149 replies to this topic

[dachshund]

http://www.twincitie...2551?source=rss

Here is an interesting study that caught me by surprise, however it reminded me of Duke's precient addition of K2 to his All-Star supplement list. Do any of you have any ideas on what the mechanism of arterial plaque build-up in marathon runners may be caused by, and would K2 be effective in mitigating this risk. I am not a marathoner, but run 5 - 10 miles four or five days a week. I love running and this report will likely not change my behavior, however I do currently take a LE Super K gel tab three times a week and wonder if this is enough to lower the risk of plaque build-up.

As usual, thanks for your input! Take care.

[BioFactor]

My mistake. So would this niacin be just as likely to give me the flush as any other niacin?

Yes. I've taken that Bluebonnet brand, and gotten the flush.

I just started taking Niacin and I had a completly insane flush.

I take the Natural Factors brand.
http://www.iherb.com...blets/2652?at=0

[david ellis]

http://www.twincitie...2551?source=rss

Here is an interesting study that caught me by surprise, however it reminded me of Duke's precient addition of K2 to his All-Star supplement list. Do any of you have any ideas on what the mechanism of arterial plaque build-up in marathon runners may be caused by, and would K2 be effective in mitigating this risk. I am not a marathoner, but run 5 - 10 miles four or five days a week. I love running and this report will likely not change my behavior, however I do currently take a LE Super K gel tab three times a week and wonder if this is enough to lower the risk of plaque build-up.

As usual, thanks for your input! Take care.

Its very doubtful very much that running causes heart disease. The big surprise to folks is that running doesn't shield against heart disease. Shouldn't be a surprise because Jim Fixx died 25 years ago. The cause of heart disease is not known. There is just speculation. Current speculation features inflammation, calcium scores, and cholesterol. Friday I had a radioactive scan of my heart under stress to look for coronary blockages. A clean bill of health despite a supposedly deadly cholesterol reading of 264. My cholesterol has been high for 26 years. Sonograms of my carotid artery found no evidence of plaque, echocardiograms indicate a heart with a high ejection fraction, a strong 70 year old heart. I will be taking a calcium score test next. All this testing necessary because I have a high cholesterol that scares my doctors.

Cholesterol has dubious evidence. Out of 100 high cholesterol people, all taking statins for 3 years, two will be stricken, and one will be saved, in that 3 year window. The saved person represents the 34% reduction in risk reported. And in a strikingly similar statistical case examining high inflammation(CRP over 2, ref ratio currently 0-3) as a cause, almost identical statistics were collected. LEF has collected 14 (last time I looked) conditions that could cause heart disease.

I too take Vitamin K2. My favorite indicator of CVD and Type 2 diabetes risk though, is triglycerides. I shoot for a TG level of 50 or lower. Reducing carbs keeps TG low.

[dachshund]

Thanks for your valuable input! How does one keep their triglycerides so low? My number was 92 at my physical this past April, the doc said anything below 150 is fine. What would I need to do to lower it into the 50 range?

[stephen_b]

Thanks for your valuable input! How does one keep their triglycerides so low?

Low carb diets really lower triglycerides.

[niner]

All this testing necessary because I have a high cholesterol that scares my doctors.

David, have you looked at the size distribution of your cholesterol? VLDL?

[david ellis]

All this testing necessary because I have a high cholesterol that scares my doctors.

David, have you looked at the size distribution of your cholesterol? VLDL?

I had a VAP test recently. I am not too interested in cholesterol because it does not seem to have significant effects. I had an AB distribution of size. A-fluffy B-small, dense.

[Centurion]

Duke - you say magnesium oxide is a waste - is it not readily absorbed? Which type is preferred? Citrate?

[rwac]

Duke - you say magnesium oxide is a waste - is it not readily absorbed? Which type is preferred? Citrate?

Malate, Orotate, Taurate(Taurine has other relaxing properties), Chelate, Citrate

All more absorbable.
(Citrate is probably the least absorbable of the bunch)
Basically anything except oxide.

[BioFactor]

Duke - you say magnesium oxide is a waste - is it not readily absorbed? Which type is preferred? Citrate?

Malate, Orotate, Taurate(Taurine has other relaxing properties), Chelate, Citrate

All more absorbable.
(Citrate is probably the least absorbable of the bunch)
Basically anything except oxide.

What is wrong with mag oxide? It's included in my multi-mineral and I have never had any problems.
Here is what I use: http://www.iherb.com...lets/13835?at=0

[tunt01]

thats a really good mineral supplement. i spent a lot of time comparing them and thought it was probably the best one on iherb.

[rwac]

What is wrong with mag oxide? It's included in my multi-mineral and I have never had any problems.
Here is what I use: http://www.iherb.com...lets/13835?at=0

Here's an imminst thread:
Bioavailability & elemental % of Magnesium Types

http://ods.od.nih.go...s/magnesium.asp

Oral magnesium supplements combine magnesium with another substance such as a salt. Examples of magnesium supplements include magnesium oxide, magnesium sulfate, and magnesium carbonate. Elemental magnesium refers to the amount of magnesium in each compound. Figure 1 compares the amount of elemental magnesium in different types of magnesium supplements [28]. The amount of elemental magnesium in a compound and its bioavailability influence the effectiveness of the magnesium supplement. Bioavailability refers to the amount of magnesium in food, medications, and supplements that is absorbed in the intestines and ultimately available for biological activity in your cells and tissues. Enteric coating (the outer layer of a tablet or capsule that allows it to pass through the stomach and be dissolved in the small intestine) of a magnesium compound can decrease bioavailability [29]. In a study that compared four forms of magnesium preparations, results suggested lower bioavailability of magnesium oxide, with significantly higher and equal absorption and bioavailability of magnesium chloride and magnesium lactate [30]. This supports the belief that both the magnesium content of a dietary supplement and its bioavailability contribute to its ability to restore deficient levels of magnesium.

[nameless]

What is wrong with mag oxide? It's included in my multi-mineral and I have never had any problems.
Here is what I use: http://www.iherb.com...lets/13835?at=0

thats a really good mineral supplement. i spent a lot of time comparing them and thought it was probably the best one on iherb.

Looks pretty bleh to me.

Primarily mag oxide, which is poorly absorbed. Lots of calcium, which probably isn't necessary for men or advised, especially with the bad form of magnesium used. A bit high on the zinc to copper ratio (25 to 1) & very little selenium (10 mcg). And way too much manganese: 10mg, 5 x the RDA level.

And rwac is right, avoid mag oxide. Mag glycinate (albion), orotate, taurate, malate are all better choices.

[BioFactor]

What is wrong with mag oxide? It's included in my multi-mineral and I have never had any problems.
Here is what I use: http://www.iherb.com...lets/13835?at=0

thats a really good mineral supplement. i spent a lot of time comparing them and thought it was probably the best one on iherb.

Looks pretty bleh to me.

Primarily mag oxide, which is poorly absorbed. Lots of calcium, which probably isn't necessary for men or advised, especially with the bad form of magnesium used. A bit high on the zinc to copper ratio (25 to 1) & very little selenium (10 mcg). And way too much manganese: 10mg, 5 x the RDA level.

And rwac is right, avoid mag oxide. Mag glycinate (albion), orotate, taurate, malate are all better choices.

Can you recommend a good multi-mineral that has elemental mag in it? I thought the Bluebonnet brand was good because most of the minerals were albion.

[nameless]

Can you recommend a good multi-mineral that has elemental mag in it? I thought the Bluebonnet brand was good because most of the minerals were albion.

I'm not aware of any multi-mineral that has substantial amounts of a good type of magnesium. I'd probably recommend just getting magnesium separately. Bluebonnet does make some good mineral products, as you say -- they have an albion mag product.

[rwac]

I'm not aware of any multi-mineral that has substantial amounts of a good type of magnesium. I'd probably recommend just getting magnesium separately. Bluebonnet does make some good mineral products, as you say -- they have an albion mag product.

I found a couple of them, but they both have Iron, which is really a dealbreaker.
There's one from Swanson and another from nutricology.

Edited by rwac, 27 June 2009 - 02:16 AM.

[niner]

Can you recommend a good multi-mineral that has elemental mag in it? I thought the Bluebonnet brand was good because most of the minerals were albion.

Most of the minerals that we need are in very small quantities, but we need, relatively speaking, a ton of magnesium. That's why it's hard to get enough in a multi or a multi-mineral tablet, because the necessary magnesium compound would take up all the space. Magnesium oxide takes up the least amount of space because there's only one extra atom in the compound-- the formula is MgO. Something like Orotate, on the other hand would have you taking four horse pills in order to get the 400mg of elemental magnesium that you want. So I agree with nameless on this; don't try to get your mag in some combination pill; take it separately so that you know you are getting one of the good forms. I agree with rwac; any form except oxide is fine. (oxide is better than nothing...) Some of the counterions, like Orotate, are valuable in their own right, if you're willing to pay for them.

[rwac]

I found a couple of them, but they both have Iron, which is really a dealbreaker.
There's one from Swanson and another from nutricology.

niner's argument makes sense, both have small amounts of magnesium.
Links, if anyone's interested.

http://www.swansonvi.....4294967190+48
http://www.iherb.com...Caps/15510?at=0

Edited by rwac, 27 June 2009 - 03:35 AM.

[Sillewater]

Can you recommend a good multi-mineral that has elemental mag in it? I thought the Bluebonnet brand was good because most of the minerals were albion.

I'm not aware of any multi-mineral that has substantial amounts of a good type of magnesium. I'd probably recommend just getting magnesium separately. Bluebonnet does make some good mineral products, as you say -- they have an albion mag product.

Source Naturals, Life Minerals, No Iron, 120 Tablets

How about that one. But i also take a separate Magnesium supplement.

[nameless]

Can you recommend a good multi-mineral that has elemental mag in it? I thought the Bluebonnet brand was good because most of the minerals were albion.

I'm not aware of any multi-mineral that has substantial amounts of a good type of magnesium. I'd probably recommend just getting magnesium separately. Bluebonnet does make some good mineral products, as you say -- they have an albion mag product.

Source Naturals, Life Minerals, No Iron, 120 Tablets

How about that one. But i also take a separate Magnesium supplement.

Looks pretty good. Although someone here (forget the thread) mentioned Source Naturals was a so-so company. If you feel that the company is trustworthy, that particular multimineral looks pretty decent to me. Just take a good magnesium separately.

Edit: Just noticed it uses sodium selenite in its selenium mix. Is that the bad kind? I get selenate and selenite mixed up. Probably better if it used neither.

Edited by nameless, 27 June 2009 - 04:36 AM.

[niner]

Source Naturals, Life Minerals, No Iron, 120 Tablets

How about that one. But i also take a separate Magnesium supplement.

This one kind of sucks. It has no A, almost no D, random amounts of other things, some over and some under the RDA. This could be ok if it were done properly, but there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason behind the dosages. The horsetail is a poorly bioavailable form of silica and there isn't enough to do anything anyway.

[stephen_b]

Any thoughts on the Source Naturals product?

[nameless]

Source Naturals, Life Minerals, No Iron, 120 Tablets

How about that one. But i also take a separate Magnesium supplement.

This one kind of sucks. It has no A, almost no D, random amounts of other things, some over and some under the RDA. This could be ok if it were done properly, but there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason behind the dosages. The horsetail is a poorly bioavailable form of silica and there isn't enough to do anything anyway.

It's a mineral product, so why should it have A? I'm not even sure why it has D. The mag/calcium looks decent enough to me though, and there are no megadoses that should kill you. The selenium thing I'm not sure about though.

Now that I look at it again, I notice the suggested dosage is two daily, which would push manganese into 2x RDA. So... I wouldn't go over one daily.

Edited by nameless, 27 June 2009 - 05:06 AM.

[Dmitri]

o Vitamin C -- 2000mg daily, in divided dosages (vit C has a half-life under an hour, so its benefits are not long lasting, and therefore need to be replenished several times daily).

Actually, 6 hours after ingestion of 1 g, vitamin C blood levels have dropped enormously, but they are still 4 times higher than the steady-state value that you get from ingesting 200 mg/day. The kidneys have to maintain extra vitamin C "pumps" to keep this minimal amount of vitamin C in the blood stream. Based on this, Levin at NIH concluded that nature only wants us to have 200 mg/day and claimed Linus Pauling was not privy to this "new information". However, 20 years before the Levin research, Linus Pauling had used the exact same data (200 mg/day gives steady-state blood levels) to argue that since there is evolutionary pressure to remove the burden of the vitamin C pumps, 200 mg/day should be considered an absolute minimum instead of a max. Combine this with a "paleolithic" diet that afforded several doses per day of vit C equaling 2 g/d (equal to what primates in zoos are required to get) and it seems like 2 g/d could be a more reasonable minimum for maybe 80% of the population and optimum for 20% of the population. This does not alter DukeNukem's recommendation, except to say that 500 mg 4 times a day is a lot more beneficial over a larger portion of the day than simply saying "benefits are not long lasting". I prefer 1 g 4 times per day as powder mixed in pompegranate juice, prepared once per week from surpisingly inexpensive pomegranate concentrate. Grape and orange juice works great, but not as healthy. POM tastes great, but lordy that would be expensive.

o Vitamin K2 -- a very recent superstar, especially as a regulator of calcium, and keeping it from arterial accumulation (all plaque is approx 20-25% calcium). In fact, animal studies show complete coronary calcium reversal with K2. Most people are greatly deficient. 5mg a day recommended.

Where in the world do you get 5 mg/day? I see 0.09 mg supplements.

o Niacin -- probably the best booster of HDL, which is highly protective of arterial disease. The key is to not take the no-flush version, which does not raise HDL. I take 100mg morning, and the same at night. The flushing is five minutes of discomfort I do not mind at all, because I look at it as feedback that it's working.

I sometimes take 1 g three times a day in order to get the reported 20% or so increase in HDL. I would be surprised if 100 mg twice a day did much. The flushing goes away after the first day if you take 2 g/d every day. It's amazing how many doctors don't know this. There's a lot of conflicting info on if plain niacin is harmful at all. A lot of fears were initiated years ago by liver damage from pharmaceutical preparations that included time release. Dr Hoffer says he's been giving 3 g/day to thousands of people and never seen it cause a liver problem.

o Coconut oil -- another food supplement, primarily medium length saturated fat that's processed not in the digestive tract but in the liver. Practically all animals fed coconut oil lose bodyfat, and experience reduced systemic inflammation. Its unique energy producing pathway also poses less oxidative stress on the mitochondria. I eat about 50 grams daily, often a lot more. (Must only get the extra virgin type.) This is my exclusive cooking oil, too.

50 g of oil? 450 calories? That would be 25% of my caloric intake. I would be reduced to blueberries, 2 egg whites, pomegranate juice, 1/2 can salmon, coffee/dark cocoa powder/whey protein drink "breakfast" and a handful of vitamins. Wouldn't hardly have caloric room for flax seeds and broccoli. Just kidding. I'll try 5 g or 10 g coconut oil.

o Melatonin -- this hormone is the most important brain antioxidant, with numerous other significant full-body benefits.

God that stuff used to knock me out for 20 hours. Maybe I'll give it a try again.

(Just missing this list:.... pomegranate extract, blueberry extract.)

I don't know what all they put in the "WONF" (with other natural ingredients), but pomegranate concentrate is cheaper and about 20 times more concentrated than 2 pomegranates. One blueberry extract I bought was apparently just dried blueberry.

Like stephen mentioned the .09 mg of K2 you have seen is MK-7. Carlson Laboratories sells 5mg of K2 in the MK-4 form, which is sold in higher dosages than MK-7.

[Dmitri]

Any thoughts on the Source Naturals product?

ajnast4r mentioned that Source Naturals has questionable quality:

http://www.imminst.o...o...30&start=30

"source naturals wouldnt provide my old workplace with COA...

read source natursl quality statement, paying special attention to the 'mays'
http://www.iherb.inf...inks/snsptf.pdf

now read jarrows quality statement:
http://www.jiimfg.com/quality.html

huge difference."

[nameless]

Ran across this about selenium:
http://www.nutri.com/wn/sel.html

Assuming that article is correct, selenite is the bad form. Selenate doesn't seem so great either, really.

But, since the Source Naturals product contains selenite, which may not absorb because of other minerals (and may be slightly mutagenic too), it may be a good idea to pass on that one. And it doesn't seem to be the greatest brand either.

[Sillewater]

Any thoughts on the Source Naturals product?

ajnast4r mentioned that Source Naturals has questionable quality:

http://www.imminst.o...o...30&start=30

"source naturals wouldnt provide my old workplace with COA...

read source natursl quality statement, paying special attention to the 'mays'
http://www.iherb.inf...inks/snsptf.pdf

now read jarrows quality statement:
http://www.jiimfg.com/quality.html

huge difference."

thanks for the heads up. Now I have to find another source, luckily I also have a separate selenomethionine supplement. Is there any good multi-mineral out there without iron?

Regarding the selenium, how much of it would be selenite?

I don't want anything that is over the RDI, because I eat pretty well. That's why I decided on Source Naturals, but guess I should watch out for the quality.

Edited by Sillewater, 27 June 2009 - 07:45 AM.

[Rich D]

Thanks Duke!

I revised my supplement regimen based on this thread and started an 80% paleo style diet over a year ago. A few months ago I ratcheted up my paleo diet to be closer to 95% compliant. I have not been sick in well over a year; at least a year and a half. I survived a relatively cold and snowy Minnesota winter without so much as a simple cold. I wish I could bank my sick days that I never used. Additionally, I lost some extra weight and I am back to my "ideal" weight of almost 20 years ago and I am feeling better than I have in several years!

While this post was the catalyst and primary influence on the changes that I have made to my diet and supplementation program, the contributions of many other Imminst members have helped me tweak and refine my program.

Thanks Duke and Imminst.org, you have made a difference!

Richard

[DalamarB]

What about turmeric? Nobody talks about turmeric and there are thousands of studies about the benefits of it, it has also some epigenetic activity.

[BlueCloud]

What about turmeric? Nobody talks about turmeric and there are thousands of studies about the benefits of it, it has also some epigenetic activity.

Do a search. There are hundreds of threads here about turmeric and curcumin.