart different effects ie: steamed-rolled oats vs. steel cut oats; raw smoked salmon vs. sushi-grade salmon vs. citrus-marinated salmon). It's possible to eat raw if you properly mix based on food-energetics (Warming/Cooling; Drying/Moistening; Sour/Bitter/Sweet/Pungent/Salty) but you'll be much more efficient if you even just lightly steam leafy vegetables and thinly sliced root vegetables as described one of th elinks I posted in this thread. Why not take the advantage where you can get it instead of arbitrary "pure practice" of an extreme -word-...in this case the all enveloping "Raw" in its modification of "diet". Saving energy by not using a stove can't possibly be that much of a ego boost, either...

Speaking of staying on topic:
Where ARE those lacy birthday dress pics you promised, Anousenka?

Edited by REGIMEN, 05 October 2008 - 08:41 PM.

[Healthy Skeptic]

Some short points for those unfamiliar with TCM:
There are five elements: Water, Wood, Fire, Metal, and Earth. These elements are associated with various meridians, body parts, seasons, moods, foods, senses, and so forth. There is an enormous list of associations for each element. Fire is associated with the heart for example, so someone with a heart problem might be diagnosed as having a an imbalance of Fire, which would be treated with the appropriate herbal prescription, diet change, acupuncture treatment, etc.

There are six pernicious influences which each have an elemental association and sets of symptoms: Wind, Heat, Cold, Dampness, Dryness, and Summer Heat. Another important element of TCM is The Three Treasures: Shen, Chi, and Jing. As far as science knows, these energies do not exist and they can not be measured.

Anyway, despite some successes in very specific areas(back pain, nausea) I'm not a fan of TCM or its theories. People in China who used TCM as a primary form of medicine had an extremely grim outlook in terms of life span and health. When TCM was temporarily banned from mainland China and Western medicine was forcibly integrated into healthcare the average life span shot up by over 30 years. It may be ancient, but as far as I can tell it's never really proven itself. Also, however philosophical or non-religious Five Element theory is, it still requires faith in supernatural energies.

On the other hand, I don't think TCM is actually harmful, especially when it comes to diet. No TCM practitioner is going to prescribe you a TV dinner and they will discourage you from overindulging in any particular food. It's hard to go wrong on a balanced diet largely consisting of fruits, vegetables, legumes, nuts, and herbs.

Edited by Healthy Skeptic, 06 October 2008 - 05:03 AM.

[Kisya]

Anousenka still hasn't begun her Raw Vegan nutrition programme, yetsies :x It's been a bit difficult to get startedsies! Anousenka will make a little food diarysie, and post a link to it, here when she has completed a solid weekie of Raw Foods ^-^

Thank you, Shannon ^-^ Anousenka is Eternally Twelve, so, she will continue to be Twelve years oldsies Forever ^-^

♥ Anousenka ♥

Edited by Anousenka, 07 October 2008 - 02:34 AM.

[Agade]

There also is an alternative medicine system called Ayurveda, it warns against too much raw food, partly because it's bad for digestion. It has not much to do with science, but the system is thousands of years old, so there may be some truth in it. Some ideas of Ayurveda are similar to veganism, for example meat is 'tamas' (bad for you). You could try Ayurvedic recipes.

Mercola has good information about juicing on his site. However, I tried it and it made me throw up.
http://www.mercola.c...lan/juicing.htm

[Kisya]

Speaking of staying on topic:
Where ARE those lacy birthday dress pics you promised, Anousenka?

...what?!


♥ Anousenka ♥