47 replies to this topic

[rwac]

I'd add MK-7, melatonin, and more D3

Vitamin D suppresses the immune system.
I'm not sure how much I should take since I probably have Lyme.

Comments are always appreciated, though.

Vitamin D in Lyme is fairly essential to prevent the development of autoimmunity which Lyme provokes in a variety of ways (intracellular forms, molecular mimicry, covers itself with host cell membrane when exiting a cell, purposeful induction / manipulation of various cytokines). Nothing is black or white young grasshopper!

Have you been listening to Trevor Marshall?

I might have read about his protocol through secondary sources.
I should probably be more careful as to what I absorb.

What do you recommend ? 2000 IU that you're taking ?

[FunkOdyssey]

I've watched him speak -- I have a DVD of a medical conference where he outlines his entire theory and answers questions. I tend to think he jumps to conclusions too easily, based on unreliable evidence like computer simulation rather than experimental data. The entire protocol is a patchwork of these ideas: 25OHD antagonizes D receptor (computer model), "normal" 1,25OHD level is actually high (no idea where this comes from), angiotensin receptor blockade weakens bacteria somehow (clinical observation? bear in mind he is not a medical doctor), benicar is a VDR agonist (computer model).

Its like when you are doing research, trying to piece together a puzzling issue in medicine or science. You get an idea that excites you, and then based on that idea you formulate another exciting idea, and so forth, with each leap making some logical sense but without a strong evidential basis. You end up with a theory that may sound feasible, but with a shaky foundation that does not stand up to close scrutiny, having no data no lean on. This is the Marshall Protocol.

You should get semi-regular testing of 25OHD and base your supplementation on that. 3000iu produced 46ng/mL for me during the warmer months -- now that its winter, and I'd like to see 25OHD a bit higher than that, I'm using 5000iu.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 23 December 2008 - 04:33 PM.

[rwac]

I've watched him speak -- I have a DVD of a medical conference where he outlines his entire theory and answers questions. I tend to think he jumps to conclusions too easily, based on unreliable evidence like computer simulation rather than experimental data. The entire protocol is a patchwork of these ideas: 25OHD antagonizes D receptor (computer model), "normal" 1,25OHD level is actually high (no idea where this comes from), angiotensin receptor blockade weakens bacteria somehow (clinical observation? bear in mind he is not a medical doctor), benicar is a VDR agonist (computer model).

Its like when you are doing research, trying to piece together a puzzling issue in medicine or science. You get an idea that excites you, and then based on that idea you formulate another exciting idea, and so forth, with each leap making some logical sense but without a strong evidential basis. You end up with a theory that may sound feasible, but with a shaky foundation that does not stand up to close scrutiny, having no data no lean on. This is the Marshall Protocol.

You should get semi-regular testing of 25OHD and base your supplementation on that. 3000iu produced 46ng/mL for me during the warmer months -- now that its winter, and I'd like to see 25OHD a bit higher than that, I'm using 5000iu.

I tested at 21 ng/ml this summer. I should probably be taking way more.

[FunkOdyssey]

The dry Vitamin D found in ortho-core is not well absorbed, and I don't know if it really "counts" much toward raising blood levels. I make up the total 5000iu with Ortho-Core and two Now Foods 2000iu oil-based gelcaps.

[ajnast4r]

Vitamin D suppresses the immune system.

oh my god... trevor marshal much? vitamin D is without a doubt the single most well studied 'vitamin' with consistently proven benefits. if you were going to cut out ALL supplements but one, vitamin D would be the one you wanna keep.

i suggest you read this thread very closely, paying special attention to krillins posts.

[FunkOdyssey]

This will take some time to read, but its my new favorite web page:

http://stuff.mit.edu...on/universe.htm

[NDM]

guys, is there any point to taking D daily? I've heard it has a long half-life (some people get a 150,000 IU vaccine at the beginning of the winter). Why not take it weekly? (e.g. 35,000 IU every Sunday)

[FunkOdyssey]

There should not be much difference either way, but I have some concern that very large oral doses are not as well absorbed as smaller doses. Usually the type of doses you are referring to are injected. There is also some risk that other factors could impair absorption -- maybe you have loose bowels from mexican food and intestinal transit is too fast (there goes your Vitamin D for that week). For these unlikely reasons and my sheer anality about maintaining steady serum levels of things I supplement with, I practice daily dosing.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 23 December 2008 - 08:27 PM.

[youandme]

rwac

Ive just read this whole thread.

You really need to be tested for Lyme, Hashimotos and Adrenal issues..as soon as you can.

Ive a heap of AI things going on.and you also could be fighting a similar battle and currently you don't know who your enemy is.

One thing about Marshall is he highlights the possibilities of Pathogens cloaking within cells as a role in Autoimmune Disease....so do get checked for Lyme.

[rwac]

rwac

Ive just read this whole thread.

You really need to be tested for Lyme, Hashimotos and Adrenal issues..as soon as you can.

Ive a heap of AI things going on.and you also could be fighting a similar battle and currently you don't know who your enemy is.

One thing about Marshall is he highlights the possibilities of Pathogens cloaking within cells as a role in Autoimmune Disease....so do get checked for Lyme.

Thanks for the concern.
I just recently got tested for Lyme & Adrenal stress.
Still waiting on the results.

[rwac]

just added 3000 IU D3 + 10mg K2 (MK-4)

It's interesting that Vitamin A can substitute for K2 in some of it's functions.
This may account for my good response to Retinol.

[rwac]

This might be why I have a good reaction to vitamin A & vitamin E.
Lyme induces a deficiency!!

Thanks a lot, Funk.

Here's the reason for my recent interest in Vitamin A:

J Infect Dis. 1996 Oct;174(4):747-51.
Vitamin A deficiency exacerbates murine Lyme arthritis.
Cantorna MT, Hayes CE.

Department of Biochemistry, University of Wisconsin-Madison 53706, USA.

Vitamin A deficiency predisposes the host for a strong inflammatory response, suggesting that it may foster susceptibility to diseases, such as Lyme arthritis, in which activated macrophage and inflammatory cytokine production are pathogenic. Infected mice had a rapid serum retinal decline that correlated with the onset of arthritis. The mice with the least retinol developed acute arthritis earlier and more severely than those with the highest retinol. Earlier and stronger interleukin (IL)-12, interferon-gamma (IFN)-gamma, and tumor necrosis factor responses were found in Borrelia burgdorferi-infected, vitamin A-deficient mice compared with controls. The spirochetes induced IFN-gamma secretion from unprimed cells, and retinoid addition in vitro inhibited IFN-gamma synthesis. Vitamin A deficiency may exacerbate acute Lyme arthritis by enhancing an acute arthritogenic inflammatory response initiated by spirochete-driven IFN-gamma secretion. Conversely, vitamin A may lessen acute Lyme arthritis pathology by blocking IFN-gamma and IL-12 synthesis.

Przegl Epidemiol. 2005;59(1):35-41.
[Vitamin A, E and C serum concentration in patients with Borrelia burgdorferi antibodies--non-symptomatic carriers]
[Article in Polish]

Pancewicz SA, Skrzydlewska E, Hermanowska-Szpakowicz T, Stankiewicz A, Sniecińska A, Kondrusik M, Zajkowska J, Swierzbińska R.

Klinika Chorób Zakaznych i Neuroinfekcji AMB.

To estimate vitamin A, E and C serum concentrations among forestry workers showing antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi presence. Vitamins A, E and C concentrations were evaluated in 117 sera of forestry workers. 78 persons aged 18-63 (x=43.07) showed antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi presence. In this group 13 persons showed presence of IgM, 42 persons with IgG and 23 with IgM and IgG. Control group consisted of 39 persons aged 18-56 years (x=40,97), with no detectable anti-Borrelia burgdorferi antibodies in serum. Serologic diagnosis was performed with use of ELISA kit - Borrelia recombinant IgM, IgG (Biomedica, Austria). Vitamins A and E serum concentrations were detected by RP-HPLC method with spectrophotometric detection (De Leenheet and co.). Vitamin C was detected by RP-HPLS method with spectrophotometric method (Ivanovic and co). Obtains results were statistically analysed. Significantly lower of vitamin A and E serum concentration of persons with anti-borrelia antibodies presence. The lowest concentration was observed in group showing presence of IgM and IgG. No significant difference in vitamin C serum concentration in examined groups was observed. These results may suggest that low serum concentrations of vitamin A and E may have influence on Borrelia burgdorferi infection development.

PMID: 16013408

[FunkOdyssey]

Did you notice that 78 out of 117 forestry workers had Lyme antibodies? I've heard similar statistics for forestry workers here in the United States as well. They're walking timebombs -- I bet they suffer from early dementia / alzheimer's and certain other diseases at far higher rates than the normal population.

[rwac]

Did you notice that 78 out of 117 forestry workers had Lyme antibodies? I've heard similar statistics for forestry workers here in the United States as well. They're walking timebombs -- I bet they suffer from early dementia / alzheimer's and certain other diseases at far higher rates than the normal population.

Here's a google excerpt.
Unfortunately, the highlighted bit is not in the abstract.
Can you access the full version ?

• <h3 class="r">Occupational exposure to low frequency magnetic fields and ...</h3>having worked as an agricultural, animal husbandry, and a forestry worker was positively associated with the diagnosis of dementia (OR for having worked 10 ...
  oem.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/64/2/108 - Similar pages -
  by A Seidler - 2007 - Cited by 4 - Related articles - All 5 versions

[FunkOdyssey]

Wow, there you go. Everyone that works with animals or in forests has higher risk of dementia... gee, I wonder why?

[rwac]

*Antioxidants Skipped around workouts.
** Liver support for Herxes.

*Lutein 20 mg
**Silymarin 200 mg
**Liver glandular
Thymus extract
Adrenal extract
Olive Leaf 500 mg
EGCG(green tea) 200 mg
Astragalus herbal

Chromium Picolinate 200 mcg
OR
... Polynicotinate 200 mcg
Zinc 30 mg
Copper 2 mg
Selenium Methylselenocysteine 200 mcg
Lithium Orotate 5 mg
Manganese 10 mg
Multimineral (NOW)

Benfotiamine 150 mg
Allithiamine 50 mg
CDP Choline 250 mg
p5p 50 mg
B-Right (B-25)
*Vitamin C 1500 mg
TMG 2000 mg
5htp 100 mg
Iodoral 12.5 mg
PS 200 mg
Vit A 5000 IU
Vit D 5000 IU
DHA/EPA 1000 mg
*Full Spectrum E 60 IU
Vit K2 MK4 15 mg

IP6 500 mg
Apple Cider Vinegar 625 mg
Nattokinase 4500 FU
ALA 300 mg
NAC 600 mg

Medication: Amoxicillin 2x1g (5 days/week), Grapefruit Seed Extract 2x500mg (2 days/week)

[Lufega]

I didn't see Methylene blue on this list. ARe you still using it?

[rwac]

I didn't see Methylene blue on this list. ARe you still using it?

You betcha. 30mcg 3-4 times a day.