113 replies to this topic

[Cyberbrain]

Why is it that we can't all be moderate and accept each others beliefs?

Why is it that some atheists here have to disprove god and why is it that some theists here have to prove atheists wrong?

Can't we all just get along?

[william7]

Why is it that we can't all be moderate and accept each others beliefs?

Why is it that some atheists here have to disprove god and why is it that some theists here have to prove atheists wrong?

Can't we all just get along?

I thought we're all getting a long just fine. I enjoy debating my point of view with atheists as long as it's done in a civil manner. I believe immortality can only be obtained through living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of Yahweh. Matthew 4:4. Atheism cannot accomplish the task. This is why debate in a vigorous and robust manner in favor of the word of Yahweh. I hope to live a significantly long life span too.

[platypus]

2. The biggest concentration of angry atheists seems to be in America, and if I am not mistaken, even a British atheist, Dawkins, settles in America or does his angry activities as an atheist, in America.

I guess the reason for that is that in America religion is still the norm due to your religious past. In many European countries secularism is now the norm within the younger & more educated demographic. If a 25 year old university graduate believes in gods it almost raises eyebrows (a believer, how quaint!).

4. Atheists can claim not to be angry but that is not what they show in their behavior which is certainly one of anger, not being angry is just a rationalization founded on a technical logic that one cannot be angry at something that does not exist,

Of course it's possible to be angry at something that does not exist or is illusory. Humans do this all the time.

[Luna]

Nice to hear you been having fun Elijah.

Perhaps you should come to Israel and teach the believer here your interpretations of the bible, I happened to be near a real debate where religious people fanatically opposed any type of life extension "in the name of god".

I take it they would be labeled as "false believers" by your standards

[william7]

Nice to hear you been having fun Elijah.

Perhaps you should come to Israel and teach the believer here your interpretations of the bible, I happened to be near a real debate where religious people fanatically opposed any type of life extension "in the name of god".

I take it they would be labeled as "false believers" by your standards

Are they some branch of Judaism or Islam? Neither of these religions has the New Testament of the Bible so they do have a lot to learn.

There's nothing in the Scriptures that says exactly how Yahweh is going to give humanity immortality. It's just my personal belief that He will allow us to use science and technology to achieve immortality, once society as a whole is living according to the Scriptures exactly how He wants us to, so it can be done safely.

[Luna]

Judaism.. the dominating religion in Israel.

[susmariosep]

Why is it that we can't all be moderate and accept each others beliefs?

Why is it that some atheists here have to disprove god and why is it that some theists here have to prove atheists wrong?

Can't we all just get along?

Before anything else, we have got to practice polite speech.

Some people however want to see insult in even polite speech.

It is like some converts to Buddhism, they accuse me of lacking respect for them because I am investigating their Buddhist doctrines and observances, in exactly the same way I do here with atheists.

In a way, it is also correct that when we examine someone's doctrines and observances he should feel that we don't give him due respect.

They think that respect means taking their intellectual positions to be true for everyone as for themselves.

However, that is one thing that people should disabuse themselves of, unless they want to keep invisible.

But specially when they come out in public to identify themselves to harbor this or that worldview or moral values only, or some interesting opinions, then they should be disposed to at least if nothing else bear with other people examining them, their doctrines, and their observances.

Now, with atheists, if they don't want people to inquire about their intellectual positions in regard to God or no God, then they should simply maintain an unnoticeable presence [pun not intended].

The same thing of course can be said about theists.



Susmariosep

[william7]

Judaism.. the dominating religion in Israel.

Whenever Judaism comes up, I'm always reminded of the prophecy in Zechariah 12:1-14. I would never like to consider myself an enemy of the house of Judah like the nations under the false religions who will come against her will be. Notice in verse 10 how the house of David (Judah) repents when the Messiah shows Himself.

The various religious groups I associate with here in the United States consider themselves as being descended from the lost 10 tribes of Israel, who Yahweh sifted through the nations as punishment for idolatry, as mentioned in Amos 9:8,9. The other 2 tribes Judah and Benjamin with part of Levi were later taken into captivity and deported to Babylon when they eventually fell into idolatry. An excellent booklet to read on the subject of the lost 10 tribes of Israel is The United States and Britain in Bible Prophecy, at http://www.gnmagazin...ts/US/index.htm.

[Luna]

This debate is becoming more pleasant than expected

Although I think a conclusion was made, was it not?

People at imminst, both atheist and believers like each other, therefore, no anger in here to cause any troubles

[william7]

Although I think a conclusion was made, was it not?

I'm not sure what you mean here by conclusion. The only thing I can think of as far as a conclusion goes is this:

"However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' 15 but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.

(Jeremiah 16:14-15).

Of course, this hasn't been accomplished yet, but I certainly see evidence of the process at work in communities like the Twelve Tribes. We're becoming more Hebrew in our thinking and language. Special emphasis is given to the Torah (Old Testament) in many cases.

People at imminst, both atheist and believers like each other, therefore, no anger in here to cause any troubles

I agree! We can learn from each other how to attain immortality.

[susmariosep]

Well, we are agreed that there are angry atheists.

And that deserves an examination from people who do examine things from at least an academic curiosity.

First question is why are angry atheists angry when there are atheists who are not angry.


Then, how do we know who the angry ones are and who the non-angry ones?


The second question can be answered easily, namely, we know angry atheists from their words and deeds.



Third question, can something be done about it so that they do not feel any anger and thus do not engage in angry words and deeds?



Susmariosep

[Lufega]

"How we we dissipate the anger of angry atheists?"

--Ban Religion.

Let's go back to paganism and worship nature and women.

[brokenportal]

"How we we dissipate the anger of angry atheists?"

--Ban Religion.

Let's go back to paganism and worship nature and women.

Why would anybody want to ban the use of flippant guessing to govern and shape societies?

[william7]

"How we we dissipate the anger of angry atheists?"

--Ban Religion.

Let's go back to paganism and worship nature and women.

Going back to paganism isn't really a ban on religion then. And, if you worship women, you're going to have an awful problem with women worse than we have now.

The Bible holds out the most hope of all the religions in my opinion. Worship Yahweh, the God of the Bible, and the world will turn out just fine.

[Iam Empathy]

http://www.iamanatheist.com/

[william7]

http://www.iamanatheist.com/

Had me scared for a minute.

[cyborgdreamer]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating anyone. Personally, I'm an atheist and I'm angry. I'm not angry at religious people per se. (As long as they don't use religion as an excuse to hurt people or limit others' rights, I have no problem with their beliefs). However, I am angry that the universe is indifferent our needs and rights. Every day people die against their will (and there's no scientific evidence of an afterlife). Life is full of suffering, from minor annoyances to horrifying tragedies and no amount of praying ever changes that.

Undoubtably, some religious poeple will disagree and I'm perfectly willing to listen to any rational argument to the contrary. However, the evidence (or lack there of) is pretty clear. So, until mankind can transcend the human condition, I'm staying angry.

[william7]

As long as they don't use religion as an excuse to hurt people or limit others' rights

Those people who are using religion to harm others are antichrists. Did you listen to the podcast at http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=25499?

I am angry that the universe is indifferent our needs and rights

It's better to go through life with a positive emotion rather than a negative one. Wouldn't you rather go around with a glad and thankful heart? You'll accomplish more and feel much better about life.

[cyborgdreamer]

As long as they don't use religion as an excuse to hurt people or limit others' rights

Those people who are using religion to harm others are antichrists. Did you listen to the podcast at http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=25499?

The beginning is creepy. I didn't have the time to watch the rest. Maybe I will later.

I am angry that the universe is indifferent our needs and rights

It's better to go through life with a positive emotion rather than a negative one. Wouldn't you rather go around with a glad and thankful heart? You'll accomplish more and feel much better about life.

Sure, I want to be happy, but that's not worth ignoring the fact that the universe arbitrarily allows suffering and death to exist. And my anger may make me feel bad but it rarely prevents me from accomplishing anything. In fact, it motivates me to do more to combat these problems.

[TianZi]

0 people killed in the name of atheism in history

You must of never heard of the horrendous death toll, imprisonment and torture caused by the Marxist atheists such as Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, etc.

over 800 million killed in the name of religion in history

In the name of false religion those people were killed. The true religion of the Bible teaches nonviolence, peace, justice and mercy.

1. Your first point is worth considering, although at least in China very few of the people in question were killed during the Great Leap Forward (50's) and Cultural Revolution (60's; Mao loses power at the end of this period) for religious reasons, but instead, as a result of their class / political leanings (millions died during the GLF in the 50's, but that was due to starvation resulting from disastrous government policies).

Buddhists simply aren't violent and are apolitical. In fact, they were officially sheltered and supported by the government under Mao's leadership, although privately he was ambivalent about them, and many of their temples were destroyed by the Red Guard acting on its own during the chaos of the Cultural Revolution. There have never been enough Christians in China to make them a force to worry about (well, they pissed off the Boxers, but that was a half century before the time we are discussing).

You got it partly right about Pol Pot. He specifically had more than 2 million people massacred due to their religious faith, almost all of whom were Buddhists, with a few Muslims thrown in. Interestingly, the very few Cambodian Christians were to my knowledge left untouched, and in fact most of the Khmer Rouge ultimately converted to the Christian faith. I'm sure these murderers found solace within the Old Testament in particular.

I'm only vaguely familiar with Stalin's pogroms--he had it in for the Jews, but it doesn't seemed to have been based on some universal hatred of all religious persons, but rather some special prejudice against the Jews. I'm unaware of any genocidal campaign aimed at Soviet Christians, but I have never studied Russian history.

You should have mentioned the widespread execution of clergy and other religionists by Jacobin atheists during the Reign of Terror following the French Revolution.

You might also have mentioned Hitler and his campaign of genocide against the Jews, although it's unclear if Hitler was an atheist, a Christian as he publicly professed, or a pagan as were many members of his inner circle.

2. Your second point I strongly object to. The New Testament cannot be read to the exclusion of the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is page after page after page of atrocities committed by "God's chosen people" at the command of God--back then, God apparently commanded his faithful few to massacre non-believers, excepting young female non-believers, who God commanded be kept as sex slaves. Those 800 millions deaths, or however many millions, were all committed by people who firmly believed they were practicing the only "true religion of the Bible", and their use of violence is not surprising thanks to the savagery of the Old Testament.

"Kill Them All; God Knows His Own". Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. This just isn't something a Buddhist, at least, would ever say.

Edited by TianZi, 05 November 2008 - 09:51 AM.

[TianZi]

I know this is a complete waste of finger-energy, but did you ever wonder why god didn't just come out and say it, rather than using this text which actually does condone stoning people, slavery, rape, child abuse, mass slaughter, etc., if taken literally?

Yeah, I figure He's doing it in order to give people with bad hearts an opportunity to be angry with Him and make false accusations against Him. Then He will have just cause to weed them out and destroy them when He sets up His Kingdom on earth. It's like the refining process mentioned in Malachi 3:2-5; Matthew 3:7-12.

This response terrifies me, by the way. By saying this, you advocate that every person in this thread who has made a "false accusation" against God be weeded out and destroyed. This simply supports the hypothesis stated by atheists in this thread that, practically speaking, the anger of religionists is far more dangerous than the anger of atheists. In contrast, I don't believe a single self-professed atheist in this thread has called for the destruction of any other human being.

It is ironic, but not surprising, that the thread starter did not comment on this, despite his supposed interest in objective analysis.

Edited by TianZi, 05 November 2008 - 09:32 AM.

[william7]

although at least in China very few of the people in question were killed during the Great Leap Forward (50's) and Cultural Revolution (60's; Mao loses power at the end of this period) for religious reasons

The issue wasn't whether Mao and the other political leaders killed people because the people were of an opposing religion. The issue was that they were atheists imposing a political system based on an atheist philosophy and they killed, imprisoned, and tortured people in the process of imposing the system. I'm sure you must agree that Mao did kill, imprison and torture many people while imposing his brand of Marxist ideology on the Chinese people?

Buddhists simply aren't violent and are apolitical. In fact, they were officially sheltered and supported by the government under Mao's leadership, although privately he was ambivalent about them, and many of their temples were destroyed by the Red Guard acting on its own during the chaos of the Cultural Revolution. There have never been enough Christians in China to make them a force to worry about (well, they pissed off the Boxers, but that was a half century before the time we are discussing).

Again, the issue wasn't whether Mao was killing Christians or other religious people. I thought I read somewhere that Chinese communists did kill, imprison, and torture Tibetans when they invaded Tibet and drove out the Dalai Lama.

You should have mentioned the widespread execution of clergy and other religionists by Jacobin atheists during the Reign of Terror following the French Revolution.

You might also have mentioned Hitler and his campaign of genocide against the Jews, although it's unclear if Hitler was an atheist, a Christian as he publicly professed, or a pagan as were many members of his inner circle.

Good point here. My response, however, never put a limit on the number of offenders. I'm sure there are many others. In fact, I believe many of the religious leaders who killed, imprisoned, and tortured people in behalf of their religions were actually undercover atheists who did not believe in anything supernatural. They just used the particular religion at hand to further their agenda of conquest. I suspect Hitler probably didn't believe in anything supernatural even though he gave some lip service to the Christian religion. http://en.wikipedia....ligious_beliefs

2. Your second point I strongly object to. The New Testament cannot be read to the exclusion of the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is page after page after page of atrocities committed by "God's chosen people" at the command of God--back then, God apparently commanded his faithful few to massacre non-believers, excepting young female non-believers, who God commanded be kept as sex slaves. Those 800 millions deaths, or however many millions, were all committed by people who firmly believed they were practicing the only "true religion of the Bible", and their use of violence is not surprising thanks to the savagery of the Old Testament.

What violence Yahweh (God) used in Old Testament times was in behalf of preventing violence in the future. In fact, many of the pagan cultures He had the Israelites destroy, sacrificed their own children to their pagan gods. 2 Kings 16:3. The Israelites were a difficult people who were prone to adopting the pagan religious practices (such as sacrificing children) from the people Yahweh wanted destroyed. This is why He wanted them removed from the land He was giving the Israelites.

An excellent example of how Yahweh felt about violence can be found in Genesis 6:5-13. Again, it has always been Yahweh's intent to limit violence and eventually put an end to it and death forever. Notice Isaiah 11:6-9; Hosea 2:18; Revelation 21:3-4.

"Kill Them All; God Knows His Own". Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. This just isn't something a Buddhist, at least, would ever say.

This was, I'm fairly certain, something said by the catholic church that was not practicing what Yahshua (Jesus Christ) taught. The catholic church had no orders from Yahweh to kill anybody. They were acting without authority from Yahweh as many today clearly recognize.

[william7]

I know this is a complete waste of finger-energy, but did you ever wonder why god didn't just come out and say it, rather than using this text which actually does condone stoning people, slavery, rape, child abuse, mass slaughter, etc., if taken literally?

Yeah, I figure He's doing it in order to give people with bad hearts an opportunity to be angry with Him and make false accusations against Him. Then He will have just cause to weed them out and destroy them when He sets up His Kingdom on earth. It's like the refining process mentioned in Malachi 3:2-5; Matthew 3:7-12.

This response terrifies me, by the way. By saying this, you advocate that every person in this thread who has made a "false accusation" against God be weeded out and destroyed. This simply supports the hypothesis stated by atheists in this thread that, practically speaking, the anger of religionists is far more dangerous than the anger of atheists. In contrast, I don't believe a single self-professed atheist in this thread has called for the destruction of any other human being.

It is ironic, but not surprising, that the thread starter did not comment on this, despite his supposed interest in objective analysis.

You must remember, however, that the people with bad hearts who slander Yahweh will be people opposed to the peace and justice He wants established on earth. In other words, those type of people will want to keep the violence and corruption of the current evil system in place. In the interests of peace and justice, Yahshua will need to remove those people as He has promised.

[cyborgdreamer]

I know this is a complete waste of finger-energy, but did you ever wonder why god didn't just come out and say it, rather than using this text which actually does condone stoning people, slavery, rape, child abuse, mass slaughter, etc., if taken literally?

Yeah, I figure He's doing it in order to give people with bad hearts an opportunity to be angry with Him and make false accusations against Him. Then He will have just cause to weed them out and destroy them when He sets up His Kingdom on earth. It's like the refining process mentioned in Malachi 3:2-5; Matthew 3:7-12.

This response terrifies me, by the way. By saying this, you advocate that every person in this thread who has made a "false accusation" against God be weeded out and destroyed. This simply supports the hypothesis stated by atheists in this thread that, practically speaking, the anger of religionists is far more dangerous than the anger of atheists. In contrast, I don't believe a single self-professed atheist in this thread has called for the destruction of any other human being.

It is ironic, but not surprising, that the thread starter did not comment on this, despite his supposed interest in objective analysis.

You must remember, however, that the people with bad hearts who slander Yahweh will be people opposed to the peace and justice He wants established on earth. In other words, those type of people will want to keep the violence and corruption of the current evil system in place. In the interests of peace and justice, Yahshua will need to remove those people as He has promised.

So you believe that even God Himself can't solve these problems without killing people; that's a pretty bleak philosophy.

By the way, are you suggesting that all athiests have bad hearts and want corruption and violence in the world? Because I find that insulting.

Edited by cyborgdreamer, 05 November 2008 - 09:18 PM.

[william7]

So you believe that even God Himself can't solve these problems without killing people; that's a pretty bleak philosophy.

Yes, that's what the Scriptures say, and I believe what they say to be the truth. There's hope, however, if you have faith that a stage of development will be reached where Yahweh will not have to destroy anymore wicked people ever again. When this stage is reached Yahweh can rest and not feel the pain He does over the violence and corruption His creation engages in. Genesis 6:5-6.

Listen to this song by the Twelve Tribes. May be you can gain some necessary insight.

Powered by Podbean.com

By the way, are you suggesting that all athiests have bad hearts and want corruption and violence in the world? Because I find that insulting.

Right now, if you are an atheist, you are not obedient to Yahweh's law. You do not keep His Sabbaths and Holy Days or worship Him in anyway. In His eyesight you're a criminal deserving death. You still, however, have the opportunity to repent and change course. This is what I hope and pray that you do, so you can enter life as Yahshua put it because you're not living a full or complete life until you've become obedient to the commandments. Matthew 19:17.

[forever freedom]

By the way, are you suggesting that all athiests have bad hearts and want corruption and violence in the world? Because I find that insulting.

Right now, if you are an atheist, you are not obedient to Yahweh's law. You do not keep His Sabbaths and Holy Days or worship Him in anyway. In His eyesight you're a criminal deserving death. You still, however, have the opportunity to repent and change course. This is what I hope and pray that you do, so you can enter life as Yahshua put it because you're not living a full or complete life until you've become obedient to the commandments. Matthew 19:17.

Change a few words here and there, and this is exactly what muslim terrorists preach. Congrats, your thinking is not much more sophisticated than theirs. I imagine who you would be if you were born among them. Maybe you would have already blown yourself up, taking a few infidels with you, in the name of Allah.

Edited by sam988, 06 November 2008 - 03:28 AM.

[TianZi]

1. The point about Mao I made above is that the killing he ordered was not done "in the name of atheism", as you claimed, since persons of religious faith were not specifically targeted. Communism is not necessarily tantamount to atheism, and its adherents do not need to accept every word written by Marx as absolute truth. Indeed, the communists in China made clear they disagreed with many of Marx's central tenets, including his belief that a society must advance to an industrial stage before it was ready for a communist revolution. The Buddhist faith was sheltered and encouraged by Mao, for a time and to an extent.

Rather, the deaths for which Mao was responsible were committed in order that he and his cronies could claim and hold power. Mao was in most ways more an amoral pragmatist than a fervent ideologue (at least before syphilis destroyed his mind). As Mao said, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." (Sounds a bit like Cheney.) There is therefore no cause and effect relationship between atheism and the deaths attributable to Mao. In Mao's case, we cannot say because he was an atheist, therefore he took the lives of others. But that cause and effect relationship is clearly there for the Muslim terrorists responsible for 9/11. Or for what the Christian Crusaders did to the Muslims, long before.

Savage repression of dissent is common to most authoritarian regimes throughout history, irrespective of their guiding ideology. Contrast this with the historic barbaric treatment of religious objectors by theocracies, where the killings were not ordered because they were necessary to hold onto power, but rather in service to their religious faith.

2. "In His eyesight you're a criminal deserving death."

And in your eyes, as well. I believe you have the distinction of being the only poster on these forums who has ever calmly, seriously claimed that certain other posters deserved to be executed.

Hopefully you'll never see yourself being empowered as an instrument of His will tasked with carrying out His commandments. Or perhaps you already do.

[cyborgdreamer]

By the way, are you suggesting that all athiests have bad hearts and want corruption and violence in the world? Because I find that insulting.

Right now, if you are an atheist, you are not obedient to Yahweh's law. You do not keep His Sabbaths and Holy Days or worship Him in anyway. In His eyesight you're a criminal deserving death. You still, however, have the opportunity to repent and change course. This is what I hope and pray that you do, so you can enter life as Yahshua put it because you're not living a full or complete life until you've become obedient to the commandments. Matthew 19:17.

No being with a will to live deserves to die. Why would you want a leader who kills people just for disagreeing with Him?

[william7]

Change a few words here and there, and this is exactly what muslim terrorists preach. Congrats, your thinking is not much more sophisticated than theirs. I imagine who you would be if you were born among them. Maybe you would have already blown yourself up, taking a few infidels with you, in the name of Allah.

There's quite a bit of difference between what I preach and muslim terrorists preach. I don't see how you can not see the big difference here. It's as if you're trying to put me in a mold I clearly don't fit in. Perhaps it's a perceptual difficulty of sometype or deeply ingrained bais of some sort.

If the muslim terrorists were practicing what the Scriptures say and I preach, they wouldn't be trying to kill themselves or others. They would be merciful and just to others - including their enemies. This is what Yahshua taught.

[forever freedom]

Change a few words here and there, and this is exactly what muslim terrorists preach. Congrats, your thinking is not much more sophisticated than theirs. I imagine who you would be if you were born among them. Maybe you would have already blown yourself up, taking a few infidels with you, in the name of Allah.

There's quite a bit of difference between what I preach and muslim terrorists preach. I don't see how you can not see the big difference here. It's as if you're trying to put me in a mold I clearly don't fit in. Perhaps it's a perceptual difficulty of sometype or deeply ingrained bais of some sort.

If the muslim terrorists were practicing what the Scriptures say and I preach, they wouldn't be trying to kill themselves or others. They would be merciful and just to others - including their enemies. This is what Yahshua taught.

But the thinking is the same. Both think that "the infidels deserve death in the view of our God". Terrorists just take it one step further and decide to do it themselves, just as christians did with the crusades and in the inquisition times. It's all caused by religion...