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Funk's Regimen


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#121 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:46 PM

I'm familiar with DIM but I didn't realize it had any impact on immunity. I will look into it further, might be promising.

I want to post this abstract in support of my dietary experiment:

Med Hypotheses. 2006;67(2):209-11. Epub 2006 Mar 10.
The effect on health of alternate day calorie restriction: eating less and more than needed on alternate days prolongs life.
Johnson JB, Laub DR, John S.

Department of Surgery, Louisiana State University Medical Center, 2547A Lyon Street, 2nd Floor, San Francisco, CA 94123, USA. jim@jbjmd.com

Restricting caloric intake to 60-70% of normal adult weight maintenance requirement prolongs lifespan 30-50% and confers near perfect health across a broad range of species. Every other day feeding produces similar effects in rodents, and profound beneficial physiologic changes have been demonstrated in the absence of weight loss in ob/ob mice. Since May 2003 we have experimented with alternate day calorie restriction, one day consuming 20-50% of estimated daily caloric requirement and the next day ad lib eating, and have observed health benefits starting in as little as two weeks, in insulin resistance, asthma, seasonal allergies, infectious diseases of viral, bacterial and fungal origin (viral URI, recurrent bacterial tonsillitis, chronic sinusitis, periodontal disease), autoimmune disorder (rheumatoid arthritis), osteoarthritis, symptoms due to CNS inflammatory lesions (Tourette's, Meniere's) cardiac arrhythmias (PVCs, atrial fibrillation), menopause related hot flashes. We hypothesize that other many conditions would be delayed, prevented or improved, including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, brain injury due to thrombotic stroke atherosclerosis, NIDDM, congestive heart failure. Our hypothesis is supported by an article from 1957 in the Spanish medical literature which due to a translation error has been construed by several authors to be the only existing example of calorie restriction with good nutrition. We contend for reasons cited that there was no reduction in calories overall, but that the subjects were eating, on alternate days, either 900 calories or 2300 calories, averaging 1600, and that body weight was maintained. Thus they consumed either 56% or 144% of daily caloric requirement. The subjects were in a residence for old people, and all were in perfect health and over 65. Over three years, there were 6 deaths among 60 study subjects and 13 deaths among 60 ad lib-fed controls, non-significant difference. Study subjects were in hospital 123 days, controls 219, highly significant difference. We believe widespread use of this pattern of eating could impact influenza epidemics and other communicable diseases by improving resistance to infection. In addition to the health effects, this pattern of eating has proven to be a good method of weight control, and we are continuing to study the process in conjunction with the NIH.

PMID: 16529878



#122 youandme

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 10:56 AM

notlupus & funk

This is really interesting...Im sure you both know that Plaquenil is used as the first line drug of choice for 'Sjogrens' and in many cases of 'Lupus'..it primarily helps fatigue/aches and pains...and many sufferers speculate it helps slow progression...

I would love it if you guys would speculate on how and why it helps these diseases..?

(btw Looks like I may well be joining the 'Plaq' Club..in April..new Doc.)





Plaquenil is an antimalarial also used to treat rheumatoid arthritis. It sounds scary because of the vision tests, but those are just so they catch it before there is any permanent loss of peripheral vision. Many people are on it for years and years without problems. In lyme it helps break up the cystic form of the spirochetes so they will be susceptible to the other antibiotics that are being taken. I'm going to be taking metronidazole instead of plaquenil because I don't think my insurance covers the vision tests and my doctor (non-LLMD) is more familiar with it.



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#123 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 03:21 PM

If I had to speculate I'd say when it works its because they are semi-successfully treating Lyme. We do know that a significant number of those with positive sjogren's antibodies and positive ANA's (I actually have a positive ANA and so does my lyme positive mother) actually have undiagnosed Lyme as the underlying cause. However, not all cases of sjogren's and lupus respond positively to plaquenil.

So I would guess that when it works, you're treating Lyme, and when it doesn't work, the autoimmunity is provoked by a different intracellular infection.

My mother had sjogren's too until I gave her 5000iu of Vitamin D. Sjogren's antibodies have been undetectable since. Little change in overall health though (still sick with Lyme). I think these autoimmune diseases are garbage diagnoses the same way fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue is. They are categorizing a group of signs and symptoms but tell you nothing about the underlying pathology.

Even childhood Type 1 diabetes now looks like its caused by a particular virus. Eventually we will identify all of the real causes for autoimmune diseases and the current autoimmune paradigm will go the way of the dodo.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 13 March 2009 - 03:29 PM.


#124 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 04:55 PM

I began easing into the alternate day fasting with no food after 2pm yesterday until 10am this morning. Around 10pm I felt almost high with abundant energy and my pupils were constricted to tiny pinpoints, as if I were on opiates or something. I'm not sure what exactly was going on there (endorphins?), but I felt generally O.K., functioned normally and was not very hungry, which I attribute to already practicing a low-carb diet. I was worried that I would not be able to sleep on an empty stomach but that surprisingly made no difference and I slept normally.

Boy was I hungry when I woke up this morning though.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 13 March 2009 - 04:56 PM.


#125 nameless

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 07:29 PM

I began easing into the alternate day fasting with no food after 2pm yesterday until 10am this morning. Around 10pm I felt almost high with abundant energy and my pupils were constricted to tiny pinpoints, as if I were on opiates or something. I'm not sure what exactly was going on there (endorphins?), but I felt generally O.K., functioned normally and was not very hungry, which I attribute to already practicing a low-carb diet. I was worried that I would not be able to sleep on an empty stomach but that surprisingly made no difference and I slept normally.

Boy was I hungry when I woke up this morning though.

Is it the lower amount of caloric intake on the 'low food days' or the time between eating that potentially could have benefits? By this I mean, I wonder if you could eat the same calories each day, yet with just large gaps between eating, and still get the health benefits.

I remember reading a while ago some people were doing a variation on fasting, with 6-8 hr eating, followed by 16-18 hr fasting (or thereabouts), which really isn't fasting exactly... but I think there were some benefits to it (and it sounds relatively easy to do).

The low-carb thing and not eating is an interesting comment, as I noticed I don't really have a problem missing meals or going a decent amount of time without food, although I wouldn't classify myself as real low-carb, certainly not in the Atkins-sense.

But when I mention this to people, they look at me like I'm nuts, like if they go more than 2-4 hrs without food they feel sick. It's probably a carb/sugar thing there, which I never thought of before.

Edited by nameless, 13 March 2009 - 07:33 PM.


#126 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 07:41 PM

Is it the lower amount of caloric intake on the 'low food days' or the time between eating that potentially could have benefits?


Both actually -- a study that compared eating one meal with three meals of equal calories produced lower fasting glucose in the one meal group. And then there are the well documented benefits of calorie restriction.

What I am really after here is autophagy, and this demands that long periods of fasting take place, especially with regard to protein. I expect that in terms of reducing intracellular junk proteins and most importantly in my case, clearing intracellular infection, this alternate day fasting approach would be superior to traditional calorie restriction if calories are equal.

The low-carb thing and not eating is an interesting comment, as I noticed I don't really have a problem missing meals or going a decent amount of time without food, although I wouldn't classify myself as real low-carb, certainly not in the Atkins-sense.

But when I mention this to people, they look at me like I'm nuts, like if they go more than 2-4 hrs without food they feel sick. It's probably a carb/sugar thing there, which I never thought of before.


Its true: they can't go longer than 2-4 hours without food on the standard american diet without feeling awful. They're a slave to their constantly rising and falling blood sugar levels, like the cigarette smoker is a slave to rising and falling levels of nicotine.

#127 youandme

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 10:47 PM

Funk, Hmmmm well I cant say I dissagree much with anything you say...

The problem they have had so far is proving if a pathogen is in you after an initial infection has come and seemingly gone (initial symptoms)

So building on what you are thinking...autoimmune disease appear to be left overs from viruses, pathogens, bugs...what form these leftovers take ?...bits of pathogen dna left behind..? the other theory is that the virus pathogen while active..switched on some negative reactions in the body so as to cause self to attack self.

The only way to find out..is to quantify/sort/nano image ones own DNA with whatever else one finds from a body sample....sounds like we are getting closer to finding this out...as you say that study regarding diabetes and a virus link...its not the first and it wont be the last link between a certain pathogen and so called autoimmunity.

Plaq...the thing with this is ..I dont think it's just Lyme it's helping with..in Australia they reckon the Lyme bug does not exist...yet many Sjogren's and Lupus sufferers are taking Plaq with success.

Cheers


If I had to speculate I'd say when it works its because they are semi-successfully treating Lyme. We do know that a significant number of those with positive sjogren's antibodies and positive ANA's (I actually have a positive ANA and so does my lyme positive mother) actually have undiagnosed Lyme as the underlying cause. However, not all cases of sjogren's and lupus respond positively to plaquenil.

So I would guess that when it works, you're treating Lyme, and when it doesn't work, the autoimmunity is provoked by a different intracellular infection.

My mother had sjogren's too until I gave her 5000iu of Vitamin D. Sjogren's antibodies have been undetectable since. Little change in overall health though (still sick with Lyme). I think these autoimmune diseases are garbage diagnoses the same way fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue is. They are categorizing a group of signs and symptoms but tell you nothing about the underlying pathology.

Even childhood Type 1 diabetes now looks like its caused by a particular virus. Eventually we will identify all of the real causes for autoimmune diseases and the current autoimmune paradigm will go the way of the dodo.


Edited by youandme, 13 March 2009 - 11:15 PM.


#128 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 06:03 AM

Funk, Hmmmm well I cant say I dissagree much with anything you say...

The problem they have had so far is proving if a pathogen is in you after an initial infection has come and seemingly gone (initial symptoms)

So building on what you are thinking...autoimmune disease appear to be left overs from viruses, pathogens, bugs...what form these leftovers take ?...bits of pathogen dna left behind..? the other theory is that the virus pathogen while active..switched on some negative reactions in the body so as to cause self to attack self.

The only way to find out..is to quantify/sort/nano image ones own DNA with whatever else one finds from a body sample....sounds like we are getting closer to finding this out...as you say that study regarding diabetes and a virus link...its not the first and it wont be the last link between a certain pathogen and so called autoimmunity.

Plaq...the thing with this is ..I dont think it's just Lyme it's helping with..in Australia they reckon the Lyme bug does not exist...yet many Sjogren's and Lupus sufferers are taking Plaq with success.


I don't think there is *that* much difficulty proving the pathogen is still there. You only find what you look for. How many people with autoimmune diseases have taken a proper western blot test run by Igenex? How many have tested for chlamydia pneumoniae, mycoplasma, and other intracellular bacteria and viruses? How many have run empiric trials of antibiotic therapy? Very few, but those that do find success more often than not.

They have Lyme in Australia, although there is some controversy surrounding it. And, the cystic form of borrelia burgdorferi is not the only pathogen plaquenil can kill -- at the very least it is also anti-malarial, but its spectrum of activity is probably broader than that.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 14 March 2009 - 06:04 AM.


#129 youandme

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 07:24 AM

Funk
Well I dont know but those children who were found to have enteroviruses (yet to be identified which ones) in their Pancreas after they died..kinda shows the issues.
reference: Type 1 Diabetes - Virus link

I believe a new special technique was used to find these viruses...but only after the children passed away.

Yes we can check for Lyme...we have no figures to know how many people are Lyme infected and who have been diagnosed as having Autoimmune disease nor do we know how many people with Autoimmune disease have been checked for Lyme and are negative.

Of course we can check for some of the others as you mention..but beleive it or not different locales have different tests..not all are available everywhere...and I still would argue we have a long wayto go before we can get a certain diagnosis for everyone.

Saying all that..I hope Plaq does it for you and for me !!

Makes me wonder why we dont just hit ourselves with antivirals for good measure...my most likely pathogen is some kind of chicken pox/camplyobacter mix..
..rather than Lyme....

Ive just read this about Lyme in Australia..see what you think.

http://medent.usyd.e...yme disease.htm


I also know that Plaq does not cure but treat..Ive never heard of anyone being cured of their so called Autoimmune Disease with Plaq ...still hope it will get us back on track...


Ive started intermittent fasting today ,....will see how we go...unfortunately Im as lean as a bean as well...












I don't think there is *that* much difficulty proving the pathogen is still there. You only find what you look for. How many people with autoimmune diseases have taken a proper western blot test run by Igenex? How many have tested for chlamydia pneumoniae, mycoplasma, and other intracellular bacteria and viruses? How many have run empiric trials of antibiotic therapy? Very few, but those that do find success more often than not.

They have Lyme in Australia, although there is some controversy surrounding it. And, the cystic form of borrelia burgdorferi is not the only pathogen plaquenil can kill -- at the very least it is also anti-malarial, but its spectrum of activity is probably broader than that.


Edited by youandme, 14 March 2009 - 07:26 AM.


#130 remig

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 05:32 PM

I also know that Plaq does not cure but treat..Ive never heard of anyone being cured of their so called Autoimmune Disease with Plaq ...still hope it will get us back on track...


Ive started intermittent fasting today ,....will see how we go...unfortunately Im as lean as a bean as well...

Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine) is a strong autophagy inhibitor. If you are doing ADCR to promote autophagy while taking it, you might be working at cross purposes.

#131 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 06:35 PM

I also know that Plaq does not cure but treat..Ive never heard of anyone being cured of their so called Autoimmune Disease with Plaq ...still hope it will get us back on track...


Ive started intermittent fasting today ,....will see how we go...unfortunately Im as lean as a bean as well...

Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine) is a strong autophagy inhibitor. If you are doing ADCR to promote autophagy while taking it, you might be working at cross purposes.


Wow, thank you for the heads up. I had no idea, and now as I look into it you're absolutely correct. In fact, it is being used in conjunction with chemotherapy in clinical trials to make some tumors more sensitive by blocking autophagy. I guess this is the reason you make a public thread like this, to tap the wisdom of the crowd.

I will aim for a slightly different regimen: IM bicillin, a tetracycline, tinidazole, and either rifampin or bactrim.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 15 March 2009 - 06:36 PM.


#132 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 11:56 PM

Brief version of my medical history:

I had some hematological abnormalities as a child (low WBC, low platelets, anemia). Bone marrow was performed, results were normal. This was ignored for the rest of my childhood and early adulthood although it continued to persist.

At five years old, I got migraines every day during a stressful period. I had an MRI performed and something else which came back normal. Eventually the headaches stopped. Also had asthma, allergies, and undiagnosed ADD, which was not picked up because I was intelligent enough to do well in school despite it.

In my later teens I began to notice that my libido was dropping, and this became really pronounced in my early twenties. I also began to develop digestive problems in my early 20's, and was depressed at various times.

In my mid 20's I was now tired and had "brain fog" all the time in addition to the other problems. I thought I was deficient in testosterone, but this came back normal. Then I went to see an endocrinologist because I still suspected there was something wrong hormonally. In fact, there turned out to be many abnormalities: low DHEA, high LH, high FSH, low estradiol.

I wasted lots of time trying to figure that out. The low DHEA and other symptoms led me to adrenal fatigue, which I thought I had for awhile. Taking 50mg DHEA didn't help, and actually lowered my testosterone from 720 to 450 ng/dL. I tried all kinds of supplements for adrenal fatigue with little success. I began to wonder what would cause me to have adrenal fatigue, since I had a very relaxing, stress-free lifestyle.

I thought maybe my digestive problems were the source of stress, and maybe they were caused by food allergies? Maybe I had candida? Wasted all kinds of time trying different diets, although I did learn a couple valuable things, that I seem to be lactose intolerant and gluten sensitive.

I was now getting a little desperate because there was clearly something wrong with me, but it was all these vague and seemingly unrelated problems (ADD, brain fog, fatigue, digestive problems, low libido, hematological abnormalities, hormonal abnormalities). I was still able to come up with nothing better than adrenal fatigue to explain it, and even then, still didn't know why I would have adrenal fatigue. There had to be a root cause, something that could explain everything. It continued to elude me.

I saw the endocrinologist again when my TSH came up high (5.2), and free t3 and t4 were normal but at the low end of the range. I started on thyroid hormone and achieved optimal levels of free t3 and free t4. It improved my fatigue somewhat and lowered my cholesterol into from borderline high LDL to optimal HDL and LDL values. However, the rest of my symptoms continued to plague me and I was again left wondering what was causing the mild hypothyroidism (and everything else).

The turning point came when I tried Low Dose Naltrexone to see if it would help my fatigue and digestive troubles. Instead of helping, all hell broke loose. I began to have chest pain, palpitations, numbness and tingling in my extremities, arms and legs, muscles twitching all over, eyelids twitching, neck stiffness, stiffness in my right calf, "buzzing" nerve sensation all along the back of my right leg, weakness in my right leg, pain in specific areas of head, sensation of pressure in head, severe anxiety, severe brain fog, balance problems (lost balance if I closed my eyes or room was dark). There's probably more, so many things happened its difficult to recall.

Needless to say, I freaked the hell out -- that was probably the scariest time of my life. I thought I had multiple sclerosis or something based on the neurological symptoms and I was thinking things like, I wonder if Olga is going to leave me if I end up in a wheelchair. I went to my primary care physician, he ran an EKG which was normal, assured me that I did not have a heart attack (I had an episode of severe chest pain with pain radiating into my left arm and up into my neck). He thought it was some kind of side effect of naltrexone, which it most assuredly was not. I suspected there might be some autoimmune problem that the LDN aggravated by boosting my immune system, so I had him run some labs, and I did have positive ANA antibodies at a low titer, suggesting the beginnings of Lupus.

I went home and started thinking and researching. LDN powerfully boosts the immune system, so it had to be something immune related. I was unwilling to accept an autoimmune condition. It was obvious to me that the entire class of autoimmune diseases were BS even as I first started learning about them, that they were simply labeling groups of signs and symptoms without correctly identifying or understanding the true underlying pathology. I came back to my long-standing hematological abnormalities -- what could cause a low WBC and low platelets? My bone marrow was normal, so what was happening to the blood cells? They must be getting destroyed peripherally. Why? A chronic infection seemed to be the most likely explanation. Now I was getting somewhere.

What chronic infections could cause this diverse array of symptoms, both my long-standing symptoms since childhood and these new ones that appeared after trying LDN? Lyme Disease was the most likely suspect, especially given my location in Connecticut, the epicenter of the disease. I went to see a Lyme specialist in the area, had the western blot performed, and came up both IgM and IgG positive. I also had the CD-57 panel performed, which measures the number of a subset of natural killer cells whose role it is to attack pathogens with lipopolysaccharide antigens (the type featured by borrelia burgdorferi). Mine was low at 36 in a range of 60-360, which indicates long-standing infection (typically CD-57 count does not drop until after the first year of infection).

So that was how I discovered I had Lyme Disease. I was very fortunate to try LDN and provoke some of the more classic Lyme symptoms to begin, otherwise I might not have figured it out for much longer. For most of my life, I was just vaguely ill with the kind of typical complaints people come to ImmInst with all the time and try to fix with nootropics or other supplements. I played that game for years.

I've been on mickey mouse antibiotics for about six months, but even monotherapy with tetracycline has improved my condition quite a bit. Most of my newer, post-LDN symptoms are under control and very mild now. I am seeing a new and much more aggressive doctor and am about to start a four or five drug antibiotic cocktail that I expect to deliver the knockout punch. And, I am doing everything that could possibly be remotely helpful to stack the odds in my favor.

Its alot easier once you actually know what's wrong with you.



Changes to regimen (updated on first page):

Removed

Na-RALA - don't want to interfere with adaptation provoked by alternate day fasting / light CR
Neptune Krill Oil - too expensive, started to question advantages over regular fish oil, wanted a bit more DHA / EPA
Flaxseed Oil - I get enough ALA in my diet now
Now Curcumin - Not taking this daily anymore, replaced by nano-curcumin on fasting days
AOR Ortho Adapt - now I'm leaning toward adrenal fatigue not existing anymore. I'm fickle like that.

Changed

Olive Leaf Extract - replaced morning and lunch 250mg capsules with 500mg capsules. Will increase dinner dose to 500mg after adjustment period (OLE is super potent and difficult for me to tolerate)
Diet - started alternate day fasting and protein cycling w/ mild CR

Added
Natural Factors Rx-Omega3 Fish Oil: 200mg DHA 400mg EPA, 1 gelcap 2x daily
Jarrow Saccharomyces Boulardii: 250mg w/ breakfast
AOR Curecumin (nano-curcumin dissolved in sesame oil): 750mg 2x during fasting period on fasting days (approximately lunch and dinner times)
RevGenetics Nitro 250: 250mg micronized resveratrol in tween 80 2x during fasting period on fasting days (approximately lunch and dinner times)
Bromelain: 600GDU 3x daily with tetracycline
Serrapeptase: 20,000iu 3x daily with tetracycline
Nattokinase: 2000 FU at bedtime

The enzymes definitely potentiate the tetracycline. I could only tolerate bromelain once a day initially, then twice, then three times, then serrapeptase, and finally added nattokinase. I had blood drawn today, wound clotted normally.

#133 youandme

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 10:08 AM

Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine) is a strong autophagy inhibitor. If you are doing ADCR to promote autophagy while taking it, you might be working at cross purposes.


Thx remig...I should see how we go with ADCR first before Plaq..

Funk
Your history strikes a chord with me in many ways...have you had to keep on with Thyroid hormone or were you able to drop off that.

#134 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 01:42 PM

I'm still on the thyroid hormone, 45mg armour thyroid 3x daily.

#135 notlupus

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:17 PM

I'm still on the thyroid hormone, 45mg armour thyroid 3x daily.


Do you let the armour dissolve sublingually? I noticed you take a multi mineral three times daily as well. I've been only taking minerals at night before bed for fear they'd interfere with thyroid absorption. The pills are designed to dissolve sublingually as well as be swallowed, but I haven't been doing that lately (tried once before for several months, ended up quitting because I wasn't sure if it was realted to the salivary duct stone I developed).

#136 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:31 PM

I just swallow them. T4 is absorbed slightly better while fasting, T3 is absorbed completely no matter what. I take the morning and bedtime doses while fasting, and the midday dose is generally a couple hours after lunch. I don't see any problems taking it with minerals.

edit: actually calcium inhibits absorption of T4 by about 30% (roughly similar to taking it with food) so watch for that.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 17 March 2009 - 03:56 PM.


#137 notlupus

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:48 PM

I just swallow them. T4 is absorbed slightly better while fasting, T3 is absorbed completely no matter what. I take the morning and bedtime doses while fasting, and the midday dose is generally a couple hours after lunch. I don't see any problems taking it with minerals.


Good to know. It seems to be fairly easy to decrease absorption of T4, even a cup of coffee will reduce it by about 1/3. Not many studies on T3.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

#138 nameless

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:59 PM

I'm still on the thyroid hormone, 45mg armour thyroid 3x daily.

Is that 15mg 3x daily, for 45mg total? Or 135mg total daily?

If 135mg, it seems like a pretty large dose for a TSH in the 5ish range, unless your T3/T4 didn't respond too well to smaller doses. And did you try T4 alone before trying Armour? Curious if you noticed any difference.

I'm currently on 50mcg of T4 for mild Hashi's, and haven't noticed anything really from it, good or bad.

#139 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:06 PM

Its 135mg total. I was on 90mg (30mg 3x daily) for awhile and my free T3 was below the normal range (I forget the unit, range was 100-220 and my value was 90) so we just recently made this adjustment and will recheck in a few weeks.

I tried 25mcg of T4 for awhile before embarking on armour and T4 didn't do anything for me whatsoever. Armour noticeably helps fatigue.

#140 nameless

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:26 PM

Its 135mg total. I was on 90mg (30mg 3x daily) for awhile and my free T3 was below the normal range (I forget the unit, range was 100-220 and my value was 90) so we just recently made this adjustment and will recheck in a few weeks.

I tried 25mcg of T4 for awhile before embarking on armour and T4 didn't do anything for me whatsoever. Armour noticeably helps fatigue.

What is considered optimal for T3? My endo said usually he likes to see it at about 50% of range.

My T3 before treatment was 102 (range 80-200), if I remember right, while my T4 was pretty optimal.

I started on 25mcg and it was the same as taking a sugar pill. Recently started on 50mcg and I'm hoping it converts some of that T4 to T3, although I'm not totally sure how that works. I don't want to see my T4 rise above range, while my T3 doesn't budge. I have a feeling that my endo won't give me Armour to try, although he's not totally adverse to it. But I think he only prescribes it if T4 doesn't work first and T3 is below range.

#141 notlupus

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 07:10 PM

Its 135mg total. I was on 90mg (30mg 3x daily) for awhile and my free T3 was below the normal range (I forget the unit, range was 100-220 and my value was 90) so we just recently made this adjustment and will recheck in a few weeks.

I tried 25mcg of T4 for awhile before embarking on armour and T4 didn't do anything for me whatsoever. Armour noticeably helps fatigue.


That's a pretty big jump, but since armour supresses your TSH it might be what you need. I'm 120lbs and have to take 105mg armour a day. I find it interferes with my sleep less if I take 75 in the morning and 30 in the afternoon.

#142 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 08:11 PM

Its 135mg total. I was on 90mg (30mg 3x daily) for awhile and my free T3 was below the normal range (I forget the unit, range was 100-220 and my value was 90) so we just recently made this adjustment and will recheck in a few weeks.

I tried 25mcg of T4 for awhile before embarking on armour and T4 didn't do anything for me whatsoever. Armour noticeably helps fatigue.


That's a pretty big jump, but since armour supresses your TSH it might be what you need. I'm 120lbs and have to take 105mg armour a day. I find it interferes with my sleep less if I take 75 in the morning and 30 in the afternoon.


My TSH was 2.something so I was definitely too low at 90mg. We'll see what happens. I do know that thyroid replacement is supposed to scale somewhat proportionally with weight, and on a mg/kg basis your dose is significantly higher than even my new 135mg dose (I'm 185 lbs).

#143 notlupus

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 09:25 PM

My TSH was 2.something so I was definitely too low at 90mg. We'll see what happens. I do know that thyroid replacement is supposed to scale somewhat proportionally with weight, and on a mg/kg basis your dose is significantly higher than even my new 135mg dose (I'm 185 lbs).


My last tsh was 0.08 or something but the total and free levels were within the normal range. Of course my doctor feels that keeping the TSH in the normal range is more important than T4/T3 so it's a constant fight to stay at the dose I am on. :-D At this point I pretty much don't have a functioning thyroid, so TSH doesn't really do anything. It's a single tissue's opinion of the thyroid hormone levels, and the rest of my body prefers a higher dose of hormone than my pituitary. My doctor claims that excessive thyroid replacement can shorten lifespan and cause all sorts of problems, but I don't really care if I'm too tired to have any quality of life on the lower dose.

#144 youandme

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 06:21 AM

While we are all talking thyroid levels...Im on 160mcg of Armour per day...take it in the morning.

My last TSH was 0.03..Doc wants me to back off the dose..yet my T4 is not optimal and my T3 barely.

They keep threatening me that I will develop Osteoporosis..amongst other things.

I dont feel hyper at all btw..Im trying simply to feel better ..as normal as possible.

#145 notlupus

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Posted 18 March 2009 - 04:27 PM

While we are all talking thyroid levels...Im on 160mcg of Armour per day...take it in the morning.

My last TSH was 0.03..Doc wants me to back off the dose..yet my T4 is not optimal and my T3 barely.

They keep threatening me that I will develop Osteoporosis..amongst other things.

I dont feel hyper at all btw..Im trying simply to feel better ..as normal as possible.


Sounds like we are dealing with the same thing. Doesn't help me that I'm 120lbs, I guess the docs all assume I want to take "too much" to lose weight, although before I had the thyroid problems I was about 110 so it's not making me waste away to nothing. I've lost a couple lbs, but it's mostly because of the antibiotics upsetting my stomach. At one point I tried doxy and amoxi and it literally made me puke.

I might order the cattle version of Bicillin CR and give up on the docs for a while. I've given myself and animals injections before and have a couple months of probenecid to help even out the pen levels.

#146 Lufega

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 06:47 PM

I there a difference in absorption in taking glutamine fasted or with food? I also take other amino acids fasted, ALCAR and sometimes tyrosine and I find it hard to schedule in glutamine.

Also, it seems like magnesium inhibits the action (not sure if partly or completely) of lithium. How far apart should these be taken?

#147 k10

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Posted 22 March 2009 - 09:53 PM

AOR Ortho Adapt - now I'm leaning toward adrenal fatigue not existing anymore. I'm fickle like that.


Low GABA ;)

#148 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 06:46 PM

I saw my Lyme doc on Friday, and discovered some important things. I was actually IgG positive for Rocky Spotted Mountain Fever, but not IgM positive, and she felt that reflected past exposure. How random is that?

It looks like I've been shooting myself in the foot with a couple of my supplements. My testosterone was low at 250 ng/dl for the first time ever, when its normally over 700. I suspected a supplement might be responsible because that is a drastic and sudden drop compared to high values less than a year ago. Here's what turned up:

Chin J Physiol. 2000 Sep 30;43(3):99-103.
Inhibition of testosterone secretion by S-petasin in rat testicular interstitial cells.
Lin H, Chien CH, Lin YL, Chen CF, Wang PS.

Department of Physiology, School of Life Science, National Yang-Ming University, Taipei, Taiwan, ROC.

S-petasin, a kind of sesquiterpene ester, is the anti-inflammatory ann analgesic component of the butterbur (Petasites hybridus). The clinical benefit of S-petasin is the spasmolytic activity, but its side effects on the reproductive endocrinology are not clear yet. The present study was to explore the effects of S-petasin on the secretion of testosterone in vivo and in vitro. We found that single intravenous injection of S-petasin (1 microg/kg) decreased basal plasma testosterone concentration in adult male rats. The enzymatically dispersed rat testicular interstitial cells were incubated with S-petasin (0-4.3 x 10(-5)M) in the presence or absence of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG, 0.05 IU/ml), forskolin (adenylyl cyclase activator, 10(-5) M), and androstenedione (testosterone biosynthesis precursor, 10(-9) M) at 34 degrees C for 1 h. The concentrations of testosterone in the incubation medium were measured by radioimmunoassay. S-petasin at 4.3 x 10(-7) M was effective to reduce the basal and hCG-stimulated release of testosterone in rat testicular interstitial cells. The stimulatory effects of testosterone secretion induced by forskolin and androstenedione were significantly reduced by S-petasin at 4.3 x 10(-5) M and 4.3 x 10(-6) M, respectively. These results suggest that S-petasin inhibits the production of testosterone in rat testicular interstitial cells in part through diminishing the activities of adenylyl cyclase and 17-ketosteroid reductase.

PMID: 11132091


F*ckin butterbur. I banished it to a dark box in the corner of my basement immediately. I'll use ibuprofen in the future for relief from herx symptoms -- its more effective and won't neuter me in the process. Part of the problem may have been my continuous use of butterbur, since it is apparently supposed to be used as-needed. Whatever, its gone.

And then, my serum zinc and copper levels were both low. Now, I supplement with about 25mg of zinc and 2mg of copper daily, in addition to my diet which should be fairly rich in zinc and copper, so this had me seriously scratching my head. Another supplement in my regimen misbehaving? A chelator perhaps?

Endocr Metab Immune Disord Drug Targets. 2008 Jun;8(2):132-42.
Lipoic acid: a novel therapeutic approach for multiple sclerosis and other chronic inflammatory diseases of the CNS.
Salinthone S, Yadav V, Bourdette DN, Carr DW.

Portland Veterans Affairs Medical Center, VAMC RD-8, 3710 Portland, OR 97239, USA.

The naturally occurring antioxidant lipoic acid (LA) was first described as an essential cofactor for the conversion of pyruvate to Acetyl-CoA, a critical step in respiration. LA is now recognized as a compound that has many biological functions. Along with its reduced form dihydrolipoic acid (DHLA), LA reduces and recycles cellular antioxidants such as glutathione, and chelates zinc, copper and other transition metal ions in addition to heavy metals. LA can also act as a scavenger of reactive oxygen and nitrogen species. By acting as an insulin mimetic agent, LA stimulates glucose uptake in many different cell types and can also modulate insulin signaling. The p38 and ERK MAP kinase pathways, AKT and NFkappaB are all regulated by LA. In addition, LA activates the prostaglandin EP2 and EP4 receptors to stimulate the production of the small molecule cyclic adenosine 5' monophosphate (cAMP). These diverse actions suggest that LA may be therapeutically effective in treating oxidative stress associated diseases. This review discusses the known biochemical properties of LA, its antioxidant properties, its ability to modulate signal transduction pathways, and the recent progress made in the utilization of LA as a therapeutic alternative for multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's disease and diabetic neuropathy.

PMID: 18537699


I've been taking 300mg of super bioavailable turbo uber r-lipoic acid for many months now. Thanks for nothing Geronova. This one was already gone because I didn't want it to interfere with my alternate day fasting -- now its doubly gone.

To be fair, I am making some assumptions that butterbur and lipoic acid were responsible for these abnormal lab values, and I will have to wait for follow up tests in a month's time to confirm my suspicions.

My RBC magnesium was low despite supplementation with over 500mg of magnesium citrate daily. Another WTF result. I ordered some magnesium taurate and will use that as my source of taurine rather than free form taurine, providing an additional 500mg of magnesium daily. If there is a moral to the story, its that you have no friggin idea what is going on with your biochemistry unless you test everything, otherwise you are shooting blindly in the dark (and hitting yourself half of the time).

I've been prescribed 1.2mu bicillin IM shots 3x weekly, 100mg minocycline TID, 300mg rifampin BID, and 500mg tinidazole TID, and 100mg fluconazole every other day for yeast control. Pretty much exactly what I wanted. I'll be introducing one drug a week, beginning today with my first bicillin shot. Wish me luck!

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 30 March 2009 - 06:48 PM.


#149 nameless

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:05 PM

How accurate are zinc and copper serum tests? I thought neither were especially accurate --

From Linus Pauling Institute (for copper):

It is important to note that serum copper largely reflects serum ceruloplasmin and is not a sensitive indicator of copper nutritional status. Serum ceruloplasmin levels are known to increase by 50% or more under certain conditions of physical stress, such as trauma, inflammation, or disease. Because over 90% of serum copper is carried in ceruloplasmin, which is increased in many inflammatory conditions, elevated serum copper may simply be a marker of inflammation that accompanies atherosclerosis.

And for Zinc I'm pretty sure I read that testing through white blood cells or even a taste test was more accurate than serum.

What forms of zinc and copper are you using? And as for Magnesium, have you used an Albion (glycinate) chelate, or orotate? They should both absorb pretty well, or at least better than citrate does. I'm a bit wary of the citrates due to potential for increased aluminum absorption from other sources, which can happen with calcium citrate.

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#150 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 07:13 PM

Maybe there are other methods with superior accuracy, but when the result is out of range low, that means your value is lower than 97.5% of the rest of the world. That's a significant result. And would it not make sense that the first place a chelator would rob zinc and copper from would be serum?

I'm using Jarrow Zinc Balance and Now Multi-Minerals. These should be good bioavailable sources of zinc and copper.

I considered magnesium glycinate but I think magnesium taurinate (also called magnesium taurate) is equally bioavailable and would remove the need for a separate taurine supplement.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 30 March 2009 - 07:24 PM.





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