164 replies to this topic

[edward]

Avoidance of omega 6's are next to immpossible without really contorting your diet. They are present in coconut oil, olive oil, nuts, chocolate fats, animals, and the list goes on.

I disagree, just never eat anything "processed" again and you are good As Duke mentioned the amounts in most "whole" foods are not all that great when taken in the context of ones total diet so long as that diet is relatively varied. This goes for whatever your diet flavor.

[david ellis]

I've also been a strong believer in omega-3 fatty acids and took fish and cod liver oil for many years, but completely stopped taking it after I realized that the human need for omega-3 is extremely low, as long as omega-6 is also low. Most studies, that have found positive effects from omega-3 were short-term. Longer-lasting studies often produced neutral or even negative results. I think, there's real possibility that omega-3 fatty acids can cause serious harm if they are taken for many years.

I highly recommend to read the PUFA-report from Chris Masterjohn. He has done an amazing job in reviewing all the old flawed studies, that led to the exaggerated PUFA-recommendations of today.

http://www.wolfriver...eports.htm#pufa

Please tell me why I should spend any time with the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine? Masterjohn seems to be in very thick with them. It is an animal rights/vegetarian group. Past experience has convinced me that their vegetarian viewpoint results in bad science. Do you have any links to mainstream science?

[niner]

Avoidance of omega 6's are next to immpossible without really contorting your diet. They are present in coconut oil, olive oil, nuts, chocolate fats, animals, and the list goes on.

I disagree, just never eat anything "processed" again and you are good As Duke mentioned the amounts in most "whole" foods are not all that great when taken in the context of ones total diet so long as that diet is relatively varied. This goes for whatever your diet flavor.

Yeah but... what about all the bloody omega-6's in peanuts, or almost any nut, for that matter? Considering my nut intake of late, I'm going to need an awful lot of n-3's to balance that out. I had been naively thinking that nuts could be treated as something of a staple. That doesn't seem like such a hot idea in light of the n-6 content. (Except macadamia nuts, which are quite tasty, but way more expensive than peanuts.)

[Mind]

Just another little discussion on macadamia nuts and different fats/oils.

Another study shows nuts protect against CVD.

I eat about 200 calories a day worth of nuts. Seems most studies indicate net positive health from a variety of different nuts.

[Lufega]

Mercola no longer recommends cod liver oil.

[paba]

I've also been a strong believer in omega-3 fatty acids and took fish and cod liver oil for many years, but completely stopped taking it after I realized that the human need for omega-3 is extremely low, as long as omega-6 is also low. Most studies, that have found positive effects from omega-3 were short-term. Longer-lasting studies often produced neutral or even negative results. I think, there's real possibility that omega-3 fatty acids can cause serious harm if they are taken for many years.

I highly recommend to read the PUFA-report from Chris Masterjohn. He has done an amazing job in reviewing all the old flawed studies, that led to the exaggerated PUFA-recommendations of today.

http://www.wolfriver...eports.htm#pufa

Please tell me why I should spend any time with the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine? Masterjohn seems to be in very thick with them. It is an animal rights/vegetarian group. Past experience has convinced me that their vegetarian viewpoint results in bad science. Do you have any links to mainstream science?

Masterjohn is not affiliated with this organisation, quite the opposite. He highly recommends animal products and animal fats. He has written many articles for the Weston Price Foundation Journal, but has also 2 articles listed on pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....D...sterjohn C"[Author]&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel
.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

I like Masterjohn's writing style a lot, since he's arguments are very rational, precise and always well backed up by scientific studies. He's much less propagandistic, than other health writers, like Ray Peat for instance. The PUFA-article, that I mentioned includes quite a lot of interesting material from older scientific studies, that are not easily accessible over the internet and it's very well worth it's 15 dollar, since you can find this information nowhere else online.

[zoolander]

Can anyone provide a supportive argument for saturated fats

[Brainbox]

Can anyone provide a supportive argument for saturated fats

Some educated opinions / discussions:
The Importance of Saturated Fats for Biological Functions
What if Saturated Fat is Not the Problem?

An editorial:
Saturated fat prevents coronary artery disease? An American paradox

Research:
Results of use of metformin and replacement of starch with saturated fat in diets of patients with type 2 diabetes.

But I see no evidence here to stop the intake of fish oil.

However, some nuances to the fish oil "hype":
Heterogeneity in randomized controlled trials of long chain (fish) omega-3 fatty acids in restenosis, secondary prevention and ventricular arrhythmias.

Back to square one?
Dietary fatty acids and cardiovascular disease: an epidemiological approach.
Dietary approaches that delay age-related diseases.

O-6 / O-3 ratio:
Correlations of dietary patterns with prostate health.

Last but not least:
Nutrition in the genomics era: cardiovascular disease risk and the Mediterranean diet.


By no means I want to create an impression that this is a sufficiently complete overview since e.g. the research with bad outcome for animal saturated fat consumption are missing. But for me enough evidence to make a shift towards the more healthy plant based (and some cheese, in particular Gruyère )) saturated fats without abandoning the now deemed "old school" unsaturated fat benefits. There's just no reason for a saturated fat and doom the fish oil hype IMO.

Edited by Brainbox, 23 December 2008 - 04:11 PM.

[Brainbox]

it is thought that n-3 long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids (n-3 PUFA), while not essential, do serve a very valuable functional purpose in today's diet due to the dramatic changes that have resulted from industrialization. The n-3 PUFA seems to correct some of the negative outcomes that result from today's poor diet. For example, dylipidemia and insulin resistance. So for someone like you Duke (do you mind if I call you 'no sugar'?) may not need Fish but for someone on the average American diet....well fish oil will be of great benefit. The same applies for flouride. If it wasn't for the level of refined sugar in the diet and the subsequent increase in dental caries then water fluoridation would not be needed.

I just read this older contribution, which is an interesting perspective I would like to read / learn more about. Can you elaborate or provide some links? About the fish oil that is, not the fluoride again please.

Edited by Brainbox, 23 December 2008 - 04:19 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

In a nutshell (get it? ), our diets were never this high in Omega-6. The overall balance of Omega-6 / Omega-3 PUFA is important to health: an excessively high ratio promotes destructive inflammation. Due to our recent astronomical Omega-6 consumption, which is basically impossible to avoid if you eat meat (because your meat was fed Omega-6 containing grain all its life, and is now laden with it), the only option we really have to balance the Omega-6 / Omega-3 ratio is to increase the Omega-3 side. The increased intake of Omega-3 may not be ideal for overall longevity but represents the lesser of two evils, compared to letting Omega-6 PUFA run rampant.

[Brainbox]

Ah, ok, nothing new unfortunately. It's the obvious again....

[david ellis]

I like Masterjohn's writing style a lot, since he's arguments are very rational, precise and always well backed up by scientific studies. He's much less propagandistic, than other health writers, like Ray Peat for instance. The PUFA-article, that I mentioned includes quite a lot of interesting material from older scientific studies, that are not easily accessible over the internet and it's very well worth it's 15 dollar, since you can find this information nowhere else online.

paba, I did unfairly have Masterjohn sorted with Ray Peat. The Weston A Price org's Mary G Enig has a reply to Ray Peat's points. Thanks for the pointers, I will read them.

[DukeNukem]

Hyperlipid has a little to say about this topic:
http://high-fat-nutr...ion-and_25.html

Bottom-line is that people on a low-carb or paleo-style diet can reduce their fish oil. A very small part of the what the blog author wrote:

So where does that leave fish oil supplements? I think if you have a problem with alcohol they are very bad news and you should be absolutely minimising all forms of PUFA, unless you really want cirrhosis. If you are eating to the ADA or AHA sucrose ladened guidelines and already have "mysterious" raised liver enzymes, you will make an already appalling job worse.

If you are LC and low PUFA in the first place, or even just eating a diet which doesn't generate hepatic lipidosis (minimal sucrose), I think there are advantages to modest dose fish oils for long term changes in insulin sensitivity

[HaloTeK]

I'm sure many of you paleo types out there are familiar with Mark Sisson's blog. His site offers great info on diet, nutrition,and exercise. This is my proof that 1 major paleo proponent on the net still consumes a lot of omega 6's (albeit they are natural sources).

http://i247.photobuc.../Picture1-5.png These are the foods Mark ate for a day.
http://i247.photobuc.../Picture2-4.png <----- this shows his breakdown of macros.

Notice how his polys are at 6%, not too shabby. However, if you consider the fact that he is consuming 2377 calories, that means he is consuming almost 16 grams of polyunsaturates a day. Looking at what he consumed in the first graph, he is pritty heavy on the omega 6's (using nutritiondata.com): 6oz avocado, 1 oz of almonds, 2 tbsp of olive oil, 3 whole eggs, is 2838mg, 3573mg,2636mg, and 3231mg respectively of omega 6's (with barely any omega 3's from those foods to speak of except for paltry amounts in eggs and olive oil). We are already at ~12,200mg of omega 6. Lets say for arguments sake that the remaining amount of grams of polys are at a 1:1 ratio of 3s to 6s - that would still put him at around ~14,100mg of omega 6 with 1900mg if omega 3 with a ratio of 7.4 to 1. At that kind of ratio, what kind and size of omega 3 supplement would you want to be taking??

Mark, at least to me, seems to be consuming a great diet (lots of whole foods, fresh, and with lots of micronutrients). However, he still consumes a decent amound of omega 6, with a ratio of 7.4 to 1 without the addition of extra omega 3s. Im not saying he doesn't himself bump this up with fish oil or actual fish other days of the week. But the fact remains, he'd have to supplement in the 1000mg range of omega 3s and not 100mg range to get his ratios to desirable levels. This is what I mean by you having to contort your diet to fit some ratio of omega 3 to 6.

[FunkOdyssey]

His diet *would* be very low in Omega-6, but the whole eggs are full of Omega-6 because the hens were fed grain. If these eggs were from forage-fed hens, the story would be different.

You know the saying "you are what you eat"? My version: You are what the animals you eat ate.

[DukeNukem]

Notice how his polys are at 6%, not too shabby. However, if you consider the fact that he is consuming 2377 calories, that means he is consuming almost 16 grams of polyunsaturates a day.

16 grams a day is still well under what the average American consumes. Anyone eating fried foods, for example, is greatly exceeding this amount. And frozen foods are full of PUFAs. As are packaged foods designed to have a shelf live exceeding a week. My guess is that 10-20 grams of PUFAs each day is a great ballpark goal.

[CobaltThoriumG]

Duke, how does your saturated fat intake break down roughly between coconut, palm, and animal, percentage wise?

[DukeNukem]

Duke, how does your saturated fat intake break down roughly between coconut, palm, and animal, percentage wise?

50-ish grams a day of coconut oil (and MCT oil, which I also use in place of coconut oil for cooking and in shakes). 10-20 grams daily from goat milk/cheese. 5-10 grams from eggs (3-4 times a week). 3-6 grams daily palm oil. Two to three handfuls of meat daily, consisting of any combination of cow meat, turkey, and/or chicken breast. Have no way of knowing what this amounts to, but will take a guess at 30-40 grams. So, on a highest-case calculation, that ~1100 cals from saturated fats. But, I don't have all of this each day, so a realistic case is probably 700 cals. Not to mention, I fast twice per week (always on my gym days, Mon and Thurs), going 24 hours without calories (including any supplements during the fast).

[HaloTeK]

I really wish fitday would show the breakdown of omega 3 and omega 6 components --- might have to contact them on that one. All I was trying to prove in that first post is that someone consuming 100-200mg of DHA or the like really wouldn't be altering their omega 3 to omega 6 ratio.

Someone still needs to resolve the earlier study I mentioned where omega 6 intake actually had anti-inflammatory behavior?! Maybe omega 6 intake matters less when insulin levels are kept low ---

Also, this all goes along with the fact that when insulin is kept low, saturated fat intake doesn't really affect you much. I would also say that saturated fat intake doesn't matter much if you are very low weight with decent muscle mass. But, like I've mentioned before, your tissues like a certain percentage of mono to saturated fats, and it's actually close to impossible to change that ratio (you can however increase polyunsaturates in your tissues) If monos make up around 55% of your tissues, it doesn't make sense to have a saturated fat content in your diet over 30-40%.

Edited by HaloTeK, 23 December 2008 - 08:08 PM.

[paba]

In a nutshell (get it? ), our diets were never this high in Omega-6. The overall balance of Omega-6 / Omega-3 PUFA is important to health: an excessively high ratio promotes destructive inflammation. Due to our recent astronomical Omega-6 consumption, which is basically impossible to avoid if you eat meat (because your meat was fed Omega-6 containing grain all its life, and is now laden with it), the only option we really have to balance the Omega-6 / Omega-3 ratio is to increase the Omega-3 side. The increased intake of Omega-3 may not be ideal for overall longevity but represents the lesser of two evils, compared to letting Omega-6 PUFA run rampant.

It depends on the type of meat. Ruminants don't incorporate a lot omega-6 into their body fat, even if they are grain fed. It's because they have bacteria in their ruman that can convert unsaturated fatty acids into saturated fatty acids. Beef and lamb fat are therefore always very low PUFA. Beef fat has around 4% PUFA's and lamb around 5%. Pork and poultry fats are an entirely different story. They contain about 12 and 25% respectively. I avoid these kind of fats as much as possible. Personally, I eat a very high fat diet (around 60% of calories), but I eat basically saturated and mono-unsaturated fatty acids. My main dietary fats are coconut oil (1% PUFA's), macadamia nut oil (2% PUFA's), milk fat (3% PUFA's), cocoa butter (3% PUFA's), lamb and beef fat.

Edited by paba, 23 December 2008 - 08:19 PM.

[DukeNukem]

In a nutshell (get it? ), our diets were never this high in Omega-6. The overall balance of Omega-6 / Omega-3 PUFA is important to health: an excessively high ratio promotes destructive inflammation. Due to our recent astronomical Omega-6 consumption, which is basically impossible to avoid if you eat meat (because your meat was fed Omega-6 containing grain all its life, and is now laden with it), the only option we really have to balance the Omega-6 / Omega-3 ratio is to increase the Omega-3 side. The increased intake of Omega-3 may not be ideal for overall longevity but represents the lesser of two evils, compared to letting Omega-6 PUFA run rampant.

It depends on the type of meat. Ruminants don't incorporate a lot omega-6 into their body fat, even if they are grain fed. It's because they have bacteria in their ruman that can convert unsaturated fatty acids into saturated fatty acids. Beef and lamb fat are therefore always very low PUFA. Beef fat has around 4% PUFA's and lamb around 5%. Pork and poultry fats are an entirely different story. They contain about 12 and 25% respectively. I avoid these kind of fats as much as possible. Personally, I eat a very high fat diet (around 60% of calories), but I eat basically saturated and mono-unsaturated fatty acids. My main dietary fats are coconut oil (1% PUFA's), macadamia nut oil (2% PUFA's), milk fat (3% PUFA's), cocoa butter (3% PUFA's), lamb and beef fat.

Cocoa butter is another greatly unappreciated fat, IMO. It's quite expensive, though.

[shifter]

It used to be the case that 'cholesterol' was very bad for you and should be avoided in the diet. Now they recognise there are good forms and bad forms. Soon the day will come where they stop branding all saturated fats as 'bad' merely because they are saturated, and say that there are good forms of saturated fats and bad forms of it as well.

The heart foundation does not recommend the consumption of coconut oil, despite many of its benefits to health. Considering the makeup of coconut oil shares a large part of whats in breast milk (lauric acid) its a wonder they haven't recommend against the use of breast milk. Perhaps one day they'll put the blame on mothers of obese children to feeding for too long on breast milk so they can peddle off some soy infant formulas instead.

When I see the heart foundation tick of approval, I see it as a caution, for I have seen that tick on bottles of highly refined vegetable oils that are 5% trans fat. (which will only be increased the longer its exposed to light, oxygen and eventually heat in a frypan).

I had gone through a phase where I was eating at least 1kg of extra virgin coconut oil every month. Did not gain any weight and cholesterol levels were fine Which I knew they would be because the coconuts do not have livers

I really wish fitday would show the breakdown of omega 3 and omega 6 components --- might have to contact them on that one. All I was trying to prove in that first post is that someone consuming 100-200mg of DHA or the like really wouldn't be altering their omega 3 to omega 6 ratio.

Someone still needs to resolve the earlier study I mentioned where omega 6 intake actually had anti-inflammatory behavior?! Maybe omega 6 intake matters less when insulin levels are kept low ---

Also, this all goes along with the fact that when insulin is kept low, saturated fat intake doesn't really affect you much. I would also say that saturated fat intake doesn't matter much if you are very low weight with decent muscle mass. But, like I've mentioned before, your tissues like a certain percentage of mono to saturated fats, and it's actually close to impossible to change that ratio (you can however increase polyunsaturates in your tissues) If monos make up around 55% of your tissues, it doesn't make sense to have a saturated fat content in your diet over 30-40%.

[stephen_b]

Yeah but... what about all the bloody omega-6's in peanuts, or almost any nut, for that matter? Considering my nut intake of late, I'm going to need an awful lot of n-3's to balance that out. I had been naively thinking that nuts could be treated as something of a staple. That doesn't seem like such a hot idea in light of the n-6 content. (Except macadamia nuts, which are quite tasty, but way more expensive than peanuts.)

Peanuts are legumes, though that probably doesn't change your argument. Here's the omega 6/ omega 3 ratio for some legumes:

peanut butter: high (negligible omega 3s)
cooked lentils: 3.7
cooked red beans: 0.63 (wow, surprise for me here, and I love them too)
cooked split peas: 4.9
black beans: 1.2

StephenB

[Shepard]

My guess is that 10-20 grams of PUFAs each day is a great ballpark goal.

It's estimated the daily intake is 15-20 grams daily of just LA.

P.M. Kris-Etherton, D.S. Taylor, S. Yu-Poth, P. Huth, K. Moriarty, V. Fishell, R.L. Hargrove, G. Zhao and T.D. Etherton, Polyunsaturated fatty acids in the food chain in the United States, Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 71 (2000), pp. 179S–188S.

[DukeNukem]

My guess is that 10-20 grams of PUFAs each day is a great ballpark goal.

It's estimated the daily intake is 15-20 grams daily of just LA.

P.M. Kris-Etherton, D.S. Taylor, S. Yu-Poth, P. Huth, K. Moriarty, V. Fishell, R.L. Hargrove, G. Zhao and T.D. Etherton, Polyunsaturated fatty acids in the food chain in the United States, Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 71 (2000), pp. 179S–188S.

LA is a percentage of total PUFAs people consume, and if I remember right it's about 25% or so of the typical PUFA intake. LA is definitely the worst of the PUFAs.

[HaloTeK]

My guess is that 10-20 grams of PUFAs each day is a great ballpark goal.

It's estimated the daily intake is 15-20 grams daily of just LA.

P.M. Kris-Etherton, D.S. Taylor, S. Yu-Poth, P. Huth, K. Moriarty, V. Fishell, R.L. Hargrove, G. Zhao and T.D. Etherton, Polyunsaturated fatty acids in the food chain in the United States, Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 71 (2000), pp. 179S–188S.

LA is a percentage of total PUFAs people consume, and if I remember right it's about 25% or so of the typical PUFA intake. LA is definitely the worst of the PUFAs.

LA the worst? Seems that way--- somebodies got to address this study and see if it is just an isolated case:

Too much linoleic acid promotes inflammation—doesn't it?


Kevin L. Fritsche<a
University of Missouri, Columbia, MO, USA


Controversy exists over how much linoleic acid (LA) should be consumed in a healthy diet. Some claim that high LA intake promotes inflammation through accumulation of tissue arachidonic acid (AA) and subsequent production of pro-inflammatory lipid mediators. Here the author reviews the current available evidence from human studies that address this issue. The data indicate that high LA in the diet or circulation is not associated with higher in vivo or ex vivo pro-inflammatory responses. Surprisingly, several studies showed that those individuals consuming the highest level of LA had the lowest inflammatory status. Recent findings suggest that LA and AA are involved in both pro- and anti-inflammatory signaling pathways. Thus, within the ranges of intake that are achievable for most human populations, the evidence do not support reducing LA intake below current consumption levels.

Edited by HaloTeK, 23 December 2008 - 09:23 PM.

[Shepard]

Ha, nevermind that paper. I went back to examine the source from the review and they're quoting two observational studies done from 1987-1991. Here is their quote:

Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) contribute 7% of total energy intake and 19–22% of energy intake from fat in the diets of adults, a level that is within recommended intakes for both men and women. Linoleic acid (18:2n–6) is the major PUFA, comprising 84–89% of the total PUFA energy, whereas -linolenic acid (ALA; 18:3n–3) contributes 9–11% of the total PUFA energy (equivalent to 1.1–1.6 g/d) in the diets of the adult population (Table 1).

I imagine our PUFA intake has increased somewhat from that time period.

Edited by shepard, 23 December 2008 - 09:52 PM.

[Shepard]

LA the worst? Seems that way--- somebodies got to address this study and see if it is just an isolated case:

Here are the main papers they cite to make their case.

Full papers:
http://jcem.endojour...nt/91/2/439.pdf
http://circ.ahajourn...t/108/2/155.pdf
http://jn.nutrition....t/137/4/945.pdf
http://www.jbc.org/c...80/51/42464.pdf

Abstracts: (PMIDs)
9507233
11795850
17876199
17090225

[HaloTeK]

I wonder how many polyunsaturates were comsumed by individuals in the Kitava Study by Staffan lindeberg. Their diet was high in carbohydrates (up to 70%), and low in fats (~20%). There is more and more evidence these days that paleo humans ate starchy tubers (as evidence on teeth) (for around 1-2 million years) (A tuber rich diet would have also been rich in vitamin a precursors!). Kitava individuals show sickinly low insulin levels for their amount of carbohydrates. Their coconut and starch rich diet would have been low in omega 6s, with the exception being any kind of nut they might have ate. And of course they ate fish once in a while, but because the waters are warm there, the omega 3 content would have been low. So I would estimate that they might of have anywhere from a 1:4 to 1:9 ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 in their diet based on variability of the veggies,tubers, nuts, and coconut.

And btw, the kitavas' are the best group for paleo people to look at who say carbs are just the enemy and age you faster. I would wager that someone on a 30% protein, 60% fat, 10% carb diet would almost certainly have higher insulin levels than a Kitava on a isocaloric diet because of the insulin producing effects of having higher protein levels and higher growth hormone levels.

Higher fat diets seem to clog my brain and make me sluggish, not to mention that I feel the insulin producing effects of high fat/high protein diets vs low glycemic Kitava like diets. I always find it a little hard to believe that high protein consuming individuals don't have some form of heartburn or heaviness from a higher fat diet.

Lastly, the higher carb diet of the kitava's allows the body to use what it wants from the carbs, and then preferentially turn extra carbs into saturated fat (which spares the individual from having to count high polyunsaturated fats from different sources, your body knows best!) As long as you don't overconsume calories and don't let yourself have extra weight, you will never have a problem with carbs because your overall insulin will be low.

What to take from this?

Let your body make its own fats from precursors and exercise caution with fatty acid supplements.

If your body wants to make saturated fats from carbs, let it do it.
If your body wants to make DHA or EPA from ALA, let it do it.
If your body wants to make Vitamin D from sunlight, get it from sunlight.

Avoid sugar, keep insulin low (most of you know how), exercise, and avoid unnatural fatty acids in supplements unless you really have an imbalance.

[Shepard]

One issue that comes up when comparing the diets of indigenous cultures and applying it to modern society is the differences in activity levels. Norepinephrine inhibits insulin release to a large degree, and norepinphrine could be elevated a large chunk of the time depending on the type of activity. That said, I'm not familiar with the Kitava people and their lifestyle.