354 replies to this topic

[TigerMask]

Thank you for the links chrono; after reading all that, I think that waiting 7 days after complete discontinuation of the Subutex will be sufficient (in the past I have read that one has to wait two weeks -- that seems way too long). I read a report where the subject took LDN at night, suboxone (which includes naloxone as you may know) in the daytime, and while it didn't seem to send them into withdrawals, the experience was still unpleasant -- though I forget the exact reason and the exact negative effects experienced (this is from a post on the SomniForum; perhaps I'll look it up later). Even if I could take them at the same time, I'd rather discontinue the Subutex first -- I have had many odd side effects, some that are hard to describe, and I'd like to be free of it; it is, after all, an addictive medication just like full opioid agonists. I talk about this more here: http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=411387

Chrono, I see you are a member of the Social Anxiety Support Forum. I just registered there as well, under the same name. Have you tried LDN, or do you ever plan on trying it? From what I understand, for most people, the benefits for anxiety are limited.

Sorry Funk, I do not mean to hijack your thread. After chrono answers this post, we can discuss anything further either through PM or at my own regimen thread.

[FunkOdyssey]

Note: The first two questions are regarding supplements, while the last one (towards the middle of the post) concerns LDN and is one I just thought to ask while I was writing this post. That one wound up being more important than both of the previous questions, and though I realize it is a bit of a stretch that you will know the answer, I thought I'd ask anyway considering your knowledge of the subject.

1) Funk, regarding zinc citrate, how do you feel it compares to zinc picolinate? Does one of them have a more positive effect on your mood or sleep quality?

2) Also, regarding l-theanine, awhile back you wrote that it positively effected your mornings when taken the night before -- what dosage did you take and do you still stand by this statement?

Thanks for taking a look at these questions; I appreciate the time and effort you put into participating in this forum. There's actually another that I just thought of: I will be trying LDN soon (through a doctor and compounding pharmacy), and I hope it helps me as much as it seems to have helped you (your positive posts regarding it were one of the many things that pushed me to finally try it).

3) The one problem I have is this: I will be discontinuing subutex (similar, in fact nearly identical, to suboxone, both contain the same partial opioid agonist for discontinuing other opiates), and I need to know how long I have to wait before taking the LDN (subutex has a very long half-life). I was thinking about signing up for an LDN forum and posting my question there, or simply confessing to my doctor (fact is, I just want to keep that arrangement as simple as possible), but I just thought, right now, perhaps Funk will know the answer or can point me in the right direction.

Thanks.. The first two questions were my original intention but hopefully you can answer the LDN one as well (or at least direct me to a more appropriate forum -- if you know of one). Thanks!

Neither zinc citrate, zinc picolinate, or any other form of zinc (zinc glycinate) I've used has had any noticeable effect on anything, ever.

I used to take 100-200mg of theanine at bedtime. It did seem to improve sleep quality and positively affect mood in the morning. I'm not sure why I stopped taking it, but probably just wanted to reduce expense and complexity of the regimen. I'll have to update again soon as I've already made a ton of changes since the last update (RLA + ALCAR are back, dropped NAC, added glucosamine/chondroitin, buhner herbs, etc).

I'd wait at least a week before starting LDN. I also wouldn't take 4.5mg the very first night just in case shit hits the fan. Use some fractional amount of that, maybe 1 or 1.5mg if you can divide it that way.

[TigerMask]

Thanks for the reply.

I seem to get the same affect from l-theanine but my dosage is typically 300 mg. I'll try a lower dosage.

Regarding LDN, I'm pretty sure the pharmacy I'm getting it from usually puts it in 1.5 mg capsules. That's what I will request anyway. Some people seem to prefer dosages lower than 4.5 mg, which is interesting.

Edited by TigerMask, 03 June 2010 - 09:06 PM.

[TigerMask]

Funk, l-theanine is a fairly expensive supplement, but this is a pretty good deal: http://www.iherb.com...Caps/12959?at=0

You'll also get %15 off all Doctor's Best items (though this offer ends on Monday).

And no, I do not work for iherb, I just thought this was a good deal worth mentioning -- even without the %15 off it is probably the best price for l-theanine from iherb.

[warner]

Hi Funk. Did you drop the 4x per day 100mg niacin? If so, what was logic behind that? (Didn't see on this thread.)

[FunkOdyssey]

lol, I don't even remember what I was trying to do there. Something about the NAD/NADH ratio perhaps. Sometimes I wonder if keeping such a detailed log online is a great idea, because someday people are going to look back and laugh at all the ridiculous things I've tried.

[mike250]

Funk do you still take the trialpha ?

[FunkOdyssey]

No, I think that made stools too loose if I remember correctly (it has a laxative effect).

[chris w]

Sometimes I wonder if keeping such a detailed log online is a great idea, because someday people are going to look back and laugh at all the ridiculous things I've tried.

Ha, not if you've made it to 500

Edited by chris w, 07 June 2010 - 09:00 PM.

[e Volution]

Sometimes I wonder if keeping such a detailed log online is a great idea, because someday people are going to look back and laugh at all the ridiculous things I've tried.

Ha, not if you've made it to 500

Or 123! I love the detailed log you keep, very informative just as studying the history of science gives insights despite the conclusions at the time being wrong.

[FunkOdyssey]

Updates made to regimen in first post of first page. I'm seeing a new Lyme doctor and he thinks I have babesia and wants to go after that. It may explain my perpetually low platelet count (100-130 compared to normal range of 140-400):

Babesiosis is a tick borne illness caused by Babesia microti, a parasite that infects red blood cells. In a recent case control study of 34 patients with babesiosis, platelet counts were the only hematologic parameter significantly lower than in case controls (120). Thrombocytopenia tended to be moderate although severe cases were noted. The mechanism of thrombocytopenia in these patients is unknown.

Added:

• Ceftin - excellent spirochete killer with good brain penetration.
• Zithromax - kills Lyme and is one half of the standard babesia protocol.
• Mepron - kills babesia and probably the cyst form of Lyme as well.
• Cat's Claw - Buhner protocol herb, raises CD57 count, immune booster.
• Andrographis - Buhner protocol herb, anti-spirochetal, anti-malarial (babesia), immune booster.
• Sarsaparilla - Buhner protocol herb, anti-spirochetal, reduces severity of herxheimer reactions.
• Nitro250 - Buhner protocol herb (sort of), inhibits MMP-9, reduces severity of herxheimer reactions. I'm also planning to use whole japanese knotweed as Buhner recommends (getting some next week) but I can't help but suspect that much of its benefits originate from resveratrol itself, so I'll hedge my bets and take both.
• Bromelain - synergizes with antibiotics, increases CD57 expression by natural killer cells
• Jarrow FamilE - support immune function.
• Ester-C - support immune function.
• Glucosamine/Chondroitin/MSM - collagen repair
• Acetyl-L-Carnitine - energy, cognition, neuroprotective
• Saccharomyces Boulardii - gut protection during antibiotic therapy
• Theralac - gut protection during antibiotic therapy. May replace VSL#3 with additional theralac.
• BIO-Curcumin - inhibits MMP-1 and 3, neuroprotective, anti-malarial (synergistic results in combination with andrographis)
• Copper - looking back over my blood test results I noticed my below-range copper level that I never had re-tested. I'm going to test again, and include ceruloplasmin this time as well, after a month or two. I'm also taking a few different things that chelate copper and reduce absorption.

Changed:

• Thyroid-S - increased dose from 1/2 grain BID to 1 grain BID. My attempt to wean off thyroid hormone replacement failed. My thyroid picked up only 10% of the slack as I reduced my dose. Back to a full replacement dose.
• Magnesium Citrate - reduced bedtime dose from 333mg to 166mg. Diet is providing a good amount of magnesium, probably don't need to exceed the RDA on top of that, Lyme or no. Total supplemental dose is now 383mg daily.
• Fish Oil - I'm back on the high-dose-EPA-sucks wagon after falling off for a period of time (mainly concerned with depression of natural killer cell activity). Remembered that actual fish provides approximately 1.5:1 DHA:EPA ratio, NOT THE OPPOSITE as in common commercial fish oil. Switched from 400mg DHA / 800mg EPA daily to 500mg DHA / 200mg EPA.

Removed:

• Levothyroxine - seems to strongly suppress TSH without elevating hormone levels proportionally.
• Tetracycline - letting my new LLMD direct the antibiotic regimen.
• Taurine - looked into this again and even 500mg is approximately two or three times more taurine than heavy meat eaters obtain from food daily, and I already eat plenty of meat. Chronic taurine supplementation eventually becomes anxiogenic in rats.
• Lithium Orotate - got sick of splitting tablets into crumbly quarters, wasn't doing anything subjectively helpful anyway. Doses high enough to do anything cause brain fog.
• NAC Sustain - at 1200mg daily this boosted my red blood cell count from lower half of normal to the very upper limit of the normal range. Probably helpful for endurance sports, not helpful for the hypercoagulative state my blood is currently in, actually a bit dangerous. Lends some credence to fears about the power of NAC to influence oxygen sensing because the body definitely reacts with efforts to increase oxygen delivery.
• Memantine - don't think it interacts as positively with dexmethylphenidate as it does with amphetamines. Memantine's a7 nAChR antagonism which is important for preventing amphetamine toxicity and tolerance is useless here. May have some negative impact cognitively, and its neuroprotective abilities are unnecessary with dexmethylphenidate because it is already very benign.
• Milk Thistle - I'm not going to take this unless I see elevated liver enzymes on a blood test. I don't think I need it at the moment.
• Vitamin A - I'm getting plenty of preformed retinol daily from egg yolks.
• Iodine - gave up on my thyroid doing anything useful. Don't need supplemental iodine if my thyroid is collecting unemployment.
• Ubiquinol - atovaquone is a tweaked version of the ubiquinone molecule that takes the place of CoQ10 within protozoal mitochondria and shuts down electron transport and energy production. Excess supplemental CoQ10 floating around in the blood may cause treatment failure.

I just started many of the new items within the last week. All things considered I am feeling pretty damn good.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 13 June 2010 - 06:30 PM.

[nameless]

Decent number of changes there. A couple of questions... actually, a lot of questions:

Regarding mepron-CoQ10, does your doc think that's an issue, or just a potential issue, so you are playing it safe? I am doing the malarone-zith thing, yet am still taking Ubiquinol for my weird heart... and hoping it's not interfering.

If going with the interference theory, isn't fat soluble antioxidants also out? Just curious if your vitamin E is a good idea, as that's usually mentioned alongside CoQ10 as a possible problem if taken with atovaquone.

Isn't resveratrol more for Bartonella than Lyme/Babesia? Is there any scientific evidence backing it up? I have considered trying it for Bartonella, yet when I asked anyone over at Lymenet regarding evidence, they just point to Buhner. Yet nobody seems to have any actual data.

Is Ester C + Zith a good idea at the same time, due to calcium? I realize it's not much calcium, but not sure how much could cause some absorption problems. I've been taking Ester C, but I try to take it at night several hours away from meds.

Regarding EPA, I've had a concern regaring immune suppression for a while, but was hoping if vitamin E (whatever amount they include with most fish oils) was added, it wouldn't suppress killer cells. Have there been studies checking for killer cell activity using fish oil with additional E (or antioxidants added)? Is the immune suppression due to oxidation, or some other factor? I'm also not sure if DHA is completely off the hook, as although it shouldn't lower killer cell activity, I seem to recall it affecting some other immune function, albeit at high doses only.

Plan to add artemisin at a later date for the Babesia?

And not sure if you ever mentioned it, but what co-infections have you tested positive for? Or have been diagnosed with? Do you have the typical Babesia symptoms (sweating, shortness of breath, etc). Just asking, as I'm curious how long it typically takes before symptoms improve. I've been doing my Babesia trial for about 2.5 weeks now, and have noticed some weirdness.... what feels like herxes, but so far they come in an odd pattern. First week I didn't notice much, but then I felt awful for about 4 days. Then a weird pattern emerged... like 3-4 days of the week I feel god awful, then the rest of the week I feel better than normal. Not sure if it's Babesia, coincidence, or something else being hit by the meds.

Edited by nameless, 14 June 2010 - 05:25 AM.

[health_nutty]

[*]Lithium Orotate - got sick of splitting tablets into crumbly quarters, wasn't doing anything subjectively helpful anyway. Doses high enough to do anything cause brain fog.

Have you tried dosing only at night?

[Sillewater]

[*]Taurine - looked into this again and even 500mg is approximately two or three times more taurine than heavy meat eaters obtain from food daily, and I already eat plenty of meat. Chronic taurine supplementation eventually becomes anxiogenic in rats.

Adv Exp Med Biol. 2003;526:277-83.
Dietary taurine intake and serum taurine levels of women on Jeju Island.
Kim ES, Kim JS, Yim MH, Jeong Y, Ko YS, Watanabe T, Nakatsuka H, Nakatsuka S, Matsuda-Inoguchi N, Shimbo S, Ikeda M.
Dept. Food Science and Nutrition, Dankook University, Seoul 140-714, Korea.
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to investigate the dietary taurine intake and serum taurine levels of women on Jeju Island in Korea. Sixty six married women aged 43.5 +/- 7.1 volunteered for this study: 34 from the city area and 32 from two fishing-farming areas. Diet samples were collected from the participants; the samples included three meals (breakfast, lunch and supper), including snacks, drinks and whatever else the participants had eaten for 24 hours. Taurine levels in the diet and serum were determined as the dabsyl derivative by HPLC with a Rf-detector. The intake of taurine ranged from 8.4 to 767.6 mg/day and its mean value was 163.9 +/- 150.2 mg/day (mean +/- SD). There was a significant difference between the two groups: 114.9 +/- 78.7 for the women from the city area and 215.9 +/- 187.9 mg/day for the women from the fishing-farming areas (p<0.001). The taurine intake of the total diet, including all snacks and drinks, was 2300 +/- 584 g/day for the city area and 2342 +/- 528 g/day for the fishing-farming areas. The daily protein intake was 58.8 +/- 16.4 g for the women of the city area and 65.5 +/- 17.1 g for the women of the fishing-farming areas. There was a significant correlation between the intake of fish/shellfish and taurine (p=0.001) while there was no correlation between the intake of protein and taurine (p=0.057). The taurine levels in serum ranged from 68.6 to 261.6 micromol/L and the mean value was 169.7 +/- 41.5 micromol/L. There was no significant difference between the women from the city area and the women from the fishing-farming areas in serum taurine levels. The correlations of serum taurine levels with serum retinol levels (p=0.016) and alpha-tocopherol (p=0.014) levels were significant. These results suggest that taurine intake is dependent on the fish/shellfish intake and that taurine may play an important role in the retention of antioxidative nutrients.
PMID: 12908611 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Based on my notes cooking reduces taurine content by 50% and some seafood sources such as abalone has up to 1000mg/100g of taurine. I'm just basing what I read about your diet, you don't seem to each much dark meat (which has the highest concentration of taurine) so maybe some taurine would be useful.

Another useful paper:

Adv Exp Med Biol. 2000;483:137-42.
Daily dietary taurine intake in Japan.Kibayashi E, Yokogoshi H, Mizue H, Miura K, Yoshita K, Nakagawa H, Naruse Y, Sokejima S, Kagamimori S.
Department of Life and Culture, Sonoda Woman's College, Amagasaki, Japan.
PMID: 11787590 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[FunkOdyssey]

Decent number of changes there. A couple of questions... actually, a lot of questions:

Regarding mepron-CoQ10, does your doc think that's an issue, or just a potential issue, so you are playing it safe? I am doing the malarone-zith thing, yet am still taking Ubiquinol for my weird heart... and hoping it's not interfering.

My current doctor does not think it is an issue, and neither does LymeMD (the blogger), but a previous doctor did and I have decided to err on the side of caution since I have no dire need to take supplemental CoQ10 anyway.

If going with the interference theory, isn't fat soluble antioxidants also out? Just curious if your vitamin E is a good idea, as that's usually mentioned alongside CoQ10 as a possible problem if taken with atovaquone.

The atovaquone is not killing babesia via an oxidative mechanism. It is sabotaging the mitochondria and starving it of energy which prevents reproduction. There shouldn't be any interaction with fat-soluble antioxidants.

Isn't resveratrol more for Bartonella than Lyme/Babesia? Is there any scientific evidence backing it up? I have considered trying it for Bartonella, yet when I asked anyone over at Lymenet regarding evidence, they just point to Buhner. Yet nobody seems to have any actual data.

Resveratrol inhibits one of the MMP's that lyme uses to degrade collagen and eat it. So it should be helpful vs Lyme via that mechanism. Japanese Knotweed (the whole herb) has much broader anti-microbial properties than isolated resveratrol. Some of the references Buhner cites here have uninformative abstracts and require full-text access to verify. If you don't have his book Healing Lyme you should definitely pick up a copy as it is the best book that exists on Lyme.

Is Ester C + Zith a good idea at the same time, due to calcium? I realize it's not much calcium, but not sure how much could cause some absorption problems. I've been taking Ester C, but I try to take it at night several hours away from meds.

Azithromycin has no interaction with calcium. Magnesium lowers the Cmax a bit but not the AUC so its not clear whether that is detrimental. If you want to be safe, avoid taking it with magnesium but don't worry about calcium.

Regarding EPA, I've had a concern regaring immune suppression for a while, but was hoping if vitamin E (whatever amount they include with most fish oils) was added, it wouldn't suppress killer cells. Have there been studies checking for killer cell activity using fish oil with additional E (or antioxidants added)? Is the immune suppression due to oxidation, or some other factor? I'm also not sure if DHA is completely off the hook, as although it shouldn't lower killer cell activity, I seem to recall it affecting some other immune function, albeit at high doses only.

I do not think the addition of Vitamin E would counter EPA's suppression of NK cell activity. I don't know the exact mechanism. It might be explained in the full-text of this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11237929

Plan to add artemisin at a later date for the Babesia?

I'm going to add both artemisinin and cryptolepsis actually. I was waiting for mepron to reach near steady-state concentration first before introducing artemisinin (~9 days), and just waiting for cryptolepsis that I ordered to arrive before starting that.

And not sure if you ever mentioned it, but what co-infections have you tested positive for? Or have been diagnosed with? Do you have the typical Babesia symptoms (sweating, shortness of breath, etc). Just asking, as I'm curious how long it typically takes before symptoms improve. I've been doing my Babesia trial for about 2.5 weeks now, and have noticed some weirdness.... what feels like herxes, but so far they come in an odd pattern. First week I didn't notice much, but then I felt awful for about 4 days. Then a weird pattern emerged... like 3-4 days of the week I feel god awful, then the rest of the week I feel better than normal. Not sure if it's Babesia, coincidence, or something else being hit by the meds.

When I was younger I had night sweats and chills which coincided with low red blood cell counts. My doc thinks that's when my babesia was most active and that my body eventually adapted to it. I do have occasional air hunger and chest pains currently which my doctor attributes to babesia, as well as possibly the low platelets. I did not test positive for any co-infections, just Lyme via positive western blot and low CD57.

A poster on Lymenet, TF, who was cured of babesia noticed a very similar pattern as you are describing where his symptoms would flare three days per week. His doctor instructed him to take artemisinin on those days, which happened to be Friday through Sunday. Pulsing artemisinin is the optimal way to use it anyway, as it induces enzymes which dramatically hasten its clearance after a few days. I'm personally undecided on the ideal dose. Some doctors recommend as little as 100mg 3x daily (and that is what apparently what cured TF) but it is used at doses of 500mg 3x daily for malaria and even higher doses for cancer.

Read TF's post here:
http://flash.lymenet.../1/92717#000002

[FunkOdyssey]

Have you tried dosing only at night?

I was dosing it only at night and still noticed brain fog during the day at higher doses.

I'm just basing what I read about your diet, you don't seem to each much dark meat (which has the highest concentration of taurine) so maybe some taurine would be useful.

I used to have a persistent low-level type of anxiety/panic which is gone right now, and one of the things I removed from my regimen in the meantime was taurine, so I am not inclined to mess with it at the moment.

[nameless]

Thanks for the reply.

That particular fish oil study is the one that has always scared me.

Just looked up the full study again and they also state:

The plasma TBARS concentrations observed in this study compare well with the value of 4.0 ± 0.4 µmol/L reported by Meydani et al (52) for 10 women aged 51–71 y. In the current study, none of the treatments, including FO, significantly changed plasma TBARS concentrations. Therefore, it appears that oxidative stress resulting in lipid peroxidation was not induced by any of the treatments in the current study and that lipid peroxidation did not play a role in the alteration in NK cell activity observed after treatment with FO. However, some studies reported that the suppressive effects of FO on T lymphocyte functions can be prevented by adding suitable amounts of {alpha}-tocopherol to the diet (53, 54). Therefore, a role of oxidant stress in eliciting the observed decrease in NK cell activity cannot be totally excluded and warrants further investigation.

So it looks like oxidation probably isn't the issue, but the researchers aren't entirely sure. One question I've wondered is, is fish oil modulating the immune system, or truly suppressing it? Just wondering if it's a good thing to have higher NK cells all the time, or just when they are needed? Although for Lymey people, I expect it's best to have higher amounts of NK cells about. Perhaps there is an optimal dosage which doesn't supress NK activity, yet provides some anti-inflammatory action? That dose would be lower than 720mg EPA, based on this study.

Have you tried IP-6, which should increase killer cells?

As for atovaquone, I've also read it kills babesia via pro-oxidant activity (I recall some lyme doc said this), but I don't know if it's exactly true. I just know they typically include vitamin E along with CoQ10 as things to avoid.

And thanks for that Lymenet link. Interesting similarity with my symptoms, although it's a little too soon for me to say anything definite. One of the annoying things I find is, since I tested positive for other co-infections (yet not Babesia), and I have symptoms that come and go as it is, I'm not entirely sure what the meds are necessarily hitting. Logically, one would say the malarone was hitting Babesia, but alternatively one could say Zithro was hitting Bartonella instead. Or Lyme... or for all we know, some other infection.

And I ordered artemisin a couple of days ago, and should be getting it in today. I was thinking of starting with 300mg/daily, pulsed several days a week, and see how it goes. Anything I need to be aware of regarding interactions or oddness from it?

Edited by nameless, 14 June 2010 - 05:20 PM.

[dilenja]

FunkOdyssey, I'm glad to hear you're making progress with your new physician and noticing an improvement after the diagnosis with Babesia and its' treatment. I've been reading of your Herculean stuggle here and on M&M for some time now and I wish you all the best with your treatment and continued recovery.

I noticed you've added Cat's Claw to your regimen this past week, and I assume that the Cat's Claw product you are taking is likely Saventaro (TOA Free)? If it's not, I can provide you with some literature for your consideration with respect to this.

Cheers

Have you tried dosing only at night?

I was dosing it only at night and still noticed brain fog during the day at higher doses.

I'm just basing what I read about your diet, you don't seem to each much dark meat (which has the highest concentration of taurine) so maybe some taurine would be useful.

I used to have a persistent low-level type of anxiety/panic which is gone right now, and one of the things I removed from my regimen in the meantime was taurine, so I am not inclined to mess with it at the moment.

[Lufega]

You should look into astragalus as an immune booster. It does so many other things, it might also help you regenerate some of the damage caused by lyme. I had to stop using it because it was working TOO well.

Also, berberine and oregon grape root were compared to metronidazole and found to be just as effective but without the side effects. I posted these studies in the metronidazole tox. post. That sounds promising for herbs. I'm curious to see what effect you would feel from using these three supps.

[FunkOdyssey]

Have you tried IP-6, which should increase killer cells?

Yes, it dropped my iron levels to the point of deficiency. I was taking a gram daily if I remember correctly. The stuff is no joke.

As for atovaquone, I've also read it kills babesia via pro-oxidant activity (I recall some lyme doc said this), but I don't know if it's exactly true. I just know they typically include vitamin E along with CoQ10 as things to avoid.

That's a myth.

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm....92/?tool=pubmed

MECHANISM OF ACTION
Atovaquone has broad-spectrum activity against Plasmodium spp., P. carinii, Babesia spp., and Toxoplasma gondii. Its mechanism of action has been most completely elucidated for Plasmodium spp. The drug is structurally similar to the inner mitochondrial protein ubiquinone (also called coenzyme Q), which is an integral component of electron flow in aerobic respiration. Ubiquinone accepts electrons from dehydrogenase enzymes and passes them to electron transport cytochromes (126). The passage of electrons from ubiquinone to cytochrome bc1 (complex III) requires binding of coenzyme Q-complex III at the Qo cytochrome domain; it is this step which is inhibited by atovaquone (39, 131). The structure of the Qo cytochrome binding site has been defined and explains the selective toxicity of atovaquone to parasitic mitochondria (120). The consequence of this inhibition is the collapse of the mitochondrial membrane potential (121). Several parasite enzymes are linked to the mitochondrial electron transport system and are inhibited. Included among these enzymes is dihydroorotate dehydrogenase (DHOD), which is required in the biosynthesis of pyrimidines. Because plasmodia are unable to scavenge pyrimidines for DNA synthesis and are required to synthesize them de novo, inhibition of DHOD results in parasite death (43). ATP generation is another physiologic process linked to an intact mitochondrial membrane potential, although in plasmodia ATP levels are not consistently decreased by the administration of atovaquone. The effect of atovaquone on malaria parasites occurs at nanomolar concentrations (51).

And I ordered artemisin a couple of days ago, and should be getting it in today. I was thinking of starting with 300mg/daily, pulsed several days a week, and see how it goes. Anything I need to be aware of regarding interactions or oddness from it?

Nothing comes to mind.

[FunkOdyssey]

FunkOdyssey, I'm glad to hear you're making progress with your new physician and noticing an improvement after the diagnosis with Babesia and its' treatment. I've been reading of your Herculean stuggle here and on M&M for some time now and I wish you all the best with your treatment and continued recovery.

I noticed you've added Cat's Claw to your regimen this past week, and I assume that the Cat's Claw product you are taking is likely Saventaro (TOA Free)? If it's not, I can provide you with some literature for your consideration with respect to this.

Thanks for the well wishes. Regarding TOA free cat's claw, I think its a bit of a scam. I'll back this up when I get home and have access to the Healing Lyme book which lays out the case against TOA-free cat's claw convincingly.

[FunkOdyssey]

You should look into astragalus as an immune booster. It does so many other things, it might also help you regenerate some of the damage caused by lyme. I had to stop using it because it was working TOO well.

Also, berberine and oregon grape root were compared to metronidazole and found to be just as effective but without the side effects. I posted these studies in the metronidazole tox. post. That sounds promising for herbs. I'm curious to see what effect you would feel from using these three supps.

Astragalus is highly recommended for prevention of Lyme and acute Lyme infection where the Th1 response is capable of nipping it in the bud. However, in long-standing infection there is apparently a shift away from Th2 toward a Th1 dominant response which is ineffectual vs entrenched Lyme and may contribute to the development of autoimmunity. So, it is not recommended for chronic Lyme.

I don't know much about berberine and oregon grape root but I'll look into them, thanks for the suggestion.

[nameless]

Glancing over at Lymenet today I found this:

In Vitro Effectiveness of Samento and Banderol Herbal Extracts on the Different Morphological Forms of Borrelia Burgdorferi

http://www.townsendl...0/sapi0710.html

Interesting study... I haven't looked into cat's claw much, but the results look good, especially when combined with banderol. I never heard of banderol before though.

[Lufega]

Sorry, I meant to say "myrrh gum", not oregon grape root. Well, the oregon grape is a source of berberine but I bought straight up berberine by thorne.

[rwac]

Any recent thoughts on Andrographis ?
You took it out and put it back in, right.

No side effects ?

[FunkOdyssey]

Any recent thoughts on Andrographis ?
You took it out and put it back in, right.

No side effects ?

No side effects from it. The most obvious, almost immediate effect of the buhner protocol was that it cleared my skin up nicely. It would be a pretty extreme regimen for acne though, so here's hoping it contributes something of more value in the long run.

[Lippert837]

I too have recently been diagnosed with Lyme after years of thinking I was dying. And chronically getting misdiagnosed. I went and saw Dr. Raxlen in NYC and they think I've had it since childhood and that I also have two co-infections, bartonella and babesiosis. They prescribed me amoxicillin, zythromax and mepron. I'm worried about the mepron. I also just got some epicor in the mail from a friend in vitamin sales. I haven't started my prescriptions because of my fear of the side effects and the price (2k a month for the 3 months). What can you share about your experiences with Mepron?

[FunkOdyssey]

I too have recently been diagnosed with Lyme after years of thinking I was dying. And chronically getting misdiagnosed. I went and saw Dr. Raxlen in NYC and they think I've had it since childhood and that I also have two co-infections, bartonella and babesiosis. They prescribed me amoxicillin, zythromax and mepron. I'm worried about the mepron. I also just got some epicor in the mail from a friend in vitamin sales. I haven't started my prescriptions because of my fear of the side effects and the price (2k a month for the 3 months). What can you share about your experiences with Mepron?

Honestly, I have zero side effects from any of the antibiotics I'm on right now with the exception of some digestive upset which I can control with additional probiotics. The mepron could as well be a yellow sugar solution as far as I can tell because it does nothing noticeable to me. Then again I have no positive babesia labwork, it is almost an experiment of sorts to see if my blood counts improve. So that may be why it seems so benign to me (if I don't have babesia).

Minocycline was actually the worst as far as side effects. Responses vary for each individual though.

Babesia can be treated with a combination of zithromax, bactrim DS and artemisinin, which would be MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper if you are having to pay out of pocket, you might inquire about that. Bactrim also kills bartonella. In any event, do not fear the side effects -- if you've been reading about them on the internet you have probably developed unreasonable and unrealistic negative expectations. Take your probiotics and your liver protection and you'll be fine.

[nameless]

I haven't started my prescriptions because of my fear of the side effects and the price (2k a month for the 3 months). What can you share about your experiences with Mepron?

Agree with Funk regarding alternatives, if cost is an issue.

I have a yearly prescription cap, and even though mepron was my doctor's first choice, we went with malarone instead, as it's cheaper than mepron. It's still expensive if you have to pay out of pocket, but mepron is just insanely priced. I think it's also best taken with some fats, in case your doctor didn't mention that to you.

If you have to pay out of pocket, consider getting meds at Costco. I find they are usually a lot cheaper than other local pharmacies. Bactrim DS + zith + artemisinin is the cheapest solution, but I was one of those people where Bactrim caused a problem. Like Funk mentioned, I wouldn't let that scare you though. But I'm not sure if Bactrim works as well as mepron/malarone typically does.

And I can't speak for mepron, but for malarone/zith I noticed herx badness (or at least what I assume was a herx) at around the 9-10 day mark. But it wasn't the super terrible 'I am about to die feeling', at least.

It's worth bringing up the possibility of Bactrim for the future with your doc regardless, perhaps for the Bartonella. The other common alternative for Bartonella is a quinolone, but they are a little more dangerous (tendon rupture issue). Get the sore feet thing from Bart? I find that an annoying symptom.

Edited by nameless, 26 June 2010 - 07:24 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Updates made to regimen in first post of first page (click here for link). As usual, in the space of six weeks I turned around 180 degrees on a long list of items.

Most importantly, I went after babesia like crazy for a solid month with four different anti-babesial compounds and saw no change in health, symptoms, or blood counts. I'm pretty sure I don't have babesia at this point. I'm back to blaming my low platelets and high MPV on simply Lyme:

Wiad Lek. 2001;54(11-12):668-73.
[Estimation of platelet counts and their morphological parameters in patients infected by borrelia burgdorferi]

[Article in Polish]

Zajkowska JM, Hermanowska-Szpakowicz T, Wysocka J, Pancewicz S, Lipska A, Kasprzycka E.

Kliniki Chorób Zakaźnych i Neuroinfekcji, Białymstoku. zajkowsk@kki.net.pl
Abstract

Platelet counts and their morphologic parameters in patients with Lyme borreliosis before and after antibiotic therapy (4 weeks of treatment) were estimated. 30 patients aged 17-60, x = 41 were evaluated: 7 with Erythema migrans, 3 patients with neuroborreliosis in the from Lymphocytic meningitis and 20 ones with Lyme arthritis. Control group consisted of 19 healthy persons aged 34-52, x = 43. Hematologic analyser Coulter MAXM was used for testing PLT, MPV, PCT and PDW. The results indicated that patients with Lyme boreliosis have decreasing platelet count with simultaneously increasing their volume in comparison with healthy control. It may result from the involement of platelets in defense mechanisms of infected host. The decrease of platelet count after the antibiotic treatment in comparison with the control group may be the reflection of influence of antibiotic treatment on thrombopoesis.

PMID: 11928555

I did alot of research recently on the effect of Lyme on the immune system, what types of immune response are required to eradicate lyme, and what markers of immune function are present in populations that have successfully beaten lyme or carry it asymptomatically. In brief, an effective Th1 response is critically important (powered by IFN-gamma, IL-12, TNF-alpha) and certain Th2 cytokines that suppress Th1 immunity are detrimental (IL-4, IL-10). Armed with this knowledge, I was forced to make drastic changes to my regimen, and throw out the entire Buhner protocol.

I moved on to studying the effects of antidepressants and psychostimulants on immune function. Dexmethylphenidate was removed as a result. I ordered and intend to replace it with modafinil which is the only psychostimulant that actually improves immune function and health outcomes in infection.

Because I had nothing dopaminergic to pair escitalopram with, and the serotonergic sides that manifest during monotherapy are unacceptable, I replaced it with tianeptine. Its had nice mood-lifting, panicolytic, and libido boosting effects already (only a week on it so far).


Added:

• Carlson B-Compleet w/C - replacing Multi-Basics, cost savings, nice ideal dose of Vit C (250mg BID)
• Jarrow CarotenALL - replacing carotenoids in multi-basics and separate lycopene product
• NOW Vitamin A - replacing Multi-Basics
• Healthy Origins Pycnogenol - only non-significantly immunosuppressive thing that seems to really help my achy right elbow
• Doctor's Best Hyaluronic Acid - for joint function and purdy skin
• JarrowSil activated silicon - ^ same
• Jarrow Q-Absorb CoQ10 - sane dosage for immune function, should produce 200% serum concentrations compared to a healthy baseline
• Healthy Origins Seleno Excell - higher dosage to support immunity
• Doctor's Best Lithium Orotate - the usual reasons
• Tianeptine - France's gift to modern psychiatric medicine

Changed:

• Vitamin D - reduced daily dose from 4,666iu to 2,000iu in pursuit of 40ng/mL 25OHD level
• Magnesium - increased to 400mg daily (333mg citrate at bedtime, 70mg malate at lunch)
• Zinc - changed from 30mg picolinate to 25mg citrate
• Protein - changed from pea protein to Trutein. The prebiotic fiber blend in this stuff seems to be really good for my gut and it is the most delicious protein I have ever used.

Removed:

• Dexmethylphenidate - detrimental to immune function
• Nattokinase - fibrinogen below normal range in recent test, increasingly skeptical of biofilm theory of Lyme
• Bromelain - suppresses Th1 immunity
• Cat's Claw - suppresses Th1 immunity
• Andrographis - inconsistent effects on immunity in studies, not clear if its beneficial
• Sarsaparilla - immunosuppressive
• Resveratrol - immunosuppressive
• Acetyl-L-Carnitine - blocks action of thyroid hormone
• AOR Multi-Basics - cost savings, replacing with B-Compleet and CarotenALL
• Healthy Origins Lycopene - lycopene now provided by Jarrow CarotenALL
• American Health Ester-C - Vitamin C now provided by B-Compleet
• LDN - immunosuppressive according to principal researcher Dr. Ian Zagon
• LEF Super BIO-Curcumin - immunosuppressive
• Azithromycin - combination with cefuroxime was too harsh on GI
• Atovaquone - gave it a solid month, combined with other anti-babesial therapies (artemisinin, cryptolepsis), saw zero change in health status, symptoms, or blood counts. Don't think I have babesia.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 27 July 2010 - 05:47 PM.