114 replies to this topic

[tunt01]

I take 2 Astral Fruit caps with chitosan in the AM and I take about 3 grams of 99% purity t-resveratrol at other times of the day, separate from the Astral Fruit. Per usual, I've noticed nothing in the way of effects from either. I've been taking Astral Fruit for several months (8?) and t-resveratrol for years.

I think there has been near unanimity that Astragaloside and Reservatrol are not to be taken together in the same 24 hr period. Reservatrol will stop astragaloside from working.

Edited by prophets, 10 April 2009 - 09:42 PM.

[2tender]

Prophets, thanks for posting that. Im wondering if Anthony can chime in and tell us his thoughts and whether he is taking Res. along with the Astra. Im wondering what if any protocol there is regarding the use of both.

[tunt01]

2tender:

Anthony made comments here: http://www.imminst.o...mp;#entry313688

Read his quoted statements (what he had done) and his message (what he plans to do).

I think it has to do with how long Resveratrol and other telomerase inhibitors are bioavailable after being ingested. I can't remember the exact figure, but someone I think posted that Resveratrol was bioavailable for about 24 hrs.

I considered doing telomerase/astragaloside ON for 2-3 days, then off for 2-3 days. A week on and a week off would probably be fine too.

I'm not comfortable w/ pure astrgaloside IV, it seems too much to me, I may do a little astragalus in the same intermittent/sporadic fashion.

regards,

pro

[HOTCells]

I think there has been near unanimity that Astragaloside and Reservatrol are not to be taken together in the same 24 hr period. Reservatrol will stop astragaloside from working.



Is there any evidence supporting the need for a 24 hour interval? I take 33 mgs of astragalus IV along with 2,000 mgs of standardized astragalus extract with Chitosan and Vit C. 4-6 hours before or after I ingest any known or suspected telomerase inhibitor, including Resveratrol. I Have noticed a few things and received my first normal liver panel in my entire life last week: could be placebo effect or the fact that I also starting taking IP-6 at the same time about 1 month ago.

[2tender]

Hotcells, what are the few things you've noticed? How did the liver panel come back?

[tunt01]

yea, im curious to know what your live panel was pre and post. also did you get a PSA or any other tests done?

i'm not sure if there is specific scientific evidence that says you should not take resveratrol or other telomerase inhibitors concurrently with it. i think it is just sort of assumed. i am not aware of any specific studies, but realize there are very few studies out there about astragaloside in the first place.

James Green, Terraternal, and a lot of the people who seem involved in these regimens suggest avoiding telomerase inhibitors. one guy who uses astragaloside/astragalus uses it concurrently w/ telomerase inhibitors (http://www.vincegiul...ngfirewalls.htm) and has still seen success w/ it as far as I can tell from his website.

wish i could offer you specific research, but it doesn't really seem to exist...

[HOTCells]

Hotcells, what are the few things you've noticed? How did the liver panel come back?

I didn't bother to get a copy of my liver panel, but everything was perfecto. I am F-ing shocked. Since I was a kid I always had crazy liver panels and had to get a biopsy to rule out a number of problems. I get a liver panel done every 6-months or so and none of them have turned out normal. Like I said, I also started taking about 3 grams of IP-6 around the same time as I started taking astragalus and Astragaloside IV, so I don't know which to blame. Other things I have noticed since taking Astragoloside IV (and IP-6)... My life-long toenail fungus seems to be going away (I never could get rid of it because my liver was never healthy enough for anti-fungal drugs), my finger/toe nails are growing muuuch faster and so is my hair, eye sight has improved (I can now see what my professors are writing on the board from the back of the room)... Could be a placebo effect.. either way I am not complaining, though I could do without the faster growing nails and hair.

[kenj]

I take astralfruit after morning exercises, empty stomach, - havent noted any change.

[2tender]

Kenj, are you taking resveratrol too?

[2tender]

Hotcells, please post your exact regimen. What brand of IP-6 are you taking and which vendor? Thanks

[Anthony_Loera]

Remember guys:

The difference is that regular astragalus does not usually have a high amount of Astragaloside IV. Here are the amounts of astragalus and the amount of astragaloside iv contained in these amounts:

If we calculate astragaloside iv amount in these astragulus dosages it is interesting that there is not very much in it:
9 grams of Astragalus = 14.4mg of Astragaloside IV
15 grams of Astragalus = 24mg of Astragaloside IV
30 grams of Astragalus = 48mg of Astragaloside IV
60 grams of Astragalus = 96mg of Astragaloside IV
120 grams of Astragalus = 192mg of Astragaloside IV

I just wanted to make sure you guys are taking enough Astragalus to make a difference.

Cheers
A

[kenj]

Kenj, are you taking resveratrol too?

Yeah, a gram in the evening or night.

[2tender]

Anthony, are you still rotating the Res. and Astra. ? Kenji, how long have been taking both that way?

[kenj]

2tender,

Just been taking astralfruit for 3 weeks or so, - I have taken resv late in the day for a few years.

[Hotpot]

Anthony, I'm almost ready to order another supply of astral fruit. How's the new formulation coming along? Have you incorporated chitosan into the capsules yet?
Cheers.

[hamishm00]

Anthony - have you got your results back yet?

[Roses]

astragalus root exerts impact much more than astragalocide

Link
HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2, two compounds extracted from Astragali Radix, delay replicative senescence of human diploid fibroblasts

Astragalus membranceus (Fish) Bunge Var. mongholicus (Bge) Hsiao is a Chinese herb considered as an effective traditional anti-ageing material. The two isomers of 4-hydroxy-5-hydroxymethyl-[1,3]dioxolan-2,6′-spirane-5′,6′,7′,8′-tetrahydro-indolizine-3′-carbaldehyde (HDTIC), HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2, were extracted from the herb. We chose them to investigate their effects on replicative senescence in vitro.In this study, we observed the effects of HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2 on morphology, replicative lifespan, and specific markers related to replicative senescence in human fetal lung diploid fibroblast (2BS cell). Results have shown that both the HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2 maintain non-senescent phenotype of 2BS cells even at late population doubling (PD) and increase cumulative population doublings (CPDs) by at least 15–20 PDs. The senescence-associated-galactosidase (SA-β-gal) positive cell rates of late PD cells grown from early PD in medium containing HDTIC, were much lower than that of late PD control cells, and similar to that of young cells. HDTIC also improved cell growth and proliferation and promoted the entry of 2BS cells from G₀ or G₁ phase to S-phase. In addition, the advanced glycation end product (AGE) levels of late PD cells grown from early PD in DMEM containing HDTIC decreased significantly compared with those of late PD control cells. Taken together, the results strongly suggest that both the HDTIC-1 and HDTIC-2 delay replicative senescence of 2BS cells, and indicate that the senescence-delaying effect of HDTIC appears to be due to its many biological properties including its potentials of proliferation improvement, inhibitory effect of AGE formation, and its antioxidant activity. The differences of optimum concentrations of HDTIC-1 (0.1 μM) and HDTIC-2 (1.0 μM) for delaying senescence also indicate that the structure of HDTIC may be very sensitive to its activity.

Remember guys:

The difference is that regular astragalus does not usually have a high amount of Astragaloside IV. Here are the amounts of astragalus and the amount of astragaloside iv contained in these amounts:

Cheers
A

[HOTCells]

Kenj, are you taking resveratrol too?

Morning

- 2,000 mgs Curcumin (Jarrows)
- 250mg Resveratrol w/tween (RevGenetics)
- 3 grams IP-6 (Jarrows)
- 100 mgs COQ10 (Nature's Way)

Afternoon
-1,500 mgs EPA/DHA (so about 5,000 mgs fish oil) (Country Life)
-400IU full spectrum Vitamin E (Swanson) w/ 8,000 IU Vitamin A (Swanson)
-4 Twin Lab brand D3 drops yeilding 4,000 IU D3 and 360 mcgs K2
-160 mg Benfotiamine (Doctor's Best)
-1,000 mg ALCAR (Country Life)
-50-100 mg K-RALA (Swanson)
-Alive Multi No iron added (Nature's Way)

A couple hours later..

-2,000 mg Vit C (NOW)
-33 mg Astragalus IV (RevGenetics)
-250 mg Chitosan (source Naturals)
-2,000-3,000 mg standardized Astragalus (Planetary Herbals)

-Before bed (about 9-10 hours later)

- 1 ,000 mgs Curcumin (Jarrows)
- 300 mgs Green Tea (NOW)
- 500 mg micronized resveratrol (RevGenetics) with lecithin (NOW)
- 300 mg standardized Grape seed (NOW)
- 2.5mg Melatonin (soruce naturals)
- 2mg copper (swanson) and ZMA (NOW)

[2tender]

Outstanding! Thank you for posting that. I think its educational to know what regimens others use.

[kilgoretrout]

I find this whole area pretty far-fetched.
(hmmm... double entendre.. haha! Anti-aging board = "far-fetched"? Oh never mind).

Seems to be an awful lot of energy, talk, and I imagine money being expended about this astragaloside and similar things all based on the silly conviction that if you take a supplement that lengthens your telomeres you could live forever.

Has there been ANY evidence that lengthening telomeres makes anything but (what is they used in the classic studies?) some kind of WORM or maybe a fruit fly live longer?

I think there might be some snake oil salesmen out there (in here???) trying to sell you guys some very expensive and questionable "immortality serum", probably the oldest scam in the book, remember.

Look, WHICH telomeres in WHICH cells in WHICH organs are getting affected by this product? Are there any bonified research studies reporting that using it ACTUALLY RESULTS IN THE LENGTHENING OF ANY LIVE HUMAN'S TELOMERE'S ANYWHERE? I.e., what are the in-vivo results of this stuff? I believe it is: completely nonexistent.

You do not even appear to have any idea if it crosses the blood/brain barrier. Does it penetrate all tissues, all organ systems, EVERY CELL IN THE BODY?

And then there's the fact that cells, even if they have very long telomeres, cells STILL find some way to knock themselves out. Death is a VERY important part of nature's design, and, more to the point, a crucial part of the DNA/RNA-driven evolutionary process (remember "The Selfish Gene"?) and there are no doubt multiple mechanisms to ensure that it happens on schedule. I doubt you are going to defeat it with a pill that works on this one mechanism.

If it DID do something, what is the proper dose and frequency?

And aren't you at all worried that by artificially elevating cells' lifespan, you might be greatly inflating your chances for: CANCER???

I am pretty sure this company and its product are just a sham preying on desperate people obsessed with getting old designed to buy the owners' boats and Caribbean vacations.

And I would hope you have seen this displaimer by the manufacturer saying "we have no idea if this does anything whatsoever"... but they will still take your $40.l00 for 30 worthless pills:

Telomere Effect en Vivo
We want to be clear that there are NO PUBLIC STUDIES supporting the hypothesis that Astragaloside IV activates telomerase. There is only Geron's private work supporting that assertion in vitro. And there are no studies, public or otherwise as to what the effect on shortening telomeres would be like in vivo by Astragaloside IV or by any other telomerase activator. There are anecdotal reports from TA Sciences about TA-65, another telomerase activator, that its use resulted in lengthened telomeres, but no data has been published in that regard.

Do we think that Astragaloside IV would lengthen telomeres in vivo? We don't know. The evidence is not in. If forced to guess, we would say no, because that would just be too good to be true at this early stage. We are hoping instead to slow down the shortening. The type of person that would be a good candidate for this supplement would be an 'early adopter' who is convinced by Geron's work alone that it has enough potential to be worth trying.

[niner]

I find this whole area pretty far-fetched.

See my response to this post here.

[revenant]

double post

Edited by revenant, 25 January 2010 - 04:52 AM.

[revenant]

BUMP ./.sorry to necro this thread, I was just curious...Anthony, did you ever post the results of your telomere tests from Canada? No worries if it's any sort of trouble of course, I'm just curious. These forums are vast, I couldn't find anything relevant when I searched. Thanks m8

[drmz]

I find this whole area pretty far-fetched.
(hmmm... double entendre.. haha! Anti-aging board = "far-fetched"? Oh never mind).

Seems to be an awful lot of energy, talk, and I imagine money being expended about this astragaloside and similar things all based on the silly conviction that if you take a supplement that lengthens your telomeres you could live forever.

Has there been ANY evidence that lengthening telomeres makes anything but (what is they used in the classic studies?) some kind of WORM or maybe a fruit fly live longer?

I think there might be some snake oil salesmen out there (in here???) trying to sell you guys some very expensive and questionable "immortality serum", probably the oldest scam in the book, remember.

Look, WHICH telomeres in WHICH cells in WHICH organs are getting affected by this product? Are there any bonified research studies reporting that using it ACTUALLY RESULTS IN THE LENGTHENING OF ANY LIVE HUMAN'S TELOMERE'S ANYWHERE? I.e., what are the in-vivo results of this stuff? I believe it is: completely nonexistent.

You do not even appear to have any idea if it crosses the blood/brain barrier. Does it penetrate all tissues, all organ systems, EVERY CELL IN THE BODY?

And then there's the fact that cells, even if they have very long telomeres, cells STILL find some way to knock themselves out. Death is a VERY important part of nature's design, and, more to the point, a crucial part of the DNA/RNA-driven evolutionary process (remember "The Selfish Gene"?) and there are no doubt multiple mechanisms to ensure that it happens on schedule. I doubt you are going to defeat it with a pill that works on this one mechanism.

If it DID do something, what is the proper dose and frequency?

And aren't you at all worried that by artificially elevating cells' lifespan, you might be greatly inflating your chances for: CANCER???

I am pretty sure this company and its product are just a sham preying on desperate people obsessed with getting old designed to buy the owners' boats and Caribbean vacations.

And I would hope you have seen this displaimer by the manufacturer saying "we have no idea if this does anything whatsoever"... but they will still take your $40.l00 for 30 worthless pills:

Telomere Effect en Vivo
We want to be clear that there are NO PUBLIC STUDIES supporting the hypothesis that Astragaloside IV activates telomerase. There is only Geron's private work supporting that assertion in vitro. And there are no studies, public or otherwise as to what the effect on shortening telomeres would be like in vivo by Astragaloside IV or by any other telomerase activator. There are anecdotal reports from TA Sciences about TA-65, another telomerase activator, that its use resulted in lengthened telomeres, but no data has been published in that regard.

Do we think that Astragaloside IV would lengthen telomeres in vivo? We don't know. The evidence is not in. If forced to guess, we would say no, because that would just be too good to be true at this early stage. We are hoping instead to slow down the shortening. The type of person that would be a good candidate for this supplement would be an 'early adopter' who is convinced by Geron's work alone that it has enough potential to be worth trying.

Only "the suggestion"something works is often enough to make people swallow pills like crazy. Certainly when it comes to preventing "death".

Edited by drmz, 25 January 2010 - 03:03 PM.

[full_circle]

the long supplement list of the poster above, frankly, worries me. i am 99% sure taking that much everyday will only harm you, not to mention many of the supplements in that list imho, cancel each other out.

anyone taking telomerase activator should at least check cholesterol profile, preferably every month, as telomerase activators tend to worsen the profile, in fact quite severely. the question on telomerase activator is not wether it works or not. it is how to find ways to selectively turn on and off (e.g., turning on all cells' telomere in your body will in fact shorten your life) and also is how to solve the dilemma or oxymoron it creates, e.g., your cells may live 4ever but you die at 60 thanks to the premature worsening of atherosclerosis (as almighty as it seems, telomerase activator can't dissolve arterial plaque)

*
resveratrol: when you encounter a new substance that seems to do something but the mechanics of which you do not quite understand, it is always a good idea to step back and think about "why does it exist in the 1st place?" resveratrol is a plant's weapon of chemical warfare. why chemical? because plants can't run away. all plants fight chemically.

example:
mushrooms have hydrazine alkaloids (mutagens and carcinogens)
tomato, potato, eggplant, green and red peppers, paprika and tobacco have solanine (cause arthritis but also is sold as skin cancer cure)
Corn, peanuts and peanut butter have aflatoxin (1000X more carcinogenic than alcohol)
Celery have psoralen (a photosensitizing chemical so are hypericin and St. John's wort)
Basil have estragole (a mutagen).
Alfalfa sprouts have canavanine (this one mimics amino-acid and causes a autoimmune disease)
Wheat have estrogenic substances that interfere with reproduction of male mammals.
coffee, tea and chocolate have caffeine and theobromine (natural insecticides)

most of these "chemical warfare" substances possess healing power in moderate dose (as do most poisons) but at the end of the day, they are weapons, and you should keep that in mind. my hunch on resveratrol is that, in a not-yet-known mechanism, it somehow forces starvation on cellular level, not immediately but in the long run. in other words, it activates starvation gene SIRT1 by literally starving the cell and in line of this reasoning, despite a number of conflicting studies, i believe resveratrol can only act as telomerase inhibitor.

Edited by full_circle, 26 January 2010 - 11:51 AM.

[NDM]

so, full_circle, if you are so knowledgeable and willing to help, why don't you go ahead and share with us what supps you take, in what amounts, and why? I'm ready to take notes.

Edited by NDM, 27 January 2010 - 02:57 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

I have posted information here about a particular companies product, and it is basically a "Buyer Beware" message regarding supplement products in general:
http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=384221

I do mention Chromadex as well in the post, as a few things need to be cleared up regarding Terraternal and Chromadex.

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 16 February 2010 - 06:17 PM.

[bobman]

I find this whole area pretty far-fetched.
(hmmm... double entendre.. haha! Anti-aging board = "far-fetched"? Oh never mind).

Seems to be an awful lot of energy, talk, and I imagine money being expended about this astragaloside and similar things all based on the silly conviction that if you take a supplement that lengthens your telomeres you could live forever.

Has there been ANY evidence that lengthening telomeres makes anything but (what is they used in the classic studies?) some kind of WORM or maybe a fruit fly live longer?

I think there might be some snake oil salesmen out there (in here???) trying to sell you guys some very expensive and questionable "immortality serum", probably the oldest scam in the book, remember.

Look, WHICH telomeres in WHICH cells in WHICH organs are getting affected by this product? Are there any bonified research studies reporting that using it ACTUALLY RESULTS IN THE LENGTHENING OF ANY LIVE HUMAN'S TELOMERE'S ANYWHERE? I.e., what are the in-vivo results of this stuff? I believe it is: completely nonexistent.

You do not even appear to have any idea if it crosses the blood/brain barrier. Does it penetrate all tissues, all organ systems, EVERY CELL IN THE BODY?

And then there's the fact that cells, even if they have very long telomeres, cells STILL find some way to knock themselves out. Death is a VERY important part of nature's design, and, more to the point, a crucial part of the DNA/RNA-driven evolutionary process (remember "The Selfish Gene"?) and there are no doubt multiple mechanisms to ensure that it happens on schedule. I doubt you are going to defeat it with a pill that works on this one mechanism.

If it DID do something, what is the proper dose and frequency?

And aren't you at all worried that by artificially elevating cells' lifespan, you might be greatly inflating your chances for: CANCER???

I am pretty sure this company and its product are just a sham preying on desperate people obsessed with getting old designed to buy the owners' boats and Caribbean vacations.

And I would hope you have seen this displaimer by the manufacturer saying "we have no idea if this does anything whatsoever"... but they will still take your $40.l00 for 30 worthless pills:

Telomere Effect en Vivo
We want to be clear that there are NO PUBLIC STUDIES supporting the hypothesis that Astragaloside IV activates telomerase. There is only Geron's private work supporting that assertion in vitro. And there are no studies, public or otherwise as to what the effect on shortening telomeres would be like in vivo by Astragaloside IV or by any other telomerase activator. There are anecdotal reports from TA Sciences about TA-65, another telomerase activator, that its use resulted in lengthened telomeres, but no data has been published in that regard.

Do we think that Astragaloside IV would lengthen telomeres in vivo? We don't know. The evidence is not in. If forced to guess, we would say no, because that would just be too good to be true at this early stage. We are hoping instead to slow down the shortening. The type of person that would be a good candidate for this supplement would be an 'early adopter' who is convinced by Geron's work alone that it has enough potential to be worth trying.

Go ahead, please fund these studies. They are interesting questions. The big business isn't in proving that herbs work, it's in isolating specific fractions and synthesizing analogs.

I feel better taking ayurvedic & traditional chinese herbs than I have at any point when taking western medicine (located in Boston, great healthcare). I don't need pharma-funded studies to tell me what my body knows. My doctors (and hair stylist) all remark that I look far healthier than I did before I started taking these herbs. Solved any mental health issues, solved a lot of body issues, energy issues, started growing more hair, much more resilient to injury, my skin glows, my cholesterol is way down. My uncle is a doctor, and as he says, medicine is 80% art. The specificity and certainty you believe western medicine to have doesn't exist. I have a lot of doctors in my family's circle, and they'll tell you that our firm medical knowledge is a hair's breath away from human experimentation.

And FYI, there isn't a single substance in existence that has the level of research you're asking for. Even with regards to well-established neurological drugs, there is very little understanding of the actual mechanisms (in the last 2 years proposed mechanism for fluoxetine action has been demonstrated to be incorrect). Things become very complicated when you start asking for cellular interactions of anything more than a few cells on a petri dish. I'd study some biology before posting anti-alternative rants like this.

Edited by bobmann, 06 May 2010 - 06:55 PM.

[chrono]

The specificity and certainty you believe western medicine to have doesn't exist. I have a lot of doctors in my family's circle, and they'll tell you that our firm medical knowledge is a hair's breath away from human experimentation.

I think there's a balance to be had between anecdote/experience and clinical/mechanism studies. They can both say things the other can't.

But in the case of this particular rant, I think the assertions were largely true. There's not much in the way of evidence about astragalus compounds lengthening telomeres, or even that longer telomeres necessarily prolong life. The existing research is sparse and potentially biased.

I don't think anyone's saying that astragalus doesn't have any benefit. But the telomere mechanism is much more difficult to divine by experience. As you say, we don't really know what mechanism(s) might be causing those benefits you (and others) report.

Am hoping to start on astragalus soon, myself. What kind of dose are you taking, bobmann?

[solarfingers]

I've been using astragalus root extract (gaia) for 5 months now, I use 16 ml/day(aprox. 8 fl ounces/2 week).
I rotate it in a 2 week schedule(2 weeks on, 2 weeks off)

is there a reason youre doing 2 weeks on 2 weeks off? i started taking astragalus today to help me recover from reactivated mono/epstein-barr, and i had planned on taking it continuously for the next 2 months. i had planned on taking 2 caps 2x per day of natures answer astragalus extract (250mg std astragalus @ 0.3% astragalosides + 250mg astragalus root powder) which totals about 3mg per day astragalosides.

Hi Ajnast4r,

I'm using the approach described by James Green on his website http://greenwoodstor...ERASEACTIVATORS

I'm using omega 3 and resveratrol during the 2 weeks I'm not using astragalus(see list below)

This is what I use during the first two weeks

Astragalus
Aminoguanidine
Deprenyl
Acarbose
Metformin
carnosine
L-arginine
Chlorella
L-Theanine

And this is what I use during the second 2 weeks

Super Omega-3
Mitochondrial Energy Optimizer
500 mg resveratrol
Astragalus
Aminoguanidine
Deprenyl
Acarbose
Metformin
carnosine
L-arginine
Chlorella
L-Theanine

I also exercise 4/5 times a week, my personal record on 1/2 marathon is 1:27 even though I restrict my carbohydrates



Cheers,

Simon

ps. sorry for the poor lay-out, I have it in a spreadsheet but couldn't get it in the post

Peter, Are you still this regime? How is that going?

Thanks...