127 replies to this topic

[wydell]

On the Saturated Fat component, I think that there is good evidence that Coconut Oil is beneficial to health. I am sold on eating it every day.

I do eat beef, eggs, and butter a couple of times a week, but I am not yet sold that there are particular benefits from these sources of saturated fats.
Nor do I know whether there are detriments. I do suspect that a diet that has too much of these sources of saturated fats could lead to some inflamation.
That's just a personal observation based on making fresh whipped cream and strawberries and getting some acne. Of course, my observations could be totally off.

[DukeNukem]

duke,

i mentioned this in another thread but im unsure if you saw it... gluten contamination is significant in commercial oats. significant enough that i (any anyone), having celiac disease, can only eat oats that have been certified gluten free. it would be worthwhile to buy gluten free oats if youre avid about avoiding gluten.

That's something I wasn't aware, but will definitely pay attention to from now on. I suppose this happens because they process the oats through the same machinery.

[Luna]

I am still confused about yoghurts ^^ good for diet or bad for diet? I also noticed some yoghurts have carbs in them!

[DukeNukem]

I am still confused about yoghurts ^^ good for diet or bad for diet? I also noticed some yoghurts have carbs in them!

I don't eat much yogurt, but that's just personal taste. I think the plain yogurts, that are much lower in sugar versus the flavored ones, are the only real choice. The flavored yogurts are sugar bombs. Don't go for the low fat yogurt. Low fat means higher carbs, and getting hungry again sooner.

[DukeNukem]

Drop wheat, and reduce other grains.Decrease carbs.
Decrease Polyunsaturated fats.
Increase Protein & Saturated fat.
Meat & Eggs are good.
Cream, butter, coconut oil, palm oil are all good.

Well, no specifics here, but I guess what this amounts to is the idea that, ideally, one should eat basically only meat and fat? I admit, even were I to contemplate such a course, I'd be worried about cholesterol. ;p

Anyone have specific meals in mind?

You cholesterol may go up but that's a red herring. Your HDL will definitely improve, and your triglycerides will go down. The best achievable ratio is 2-to-1 HDL-to-triglycerides. If you reach this, your chance of a cardiovascular event is profoundly reduced.

Take a look at this super recent blog article to see what happens on a low-carb, increased fat diet:
http://www.proteinpo...of-two-studies/

[Luna]

How much carb in yoghurt is too much?

[DukeNukem]

How much carb in yoghurt is too much?

Yogurt, like milk, naturally contains some sugar. I think plain yogurt is less than 8 gram per serving. Anything over 12 is too much.

[Forever21]

Just like you did with the supplements post, it would be so nice to see a list of food that you don't eat and do eat.

[Luna]

Thanks duke! ^^

[zoolander]

re. the gut microbiota, Shep my point is that an obese individual may be contributing to an already difficult situation by increasing the firmcutes populations in their gut with yogurt and hence making themselves a lot more energy efficient in an already obesogenic environment i.e western society.

Increasing energy efficiency is ok for people like the brucester and in third world countries but it's definitely not going to help you maintain a healthy weight if your inactive and surrounded by energy dense food

[HaloTeK]

Something that is almost always overlooked on this site:

If you stay thin and active, it almost doesn't even matter what you eat!

What you should eat should be custom made to individual needs. (Even if most people have similar needs)

Carbohydrates are constantly bashed on this site and I feel that is a huge disservice. It just doesn't even sound plausible to me that there are so many low carb paleos on this site with little to no side effects from the diet. Doesn't anyone have minor allergies to animal proteins? (even if they are minor, i notice little side effects from almost all animal proteins-- such as minor dull heaches, increased mucus and other problems, most effects are so small the average person wouldn't even notice them) What about a bloated feeling from too much fat intake? How about heartburn or other side effects?

There's a reason why Asian cultures live longer. Low calorie intake coupled with high SHBG and high activity (Requires higher carb diet vs fat). Higher fat intakes promote lower SHBG, which is perfect for gaining muscle, but not so good for your hair or longevity if you think about it. (You just need to imagine that anything that promotes growth in the body is going to speed cell turnover and lower longevity--- prove me wrong)

As long as your in a slim state- carbohyrates are not going to hurt you because your bodies abiliy to deal with insulin is greater with higher intakes carbs as long as you are not fat and inactive (most americans are fat and inactive, hense the benefits of low carb diets in studies!!!). You should also watch you intake of frutose because it destroys your liver (notice how asian cultures mainly eat complex carbs, and the cultures that are most healthy eat tubers).

And until there are studies to prove me otherwise (and i want studies done for 30-40 years) - I don't trust what a high protein diet does to bones - this also goes for anyone reaching over 100grams of protein a day. Low methionine diets have been shown to increase longevity. And high vegetable diets have been shown to protect bone health (DUH!!! As is being active).

Stop torturing yourself with low carb diets if you feel shitty on them. You'll probably not be as strong as some, but you will liver longer!

LOVE ME SOME KITAVAN FOOD!!!

[Shepard]

re. the gut microbiota, Shep my point is that an obese individual may be contributing to an already difficult situation by increasing the firmcutes populations in their gut with yogurt and hence making themselves a lot more energy efficient in an already obesogenic environment i.e western society.

I agree, I think there is a good basis for that argument. Do you have an opinion on prebiotics? Feeding firmicutes vs. increasing satiety signals (1)?

I haven't checked a couple of the references to see the bodyweight of the people in the human trials, though.

Edited by shepard, 31 December 2008 - 08:16 PM.
Fixed Link.

[Shepard]

There's a reason why Asian cultures live longer. Low calorie intake coupled with high SHBG and high activity (Requires higher carb diet vs fat). Higher fat intakes promote lower SHBG, which is perfect for gaining muscle, but not so good for your hair or longevity if you think about it. (You just need to imagine that anything that promotes growth in the body is going to speed cell turnover and lower longevity--- prove me wrong)

Higher insulin levels are correlated with lower SHBG levels, unless I'm unaware of something that's going on. Now, if you're talking about FA-induced insulin resistance, I see what you mean. But, that may or may not be as big of a deal in humans vs. rats.

[zoolander]

I currently take beta-glucan and FOS as prebiotics. FOS increases the population of bifido which is not of either the bacteroidetes of firmcutes family. Definiately all for the increase in satiety hormones seen with FOS.

Beta-glucan is an interesting on. The increases in gut colonisation that results from a meal fortified with beta-glucan has been shown to affect the glycemic response and post-meal satiety of a meal eaten the following morning demonstrating the potential involvement of gut microbiota in the the metabolism of glucose (1). The concentration of the inflammatory adipocytokine IL-6 was also decreased in that study


(1) Nilsson, A.C., et al., Including indigestible carbohydrates in the evening meal of healthy subjects improves glucose tolerance, lowers inflammatory markers, and increases satiety after a subsequent standardized breakfast. J Nutr, 2008. 138(4): p. 732-9.

[HaloTeK]

There's a reason why Asian cultures live longer. Low calorie intake coupled with high SHBG and high activity (Requires higher carb diet vs fat). Higher fat intakes promote lower SHBG, which is perfect for gaining muscle, but not so good for your hair or longevity if you think about it. (You just need to imagine that anything that promotes growth in the body is going to speed cell turnover and lower longevity--- prove me wrong)

Higher insulin levels are correlated with lower SHBG levels, unless I'm unaware of something that's going on. Now, if you're talking about FA-induced insulin resistance, I see what you mean. But, that may or may not be as big of a deal in humans vs. rats.

Higher carb levels don't always mean higher insulin levels, look at Kitavans (if not other asian cultures). Yes, FA-induced insulin resistance also occurs which scares me (luckily, small amounts of coconut oil/olive oil is good here). Overall, low carb high fat diets are going to have lower SHBG than anything a higher carb diet is going to do (as evidence by better muscle mass on low carb people). Remember, I'm not trying to make it easier to lower weight, or gain muscle, or make you less hungry (low carb diets do all those things). I'm trying to make you live longer.

Here is one link of many on the topic:

http://rds.yahoo.com...nt/85/1/293.pdf

Edited by HaloTeK, 31 December 2008 - 08:24 PM.

[Shepard]

Low carb diets and more muscle? Glycogen depletion activates AMPK which inhibits protein synthesis. I'm about to run out of town, but I can provide some references the next time I get internet access.

Thanks Zoo, I'll have to check out beta-glucans. I've never really looked into them any.

[zoolander]

No problem Shep

[DukeNukem]

Stop torturing yourself with low carb diets if you feel shitty on them. You'll probably not be as strong as some, but you will liver longer!

You should read some of the low carb bloggers -- they are not torturing themselves, food-wise!

Have a look:

http://www.proteinpo...day-dec-3-2008/
http://www.marksdail...of-almond-meal/
http://www.marksdail...-hands-recipes/
http://www.marksdail...ftover-recipes/
http://www.modernfor...-happy-egg-nog/
http://www.freethean...wins-again.html
http://www.freethean...-food-pics.html
http://theorytopract...-deconstructed/
http://theorytopract...ding-rib-roast/
http://feelgoodeatin...large-meal.html
http://www.proteinpo...rmd_blog/?p=266
http://www.proteinpo...rmd_blog/?p=233

And I can go on and on.

Note that NO ONE is avoiding carbs! But, no one is eating grains/breads, pasta, rice, corn (a grain), and other basically worthless carbs. And, all of these foods are being cooked with healthy oils and fats, not processed vegetable oils. ALL of these people, btw, are in excellent shape:
43 yrs-old: http://theorytopract...e-bit-about-me/
54 yrs-old: http://www.marksdail...-washboard-abs/
71 yrs-old (middle guy, standing): http://www.arthurdevany.com/?page_id=2

They all report their health markers at the extreme end of exceptional, with HDL always 90+, and super low triglycerides. The paleo diet is easy, once you get past the week or so of grain addiction. You'll come to realize --as we all have on this diet -- that hunger levels plummet, IF fasting becomes a cinch (I'm fasting now, and feasting tonight), and the bodyfat melts away -- all the while health improves dramatically.

Yep, us low-carbers are really suffering!

Edited by DukeNukem, 31 December 2008 - 10:55 PM.

[davidd]

Duke,

Given what you said about wheat, if you had to pick between whole wheat bread and white bread for a child, what would you pick? Assume that you have to pick one or the other. And if you could choose any bread, but had to pick at least one, what would you pick?

Thanks,
David

Let's make this easy. Let's say there's a good-to-bad food scale, with the best food being a 100, and the worst food being -100, giving us a 200 point spread to play with. I'd probably put processed wheat around -80. Are you hoping I'll put whole wheat somewhere in the positive numbers? Even if just a low positive?

Not a chance.

Whole wheat gets a -75. Barely any better than processed wheat. There's no escaping gluten (an inflammatory grain protein) in any form of wheat. Most breads contain gluten, but I think buckwheat doesn't (not a type of wheat, despites its name). I know buckwheat pancakes are popular, but not sure if there's a bread made from it.

Here's the bigger question? Does your child really need bread? Or sugary products? Now is the perfect time to start your child on the right track.

Nope, I wasn't expecting you to put it in any positive range. I just wanted to get an expert's opinion.

Where do you put white bread on that scale?

Where would you put the ones that Shepard mentioned (thanks Shepard)?

We do relatively well in reducing sugar/simple carbs. But one can always do better, hence my questions. I was thinking that I might invest in a bread making machine if I could make something that would rate higher on your scale.

Thanks again. You are providing a lot of valuable information on here.

David

[rwac]

Duke,

Given what you said about wheat, if you had to pick between whole wheat bread and white bread for a child, what would you pick? Assume that you have to pick one or the other. And if you could choose any bread, but had to pick at least one, what would you pick?

Thanks,
David

Let's make this easy. Let's say there's a good-to-bad food scale, with the best food being a 100, and the worst food being -100, giving us a 200 point spread to play with. I'd probably put processed wheat around -80. Are you hoping I'll put whole wheat somewhere in the positive numbers? Even if just a low positive?

Not a chance.

Whole wheat gets a -75. Barely any better than processed wheat. There's no escaping gluten (an inflammatory grain protein) in any form of wheat. Most breads contain gluten, but I think buckwheat doesn't (not a type of wheat, despites its name). I know buckwheat pancakes are popular, but not sure if there's a bread made from it.

Here's the bigger question? Does your child really need bread? Or sugary products? Now is the perfect time to start your child on the right track.

Nope, I wasn't expecting you to put it in any positive range. I just wanted to get an expert's opinion.

Where do you put white bread on that scale?

Where would you put the ones that Shepard mentioned (thanks Shepard)?

We do relatively well in reducing sugar/simple carbs. But one can always do better, hence my questions. I was thinking that I might invest in a bread making machine if I could make something that would rate higher on your scale.

Thanks again. You are providing a lot of valuable information on here.

David

I'm going to try a low-gluten rye sourdough to see how it goes.
You can get Gluten-free bread, if you look for it...
Bread doesn't necessarily have to contain wheat, you know.

Edited by rwac, 01 January 2009 - 12:36 AM.

[TheFountain]

Do you know any females on the paleo diet? Just curious. If so, what are their biophysical reactions to such high fat and high protein intake?

Edited by TheFountain, 01 January 2009 - 12:42 AM.

[DukeNukem]

Duke,

Given what you said about wheat, if you had to pick between whole wheat bread and white bread for a child, what would you pick? Assume that you have to pick one or the other. And if you could choose any bread, but had to pick at least one, what would you pick?

Thanks,
David

Let's make this easy. Let's say there's a good-to-bad food scale, with the best food being a 100, and the worst food being -100, giving us a 200 point spread to play with. I'd probably put processed wheat around -80. Are you hoping I'll put whole wheat somewhere in the positive numbers? Even if just a low positive?

Not a chance.

Whole wheat gets a -75. Barely any better than processed wheat. There's no escaping gluten (an inflammatory grain protein) in any form of wheat. Most breads contain gluten, but I think buckwheat doesn't (not a type of wheat, despites its name). I know buckwheat pancakes are popular, but not sure if there's a bread made from it.

Here's the bigger question? Does your child really need bread? Or sugary products? Now is the perfect time to start your child on the right track.

Nope, I wasn't expecting you to put it in any positive range. I just wanted to get an expert's opinion.

Where do you put white bread on that scale?

Where would you put the ones that Shepard mentioned (thanks Shepard)?

We do relatively well in reducing sugar/simple carbs. But one can always do better, hence my questions. I was thinking that I might invest in a bread making machine if I could make something that would rate higher on your scale.

Thanks again. You are providing a lot of valuable information on here.

David

I consider "white bread" and "processed bread" to be the same thing. It's hard to find bread that does contain wheat, and/or gluten. I've seen gluten-free rice breads, but these have a very high glycemic value, meaning they'll cause a quick sugar high. Many breads turn to glucose and reach the blood faster than pure table sugar!

Again, you might look into buckwheat. Here's a hemp/buckwheat (gluten-free) bread recipe:
http://greatmasticat...ead-gluten.html

And you can even find hemp breads in some health stores, like Whole Foods. These breads are dense, protein-packed, fiber-packed breads, and as far as bread goes, hemp might be the most healthy choice. But, kids and adults both will find these hard breads a much different experience compared to the sissy white breads like Wonder bread.

[niner]

Take a look at this super recent blog article to see what happens on a low-carb, increased fat diet:
http://www.proteinpo...of-two-studies/

Impressive results in diabetics with the low carb diet, but that was limiting them to 20 grams CHO per day! As much as I'd like to, I'm not sure I could pull that off in the real world, with social situations, family life, and whatnot. How would the results look for someone eating 150 grams of carbs a day? (I'm not diabetic and have low body fat, FWIW.) Do you lose most of the benefits if you aren't in the ketogenic regime?

[DukeNukem]

Take a look at this super recent blog article to see what happens on a low-carb, increased fat diet:
http://www.proteinpo...of-two-studies/

Impressive results in diabetics with the low carb diet, but that was limiting them to 20 grams CHO per day! As much as I'd like to, I'm not sure I could pull that off in the real world, with social situations, family life, and whatnot. How would the results look for someone eating 150 grams of carbs a day? (I'm not diabetic and have low body fat, FWIW.) Do you lose most of the benefits if you aren't in the ketogenic regime?

Keep in mind that you don't need to go so hardcore on carb reduction to get great results. It's more about the type of carbs. Plus, it's about the types of fats you're getting. So much of what we've been taught is just flat-out wrong:

o Animal fats are NOT unhealthy -- they are nearly essential, in fact. And they improve health markers.
o Saturated fats should NOT be avoided -- they are essential to good health, both animal-based and plant-based saturated fats.
o Whole grains are NOT an important part of a healthy diet. In fact, they accelerate our journey to insulin resistance, and inflammation-based conditions.
o Vegetable/nut/seed oils are NOT heart healthy -- they should flat-out be outlawed, with a few exceptions that are exceedingly low in linoleic acid: olive oil, tea oil, avocado oil, macadamia nut oil, palm oil and coconut oil (there maybe others I'm not aware of).

A ketogenic diet is different to a paleo diet, and you do not to be in an elevated state of ketosis to benefit from a paleo diet. I never enter this state, except maybe in the final hours of a 24-hr fast. You can easily eat 130-150 carb grams daily on a paleo diet, just as long as they are unprocessed, high-water-volume fruits and vegetables. I rarely exceed 60-70 carb grams daily, even though I always have a large salad daily. When you do not eat starchy carbs or grain carbs, it's really hard to eat more than 80 or so carb grams daily, even though the volume might appear high. You just cannot get fat eat salad-type vegetables--they're 95% water, plus a lot of fiber (practically only 2-3% actual carbs per weight -- though fruits and berries are higher).

[randyf]

If whole grains are as bad as you claim why do numerous (all that I've seen) large prospective population studies show increased health (less diabetes, heart disease and cancer) with increased whole grain consumption.

If these studies only indicated that there wasn't increased disease that in itself would weaken your thesis, but the evidence shows that folks are healther with increased whole grain consumption.

If you believe that these studies are flawed please do more than just say they are flawed.

Also numerous metabolic ward studies (where you can monitor exactly and how much is eaten) have conclusively shown that calorie balance determines weight gain. It doesn't matter if the calories come from carbs, fat or protein. Many (but not all) free living studies have shown better weight loss with lower carb diets but this been because most folks eat less on these programs (and eating almost always good).

Regards
randyf

[nameless]

Oils questions:

I need to do some research on coconut oil before being sold on it, but as to other oils, which are best for cooking?

I normally use olive oil, except at high temperatures. What is the max. temperature for olive oil? I think the smoke point for olive oil about 350ish, so is anything below this okay?

And would high oleic sunflower oil be considered healthy to use? I think it has a higher smoke point than olive oil, and should be low in linoleic acid. So maybe it'd have some olive oil benefits due to the Oleic acid, but be good to cook with at higher temperatures?

And I'll assume grape seed oil is unhealthy, due to linoleic acid content, right? I've used this in the past on occasion, but not recently.

[rwac]

Duke, do you worry at all about Ketosis causing a false positive on a breathalyzer ?

[DukeNukem]

Oils questions:

I need to do some research on coconut oil before being sold on it, but as to other oils, which are best for cooking?

I normally use olive oil, except at high temperatures. What is the max. temperature for olive oil? I think the smoke point for olive oil about 350ish, so is anything below this okay?

And would high oleic sunflower oil be considered healthy to use? I think it has a higher smoke point than olive oil, and should be low in linoleic acid. So maybe it'd have some olive oil benefits due to the Oleic acid, but be good to cook with at higher temperatures?

And I'll assume grape seed oil is unhealthy, due to linoleic acid content, right? I've used this in the past on occasion, but not recently.

By far, IMO, the best cooking oil is tea oil. Very high in monounsaturated oil, very low in PUFAs, high in antioxidants, and has a 400+ degree smoking point, higher than olive oil and MCT oil. he next best cooking oil, though more expensive, is avocado oil. I use this, too, much more as an additive oil to dishes and salads, along with olive oil.

High oleic sunflower oil is probably good, but I have no experience with it.

Duke, do you worry at all about Ketosis causing a false positive on a breathalyzer?

Nope. I'm probably never in a significant state of ketosis. Plus, I practically never drink (and when I do it's very little), so I'd never give a cop a reason to test me for being drunk.

[frederickson]

If whole grains are as bad as you claim why do numerous (all that I've seen) large prospective population studies show increased health (less diabetes, heart disease and cancer) with increased whole grain consumption.

If these studies only indicated that there wasn't increased disease that in itself would weaken your thesis, but the evidence shows that folks are healther with increased whole grain consumption.

If you believe that these studies are flawed please do more than just say they are flawed.

Also numerous metabolic ward studies (where you can monitor exactly and how much is eaten) have conclusively shown that calorie balance determines weight gain. It doesn't matter if the calories come from carbs, fat or protein. Many (but not all) free living studies have shown better weight loss with lower carb diets but this been because most folks eat less on these programs (and eating almost always good).

Regards
randyf

the studies of whole grains are extremely flawed because they did a poor job controlling for other dietary and healthy lifestyle factors that many people who eat a lot of whole grains (in the name of being "healthy") also tend to practice. is it the grains - which are relatively nutrient-sparse, chronically raise insulin if consumed regularly, and begin the inflammatory cascade due to gluten in many individuals - or the other lifestyle factors that are actually health promoting? due to this critical flaw, i am not impressed at all by the research on grains. even less impressive are the studies of fat being dangerous, which did not even control for the junk carbs most people (not us) consume that eat a high-fat diet. think mcdonald's, a high fat meal accompanied with hundreds of empty, fat-promoting refined carbohydrates.

as for the calories in, calories out... please read gary taubes' book for a thorough dismantling of that overly simplistic hypothesis. or at least watch this video.

http://webcast.berke...webcastid=21216

Edited by frederickson, 01 January 2009 - 04:38 PM.

[nameless]

Thanks for the oily answers.

Another oily question -- what is bad about canola oil? Is it genetically modified? I used to use this, before I switched to olive oil years ago.

Second question: should we be considered about the oils used in supplements? Many use what would be considered bad oils, or at least oils high in Omega-6: soy, corn, safflower, sunflower, etc. Lots of CoQ10 supplements use soy oil.

I noticed my D3 drops use fractionated coconut oil. Coconut oil may be good, but I'm not so sure if fractionated oil is.

But perhaps the doses are too low in most supplements to even matter?