565 replies to this topic

[inawe]

The AIP people have Sarah Palin husband's membership at hand. They are confident they can find hers.
The former AIP Secretary, Lynette Clark, a freelance gold miner who wants Alaska to become an independent nation and has this to say about the McCain campaign's damage control efforts:
"This is like a cat covering up crap in its litter box."
And I already posted




I'm aware that there are some who are very happy with Sarah Palin because she's a Christian fundamentalist, anti-abortion, anti-gay, pro guns, creationists and the hell with everything else. These people don't care whatever else she can be, including Alaskan-secessionist.
For the good of the country (and the world) I just hope most citizens are not like that.

I don't think its up to any of us to decide what other citizens---whether of the US and especially the rest of the world---- ought to be like even if we don't agree with them on certain issues like those mentioned above. You seem to think everybody else should be like you/us for some strange reason. That is quite dangerous and reminds me of GWB's mentality: your either with us or against us.

As far as Palin is concerned, everything you've mentioned so far reinforces the whole McCain/Palin ticket even further.

"Sarah"'s baby is really Bristol's! And Bristol got pregnant by an eighth-grader! And Sarah was a member of a secessionist political party! And a Pat Buchanan supporter! And she slashed funding for teen pregnancy shelters! etc.......

I have yet to hear a single reason why an Obama/Biden ticket is any better?

Quite frankly, I find both tickets to be full of shit. The RNC couldn't be more different than the DNC. McCain is being portrayed as a man of principle and many Americans will eat up the whole "Country First" thing. On the other side Obama keeps talking about one nation, change--- what is change?--- and more empty general rhetoric that doesn't add any productivity to the political dialogue.

The only difference I see is that with Republicans its so clear as day while the Democrats try so desperately to convince us otherwise.What a pathetic political process we have to deal with.

I wrote I hope, not that I'll decide for anybody else.
At another thread, months ago, I strongly criticized the relation of Obama with Wright. But this is a thread about McCain picking Palin as VP. I'm trying to restrict myself to that issue.
I have to confess I'm not smart enough to understand what the rest of your post is about.

[mike250]

The AIP people have Sarah Palin husband's membership at hand. They are confident they can find hers.
The former AIP Secretary, Lynette Clark, a freelance gold miner who wants Alaska to become an independent nation and has this to say about the McCain campaign's damage control efforts:
"This is like a cat covering up crap in its litter box."
And I already posted




I'm aware that there are some who are very happy with Sarah Palin because she's a Christian fundamentalist, anti-abortion, anti-gay, pro guns, creationists and the hell with everything else. These people don't care whatever else she can be, including Alaskan-secessionist.
For the good of the country (and the world) I just hope most citizens are not like that.

I don't think its up to any of us to decide what other citizens---whether of the US and especially the rest of the world---- ought to be like even if we don't agree with them on certain issues like those mentioned above. You seem to think everybody else should be like you/us for some strange reason. That is quite dangerous and reminds me of GWB's mentality: your either with us or against us.

As far as Palin is concerned, everything you've mentioned so far reinforces the whole McCain/Palin ticket even further.

"Sarah"'s baby is really Bristol's! And Bristol got pregnant by an eighth-grader! And Sarah was a member of a secessionist political party! And a Pat Buchanan supporter! And she slashed funding for teen pregnancy shelters! etc.......

I have yet to hear a single reason why an Obama/Biden ticket is any better?

Quite frankly, I find both tickets to be full of shit. The RNC couldn't be more different than the DNC. McCain is being portrayed as a man of principle and many Americans will eat up the whole "Country First" thing. On the other side Obama keeps talking about one nation, change--- what is change?--- and more empty general rhetoric that doesn't add any productivity to the political dialogue.

The only difference I see is that with Republicans its so clear as day while the Democrats try so desperately to convince us otherwise.What a pathetic political process we have to deal with.

I wrote I hope, not that I'll decide for anybody else.
At another thread, months ago, I strongly criticized the relation of Obama with Wright. But this is a thread about McCain picking Palin as VP. I'm trying to restrict myself to that issue.
I have to confess I'm not smart enough to understand what the rest of your post is about.

I'm sorry if I came off as harsh. Its just that both parties come off as hypocrites (the Democrats try to convince us otherwise and the Republicans are clearly full of it) and I needed to get this off my chest.

My point is that all this innuendo over Palin and the breathless reporting of her unmarried daughter's pregnancy is all the more obscene given that the democrats have been crying "non-issue" over these very types of thing for years ..... and rightly so, "being nobody else's business", etc....

It simply reinforces the McCain/Palin ticket. It is not productive and doesn't help with more important matters.

Why don't you make a comparison and more importantly discuss the critical issues: civil liberties, foreign policy, healthcare, economy, tax etc.... and the position of both parties on them.

Edited by mike250, 03 September 2008 - 08:50 PM.

[TianZi]

Watch for more on the following two Palin issues in the days to come: 1. AIP and 2. her church.

1. The AIP's founder says she was a member of the AIP before she became mayor of Wasillia, and she has regularly given speeches at their conventions. However, it's not clear she was ever a member of the AIP, based on voter registration information produced by the McCain campaign. Her husband was an AIP member for 7 years, until 2002.

Joe Vogler, the AIP's founder, made the following comments in 1991:

"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government," Vogler said in the interview, in which he talked extensively about his desire for Alaskan secession, the key goal of the AIP.

"And I won't be buried under their damn flag," Vogler continued in the interview, which also touched on his disappointment with the American judicial system. "I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home."

2. Sarah's church

There are recordings of her pastor saying things such as "all critics of President Bush are damned and shall burn in the fires of hell forever". etc. etc. etc. There seem to be no end to the incredibly offensive, bizarre things this man has said; find them for yourself. Just two days ago, at a sermon Sarah Palin attended, he apparently said that Hitler's extermination of the Jews was God's retribution against the Jews for turning their backs on Jesus. You should be able to find a link to this. This will receive great play in the MSM in the weeks to come due to the attention previously focused on Obama's former minister, Rev. Wright (as will the rantings of Joe Vogler, for similar reasons).

Edited by TianZi, 03 September 2008 - 08:50 PM.

[mike250]

Watch for more on the following two Palin issues in the days to come: 1. AIP and 2. her church.

1. The AIP's founder says she was a member of the AIP before she became mayor of Wasillia, and she has regularly given speeches at their conventions. However, it's not clear she was ever a member of the AIP, based on voter registration information produced by the McCain campaign. Her husband was an AIP member for 7 years, until 2002.

Joe Vogler, the AIP's founder, made the following comments in 1991:

"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government," Vogler said in the interview, in which he talked extensively about his desire for Alaskan secession, the key goal of the AIP.

"And I won't be buried under their damn flag," Vogler continued in the interview, which also touched on his disappointment with the American judicial system. "I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home."

2. Sarah's church

There are recordings of her pastor saying things such as "all critics of President Bush are damned and shall burn in the fires of hell forever". etc. etc. etc. There seem to be no end to the incredibly offensive, bizarre things this man has said; find them for yourself. Just two days ago, at a sermon Sarah Palin attended, he apparently said that Hitler's extermination of the Jews was God's retribution against the Jews for turning their backs on Jesus. You should be able to find a link to this. This will receive great play in the MSM in the weeks to come due to the attention previously focused on Obama's former minister, Rev. Wright (as will the rantings of Joe Vogler, for similar reasons).

would that pastor be John Hagee by any chance? I recall his mind-boggling remarks on various issues. But then considering what Louis Farakhan or Rev. Wright has said it doesn't come as very surprising. What is surprising is why a guy like Lieberman would support Hagee.

Edited by mike250, 03 September 2008 - 09:10 PM.

[Connor MacLeod]

Turns out that Sarah Palin and her husband were members of the Alaska Independence Party (AIP). A party advocating for the secession of Alaska from the rest of the USA. WOW!

As I recall Barack Obama was a 20+ year member of a black liberation theology racist church until about 3 months ago - this not something back in the 90's. If those people at Barack's church aren't openly calling for a seperate black nation (unlike Louis Farakhann and the rest of their friends in the Nation of Islam), it is only because they are too comfortable sucking at the U.S. Federal government's tit.

[inawe]

Turns out that Sarah Palin and her husband were members of the Alaska Independence Party (AIP). A party advocating for the secession of Alaska from the rest of the USA. WOW!

As I recall Barack Obama was a 20+ year member of a black liberation theology racist church until about 3 months ago - this not something back in the 90's. If those people at Barack's church aren't openly calling for a seperate black nation (unlike Louis Farakhann and the rest of their friends in the Nation of Islam), it is only because they are too comfortable sucking at the U.S. Federal government's tit.

Are you unable to understand that this thread is about "McCain picks Palin as VP"?

[Athanasios]

Are you unable to understand that this thread is about "McCain picks Palin as VP"?

Surely, the fact that many criticisms of Palin are also criticisms of Obama has some ground in this topic. My guess is that McCain and company knew of all or many of these 'problem areas' of Palin and found that they couldn't be used by Obama's campaign effectively without opening themselves up to criticism.

[Connor MacLeod]

Turns out that Sarah Palin and her husband were members of the Alaska Independence Party (AIP). A party advocating for the secession of Alaska from the rest of the USA. WOW!

As I recall Barack Obama was a 20+ year member of a black liberation theology racist church until about 3 months ago - this not something back in the 90's. If those people at Barack's church aren't openly calling for a seperate black nation (unlike Louis Farakhann and the rest of their friends in the Nation of Islam), it is only because they are too comfortable sucking at the U.S. Federal government's tit.

Are you unable to understand that this thread is about "McCain picks Palin as VP"?

Yes, I think I understand that. But what is the point of discussing the Palin VP pick in the first place? I'm pretty sure it is because there is a presidential election coming up and she is the VP candidate of one of two tickets which have any chance at all of winning. In light of this it seems entirely reasonable to contrast her weaknesses and strengths with those of the others party's candidates. As far as I'm concerned, when comparing Palin's alleged short-time assocation in the mid-90's with AIP and Obama very long-term association with TUCC up until only 3 months ago, Obama is definitely comes out looking worse. At least that's my view as a typical white person.

[inawe]

Are you unable to understand that this thread is about "McCain picks Palin as VP"?

Surely, the fact that many criticisms of Palin are also criticisms of Obama has some ground in this topic. My guess is that McCain and company knew of all or many of these 'problem areas' of Palin and found that they couldn't be used by Obama's campaign effectively without opening themselves up to criticism.

The wright/Obama connection was already beaten to death in other threads on this forum. It would be very sad if the best argument for one ticket is that the other is as bad.
Since you, Navigator, are willing to go OT I'll repeat that I did criticized Wright and his past connection with Obama does worry me. I'm more worried however, by the relation of McCain with Phil Grahm, his main economic advisor.

[Connor MacLeod]

The wright/Obama connection was already beaten to death in other threads on this forum.

Perhaps, but the comparison is relevant and is therefore a legitimate topic of discussion in this thread. If the AIP thing gains traction in the MSM then you can also expect to see Reverend Wright in the news once again as well. In my view, that comparison is a definite loser for Obama.

It would be very sad if the best argument for one ticket is that the other is as bad.

The best argument for voting McCain/Palin in 2008 is the desirability of having a divided Washington - that trumps all others, including even the vast differences between McCain and Obama in terms of character and experience. Of course a similar argument favoring a vote for Obama/Biden would hold if it were looking likely that the Republicans were going to have a majority in both houses of congress.

[niner]

Niner, if you believe what you just said you're really out of touch with hard core liberals, and feminists, but that's OK with me. You're starting to sound like a hard core Republican.

Biknut, you're starting to figure me out. I have a conservative streak, but I'm rational. I believe in personal responsibility. It's a rare child who can have a baby while still being a child herself, then raise that kid decently without sponging off of others.

The girl said she's going marry the father, what more do you want her to do?

My problem is not with the girl, it's with her mother who has thrust her into the national spotlight, and with the McCain campaign that either knew about this and went with Palin anyway, or didn't know. Either way it's bad.

Remember when algore's son got arrested for drugs when he was running for president? What does that say about algore? I say nothing, because it wasn't algore, but I guess you would say algore is a lousy father because his kid does drugs.

No, I wouldn't. Most recreational drugs don't harm others, and some don't even harm their users. Gore isn't an anti-drug nut, so I don't see the hypocrisy there. Now georgewbush getting arrested for gettin' high, that's a different issue.

[TianZi]

Watch for more on the following two Palin issues in the days to come: 1. AIP and 2. her church.

1. The AIP's founder says she was a member of the AIP before she became mayor of Wasillia, and she has regularly given speeches at their conventions. However, it's not clear she was ever a member of the AIP, based on voter registration information produced by the McCain campaign. Her husband was an AIP member for 7 years, until 2002.

Joe Vogler, the AIP's founder, made the following comments in 1991:

"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government," Vogler said in the interview, in which he talked extensively about his desire for Alaskan secession, the key goal of the AIP.

"And I won't be buried under their damn flag," Vogler continued in the interview, which also touched on his disappointment with the American judicial system. "I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home."

2. Sarah's church

There are recordings of her pastor saying things such as "all critics of President Bush are damned and shall burn in the fires of hell forever". etc. etc. etc. There seem to be no end to the incredibly offensive, bizarre things this man has said; find them for yourself. Just two days ago, at a sermon Sarah Palin attended, he apparently said that Hitler's extermination of the Jews was God's retribution against the Jews for turning their backs on Jesus. You should be able to find a link to this. This will receive great play in the MSM in the weeks to come due to the attention previously focused on Obama's former minister, Rev. Wright (as will the rantings of Joe Vogler, for similar reasons).

would that pastor be John Hagee by any chance? I recall his mind-boggling remarks on various issues. But then considering what Louis Farakhan or Rev. Wright has said it doesn't come as very surprising. What is surprising is why a guy like Lieberman would support Hagee.

No, I'm talking about Ed Kalnins, the senior pastor of the Wasilla Assembly of God.

[niner]

On a much-viewed recent YouTube, footage shows Palin loosening off a few rounds from an automatic rifle while visiting troops in Kuwait. An impressed US army instructor is heard telling her: “You’re pretty much hitting it dead centre.”

Dick Cheney is pretty handy with a shotgun, too. Is this a requirement for Republican VPs?

[niner]

Bearing a child out of wedlock makes a mockery of the nuclear family, mankind's most fundamental institution.

Bert and Ernie are gay?! Connor, you come up with the best pictures.

What I'm concerned about is children being born into families that can financially and emotionally provide for them. I don't really care all that much about the gender of the parents. While I agree that a healthy hetero relationship is going to provide the best model for most kids, a healthy gay relationship is probably preferable to a great many hetero couples who end up in divorce court.

So, are you in favor of teen pregnancy? Looks like that's the new Republican position.

[Heliotrope]

haha i've even heard rumors that the Down-syndromed-baby Trig is also bristol palin's son and actually Sarah's grandson. almost impossibility given the month differences, looks like some ppl can't do the math, unless the palins lied about Trig's age and sarah palin faked a pregnancy so yeah already a grandma, though pretty young for a grandma, reminds me of the movie 40 Year Old Virgin, where there's a hot grandma in it.

[TianZi]

As far as Rev. Wright goes, certain of his comments are not defensible. Others can be better understood in the context of the entirety of a particular sermon, or his life in general.

The claims he made with absolute certainty that AIDS was spread by the US government is highly bizarre and preposterous based on current evidence. I can, however, appreciate how what was done in Tuskegee to blacks could make a black person more likely to believe this (especially with Wright spouting off false information about what happened at Tuskegee; it wasn't that blacks were intentionally infected with syphillis but other things that made that experiment nefarious). And of course how blacks have historically been treated in the US would naturally make blacks more suspicious of US government conduct, especially in decades past.

But that wasn't really the remark that got him, and by extension Obama, in trouble. It was the "God Damn America" remarks in a sermon of his.

If you have read that sermon in its entirety, and reflect on the common life experiences of a black man of Wright's age, those comments are more understandable. As an example, he said "God damn America for treating its citizens as less than human." He's right, in a historical sense, that the USA has treated blacks as "less than human" through most of its history, particularly in the South, and that the God he believes in would not bless America for that, but would condemn it. In his lifetime, blacks were still treated as less than human by various state governments--witness the anti-miscegenation laws fully enforced and in effect in at least 18 states until almost 1970 making it a felony offense for a Caucasian to marry a person of color.

The "God damn America for treating its citizens as less than human" remark was immediately preceded by this:

"And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton fields, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into position of hopelessness and helplessness."

Calling Wright a "racist" is a bit of a stretch. In the same "God damn America" speech, he said this:

"All oppressors are not white. Turn to your neighbor and say that oppressors come in all colors." He then pointed out that some of the first "oppressors" were African, the ancient Egyptians. He then went back to the Bible and spoke about the changing of the kings in Babylonia, and said the following in that context: "Prior to Abraham Lincoln, the government in this country said it was legal to hold Africans in slavery for perpetuity.. when Lincoln got in office, the government changed. Prior to Harry Truman's office, the military was segregated. But governments change. ... under Clinton, we had an intelligent friend in the White House. Oh but governments change."

These aren't the remarks of a "racist", if by "racist" you mean a person holding an irrational hatred of persons of another race. If Wright held such views, he's be unlikely to praise white men like Lincoln, Truman, and Bill Clinton.


****

My advice to intelligent conservatives who do not want to see Obama elected is to drop the criticisms of Wright, since if we dig deep enough, we can find the ministers of many Republican politicians saying even more outrageous things (like Palin's). We shouldn't jump to condemn people based on remarks made by their ministers unless they personally affirm those beliefs. I'm confident Palin doesn't embrace the idea that Hitler was doing God's work in massacring the Jews. Obama repudiated and rejected Wright's more offensive comments. He dropped out of his church. Wright is a non-issue.

For some reason, the Republican talking points memos haven't yet focused much attention on Obama's relationship with Tony Rezko. Now THAT is something worth examining. As an Obama supporter, it is the one thing about him that truly worries me. Either the Republicans are saving Rezko for later in the election cycle for maximum damage, or McCain also has Rezko-like skeletons in his closet.

[Connor MacLeod]

Bert and Ernie are gay?!

Yes. In retrospect it is all too obvious, isn't it?

Connor, you come up with the best pictures.

Thanks! I thought it was pretty funny too!

[niner]

Bert and Ernie are gay?!

Yes. In retrospect it is all too obvious, isn't it?

Damn! Which of my heroes will be next?

[Connor MacLeod]

I think Govenor Palin gave a very solid speech tonight. Going after her family isn't going to play I think - too many Americans are going to identify with her and her family's experience. I know mine will. Also, I must say that the Palin family appears to have some very good genes - all very attractive people; that's another thing my family has in common with hers. And their youngest daughter is so unbelievably cute - enthusiastically waving at the crowd, etc. And I loved the way she was holding baby Trig and doting over him, at one point licking her hand and using that to pat down his hair - so very endearing (though she's going to be very embarassed by that video when she gets a little older!)

[biknut]

Biknut, you're starting to figure me out. I have a conservative streak, but I'm rational. I believe in personal responsibility.


My problem is not with the girl, it's with her mother who has thrust her into the national spotlight, and with the McCain campaign that either knew about this and went with Palin anyway, or didn't know. Either way it's bad.

Ok, I accept that, and nothing wrong with being for personal responsibility. So am I.


This is the thing. This woman seems gifted in some respects, same as Obama. If you don't believe me, try and get elected to something. So what's better for her child? Going back to Wasilla, and help her with the laundry, or going to the Whire House and trying to make the country better for her child, and grandchild? She may have a big impact. Which way benefits her daughter more?

[TianZi]

I want to make some corrections and additions to my comments on Palin's church attendance and her pastor.

1. I mentioned the Wasilla Assembly of God as Palin's church. She attends another one as well, the Wassila Bible Church. Assembly of God's chief pastor is Kalnins, he's the one with the outrageous sermons I'm aware of. Her pastor at the Bible Church is Larry Kroon.

2. Contrary to what I posted above, it apparently wasn't at Assembly of God that a pastor made the comments about God punishing Jews for rejecting Jesus, but rather at Bible Church. And the comment was made by a guest pastor, David Brickner. Although Brickner previously has said that Hitler was God's instrument of justice in punishing the Jews for their disbelief, at Wasilla Bible Church he didn't say that, but rather that terrorist attacks on Israelis are God's way of punishing Jews for their disbelief.

So same message, different words. Palin attended this sermon, and others over many years in which equally offensive things were said by the pastor at her other church, much like Obama was a member of Wright's church for many years. Hopefully a day will come when a candidate can get elected in the US to the office of President without having to be a practicing Christian, but that day is very distant.

[Connor MacLeod]

Bert and Ernie are gay?!

Yes. In retrospect it is all too obvious, isn't it?

Damn! Which of my heroes will be next?

???

[Connor MacLeod]

Palin attended this sermon, and others over many years in which equally offensive things were said by the pastor at her other church, much like Obama was a member of Wright's church for many years.

I hope the nutroots folks push this issue into the news because it invariably will bring Wright back into the news as well. Personally, I think Obama got off on that way too easy during the Democratic primaries and I'm looking forward to seeing more before the election. So yeah, let's see whose pastor - as well as the nature and depth of the relationship of the candidate with said pastor - is more troubling to Americans. Obama will be the loser on this issue.

[RighteousReason]

Video of the Palin speech at the RNC:

http://www.youdecide...nal-convention/

0wnage.

[TianZi]

Palin attended this sermon, and others over many years in which equally offensive things were said by the pastor at her other church, much like Obama was a member of Wright's church for many years.

I hope the nutroots folks push this issue into the news because it invariably will bring Wright back into the news as well. Personally, I think Obama got off on that way too easy during the Democratic primaries and I'm looking forward to seeing more before the election. So yeah, let's see whose pastor - as well as the nature and depth of the relationship of the candidate with said pastor - is more troubling to Americans. Obama will be the loser on this issue.

Why? Because Wright's black?

[jackinbox]

Video of the Palin speech at the RNC:

http://www.youdecide...nal-convention/

0wnage.

She did very well in her own style. A style well suited for Rove-ian politics. That must have been the most divisive speech I heard during this campaign so far. Quite different from the bipartisan image McCain tried to picture. She even attacked the press. That might be a mistake. The contrast between a speech like this and the "there is no blue states or red states, there is the United states" message of Obama's campaign is striking.

[Connor MacLeod]

And their youngest daughter is so unbelievably cute - enthusiastically waving at the crowd, etc. And I loved the way she was holding baby Trig and doting over him, at one point licking her hand and using that to pat down his hair - so very endearing (though she's going to be very embarassed by that video when she gets a little older!)

Ok, here's the video. All politics aside, this is incredibly adorable.

[Connor MacLeod]

Palin attended this sermon, and others over many years in which equally offensive things were said by the pastor at her other church, much like Obama was a member of Wright's church for many years.

I hope the nutroots folks push this issue into the news because it invariably will bring Wright back into the news as well. Personally, I think Obama got off on that way too easy during the Democratic primaries and I'm looking forward to seeing more before the election. So yeah, let's see whose pastor - as well as the nature and depth of the relationship of the candidate with said pastor - is more troubling to Americans. Obama will be the loser on this issue.

Why? Because Wright's black?

Jeez. You sure do like pulling that race card, don't you?

[mike250]

Video of the Palin speech at the RNC:

http://www.youdecide...nal-convention/

0wnage.

She did very well in her own style. A style well suited for Rove-ian politics. That must have been the most divisive speech I heard during this campaign so far. Quite different from the bipartisan image McCain tried to picture. She even attacked the press. That might be a mistake. The contrast between a speech like this and the "there is no blue states or red states, there is the United states" message of Obama's campaign is striking.

Obama's speeches are the way he always is. Always moving. Always inspirational. Always saying the “happy talk” and the “pretty speech” that we all want to hear and that his speech writers helped him spin.

Apart from that its simply empty rhetoric. He talks about one nation and change--- what is change?--- The idea of unity rings with a lot of voters but he does not address the important underlying issues. I like to hear Obama talk about resolving the healthcare crisis in America. It is a crisis. The fact is that the issue isn’t only “can we afford to pay for healthcare?”

If he would address these issues it would put him on a whole new level from where McCain is and then I will start to listen.

Otherwise his speeches, much like McCain's for that matter, don't help progress the political dialogue in this country and are just the same old stuff we've been hearing over and over again.

Edited by mike250, 04 September 2008 - 11:03 AM.

[mike250]