354 replies to this topic

[FunkOdyssey]

Updated regimen on first page. Some notes:

Discovered my wife also has Lyme. She was bit by a couple ticks when she was younger but I can't help but wonder if she was infected by me because she did not become symptomatic until last year. She had lightheadedness, dizzy spells, panic attacks, fatigue, numbness and tingling nerves, and muscle twitches, all of which have been resolved with antibiotic treatment. She is able to tolerate a considerably more aggressive regimen than I which I presume indicates lower bacterial load. We will take her off ABX after three months if she continues to be asymptomatic. She still has problems with occasional insomnia which we are working on.

I'm on Biaxin right now and about to add Plaquenil and then either Bactrim or Rifampin. Feeling pretty good lately.

Stopped taking vyvanse since I have been able to concentrate better recently. Continued antibiotic treatment of Lyme, abundant choline, raw cacao, pycnogenol, and bacopa may all be contributing positively to control ADD.

Ginger fixed my IBS problem of nine years and my nighttime (while sleeping) acid reflux. I am totally in love with ginger and am telling everyone who will listen about it.

Major changes in the regimen have occurred since the last update, if anyone wonders why I have added or removed something please feel free to ask.

[nameless]

Any concerns with ginger and drug interactions? I think I read it can increase the potency of certain medications, but I assume that is if taken at the same time (and in the case of antibiotics, that'd be a good thing anyway). I've also read it can have both hypo or hyper -tensive blood pressure effects in some people. I've considered ginger for my sensitive stomach, but have only used the small candies once in a while.

A couple of questions:
Why so much folate? Including multi-basics, you are sort of way up there.
No green tea?
Why the Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex? Does it include grapefruit?
Why did you drop glycine? I thought it helped with your sleep?

And not sure if you ever mentioned this, but have you been diagnosed with any co-infections besides Lyme? Bactrim/Rifampin is more for bartonella (or maybe a little babesia in the case of bactrim), from what I've read.

Edited by nameless, 16 November 2009 - 06:42 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Any concerns with ginger and drug interactions?
Not with the drugs I am taking.

A couple of questions:
Why so much folate? Including multi-basics, you are sort of way up there.
I just want methylfolate. AOR has supposedly replaced folic acid with methylfolate in recent production runs of their multivitamins. When this actually shows up in my Multi-Basics, I will drop the additional methylfolate.

No green tea?
I developed stomach irritation after taking doxycycline for some time, and green tea was making it worse. I'm waiting until I feel it is 110% healed before I start drinking tea again (soon).

Why the Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex? Does it include grapefruit?
For the circulatory system. It has a small amount of grapefruit, only 7mg of naringen which is maybe 20% of what you would find in an 8oz glass of grapefruit juice. If this results in elevated concentrations of my antibiotics that would be wonderful (I doubt this amount will do anything though).

Why did you drop glycine? I thought it helped with your sleep?
Awhile back I theorized that the large dose of glycine at nighttime was producing rebound anxiety during the day. I later found other culprits for this (overly high dose of thyroid medication, excessive taurine), but never reintroduced glycine. Since my sleep has been very good recently there has been no urgency there.

And not sure if you ever mentioned this, but have you been diagnosed with any co-infections besides Lyme? Bactrim/Rifampin is more a bartonella (or maybe a little babesia in the case of bactrim), from what I've read.
I was negative on the basic Quest labs serological antibody tests for the co-infections. However I want to try both medications to see how I react to them, since they cover different pathogens than the previous antibiotics I've used, while also being active against Lyme. It will be an empiric trial.

[Matt]

yes! ginger works so well for any nausea ive ever had, even from antibiotics. It helped me acid reflux but for me it was manuka honey that cured it. You might have already read here on the forum.

Heres a supplement, but is quite expensive!!!!

AHCC
HCC Proprietary Blend consisting of Hybridization of
several Basidomycetes mycelia extract
http://www.aor.ca/ht...ducts.php?id=17
http://www.aor.ca/as...ed_Compound.pdf

Edited by Matt, 16 November 2009 - 06:52 PM.

[kenj]

Lovin the ginger! Glad to hear it had such a fantastic effect on you, Funk. I'll be sure to make it a stable.

[nameless]

Doxy eventually bothered my stomach too, and led to sort of burning my esophagus once. Manuka honey helped with that.

Does ginger interact with any other medications? I'm on a couple of other things besides an antibiotic, so am a little afraid... although I don't think it should cause a problem. But that's also one reason I avoid grapefruit in bioflavanoids, sort of afraid a tiny bit still could cause some interaction.

Also noticed you dropped olive leaf. What was the reasoning for that? I've been considering trying it after I am done with antibiotics.

Have you considered IP-6? Just started that, and feel extra sickly... not sure if that's a good sign or not. I also seem to be the only person who ever noticed stomach upset from it, so am not sure if taking it on an empty stomach is a good idea for my belly.

My doc has mentioned Rifampin or one of the quinolones for me, but later on during treatment. But I've read Rifampin doesn't play well with other medications. Bactrim caused me all sorts of weirdness, so I couldn't try that one very long.

[FunkOdyssey]

Does ginger interact with any other medications?
Theoretically. However, I have not seen any solid evidence. If you want to read more about what ginger could "theoretically" interact with, look here:
http://www.nlm.nih.g...ml#Interactions

Also noticed you dropped olive leaf. What was the reasoning for that? I've been considering trying it after I am done with antibiotics.
Olive leaf makes me feel like crap. It always, consistently, makes me feel like crap. It may be some variety of herx reaction, or it may be a side effect, or I may be allergic to it. That confusion led me to stop taking OLE.

Have you considered IP-6? Just started that, and feel extra sickly... not sure if that's a good sign or not. I also seem to be the only person who ever noticed stomach upset from it, so am not sure if taking it on an empty stomach is a good idea for my belly.
I get some IP6 in my oatmeal, additional inositol in my NOW choline/inositol (majority of ingested IP6 is quickly metabolized to inositol anyway). Its something I'm keeping on my radar as a future possibility though.

My doc has mentioned Rifampin or one of the quinolones for me, but later on during treatment. But I've read Rifampin doesn't play well with other medications. Bactrim caused me all sorts of weirdness, so I couldn't try that one very long.
Yeah either of those drugs are tough. I'll be doing bi-monthly bloodwork and will be ready to pull the plug should anything serious start happening.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 16 November 2009 - 07:24 PM.

[Lufega]

5 mg of Methycobalamine gives me anxiety. It's a cofactor for epinephrine and generally, B12 is not well tolerated by patients with Mitral valve prolapse for this very reason

[nameless]

Ginger may also interfere with medications that change the contraction of the heart, including beta-blockers, digoxin, and other heart medications.

I'd like to find some data backing up that interaction. That's one reason I don't take ginger regularly.

AHCC potentially could be useful, but it is insanely expensive and I'm not sure how much better it is than a regular mushroom extract type product. And I'm also not sure if longterm daily mushroom use is even a good idea.

A couple of other questions:
Why do you want so much methylfolate?
I stopped taking MultiBasics until they switch over, but then began to wonder if methylfolate is necessarily better than folic acid. I mean, it should avoid the problem of excess folic acid causing a problem, but how do we know if 200%+ of the RDA for methylfolate is really a good thing?

Why mag citrate over another form? Aluminum absorption studies with other citrates not a concern?

And you probably could take a tea extract if your belly takes a while to heal up. Teavigo, for instance, is very belly friendly.

[FunkOdyssey]

AHCC potentially could be useful, but it is insanely expensive and I'm not sure how much better it is than a regular mushroom extract type product. And I'm also not sure if longterm daily mushroom use is even a good idea.

I used immune boosting mushroom extracts and epicor awhile ago, they were super expensive and did not help me at all. Studies of AHCC's effects on NK cell activity shows a short-term boost that gradually returns to baseline, so it is not even something that you can consistently depend on. I ensure the strength of my immune system with excellent nutrition, exercise, quality sleep and avoidance of stress.

I count on Lyme to provide all of the provocation my immune system needs to stay battle ready.

A couple of other questions:
Why do you want so much methylfolate?
I stopped taking MultiBasics until they switch over, but then began to wonder if methylfolate is necessarily better than folic acid. I mean, it should avoid the problem of excess folic acid causing a problem, but how do we know if 200%+ of the RDA for methylfolate is really a good thing?

I do not specifically want 800mcg of methylfolate. You are correct that we do not have enough information on methylfolate supplementation to arrive at an optimal dose. I take it to avoid problems caused by folic acid, because many people have one or another form of MTHFR polymorphism, and because it seems to have a subtle antidepressant-like effect.

Why mag citrate over another form? Aluminum absorption studies with other citrates not a concern?

Very cheap, relatively well absorbed, and citric acid is harmless and potentially beneficial (as opposed to say, aspartic acid). It agrees with my GI tract.

Not worried about aluminum. The only reason citric acid can increase aluminum absorption is precisely because it is such an excellent chelator of aluminum. This is the same reason that it increases aluminum excretion from the body and over time would be expected to be either neutral or helpful in reducing aluminum concentration in the body.

BTW, malic acid behaves almost the exact same way.

J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 1988;26(1-2):67-79.
Citric, malic and succinic acids as possible alternatives to deferoxamine in aluminum toxicity.
Domingo JL, Gómez M, Llobet JM, Corbella J.
Laboratory of Toxicology & Biochemistry, School of Medicine, University of Barcelona, Reus, Spain.

The effect of repeated intraperitoneal administration of deferoxamine, citric, malic and succinic acids on the distribution and excretion of aluminum was determined in male Swiss mice which had previously received aluminum nitrate intraperitoneally at a daily dose of 0.27 mmol/kg for five weeks. Chelating agents were administered for two weeks at doses approximately equal to one-fourth of their respective LD50. Treatment with DFOA, citric, malic or succinic acids significantly increased the fecal and urinary excretion of aluminum and reduced the concentration of aluminum found in various organs and tissues, with citric acid being the most effective. In sight of these results, citric, malic or succinic acids may be considered as alternatives to deferoxamine in aluminum toxicity. However, further investigations are required previous to the possible use of these compounds in human aluminum poisoning.

PMID: 3385849

And you probably could take a tea extract if your belly takes a while to heal up. Teavigo, for instance, is very belly friendly.

I will probably start drinking tea again next week, not long enough to invest in an extract.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 17 November 2009 - 03:25 PM.

[rwac]

Why do you want so much methylfolate?
I stopped taking MultiBasics until they switch over, but then began to wonder if methylfolate is necessarily better than folic acid. I mean, it should avoid the problem of excess folic acid causing a problem, but how do we know if 200%+ of the RDA for methylfolate is really a good thing?

I do not specifically want 800mcg of methylfolate. You are correct that we do not have enough information on methylfolate supplementation to arrive at an optimal dose. I take it to avoid problems caused by folic acid, because many people have one or another form of MTHFR polymorphism, and because it seems to have a subtle antidepressant-like effect.

Funk, have you tried folinic acid ?
Is there likely to be a big difference between folinic acid and methylfolate ?

[FunkOdyssey]

I've tried folinic acid and didn't really notice anything from it. It is certainly better than folic acid in that it bypasses dihydrofolate reductase (DHFR) which is another opportunity for folic acid metabolism to falter. It is still dependent on MTHFR though before it can do everything folate is supposed to do.

[nameless]

Not worried about aluminum. The only reason citric acid can increase aluminum absorption is precisely because it is such an excellent chelator of aluminum. This is the same reason that it increases aluminum excretion from the body and over time would be expected to be either neutral or helpful in reducing aluminum concentration in the body.

What about these studies:
Influence of organic acids on aluminium absorption and storage in rat tissues
http://cat.inist.fr/...&cpsidt=2977252

Influence of some dietary constituents on aluminum absorption and retention in rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2051716

Both appear to indicate increased aluminum in body tissues, especially from citrate. Granted these were rat studies, and most people won't be taking big doses of citrates along with large amounts of aluminum at the same time... but still... seems like it could be a concern for longterm use.

Edited by nameless, 17 November 2009 - 06:15 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

We don't have to look to rat studies here because we have human evidence:

J Am Coll Nutr. 1996 Feb;15(1):102-6.
The lack of influence of long-term potassium citrate and calcium citrate treatment in total body aluminum burden in patients with functioning kidneys.

Sakhaee K, Ruml L, Padalino P, Haynes S, Pak CY.

University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas 75235-8885, USA.

BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that citrate salts might enhance aluminum (Al) absorption from a normal diet, posing a threat of Al toxicity even in subjects with normal renal function. We have recently reported that in normal subjects and patients with moderate renal failure, short-term treatment with tricalcium dicitrate (Ca3Cit2) does not significantly change urinary and serum Al levels. However, we have not assessed total body Al stores in patients on long-term citrate treatment. OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study was to ascertain body content of Al non-invasively using the increment in serum and urinary Al following the intravenous administration of deferoxamine (DFO) in patients with kidney stones and osteoporotic women undergoing long-term treatment with potassium citrate (K3Cit) or Ca3Cit2, respectively. METHODS: Ten patients with calcium nephrolithiasis and five with osteoporosis who were maintained on potassium citrate (40 mEq/day or more) or calcium citrate 800 mg calcium/day (40 mEq citrate) for 2 to 8 years, respectively, and 16 normal volunteers without a history of regular aluminum-containing antacid use participated in the study. All participants completed the 8 days of study, during which they were maintained on their regular home diet. Urinary Al excretion was measured during a two-day baseline before (Days 5, 6) and for 1 day (Day 7) immediately following a single intravenous dose of DFO (40 mg/kg). Blood for Al was obtained before DFO administration, and at 2, 5 and 24 hours following the start of the infusion. RESULTS: The median 24-hour urinary Al excretion (microgram/day) at baseline versus post-DFO value was 15.9 vs. 44.4 in the normal subjects and 13.3 vs. 35.7 in the patients. These values were all within normal limits and did not change significantly following DFO infusion (p = 0.003 and p = 0.0001, respectively). The median change of 17.1 micrograms/day in urinary Al in the normal subjects was not significantly different from the 18.7 micrograms/day change measured in the patient group (p = 0.30). Similarly, no change in the mean serum Al was detected at any time following the DFO infusion, either in the patient or control group (patients 4.1 to 4.3 ng/ml, controls 7.4 to 4.6 ng/ml). CONCLUSION: The results suggest that abnormal total body retention of Al does not occur during long-term citrate treatment in patients with functioning kidneys.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 17 November 2009 - 06:24 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

The significance of the study being that long-term citrate users excrete similar amounts of aluminum in response to DFO than the controls, indicating similar body stores of aluminum.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 17 November 2009 - 06:31 PM.

[nameless]

The significance of the study being that long-term citrate users excrete similar amounts of aluminum in response to DFO than the controls, indicating similar body stores of aluminum.

The excretion studies I've read on people are somewhat confusing to me (not the one you posted, but others), as I wonder if increased aluminum excretion via urine simply means citrate is chelating and removing aluminum, yet the studies typically state it means increased absorption.

And I agree it probably isn't a concern. It's just one of those things in the back of my mind that'd worry me if I took mag citrate... I'd think of the rats.

[jwilcox25]

any reason you're not taking ALCAR and ALA anymore, compared to your older Anti-Aging list? Or does this list just not include em? Asking cuz I was considering adding these to my own regimen after reading your old list

also, VSL3 vs. Culturelle?

[FunkOdyssey]

any reason you're not taking ALCAR and ALA anymore, compared to your older Anti-Aging list? Or does this list just not include em? Asking cuz I was considering adding these to my own regimen after reading your old list

also, VSL3 vs. Culturelle?

ALA has had some questionable studies come out recently, in one it blocked the normal effects of a CR diet in rats, and in another it drastically reduced SAMe levels. I don't really trust it anymore.

ALCAR is one of those things I was taking forever on the assumption that it was helpful, until I ran out of it for a time, and felt no different at all. I looked into carnitine metabolism a bit and it turns out, this is pretty tightly regulated, existing carnitine is well-conserved, levels are usually already optimal (even on a vegetarian diet!) and supplemental carnitine just increases the rate of carnitine excretion. Positive results in human studies typically involve the elderly and high doses.

Culturelle is a good probiotic for the average person but I do not trust it to protect me against the consequences of long-term combination antibiotic therapy due to its small number of CFU. VSL#3 DS provides two orders of magnitude greater numbers of bacteria, and I like the fact that it includes bifidobacteria. Also, since VSL#3 DS is available by prescription only it is covered by my insurance. If you tried to get 900 billion CFU daily with over the counter probiotics it would cost upwards of $150 a month.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 19 November 2009 - 03:16 PM.

[nameless]

One other good thing about VSL#3 DS is that your doctor (if he/she is willing) can write a dose higher than you normally take, saving you lots of money.

I think the recommended highest dose is 4 packs/daily, which my doc wrote for my script. That comes out to 6 boxes of 20 packets. And I take around 1/3rd packet daily. So for a $20 copay I get approx. a year's supply of probiotics at 300 billion CFU daily -- which wouldn't last as long if you took an entire packet daily, of course. But if your doc is willing, try to get the max limit per script.

Which of the three, Pepzin GI, VSL or ginger had the greatest benefit for your acid reflux/IBS? I know you said ginger helped you, but were you able to determine which of the three helped the most?

I've considered trying Pepzin GI, as I have some odd belly problems (not sure if intestinal, acid reflux, sensitive stomach or whatever).

Edited by nameless, 19 November 2009 - 06:50 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Which of the three, Pepzin GI, VSL or ginger had the greatest benefit for your acid reflux/IBS? I know you said ginger helped you, but were you able to determine which of the three helped the most?

I've considered trying Pepzin GI, as I have some odd belly problems (not sure if intestinal, acid reflux, sensitive stomach or whatever).

In order of most effective to least effective: ginger, VSL#3, pepzin GI. Ginger has been nothing short of amazing. VSL#3 produced some modest improvement.

To be honest, I don't think pepzin GI does much of anything beyond ordinary zinc. I also think the few published studies were conducted by the manufacturer, and they did not use another form of zinc for comparison. When I run out I will just start using zinc glycinate or something instead.

[nameless]

Which of the three, Pepzin GI, VSL or ginger had the greatest benefit for your acid reflux/IBS? I know you said ginger helped you, but were you able to determine which of the three helped the most?

I've considered trying Pepzin GI, as I have some odd belly problems (not sure if intestinal, acid reflux, sensitive stomach or whatever).

In order of most effective to least effective: ginger, VSL#3, pepzin GI. Ginger has been nothing short of amazing. VSL#3 produced some modest improvement.

To be honest, I don't think pepzin GI does much of anything beyond ordinary zinc. I also think the few published studies were conducted by the manufacturer, and they did not use another form of zinc for comparison. When I run out I will just start using zinc glycinate or something instead.

Thanks for the info. Saves me some money then by not wasting it on Pepzin. I already have zinc glycinate, but I don't really notice any stomach benefits from it.

I'm thinking about trying low dose ginger several hours away from medications. I have some ginger candies here that I guess could work as an experiment.

[jwilcox25]

any reason you're not taking ALCAR and ALA anymore, compared to your older Anti-Aging list? Or does this list just not include em? Asking cuz I was considering adding these to my own regimen after reading your old list

also, VSL3 vs. Culturelle?

ALA has had some questionable studies come out recently, in one it blocked the normal effects of a CR diet in rats, and in another it drastically reduced SAMe levels. I don't really trust it anymore.

ALCAR is one of those things I was taking forever on the assumption that it was helpful, until I ran out of it for a time, and felt no different at all. I looked into carnitine metabolism a bit and it turns out, this is pretty tightly regulated, existing carnitine is well-conserved, levels are usually already optimal (even on a vegetarian diet!) and supplemental carnitine just increases the rate of carnitine excretion. Positive results in human studies typically involve the elderly and high doses.

Culturelle is a good probiotic for the average person but I do not trust it to protect me against the consequences of long-term combination antibiotic therapy due to its small number of CFU. VSL#3 DS provides two orders of magnitude greater numbers of bacteria, and I like the fact that it includes bifidobacteria. Also, since VSL#3 DS is available by prescription only it is covered by my insurance. If you tried to get 900 billion CFU daily with over the counter probiotics it would cost upwards of $150 a month.

Thanks! Your responses are very helpful. I too was concerned about recent research on ALA preventing CR benefits, and suspected that was the reason you dropped it. The insurance pricing for VSL#3 is a good point that I didn't think of, might look into this. Downside compared to Culturelle is that it doesn't contain lactobacillus GG (proprietary?), which has a great number of studies behind it. Since we're not on long-term antibiotics, 10 billion CFU daily may be enough for the average person, as you said.

Thanks again

[edit] also is there research that suggests that multiple strains of probiotics are more beneficial than just one, as opposed to them competing with each other? if so, i may consider adding partial doses of VSL#3 to culturelle

Edited by jwilcox25, 19 November 2009 - 08:22 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

VSL#3 also requires that you mix a large amount of freeze-dried bacteria powder into water and drink it down every day, which is not super appealing to everyone.

I haven't run into any research specifically comparing one strain vs. multiple strains, but VSL#3 itself has 90 studies in pubmed, many of them in humans, so could give those abstracts a quick read and see what you think.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 19 November 2009 - 08:25 PM.

[nameless]

Sorry for so many questions (realizes he has asked a lot), but a quick question about the cacao powder. Have you ever made hot cocoa from it, and if so, how does it taste? Mix well? Too bitter, or just right?

I'm thinking of using Navitas as a hot cocoa, after trying some samples of cocoa powder (cococeps) that were really tasty. But the cococeps are sorta dinky as far as actual cocoa content, and expensive.

It'd also be interesting to see a polyphenol count for the Navitas, but I don't think they analyze that data.

[FunkOdyssey]

Sorry for so many questions (realizes he has asked a lot), but a quick question about the cacao powder. Have you ever made hot cocoa from it, and if so, how does it taste? Mix well? Too bitter, or just right?

I'm thinking of using Navitas as a hot cocoa, after trying some samples of cocoa powder (cococeps) that were really tasty. But the cococeps are sorta dinky as far as actual cocoa content, and expensive.

It'd also be interesting to see a polyphenol count for the Navitas, but I don't think they analyze that data.

My wife has made hot cocoa from it and tastes very good, however you cannot eat a large amount of powder that way (I prefer 3 tablespoons or about 18g per serving) because it is not very soluble in milk. You can dissolve maybe a teaspoon of powder per 4-6oz of milk. The powder is just slightly bitter, not bad at all.

Larger amounts mix more easily with my whey protein isolate which made me wonder if the casein or another component of whole milk was causing the powder to clump. That or the little metal whisk ball thing in my shaker bottle is helping.

[nameless]

Ever try mixing it with water instead? I never use milk anyway for my hot cocoas. If it's casein causing it to clump, maybe it'll mix nice in water.

[niner]

Ever try mixing it with water instead? I never use milk anyway for my hot cocoas. If it's casein causing it to clump, maybe it'll mix nice in water.

Cocoa in water is my standard hot drink. I mix the cocoa with splenda as powders first. This does a lot to prevent clumping. Then I add just a teaspoon of hot water, and mix it into a paste. Then I dump the rest of the hot water in, and I have no clumps at all. I don't use an insanely large amount of cocoa when I do this; it's less than a tablespoon

[nameless]

Out of curiosity I contacted Navitas to see if they had a polyphenol count on their cocoa powder, which surprisingly they did:

Polyphenol Testing Assay = 107mg/g (11%)
ORAC Testing Assay = 947 ORAC Units/g

If accurate, I think that's pretty good, higher than average.

[FunkOdyssey]

Thanks for the info nameless, very interesting. I notice that one capsule of LEF's CocoaGold cocoa polyphenol product provides 130mg of polyphenols, so it can't be a very concentrated extract, barely different than straight cocoa powder.

It looks like I'm getting nearly 2,000mg of cocoa polyphenols per serving of the navitas powder (!!!??).

[nameless]

I'm not sure what percentage of polyphenols are in most cocoas , but when I contacted Madre about Cococeps, they stated 50 mg/g was the average, and Cococeps was approx. 350mg polyphenols per serving. So Navitas is around double that (assuming their tests were accurate) and also cheaper.

And CocoaGold is pretty dinky no matter what standard you use. LEF used to state on their info page (not sure if they do anymore) that one capsule is equivalent to a bar of chocolate, but unless they are counting Hershey's samplers as a 'bar', I don't think it adds up.