31 replies to this topic

[blaman]

Hello

I am 18 year old guy. I had a growth spurt early and have pretty much finished puberty. If you look at people my age and older who were athletic when they were younger, they look different - high testosterone features - high muscle mass and more sculpted faces etc. I was a lazy kid who didnt eat much and didnt exercise/do many sports - I am 6 foot, but have very little muscle mass, 12% body fat and a chubby and non-defined face - low testosterone features.

At 18 I wont grow physically per se. But increase in testosterone will help be put on muscle mass and make my bones to become more developed (all over the body) and increase facial definition. I have been going to the gym doing a high intensity (5x5 of 3 core exercises), 3x a week. My muscle increase has been very limited (not noticible and no different on scales) although the increase in my maximum lift has been increased significantly for a beginner (squats went from 40kg to 80kg in 6 weeks). Now, I dont think I have low testosterone - I am a horny teenager and masturbate/have sex atleast once a day, I have above average body/facial hair, am not depressed or anxious, but just lazy and a bit unmotivated.

So, if I use natural methods to boost testosterone - whether herbal supplements, diet control, lifestyle changes etc - is that ok or can it have adverse effects at my age? Also, will have lead to desired results - increased muscle mass with exercise and facial/body bone growth? Anyone have anecdotal evidence of impact of testosterone boost in their teenage years? Any suggested herbal supplements to boost testosterone?

Cheers

[VampIyer]

I think I'd just stick to:

- strength training. Don't neglect the legs. Squats + proper squat form will get the testosterone pumping.
- Clean diet with a good omega 3/6 ratio and enough saturated fat. The recent forum boner seems to be Nutiva extra virgin coconut oil, which is a good source.
- basic supplement stack and possibly a basic workout stack. (Multi-V, fish oil, whey protein, and maybe some creatine monohydrate (I like micronized "creapure")).
- Good sleeping habits (regular schedule is important for hormone regulation).

- Time your foods and supplements effectively. Eat frequently, and don't be afraid of dietary fat. Keep amino acid levels high during/after workout time. You'd benefit from some carbs around your workouts as well, but whey protein will also elicit the necessary insulin response I'm sure.

Hormone balance tricky business. If you feel like taking any specific testosterone boosting supplements then be careful.

- Resveratrol seems to be harmless and may boost testosterone slightly. 98/99% pure resV seems to be the popular recommendation; I'm thinking about picking some up for myself and my dog.

The other herbal boosters (tongkat, icariin) seem more risky to me, but some people have used them with success. I wouldn't even bother with prohormones or aromatase inhibitors.

It'd be helpful to get a blood hormone panel in the near future.

Edited by VampIyer, 27 December 2008 - 05:04 AM.

[OneScrewLoose]

For a slight test boost, try looking into Cissus Quadrangularis, which should be harmless. Also good for your joints and other things. But, for the most part, I would suggest following what the above poster said, i.e. Good sleep, clean diet, and a basic stack.

[bigsend]

Go for it! See how high you can set your bar with supplementation, just do your research and don't do anything like steroids that will shut your own production of hormones down. Some supplements might do that as well. I recommend starting with ZMA, which just ensures that your body does not have a deficiency keeping you from producing maximum testosterone. I am young too and supplement just to see how horny, energetic, and aggressive I can get. You build your body in your youth, so it makes sense to maximize what you can achieve.

[OneScrewLoose]

Go for it! See how high you can set your bar with supplementation, just do your research and don't do anything like steroids that will shut your own production of hormones down. Some supplements might do that as well. I recommend starting with ZMA, which just ensures that your body does not have a deficiency keeping you from producing maximum testosterone. I am young too and supplement just to see how horny, energetic, and aggressive I can get. You build your body in your youth, so it makes sense to maximize what you can achieve.

Increasing for it's own sake is not wise. Don't try to "set the bar" as this poster is saying. Have specific goals for yourself and try to achieve that, that way you have a point of success.

[Skötkonung]

First of all, if you think that you are truly suffering from low testosterone, you should see a doctor to have your levels checked. Low testosterone, while fairly uncommon in young males, is very serious and needs to be treated by a doctor.

That said, I think you are being impatient with your body. You have essentially lived an inactive lifestyle for a very long time and you can't expect to see a radical change to your body composition over night. When I was in high school, I was about 160lbs @ 6ft and 15% body fat. I looked terrible and felt terrible - and I did it to myself because I spent so much time on the computer instead of playing sports like my classmates. Eventually I enrolled in a weight training class during my senior year, and I didn't see any immediate big changes to my physique. However, I persisted with weight training and cardio 5 days a week. A year later I was 160lbs but with much less bodyfat (around 6%).

After graduation, I started taking protein supplements, eating more calories, and lifting much heavier. Several years later, I am 185lbs, 8% bodyfat, and 6ft. I am now in the best shape of my life and couldn't be happier with the way I look. Right now I am following the primal blueprints diet.

And to add some legitamacy to my claim:

Here is me then (NWS - shirtless):
http://img.photobuck.../Picture036.jpg

Here is me now (NWS - shirtless):
http://img.photobuck.../1228081308.jpg

So just remember, be patient. You'll get there eventually.You don't need testosterone boosting supplements at your age, you need hard work!

Edited by shawn57187, 28 December 2008 - 10:08 PM.

[bigsend]

Increasing for it's own sake is not wise. Don't try to "set the bar" as this poster is saying. Have specific goals for yourself and try to achieve that, that way you have a point of success.

Are you saying he should get his test measured, take supplements, and then measure it again? The levels vary daily and throughout the day. What would a specific goal be, a test level consistently around 1000? But taking supplements and examining your well-being definitely has its own use, and I would argue that your well-being is the most important. And higher testosterone (produced naturally) contributes to well-being, increased muscle mass, and improved brain functioning. So increasing test the natural way is a very wise thing to do!

[fade]

Don't expect results overnight. Your testosterone is not the problem, it's your diet. 5x5 is a great program and I commend you for doing that. Stick with that for as long as you can, you can get results from that program for the next 5 years if you keep at it. You really need to learn about bodybuilding diet and how to put on muscle. It's hard for anyone to teach in one post and varies from person to person.

So to learn how to build your body up, best to learn from people who have done so. No offense to the other here at ImmInst, but building muscle is a bodybuilder's specialty and the guys over at www.intensemuscle.com have got it covered very well. Head over there and read as much as you can from skip, bhman, homonunculus, massive g, basically any of the mods, vets, or round table experts.

[OneScrewLoose]

Increasing for it's own sake is not wise. Don't try to "set the bar" as this poster is saying. Have specific goals for yourself and try to achieve that, that way you have a point of success.

Are you saying he should get his test measured, take supplements, and then measure it again? The levels vary daily and throughout the day. What would a specific goal be, a test level consistently around 1000? But taking supplements and examining your well-being definitely has its own use, and I would argue that your well-being is the most important. And higher testosterone (produced naturally) contributes to well-being, increased muscle mass, and improved brain functioning. So increasing test the natural way is a very wise thing to do!

Perhaps I didn't make my post to clear. I didn't mean test goals, I meant body goals. Either developing a certain amount of muscle or training for a specific sport, instead of "I want more test to be more manly and bigger," which would be the bad way to go about it. After setting a goal and training for that, then -maybe- looking into test.

Edited by OneScrewLoose, 29 December 2008 - 06:27 AM.

[Shepard]

You don't need to worry about testosterone, you need more food.

[lynx]

Testosterone is declining in populations around the world, because of xenoestrogens and Oprah, so the idea that this guy has low test is not preposterous. In fact, it is almost guaranteed.

You should see a Dr.

http://lists.dep.sta...ary/000749.html

Travison, TG, AB Araujo, AB O'Donnell, V Kupelian, JB McKinlay. 2007. A
population-level decline in serum testosterone levels in American men.
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 92:196-202.


In one of the largest study of its kind, Travison et al. report a
population-wide decline in Massachusetts's men's testosterone levels
during the last 20 years that is not related to normal aging or to
health and lifestyle factors known to influence testosterone levels.

They found that testosterone concentrations dropped about 1.2% per year,
or about 17% overall, from 1987 to 2004. The downward trend was seen in
both the population and in individuals over time.

The decline is consistent with other long-term trends in male
reproductive health, including decreases in sperm quality and increases
in testicular cancer, hypospadias and cryptorchidism.

The strongest association was observed in same-aged men from different
sampling years. For example, a 65-year-old in 2002 had lower
testosterone levels than a 65-year-old in 1987.

Edited by lynx, 29 December 2008 - 07:51 AM.

[blaman]

Starting the new year, my diet will be improved significantly and I will exercise more, sleep better and possibly, supplement with some amino acids and herbal extracts to help me along the way.

I am in the UK, so the lack of a private healthcare means that is difficult/expensive to get blood tests - they will do general blood tests - so I got my blood sample taken for general liver, thyroid, urea and blood screening purposes, but they wont specifically look for testosterone. It will cost me upwards of £100 to get a testosterone test, and I am not too keen for that.

I will post the results of my blood tests here and if it is possible to deduce anything from them about my health, and possibly about testosterone levels, it will be great.

I love this forum. Has to be the only forum where everyone who posts seems to know and actually care about helping someone. Thanks a lot guys.

[FunkOdyssey]

$20 says normal to high testosterone result

[Skötkonung]

Testosterone is declining in populations around the world, because of xenoestrogens and Oprah, so the idea that this guy has low test is not preposterous. In fact, it is almost guaranteed.

You should see a Dr.

That decline is most likely due to increased levels of obesity. Adipose tissue lowers testosterone in males.

<h2 id="atl">Obesity, low testosterone levels and erectile dysfunction</h2> M Diaz-Arjonilla^1,2, M Schwarcz^1,2, R S Swerdloff¹ and C Wang<sup>1

1</sup>Division of Endocrinology, Department of Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center and Los Angeles Biomedical Research Institute, Torrance, CA, USA

Correspondence: Professor C Wang, General Clinical Research Center, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center, 1000 W Carson Street, Torrance, CA 90803, USA. E-mail: wang@labiomed.org

²These authors contribute equally to this work.

Received 19 August 2008; Accepted 28 August 2008; Published online 9 October 2008.

Top of page
Abstract
Obesity is an important risk factor for many common diseases including cardiovascular disease (CVD), type 2 diabetes, cancer and erectile dysfunction (ED). Adipose tissues produce a number of adipokines and cytokines, which affect endothelial and metabolic function resulting in insulin resistance and the metabolic syndrome (risks factors for CVD). Both ED and metabolic syndrome improve with a reduction in body mass index (BMI). The relationships among obesity, metabolic syndrome, ED, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) and serum total and free testosterone levels are complex and often confusing to the physician. It is known that BMI is inversely proportional to serum total testosterone concentrations; low serum SHBG levels in obesity contribute to the low serum total testosterone. Recent studies show that BMI is also inversely proportional to free testosterone concentration. The characteristic low serum testosterone concentrations observed in obese men are also present in men with the metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes mellitus. A small proportion of men with ED have hypogonadism; however, the proportion increases if these men are obese with manifestations of the metabolic syndrome or type 2 diabetes mellitus. ED is a common symptom in patients with type 2 diabetes who also have low testosterone levels. This review describes the relationships between low serum testosterone concentrations and ED in obese patients and those with metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes mellitus.

<h4 class="keywords">Keywords: </h4>body mass index, androgens, metabolic syndrome, type 2 diabetes mellitus, hypogonadism, sexual dysfunction

[fade]

$20 says normal to high testosterone result

I agree in this instance. He just needs to get his diet handled.

[lynx]

Testosterone is declining in populations around the world, because of xenoestrogens and Oprah, so the idea that this guy has low test is not preposterous. In fact, it is almost guaranteed.

You should see a Dr.

That decline is most likely due to increased levels of obesity. Adipose tissue lowers testosterone in males.

Nope. Here is the abstract from the full text

Objective: The goal of this study was to establish the magnitude of population-level changes in serum T concentrations and the degree to which they are explained by secular changes in relative weight and other factors.

Design: We describe a prospective cohort study of health and endocrine functioning in randomly selected men of age 45–79 yr. We provide three data collection waves: baseline (T1: 1987–1999) and two follow-ups (T2: 1995–1997, T3: 2002–2004).

Setting: This was an observational study of randomly selected men residing in greater Boston, Massachusetts.

Participants: Data obtained from 1374, 906, and 489 men at T1, T2, and T3, respectively, totaling 2769 observations taken on 1532 men.

Main Outcome Measures: The main outcome measures were serum total T and calculated bioavailable T.

Results: We observe a substantial age-independent decline in T that does not appear to be attributable to observed changes in explanatory factors, including health and lifestyle characteristics such as smoking and obesity. The estimated population-level declines are greater in magnitude than the cross-sectional declines in T typically associated with age.

Conclusions: These results indicate that recent years have seen a substantial, and as yet unrecognized, age-independent population-level decrease in T in American men, potentially attributable to birth cohort differences or to health or environmental effects not captured in observed data.

http://jcem.endojour...t/full/92/1/196

[Skötkonung]

Nope. Here is the abstract from the full text

Objective: The goal of this study was to establish the magnitude of population-level changes in serum T concentrations and the degree to which they are explained by secular changes in relative weight and other factors.

Design: We describe a prospective cohort study of health and endocrine functioning in randomly selected men of age 45–79 yr. We provide three data collection waves: baseline (T1: 1987–1999) and two follow-ups (T2: 1995–1997, T3: 2002–2004).

Setting: This was an observational study of randomly selected men residing in greater Boston, Massachusetts.

Participants: Data obtained from 1374, 906, and 489 men at T1, T2, and T3, respectively, totaling 2769 observations taken on 1532 men.

Main Outcome Measures: The main outcome measures were serum total T and calculated bioavailable T.

Results: We observe a substantial age-independent decline in T that does not appear to be attributable to observed changes in explanatory factors, including health and lifestyle characteristics such as smoking and obesity. The estimated population-level declines are greater in magnitude than the cross-sectional declines in T typically associated with age.

Conclusions: These results indicate that recent years have seen a substantial, and as yet unrecognized, age-independent population-level decrease in T in American men, potentially attributable to birth cohort differences or to health or environmental effects not captured in observed data.

http://jcem.endojour...t/full/92/1/196

I would like to see more studies done to confirm those findings. Perhaps it has something to do with all the medications we use (such as birth control) being passed into our water supply?

Source:
http://www.scienceda...80918170628.htm

Regardless, the author of the study still suggests that lifestyle changes and a decrease in smoking are partly to blame for the lower testosterone levels. Before the OP starts spending money on supplements, he should adjust his lifestyle and see if he observes any positive changes. It sounds like given his description, that he is not suffering from many (if any) of the symptoms of low testosterone. Although I encourage him to get checked if he has any lingering doubts.

Impact of lifestyleThe findings of another study by Travison and colleagues (J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2006:doi10.1210/jc.2006-1859) indicated that health and lifestyle changes, such as developing diabetes, weight gain or loss of a spouse, can have as much impact on testosterone levels as normal aging during a short to mid-length period of about 10 years.

Changes such as weight gain, unemployment and inactivity, can be prevented and treated. Population-level changes, as demonstrated by Travison et al, are outside of an individual's control.

According to Travison, "It's the same old song and dance. For an individual man, a healthy lifestyle, being active, getting exercise may help in the long run."

So according to Travison, although we are experiencing population level declines, individuals can still maintain healthy testosterone levels by maintaining a healthy lifestyle.

Likewise, the author of the study also postulates on whether such declines could be related to other lifestyle changes that were not adjusted for during the course of the study:

http://jcem.endojour...int/92/1/44.pdf
(last paragraph, second column).

[blaman]

I would agree that diet is probably the main problem.

Any suggestions/links regarding reading about a better diet routine? There is a lot of information floating about on the internet but a lot is rather conflicting.

Roughly:
-For someone my weight (150lb), about 3-3.5k kcals
-Split into 5/6 meals a day - 8am, 11am, 1pm, 4pm, 7pm + 10pm no carb meal
-200-250g protein
-100g fat
-Rest carbs - avoiding simple carbohydrates, and focussing more on complex, low GI carbs
-Fruit and Vegetables - one element with every meal
-2-3L of water - excluding juices/other drinks a day
-Some minor supplementation (I will research this better)
-Atleast 7 hours of continuous sleep (nights in, 1am-8am... nights out 3am-10am)

Anything else?

Cheers!

[Shepard]

I generally prefer a little higher fat intake, but that looks good. You'll have to adjust Calorie levels based on your levels of progress. Don't worry about being too rigid at the beginning, flexibility is where the long-term changes are at.

[fatboy]

Unwise.

The only things my adult kid son (20 years old) takes are creatine, ZMA, and whey isolate. Don't fuck with your hormones or you could be paying the price for decades, if not for life.

I am 6 foot, but have very little muscle mass, 12% body fat and a chubby and non-defined face - low testosterone features.

I hope someday, with a lot of hard work and the help of technology, to be down to 12% bodyfat. That is not a sign of low testosterone. 32% bodyfat is a sign of low testosterone.

Be young, be happy, be well.

[Skötkonung]

I would agree that diet is probably the main problem.

Any suggestions/links regarding reading about a better diet routine? There is a lot of information floating about on the internet but a lot is rather conflicting.

Roughly:
-For someone my weight (150lb), about 3-3.5k kcals
-Split into 5/6 meals a day - 8am, 11am, 1pm, 4pm, 7pm + 10pm no carb meal
-200-250g protein
-100g fat
-Rest carbs - avoiding simple carbohydrates, and focussing more on complex, low GI carbs
-Fruit and Vegetables - one element with every meal
-2-3L of water - excluding juices/other drinks a day
-Some minor supplementation (I will research this better)
-Atleast 7 hours of continuous sleep (nights in, 1am-8am... nights out 3am-10am)

Anything else?

Cheers!

Personally I think you are taking in too many calories for your body weight and height. With the diet you posted above, you will find yourself gaining muscle and a substantial amount of fat. Try using the Harris-Benedict equation to approximate your daily caloric needs to gain weight.

http://www.bmi-calcu...edict-equation/

My guess is that you will need somewhere between 1800-2100 calories daily to build muscle without storing much fat. Try experimenting with the values to find what works best for you.

As a side note, I follow the primal blueprints diet almost religiously. You can see my results for yourself in my above post or the results of others on the primal blueprint diet blog. The nice part about primal blueprint is that it also also follows most anti-aging guidelines (low AGE content, etc). Check it out:

http://www.marksdail...imal-blueprint/

[VampIyer]

Sounds like a plan.

I don't think you'll need so many calories. I'd say 2.5k calories sounds about right. If you really do require more calories, then I think these are still good proportions:

150-175g of protein (600-700 calories)
120-150g of fat (1080-1350 calories)
100-125g of carbs (400-500 calories)

It's not quite a low-carb diet, because I think those carbs will help you in the gym. You could easily turn this into a low-carb diet, however. I'm just not sure if that would translate into lower leptin levels, and possibly lower test?

That sounds pretty good to me:

- grass-fed beef, lean turkey slices, home-made jerked meats, chicken sausages, kefir/yogurt/milk, beans and lentil vegetable soups perhaps (mix some coconut oil in there before serving).
- Salmon / other fish. Grassfed liver.
- almonds, pistachios, walnuts, pecans,
- Extra Virgin coconut oil, olive oil

- Big salads with olive oil / vinaigrette dressing (include some finely chopped walnuts, and maybe some pomegranate (works particularly well in salads) cranberries/blueberries

- steel cut oats (I've had preparations using coconut milk that tasted great). = soak oats, boil oats, add in fresh cardamon + saffron + cinnamon. Flavor with a bit of raw honey or agave or just the coconut milk/milk.

Oats contain Avena Sativa, which is said to increase free testosterone I believe. I think I've seen some studies showing increases in Test from coconut oil.

[Shepard]

The kid is 18 years old, 6 feet tall, and weighs 150lbs. He can stand 3500 Calories/day if he's even able to eat that much. The fact that he's 6' tall and weighs 150 means he's probably not going to like eating enough to put on weight anyway.

[Brainbox]

I'm having similar issues.

I don't like eating that much either. Some years ago I did think of a similar route the TS is proposing. After some research, I opted not to use any (pro) hormone substances. The risks are just to high, especially, but not only, at the age of 18. Aromatising and shutting down natural hormone production processes are already enough to decide not to use anabolics. Unfortunatly, I'm out of time now, but for the ones who can read Dutch, this is a good information source that is neutral and hence does not use the common arguments against use of (pro)hormones, but offers an opportunity to dig into the matter, to find better alternatives and to come to your own conclusion.

I did accept my (genetic) constitution and that I will stay relatively small. After using a better diet alone, combined with some additional protein and BCAA's, I at least got gains that were sort of extraordinary for my size without increasing size although enhancing definition. I takes a lot of determination, both diet and training wise. Especially to eat sufficient calories in the right mix.

Edited by Brainbox, 31 December 2008 - 12:36 PM.

[TheFountain]

You'd be surprised how one of the number one tauted health foods, I.E soy, is responsible for lower testosterone levels in american males. The reason being, soy is high in phytoestrogens. This has been speculated to cause hormonal imbalance which lowers overall serum testosterone levels in men. Progressively, over time, soy has been added to many foods and supplements in one form or another. Either in the form of preservative, emulsifiers or fillers. Now I am not sure of the use of soy as a filler in supplements effects overall hormone levels, but I think the idea is that this coupled with eating a lot of unfermented soy (tofu, soy protein isolate) will contribute to estrogenic increase and testosterone loss. Coincidentally we know through observation that the female body tends to be more agreeable to fat than the male body in terms of physical attractiveness (generally a female can still be rather shapely and attractive at 15-17% body fat) because of the way fat is distributed via reproductive estrogenic factors. This only shows that higher estrogen levels promote fat storage in males. I know from personal experience, when I was a full pledged vegan, that excessive soy intake can cause mood swings and potency issues. Once I kicked back about 95% of my soy intake and began to include a zinc supplement to repair my hormone imbalance I became quite a bit more potent again, to the happiness of my girlfriend. Here is some reading from Oregon state university research.

http://lpi.oregonsta...emicals/soyiso/

Now in terms of increasing testosterone through supplementation. I would try three things in conjunction. In the morning I would take a zinc picolinate supplement. At a later point in the day I would stack tribulus and DHEA together. Within a month or two of daily oral induction you should experience an effect. But you need to change your dietary habits extremely. I am not going to tell you specifically what diet to go on, but your caloric intake should be between 2000-3000 calories a day, at least. I cannot vouche for anything but the diet I am on currently which is a moderate fat and calorie diet. I consume no meat accept fish, whole grains, very little soy, absolutely no artificial sweeteners of any kind. Nutrient intake includes royal jelly and spirulina and I only eat organic dairy products and as much organic vegetables as possible. The only argument I can state against the high fat, high protein diet is that it is not extensively proven that it is not individual genetics that allow certain people on this diet to become lean and muscular. I am rather lean myself on my diet and have seen leaner, more muscular vegans. So genetic variation has something to do with this. But one definite constant is trans fat, artificial sweeteners like splenda, HFCS, bad carbs from processed foods and meat that is factory farmed with a lot of hormones and antibiotics is not good.

Edited by TheFountain, 31 December 2008 - 01:23 PM.

[Skötkonung]

The kid is 18 years old, 6 feet tall, and weighs 150lbs. He can stand 3500 Calories/day if he's even able to eat that much. The fact that he's 6' tall and weighs 150 means he's probably not going to like eating enough to put on weight anyway.

I disagree.

From the BBC:
There's a common belief that people who are overweight have a slow metabolism (burn energy slowly), while thin people have a fast metabolism (burn energy quickly). This is a myth. The term 'metabolic rate' refers to the energy (calories) you expend over a day just keeping your body functioning - your heart beating and your lungs breathing, for example. This is often called the basal or resting metabolic rate. Scientists have measured the exact amount of calories overweight and healthy weight people burn while sitting or lying quietly. This was done by measuring the amount of oxygen breathed in and the amount of carbon dioxide breathed out. Results from these studies have consistently shown that overweight people use more energy to keep their bodies working. This is because they have larger bodies with bigger muscles and internal organs. However, after taking into account differences in body size, lean and obese people have been shown to have similar metabolic rates. Basal metabolic rate can be influenced by body composition. Muscle requires more energy to function than fat. As we get older, we tend to gain fat and lose muscle. This explains why basal metabolic rate tends to decrease with age. Similarly, two people of the same age and weight may have different metabolic rates if one is fitter (and has more muscle) than the other. Of course, we also use energy to move around during the day. Basal metabolic rate and the energy required for physical activity make up our total energy expenditure, or total energy needs. Your total energy needs depend very much on how active you are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...cal_myths.shtml

Given his low weight and body fat percentage, what makes you think he has a body composition that requires 3500 calories daily? At his current level of fitness, his basal metabolic rate is likely at or around 2000 calories. Slightly increasing that caloric intake to support muscle growth and provide energy for exercise is all that is required. All excess calories will just be stored as fat.

Again I refer to the Harris-Benedict formula for BMR computation.
http://en.wikipedia...._metabolic_rate

[Shepard]

Yeah, BMR means nothing for active skinny kids with NEAT through the roof.

[HaloTeK]

It's my belief that we are going to find that overall, any hormone boosted state will bring about a decline is maximal longevity.

Think Jeanne Calment (122, 4'11).

Think Asian Cultures (usually shorter than other groups, high SHBG from higher carb diets, more androgynous looking (less hormones), overall good longevity).

[TheFountain]

It's my belief that we are going to find that overall, any hormone boosted state will bring about a decline is maximal longevity.

Think Jeanne Calment (122, 4'11).

Think Asian Cultures (usually shorter than other groups, high SHBG from higher carb diets, more androgynous looking (less hormones), overall good longevity).

There is no scientific basis for this. Unless you can somehow connect the longevity gene with a decrease in hormone levels. Besides, the key is to extend youthfulness, not just life itself. I am sure many people can live to be 110 years of age, but would it be a qualitative life worth living?

[Brainbox]

... I'm out of time now, but for the ones who can read Dutch, this is a good information source that is neutral and hence does not use the common arguments against use of (pro)hormones, but offers an opportunity to dig into the matter, to find better alternatives and to come to your own conclusion....

I just discovered that this site also has an English version. Unfortunately without the neutrality of the original Dutch one. Maybe just because the track record of articles is not large enough yet, I hope..... :(

Edited by Brainbox, 02 January 2009 - 04:56 PM.