127 replies to this topic

[Ben]

Very interesting thread... good info here.

Question for Duke -- would you be willing to post your glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c) value? I'm really curious what the ideal number is, and what people should aim for. With your low sugar/carb diet, I imagine it's super low. And is using HBA1c a decent way to determine if a person's glucose/carb intake is where it should be?

Screw that, I'd be very interested to see any data you have on bloodwork you've done.

[kai73]

A Mediterranean/tropical diet, with a lot more coconut oil, would have helped even more. And a Mediterranean/tropical/paleo diet would help the most.

I am italian and have many friends in france so i do know the "mediterranean diet" very much.

Our diet is based on:
-many carbs (we eat 100gr pasta always at lunch and sometimes at dinner)
-lot of tomato products and vegetables and fruits (>5 serving/day)
-fish and/or meat (mainly at dinner)
-no junk food (no fastfoods, biscuits, candies, cocacola and so on...)

And we always cook with oil (olive oil). It's not true that in italy or france we cook with butter or lard or anything...i think i never saw an italian cooking with anything but olive oil.

I am not saying that this is healthy or not. But this is our diet. we get 40-50% of our calories from carbs (mainly from pasta at lunch).

The diet you are proposing (lot of meat and fats) is actually closer to what is used in germany and northern countries (they eat bacon, eggs, cheese for breakfast... ...they almost eat no pasta...). And to be honest, germans (i refer to girls mainly ) are nice and fit till they get to 26 then they all become damn fat.

[pobuoy]

my sister just spent a year in germany and my father used to live in germany as well. germans eat consume massive amounts of bread, potatoes, and beer, daily. from what i have been told, it is hard for a german to go a day without potatoes and/or beer.

[DukeNukem]

Very interesting thread... good info here.

Question for Duke -- would you be willing to post your glycated hemoglobin (HbA1c) value? I'm really curious what the ideal number is, and what people should aim for. With your low sugar/carb diet, I imagine it's super low. And is using HBA1c a decent way to determine if a person's glucose/carb intake is where it should be?

I'm getting my blood work done late next month, and I'll post it then.

[bran319]

Being fat is easy if you consume more calories than you expend.

The Japanese have a high grain and Polyunsaturated fat diet and live very long healthy lives.

[nameless]

A Mediterranean/tropical diet, with a lot more coconut oil, would have helped even more. And a Mediterranean/tropical/paleo diet would help the most.

I am italian and have many friends in france so i do know the "mediterranean diet" very much.

Our diet is based on:
-many carbs (we eat 100gr pasta always at lunch and sometimes at dinner)
-lot of tomato products and vegetables and fruits (>5 serving/day)
-fish and/or meat (mainly at dinner)
-no junk food (no fastfoods, biscuits, candies, cocacola and so on...)

And we always cook with oil (olive oil). It's not true that in italy or france we cook with butter or lard or anything...i think i never saw an italian cooking with anything but olive oil.

I am not saying that this is healthy or not. But this is our diet. we get 40-50% of our calories from carbs (mainly from pasta at lunch).

That's the thing that confuses me. The Mediterranean diet does consist of a decent amount of carbs, yet Italians/French have a lower incidence of heart disease than Americans.

Regarding olive oil, I thought it was best not to cook with it at high temperatures, due to oxidation?

So if Mediterraneans eat lots of carbs, cook with olive oil, and have have lower incidences of heart disease, is it due to something else in their lifestyle, such as no fast food or more fruits/vegetables? Or perhaps they have a diet better than Americans (which isn't very difficult), yet it still isn't ideal?

[JLL]

That's why it's sometimes called the "French paradox". It may be the resveratrol in red wine, or that pasta has a lower GI than bread. Olive oil is healthy, too, even though you're right about the oxidation.

I'd say the Mediterranean is far from ideal, but it is much better than what a lot of people in the world eat.

[stephen_b]

I've always liked red beans (kidney beans), and it's a bit of a comfort food for me, having grown up in Louisiana. I was happy to find out that it had an unusually good (for a bean) omega 3: omega 6 ratio of 1.6.

All of the aminos are covered when it's eaten with rice though. Not being a vegetarian, perhaps this is a non-issue, and I'd be better off eating it with leafy greens. Thoughts?

Stephen

[erzebet]

if 95% of people have gluten intolerance, then how come it is subdiagnosticated? or how come we do not have the characteristic symptoms of malnutrition?

if i can process gluten, why not eat it?

[stephen_b]

My HDL levels were quite low a little while back and this more than likely due to the low levels of saturated fat in my diet

I'd be interested in hearing whether you know what your vitamin D levels are. From yesterday's heart scan blog:

More recently, having achieved this target blood level [60-70 ng/ml 25-hydroxy] in many people, I can tell you confidently that achieving this blood level of vitamin D achieves:

--Virtual elimination of "winter blues" and seasonal affective disorder in the great majority
--Dramatic increases in HDL cholesterol (though full effect can require a year to develop)
--Reduction in triglycerides
--Modest reduction in blood pressure
--Dramatic reduction in c-reactive protein (far greater than achieved with Crestor, JUPITER trial or no)
--Increased bone density (improved osteoporosis/osteopenia)
--Halting or reversal of aortic valve disease

I've had low HDL (~40 mg/dL) for decades, and I'm looking forward to seeing whether getting my vitamin D levels into this range has helped. I've also taken to using around 3 tablespoons (~45 mL) of coconut oil daily too.

StephenB

Edited by stephen_b, 30 December 2008 - 09:24 PM.

[sthira]

if 95% of people have gluten intolerance, then how come it is subdiagnosticated? or how come we do not have the characteristic symptoms of malnutrition?

if i can process gluten, why not eat it?

Gluten intolerance is an inherited autoimmune disease -- celiac disease. To say 95% of us have it is an exaggeration. Whole grains are healthy in moderation, just don't overdo it. Quinoa, in fact, is a complete protein. Do your best to avoid processed grains. Although now that I think about it, has anyone been to the Pasta Museum outside Rome? Awesome...

[zoolander]

anca, you would be suprised. Perhaps a lot of people have low-grade inflammation without any real strong clinical signs. Adipose (fat) tissue is an endorcrine organ that secretes inflammatory cytokines into the blood stream (TNF-alpha, IL-6). As the size of the adipose tissue increases so to does the secretion of inflammatory cytokines into the surrounds (1)

[DukeNukem]

anca, you would be suprised. Perhaps a lot of people have low-grade inflammation without any real strong clinical signs. Adipose (fat) tissue is an endorcrine organ that secretes inflammatory cytokines into the blood stream (TNF-alpha, IL-6). As the size of the adipose tissue increases so to does the secretion of inflammatory cytokines into the surrounds (1)

Exactly. Even though 95% of us are genetically disposed to gluten sensitivity, there are many degrees of sensitivity, based on little genetic variations. About half of us are not at risk to develop celiac disease, yet this doesn't mean low-grade inflammation isn't driving your adrenal gland to premature failure due to constant production of your body's inflammation fireman: cortisol.

Think of this: For one-third of all people with heart disease, the first symptom is death.

So, the avoidance of grains is all about prevention. Plus, even without the gluten worry, grains are a cheap, near-useless filler food anyway. Due you pancreas a favor and just don't eat them.

Edited by DukeNukem, 31 December 2008 - 03:23 AM.

[zoolander]

IMO, it's better to have an overt condition as opposed to a low-grade situation without any apparent symptoms. Overt conditions require action that force positive change.

[ajnast4r]

duke,

i mentioned this in another thread but im unsure if you saw it... gluten contamination is significant in commercial oats. significant enough that i (any anyone), having celiac disease, can only eat oats that have been certified gluten free. it would be worthwhile to buy gluten free oats if youre avid about avoiding gluten.

[Fredas]

Alrighty, folks. Just what is everyone eating? I was reasonably comfortable with my daily meal of a turkey, broccoli and avocado sandwich (all ingredients listed) on double-fiber bread with practically no sugars. x2. I would snack on Post Shredded Wheat, which tastes precisely like crunchy cardboard. So now I'm seeing I should avoid grains? Will my sandwich become a formless mass of ingredients? Is there anything at all I could snack on between meals?

I have budgetary concerns, so I can't really afford exotic foods merely because they're one of the handful of examples of non-derision-earning consumables. It would also be grand if some measure of enjoyment could be eked from meals. My enjoyment of my current sandwich is, it must be admitted, rather minimal as it is.

So what are people eating? ;p

[rwac]

Alrighty, folks. Just what is everyone eating? I was reasonably comfortable with my daily meal of a turkey, broccoli and avocado sandwich (all ingredients listed) on double-fiber bread with practically no sugars. x2. I would snack on Post Shredded Wheat, which tastes precisely like crunchy cardboard. So now I'm seeing I should avoid grains? Will my sandwich become a formless mass of ingredients? Is there anything at all I could snack on between meals?

I have budgetary concerns, so I can't really afford exotic foods merely because they're one of the handful of examples of non-derision-earning consumables. It would also be grand if some measure of enjoyment could be eked from meals. My enjoyment of my current sandwich is, it must be admitted, rather minimal as it is.

So what are people eating? ;p

I think Duke's diet plan goes like this:

Drop wheat, and reduce other grains.
Decrease carbs.
Decrease Polyunsaturated fats.
Increase Protein & Saturated fat.
Meat & Eggs are good.
Cream, butter, coconut oil, palm oil are all good.

Edited by rwac, 31 December 2008 - 07:17 AM.

[Fredas]

Drop wheat, and reduce other grains.Decrease carbs.
Decrease Polyunsaturated fats.
Increase Protein & Saturated fat.
Meat & Eggs are good.
Cream, butter, coconut oil, palm oil are all good.

Well, no specifics here, but I guess what this amounts to is the idea that, ideally, one should eat basically only meat and fat? I admit, even were I to contemplate such a course, I'd be worried about cholesterol. ;p

Anyone have specific meals in mind?

[Luna]

What about yoghurts? like fruit yoghurts you buy at the shop, are they bad also?

[zoolander]

Umm yogurt....well that's a complicated situation. No really actually. Yogurt that contain live bacerial strains, have been shown to increase a group of energy efficient gut microbiota called firmcutes. Firmcutes microbiota digest undigestible polysaccharides which are subsequently absorbed through the gut as glucose. In the nourished state, glucose is stored in adipose tissue i.e. fat hence, the firmcutes bacetria essentially promote lipogenesis. The fact that these microbiota can effect energy balance has associated them with increasing obesity risk.

Interestingly the firmcutes bacetria are found in higher amounts in the obese individuals when compared to lean individuals (1).

therefore if you don't want to be the most energy efficient camper on the block don't promote the growth of firmcutes baceria in the gut. If you want to be the most energy inefficient camper on the block, eat more protein

[Shepard]

Interestingly the firmcutes bacetria are found in higher amounts in the obese individuals when compared to lean individuals (1).

therefore if you don't want to be the most energy efficient camper on the block don't promote the growth of firmcutes baceria in the gut. If you want to be the most energy inefficient camper on the block, eat more protein

But, the paper also shows weight loss increases Bacteroidetes content and decreased Firmicutes, leaving us with another chicken and egg predicament.

[rwac]

What about yoghurts? like fruit yoghurts you buy at the shop, are they bad also?

Fruit yoghurts are probably bad for the sugar too.

[TheFountain]

People need to realize that the fiber content in whole grain, complex carb foods offsets the insulin spike the original poster is talking about and contributes much to colin health. Essentially if you are eating pasta, for example, that is filled with processed carbohydrates from bleached flour, you are talking insulin spike. Eating dream fields pasta, which lists the carbs but still is considered a low carb pasta, does not contribute anywhere near as much to raising the GI because the carbohydrates in it are of complex origin. I also think, once again, genetics plays a role in what diet is best for what person. And I do not think there is evidence supporting high fat, high protein diet will work for everyone or even a vast majority of the population. I also take issue with the original poster attributing inflammatory fat disease to whole grain consumption. I think if you conducted a thorough study of the vast majority of obese people you would see that the majority of their carbs are of a highly processed origin. Bleached flours, fillers coupled with excessive trans fat intake. I also want to know what the original poster does to offset the effects of growth hormones and antibiotics in all the supermarket meat out there. I am hoping he eats mostly free range meat. And I still think the only overall healthy meat is fish, those specifically low in mercury like salman and shrimp.

Edited by TheFountain, 31 December 2008 - 03:31 PM.

[TheFountain]

Alrighty, folks. Just what is everyone eating? I was reasonably comfortable with my daily meal of a turkey, broccoli and avocado sandwich (all ingredients listed) on double-fiber bread with practically no sugars. x2. I would snack on Post Shredded Wheat, which tastes precisely like crunchy cardboard. So now I'm seeing I should avoid grains? Will my sandwich become a formless mass of ingredients? Is there anything at all I could snack on between meals?

I have budgetary concerns, so I can't really afford exotic foods merely because they're one of the handful of examples of non-derision-earning consumables. It would also be grand if some measure of enjoyment could be eked from meals. My enjoyment of my current sandwich is, it must be admitted, rather minimal as it is.

So what are people eating? ;p

I think Duke's diet plan goes like this:

Drop wheat, and reduce other grains.
Decrease carbs.
Decrease Polyunsaturated fats.
Increase Protein & Saturated fat.
Meat & Eggs are good.
Cream, butter, coconut oil, palm oil are all good.

I would like to see the evidence to support the notion that this diet is good for a vast majority of people. I guess the studies are still not out yet. Not to mention paleolithic studies are not forthcoming, so you can't base an assessment on this. Just because we are here does not mean we got here healthily. One might be inclined to think that if this were the case our ancestors would have lived longer, barring elemental forces. But there is documented evidence that shows that colin health is another very important key to longevity, and one of the ways to colin health is high fiber diet.

Edited by TheFountain, 31 December 2008 - 03:35 PM.

[shuffleup]

Alrighty, folks. Just what is everyone eating? I was reasonably comfortable with my daily meal of a turkey, broccoli and avocado sandwich (all ingredients listed) on double-fiber bread with practically no sugars. x2. I would snack on Post Shredded Wheat, which tastes precisely like crunchy cardboard. So now I'm seeing I should avoid grains? Will my sandwich become a formless mass of ingredients? Is there anything at all I could snack on between meals?

I have budgetary concerns, so I can't really afford exotic foods merely because they're one of the handful of examples of non-derision-earning consumables. It would also be grand if some measure of enjoyment could be eked from meals. My enjoyment of my current sandwich is, it must be admitted, rather minimal as it is.

So what are people eating? ;p

Yes lose the sandwich, take the turkey and put it in a salad with a variety of colored lettuces & some spinach.

As far as snacking in between, you may eventually find, after dropping the wheat, that your entire appetite is not nearly as high anymore. I thought I would never get off carbs because I was always hungry. Well, it sucked for about 10 days, but then I didn't crave breads, pastas, anymore and my appetite was down in total.

Having said that, don't mess up though and not add some fats & proteins else you will probably be too hungry for awhile. Eggs help.

[Shepard]

People need to realize that the fiber content in whole grain, complex carb foods offsets the insulin spike the original poster is talking about and contributes much to colin health.

The question is would the colon be happier with a glazed doughnut, a sprouted grain doughnut, or spinach rolled into the shape of a dougnut? Mine likes cake ones with powdered sugar.

I think if you conducted a thorough study of the vast majority of obese people you would see that the majority of their carbs are of a highly processed origin.

This would be as much correlation as any other diet study, and depends on the person's original opinion to determine how he interprets it. See the ketosis thread for some references to the health implications that have been discussed, some theoretical, the redox paper from RR maybe not so theoretical. Now, this is different from the grains=bad argument in that a person could cut out grains and still keep carbs high, and again the interpretation probably depends on the biases of the interpreter.

I also want to know what the original poster does to offset the effects of growth hormones and antibiotics in all the supermarket meat out there. I am hoping he eats mostly free range meat.

Do people still think that growth hormone matters in the beef? I wish. I'll take a moo-cow pumped to the gills with test and GH then, please. Just imagine the drug-trafficking possibilities.

Edited by shepard, 31 December 2008 - 03:50 PM.

[Prometheus]

Interestingly the firmcutes bacetria are found in higher amounts in the obese individuals when compared to lean individuals (1).

therefore if you don't want to be the most energy efficient camper on the block don't promote the growth of firmcutes baceria in the gut. If you want to be the most energy inefficient camper on the block, eat more protein

But, the paper also shows weight loss increases Bacteroidetes content and decreased Firmicutes, leaving us with another chicken and egg predicament.

Not necessarily. Firmicutes thrive on the the inflammatory and lipid profile of the obese metabolism, which they also exacerbate via secreting endotoxin and flooding the circulation with short chain fatty acids. When metabolism enters hypocaloric mode it no longer is supportive of firmicutes, which is a competitor to bacteroidetes and the latter is allowed to proliferate its colonies.

[shuffleup]

Alrighty, folks. Just what is everyone eating? I was reasonably comfortable with my daily meal of a turkey, broccoli and avocado sandwich (all ingredients listed) on double-fiber bread with practically no sugars. x2. I would snack on Post Shredded Wheat, which tastes precisely like crunchy cardboard. So now I'm seeing I should avoid grains? Will my sandwich become a formless mass of ingredients? Is there anything at all I could snack on between meals?

I have budgetary concerns, so I can't really afford exotic foods merely because they're one of the handful of examples of non-derision-earning consumables. It would also be grand if some measure of enjoyment could be eked from meals. My enjoyment of my current sandwich is, it must be admitted, rather minimal as it is.

So what are people eating? ;p

I think Duke's diet plan goes like this:

Drop wheat, and reduce other grains.
Decrease carbs.
Decrease Polyunsaturated fats.
Increase Protein & Saturated fat.
Meat & Eggs are good.
Cream, butter, coconut oil, palm oil are all good.

I would like to see the evidence to support the notion that this diet is good for a vast majority of people. I guess the studies are still not out yet. Not to mention paleolithic studies are not forthcoming, so you can't base an assessment on this. Just because we are here does not mean we got here healthily. One might be inclined to think that if this were the case our ancestors would have lived longer, barring elemental forces. But there is documented evidence that shows that colin health is another very important key to longevity, and one of the ways to colin health is high fiber diet.

Good Calories, Bad Calories

[Shepard]

Not necessarily. Firmicutes thrive on the the inflammatory and lipid profile of the obese metabolism, which they also exacerbate via secreting endotoxin and flooding the circulation with short chain fatty acids. When metabolism enters hypocaloric mode it no longer is supportive of firmicutes, which is a competitor to bacteroidetes and the latter is allowed to proliferate its colonies.

This was pretty much what I was trying to say. Which is driving which?

Zoolander seemed to be making the connection between increasing Lactobacillus concentrations and improving digestion efficiency. I was just providing the counterpoint that it might not matter.

Edited by shepard, 31 December 2008 - 04:43 PM.

[TheFountain]

Alrighty, folks. Just what is everyone eating? I was reasonably comfortable with my daily meal of a turkey, broccoli and avocado sandwich (all ingredients listed) on double-fiber bread with practically no sugars. x2. I would snack on Post Shredded Wheat, which tastes precisely like crunchy cardboard. So now I'm seeing I should avoid grains? Will my sandwich become a formless mass of ingredients? Is there anything at all I could snack on between meals?

I have budgetary concerns, so I can't really afford exotic foods merely because they're one of the handful of examples of non-derision-earning consumables. It would also be grand if some measure of enjoyment could be eked from meals. My enjoyment of my current sandwich is, it must be admitted, rather minimal as it is.

So what are people eating? ;p

I think Duke's diet plan goes like this:

Drop wheat, and reduce other grains.
Decrease carbs.
Decrease Polyunsaturated fats.
Increase Protein & Saturated fat.
Meat & Eggs are good.
Cream, butter, coconut oil, palm oil are all good.

I would like to see the evidence to support the notion that this diet is good for a vast majority of people. I guess the studies are still not out yet. Not to mention paleolithic studies are not forthcoming, so you can't base an assessment on this. Just because we are here does not mean we got here healthily. One might be inclined to think that if this were the case our ancestors would have lived longer, barring elemental forces. But there is documented evidence that shows that colin health is another very important key to longevity, and one of the ways to colin health is high fiber diet.

Good Calories, Bad Calories

Like I said, there is little if no forthcoming evidence that this diet is suited to everyone. Maybe a genetically select few but definitely not anyone as far as we can determine thus far. To taut it as an everyone diet so prematurely is dangerous and irresponsible.