50 replies to this topic

[nameless]

I'm not sure if Relentless still sells the mix or not. But you can look it over at AOR's site:
http://www.aor.ca/ht...ducts.php?id=57

and then find someone who sells it. You can order from Canadian companies, if need be.

As for making your own multi supplement, the snag I ran into (for what I wanted), was the minerals + B vitamins. B complexes are usually are a lot higher than the RDA... way higher. I didn't really see a need for 500-1000% RDA for some of the Bs. And multi-mineral supplements tend to have a ton of calcium (not sure if men really need to supplement calcium) and quite often they'd have iron too. FamilE, CarotenALL and maybe Tocosorb look like real good replacements for A + E though. Some sort of D + K2 usually needs to be supplemented extra regardless.

[FunkOdyssey]

As for making your own multi supplement, the snag I ran into (for what I wanted), was the minerals + B vitamins. B complexes are usually are a lot higher than the RDA... way higher. I didn't really see a need for 500-1000% RDA for some of the Bs. And multi-mineral supplements tend to have a ton of calcium (not sure if men really need to supplement calcium) and quite often they'd have iron too.

I ran into the same snag (too many b-vitamins in the b-complex, too much calcium in the mineral complex), that's why I was so pleased with the Carlson B-Compleet w/ Vit C and Now Multi-Minerals. If you took 1 tablet of the Carlson B-Compleet you would not get more than 250% of the RDA of any b-vitamin, and a dose of 3 capsules of Now Multi-minerals contains only 375mg of calcium, and no iron.

[nameless]

You are right regarding B-compleet and now multi-minerals -- they aren't too bad. Weird thing about the Now minerals product is that their tablet form is different than capsule. I was looking up their tablet version, which had 110% of iron + 100% calcium per 2 tablets. The capsule version is much more male friendly. There might be a small issue with the form of niacin used in B-compleet (niacinamide), but at that dosage, it's probably okay (I think).

I'm not sure if it'd be cost effective in my case, since I only use a partial dose of AOR Multi anyway, but it could be a viable alternative. But for full dose people, it probably works out close (or less) to what a full dose of Core would cost, and you can pick and choose your dosages better.

Edited by nameless, 15 January 2009 - 09:56 PM.

[Sillewater]

The vitamin E thing about multis annoys me too. Almost every brand out there feels more is better, so you end up with 100-400IU of alpha E only. And the brands that have a semi-acceptable amount (RDA level), tend to be lousy One-A-Day drugstore varieties. They also tend to be high on vitamin A too, for some reason.

I've found that AOR multi-basics is reasonably priced (sorta) if you don't take a full dose. So take 1-2 capsules/daily instead. At 1-2 caps daily, it runs me about $12/month. Another alternative may be a partial dose of AOR core. Or if you prefer powders, just get AOR mix and use a 1/2 dose of that.

You could also just make up your own multi by mixing and matching separate vitamins, but when I last priced that, it cost a lot more than a partial dose of AOR.

Here's the regimen I have my fiancee on:

Breakfast-
Carlson B-Compleet w/ Vit C: 1 tablet
Now Multi-Minerals: 1 capsule
Now EGCG (Green Tea Extract): 1 capsule
Jarrow Methyl B-12: 1mg

Dinner-
Carlson B-Compleet w/ Vit C: 1 tablet
Now Multi-Minerals: 1 capsule
Now EGCG (Green Tea Extract): 1 capsule
Now Vitamin D: 2000iu
Now Vitamin A: 10,000iu
Jarrow FamilE: 1 gelcap
LEF Advanced K2 Complex: 1 gelcap

Cost: $28.58 monthly (through iherb). This is what I would take as a "multivitamin" I was age 20 and had nothing wrong with me (she's 21). Maybe another capsule of the Now Multi-Minerals for a larger male, that's all I would change. If someone were scared of preformed Vitamin A or wanted extra carotenoids they could replace/augment that with a Jarrow CarotenALL gelcap, monthly cost would then be $35.

Yea, you guys mentioned all the problems I had looking for a multi-vitamin.

Funk, what you put together there seems really good, I'll probably stick with that, and it doesn't seem too expensive, and if I track what types of foods I eat I can vary the size of the dosages each day, thus making it even cheaper.

I always had trouble figuring out the Vitamin A and Vitamin D ratio. According to what you put together, you have a 4:1 ratio there. I realize that the ratio will be based on what my 25(OH)D serum level will be like, but for now when I do not have enough money to pay for a blood test (will have to wait a couple months), should I be taking that much Vitamin A? I would rather stay away from carotenoids, considering in your recent post, they may cause more oxidative stress, which is also what I read from some papers.

As far as the Vitamin C goes, I think I will continue taking it at night for now. And I take IP6 on an empty stomach in the afternoon, so hopefully with my diet the iron level won't jump too high.

I have found that taurine has helped we a lot with performance, I do HIIT, and it seems to be much easier then before, if I include taurine in the pre-workout period. I'm hoping to get some beta-alanine soon, but its also very expensive.

Even though multi-vitamins have niacinamide, can't we offset that with higher intakes of quercetin and green tea extract, so that the SIRT1 gene doesn't become inhibited too much?

I will have to change my regimen soon.

[FunkOdyssey]

I always had trouble figuring out the Vitamin A and Vitamin D ratio. According to what you put together, you have a 4:1 ratio there. I realize that the ratio will be based on what my 25(OH)D serum level will be like, but for now when I do not have enough money to pay for a blood test (will have to wait a couple months), should I be taking that much Vitamin A? I would rather stay away from carotenoids, considering in your recent post, they may cause more oxidative stress, which is also what I read from some papers.

The level at which Vitamin A would become toxic or even somewhat detrimental, when supplementing with 2000iu Vitamin D, should be ridiculously high.

Check this out: http://www.westonapr...mina-osteo.html

Here's a summary of what the paper covers:

A more careful consideration of the research suggests, however, that what is at issue is not an excess of vitamin A, but an imbalance between vitamin A and other nutrients in the diet, especially vitamin D. Human and animal evidence strongly suggests that vitamin A can only exert harm against the backdrop of vitamin D deficiency, that sufficient levels of vitamin A are even higher than once thought, and that supplementing with carotenes is neither an adequate nor a safe way to achieve these optimal levels - all of which are consistent with and supportive of Price's timeless findings.

About niacinamide, I don't think that dose of 50-100mg daily is large enough to do much of anything with SIRT1, and may in fact increase SIRT1 expression by increasing the NAD/NADH ratio. Niacin is not necessarily any better or different, because a large portion of ingested nicotinamide is converted into niacinamide. There are also doubts surfacing about the significance of SIRT1 in general.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 16 January 2009 - 12:39 AM.

[Dmitri]

I'm not sure if Relentless still sells the mix or not. But you can look it over at AOR's site:
http://www.aor.ca/ht...ducts.php?id=57

and then find someone who sells it. You can order from Canadian companies, if need be.

As for making your own multi supplement, the snag I ran into (for what I wanted), was the minerals + B vitamins. B complexes are usually are a lot higher than the RDA... way higher. I didn't really see a need for 500-1000% RDA for some of the Bs. And multi-mineral supplements tend to have a ton of calcium (not sure if men really need to supplement calcium) and quite often they'd have iron too. FamilE, CarotenALL and maybe Tocosorb look like real good replacements for A + E though. Some sort of D + K2 usually needs to be supplemented extra regardless.

Thanks for the link, though isn't ordering supplements from other countries a problem with customs? Some European mentioned this on another thread.

[Dmitri]

The vitamin E thing about multis annoys me too. Almost every brand out there feels more is better, so you end up with 100-400IU of alpha E only. And the brands that have a semi-acceptable amount (RDA level), tend to be lousy One-A-Day drugstore varieties. They also tend to be high on vitamin A too, for some reason.

I've found that AOR multi-basics is reasonably priced (sorta) if you don't take a full dose. So take 1-2 capsules/daily instead. At 1-2 caps daily, it runs me about $12/month. Another alternative may be a partial dose of AOR core. Or if you prefer powders, just get AOR mix and use a 1/2 dose of that.

You could also just make up your own multi by mixing and matching separate vitamins, but when I last priced that, it cost a lot more than a partial dose of AOR.

Here's the regimen I have my fiancee on:

Breakfast-
Carlson B-Compleet w/ Vit C: 1 tablet
Now Multi-Minerals: 1 capsule
Now EGCG (Green Tea Extract): 1 capsule
Jarrow Methyl B-12: 1mg

Dinner-
Carlson B-Compleet w/ Vit C: 1 tablet
Now Multi-Minerals: 1 capsule
Now EGCG (Green Tea Extract): 1 capsule
Now Vitamin D: 2000iu
Now Vitamin A: 10,000iu
Jarrow FamilE: 1 gelcap
LEF Advanced K2 Complex: 1 gelcap

Cost: $28.58 monthly (through iherb). This is what I would take as a "multivitamin" I was age 20 and had nothing wrong with me (she's 21). Maybe another capsule of the Now Multi-Minerals for a larger male, that's all I would change. If someone were scared of preformed Vitamin A or wanted extra carotenoids they could replace/augment that with a Jarrow CarotenALL gelcap, monthly cost would then be $35.

That seems like a good regimen but it's too many pills; though I think I may have found a good multi on vitacost which has 30 IU of E and contains no iron or Vitamin K; which is good since I already take a K2 supplement.

I want to know what you think of the brand and content so here's the link: http://www.vitacost....alth-90-Tablets

Also, I have a question about fat soluble vitamins, is it true that it's better to take them in gel cap form? I'm currently taking Source Naturals K2 which also contains D3 and Natto extract but I was concerned about it's absorption since it's in tablet form. Your insight will be greatly appreciated.

I apologize Stillwater for high jacking your thread, but I thought it'd be better to ask the question here instead of making a new thread.

[FunkOdyssey]

Also, I have a question about fat soluble vitamins, is it true that it's better to take them in gel cap form? I'm currently taking Source Naturals K2 which also contains D3 and Natto extract but I was concerned about it's absorption since it's in tablet form. Your insight will be greatly appreciated.

It is certainly better to take them in a gel cap form pre-dissolved in oil if you are after maximum bioavailability. I do not have data on exactly how much difference it would make, although I bet we could find that if anyone spends a little time looking. All of the lipid soluble vitamins are best delivered this way, which is another reason I prefer my homebrew "multivitamin" to Ortho-Core.

[nameless]

Thanks for the link, though isn't ordering supplements from other countries a problem with customs? Some European mentioned this on another thread.

I never had a problem ordering from Canadian companies before. If a concern, you can check with them before ordering -- they usually have some sort of policy regarding guaranteed delivery, etc.

I want to know what you think of the brand and content so here's the link: http://www.vitacost....alth-90-Tablets

To me, it has too much in the way of Bs, especially that amount of Riboflavin. And since it's a single tablet, and it doesn't mention the source of beta carotene, I'll also assume it's the synthetic form. The only multi I've found as a single tablet, that lists natural mixed carotenes on the label, is a Rainbow Light multi -- but it has different flaws.

[Dmitri]

Thanks for the link, though isn't ordering supplements from other countries a problem with customs? Some European mentioned this on another thread.

I never had a problem ordering from Canadian companies before. If a concern, you can check with them before ordering -- they usually have some sort of policy regarding guaranteed delivery, etc.

I want to know what you think of the brand and content so here's the link: http://www.vitacost....alth-90-Tablets

To me, it has too much in the way of Bs, especially that amount of Riboflavin. And since it's a single tablet, and it doesn't mention the source of beta carotene, I'll also assume it's the synthetic form. The only multi I've found as a single tablet, that lists natural mixed carotenes on the label, is a Rainbow Light multi -- but it has different flaws.

I see thanks for the info.

[Sillewater]

I apologize Stillwater for high jacking your thread, but I thought it'd be better to ask the question here instead of making a new thread.

Don't worry about it.

The K2 is expensive. From the Heart Scan Blog Dr. Davis mentions that Natto is a good source. I was wondering what you guys had to say about soy. Fermented is ok right?

Thank Funk for the Weston Price article, I did read that a while ago (still combing through all the awesome articles), so yea, I guess I don't need to worry about that.

The Conclusion: There is not good multivitamin, make your own like Funk.

[Sillewater]

If someone were scared of preformed Vitamin A or wanted extra carotenoids they could replace/augment that with a Jarrow CarotenALL gelcap, monthly cost would then be $35.

What is wrong with preformed Vitamin A?

[FunkOdyssey]

In the context of Vitamin D deficiency, normal and relatively innocent intake of preformed vitamin A leads to bone resorption, loss of bone density, etc. Its a big problem (with an easy solution) for older women.

[Sillewater]

In the context of Vitamin D deficiency, normal and relatively innocent intake of preformed vitamin A leads to bone resorption, loss of bone density, etc. Its a big problem (with an easy solution) for older women.

I see, thanks for the reply.

[Sillewater]

Just wanted to update a blood test I had.

I haven't gotten a lipid profile yet, because the doctor won't give me one yet.

But I did get a vitamin D test. It was 117 nmol/L (46ng/mL). Very happy with this result. I took 6000IU of tablets per day. I ran out, and now I have vitamin D drops in olive oil. Hope it works well too.

[kismet]

I took 6000IU of tablets per day. I ran out, and now I have vitamin D drops in olive oil. Hope it works well too.

It will work better. Do not take the same amount of IUs with the new formulation. Your level is great as is, I wouldn't recommend going much higher than 50ng/ml, but 6000IU of an oil-based formulation will give you anything from 70-100++ ng/ml.

[Sillewater]

I took 6000IU of tablets per day. I ran out, and now I have vitamin D drops in olive oil. Hope it works well too.

It will work better. Do not take the same amount of IUs with the new formulation. Your level is great as is, I wouldn't recommend going much higher than 50ng/ml, but 6000IU of an oil-based formulation will give you anything from 70-100++ ng/ml.

Yea, I was thinking that. I think I'll just take 4000IU per day, since each drop is approximately 2000IU.

[Sillewater]

My Lipid Profile/Fasting Glucose/Vitamin D

As of March 18th 2009
Fasting Glucose 77
Cholesterol 217
HDL 64
LDL 142 (calculated)
Triglycerides 55

As of March 13th 2009
Vitamin D 46 ng/mL

Pretty happy with these results, now I just have to work on the HDL levels and lower the triglycerides more. Will try and get Lp(a) and CRP tests in the future. I have been doing IF and low-carb/high-fat diet for 3 months now, I have no idea what my results were before.

How do I raise my HDL? I'll start upping my intake of coconut oil alot.

[kismet]

Pretty happy with these results, now I just have to work on the HDL levels and lower the triglycerides more. Will try and get Lp(a) and CRP tests in the future. I have been doing IF and low-carb/high-fat diet for 3 months now, I have no idea what my results were before.

Why not lower LDL (or get some real measurement like particle size and not the "Friedewald guess")? Aim for 60/60/60 (Dr. Davis) or IMHO which is even better >60/<60/<60 (HDL/LDL/trig).

[Matt]

Fasting Glucose 77
Cholesterol 217
HDL 64
LDL 142 (calculated)
Triglycerides 55

You're consuming lots of saturated fats? You can lower LDL and get optimal HDL by consuming things like EVOO and Fish oils and avoiding saturated fat. Which does raise HDL, but also LDL. I had a 50% increase in HDL from my last measurements here http://www.matthewla...com/results.htm by increasing good fats. I usually get no more than 6g of SF per day. Clearly your TG's, HDL and Glucose are good, I think you could decrease your risk by lowering LDL in my opinion.

Total Cholesterol 3.7 (144mg/dl)
Triglycerides 0.6 (53mg/dl)
HDL Cholesterol 1.5 (59mg/dl)
LDL Cholesterol 1.9 (74mg/dl)
Total Cholesterol : HDL Ratio 2.5

Edited by Matt, 23 March 2009 - 05:09 AM.

[Sillewater]

Fasting Glucose 77
Cholesterol 217
HDL 64
LDL 142 (calculated)
Triglycerides 55

You're consuming lots of saturated fats? You can lower LDL and get optimal HDL by consuming things like EVOO and Fish oils and avoiding saturated fat. Which does raise HDL, but also LDL. I had a 50% increase in HDL from my last measurements here http://www.matthewla...com/results.htm by increasing good fats. I usually get no more than 6g of SF per day. Clearly your TG's, HDL and Glucose are good, I think you could decrease your risk by lowering LDL in my opinion.

Total Cholesterol 3.7 (144mg/dl)
Triglycerides 0.6 (53mg/dl)
HDL Cholesterol 1.5 (59mg/dl)
LDL Cholesterol 1.9 (74mg/dl)
Total Cholesterol : HDL Ratio 2.5

Well, the LDL measurement for me is useless, and it seems it'll be pretty hard for me to get a direct measurement, so I'm just going to focus on triglycerides, HDL, and total cholesterol. I do take fish oil, and I take EVOO when I eat my salad.

But isn't coconut oil best for raising HDL (especially the lauric acid), and there's evidence to show that palmitic acid also raises HDL (just not to the extent lauric acid does). I think if I continue on this diet, my HDL will get higher.

I am curious, does CR cause increase in HDL? Because exercise does increase HDL (due to adaptation?) does CR work the same way?