49 replies to this topic

[j03]

I know alcohol is oxidizing, and converts to estrogen (Or aromatases estrogen receptors?), etc.

But what are the dangers of moderate drinking. Say a beer or two a day.

Is there any damage being done, and advanced aging happening?

What are precautions i can take besides abstinence?

Edited by j033, 20 February 2009 - 08:43 PM.

[VictorBjoerk]

Alcohol dries the skin and deprives the body from vitamines. It is not good for your organs. Alcohol is unnecessary calories and will help you develop diabetes and other metabolic problems, cardiovascular problems like weakened heart muscle and arteriosclerosis.
There is no reason to drink any alcohol at all, the potential benefits are hyped. Not that a glass of beer a day will do a lot of harm necessarily but there is no convincing reason to drink it.
Also it can cause dilated blood vessels in your face, drinking alcohol can make your face look permanently puffy due to water retention and other things.

Alcohol as far as I understand can make women less feminine through inhibiting estrogen just like injecting yourself with testosterone a lot can make you impotent, and in men who have small quantities of estrogen it raises the levels.

Split your intake during the day instead of drinking all at once if you can't resist it.

So alcohol causes a lot of unnecessary "aging" although it is hard to define aging,damage may be a better word.

Edited by VictorBjoerk, 20 February 2009 - 09:47 PM.

[lucid]

Alcohol dries the skin and deprives the body from vitamines. It is not good for your organs. Alcohol is unnecessary calories and will help you develop diabetes and other metabolic problems, cardiovascular problems like weakened heart muscle and arteriosclerosis.
There is no reason to drink any alcohol at all, the potential benefits are hyped. Not that a glass of beer a day will do a lot of harm necessarily but there is no convincing reason to drink it.
Also it can cause dilated blood vessels in your face, drinking alcohol can make your face look permanently puffy due to water retention and other things.

What is your source for saying that "there is no reason to drink alcohol at all"? As it turns out there is a LARGE body of evidence suggesting that 1 glass a day of alcohol is healthy. This is confirmed by more controlled studies in rodents. Not to troll, but almost everything that you said is wrong with regards to low and moderate alcohol consumption (with the exception of splitting up drinks being good for you). Just read the laundry list of (mostly) benefits: http://en.wikipedia....tion_and_health

@j033
A beer or 2 a day is good for you. They are probably better if not had within the same hour, but even that is going to depend on your body weight. Mice studies show that mice with EtOH mixed in their water live approximately 5% longer. Im not sure but I believe that the mice kept a BAC around the equivalent of 1 drink.

Edited by lucid, 20 February 2009 - 10:08 PM.

[j03]

I like to have a beer or two a couple times a week. Moderate drinking, nothing heavy. It loosens inhibitions and allows me to approach women easier, and be more social.

But off topic: does anyone know what neurotransmitter(s) beer effects to give it it's feel good effect? Serotonin? Dopamine? GABA? etc. Something different? Or all combined?

I've had depressive symptoms for the last little while, but feel good on beer. If I knew i could tailor a supplement regimen boosting those neurotransmitters.

[Shannon Vyff]

lucid there is also evidence that one drink a day is harmful, but here read over this: http://www.benbest.c...th/alcohol.html

[Ghostrider]

lucid there is also evidence that one drink a day is harmful, but here read over this: http://www.benbest.c...th/alcohol.html

And any minute now DukeNukem will show up...

[niner]

And any minute now DukeNukem will show up...

Carrying a really big weapon.

Split your intake during the day instead of drinking all at once if you can't resist it.

Doesn't this defeat the purpose?

Edited by niner, 21 February 2009 - 04:42 AM.

[yoyo]

I like to have a beer or two a couple times a week. Moderate drinking, nothing heavy. It loosens inhibitions and allows me to approach women easier, and be more social.

But off topic: does anyone know what neurotransmitter(s) beer effects to give it it's feel good effect? Serotonin? Dopamine? GABA? etc. Something different? Or all combined?

I've had depressive symptoms for the last little while, but feel good on beer. If I knew i could tailor a supplement regimen boosting those neurotransmitters.

just like those who drink it, ETOH is quite promiscuous....
as for your problem, i can't think of a good answer. if it were anxiety i might have some better suggestions...how many drinks do you notice where it really kicks in?

on most scales, moderate drinking is health promoting...even binging is rather benign, if irregular and with proper supplementation/damage control. tho there are better drugs, like ganja

[j03]

And any minute now DukeNukem will show up...

Carrying a really big weapon.

Split your intake during the day instead of drinking all at once if you can't resist it.

Doesn't this defeat the purpose?

By ETOH do you mean ethanol?

Half a beer and I start to notice a boost. It's at the point of not getting drunk, but slightly buzzed - but with all rational and cognitive abilities. I could be depressed before, but then start to feel good.

According to this: http://thebrain.mcgi...par_alcool.html It effects GABA, serotonin and other transmitters. L-Theanine is a GABA booster is it not?

[aikikai]

I drink some few glasses of red wine a week, maybe 1-3 glasses. Yes, there is not much resveratrol in red wine, but I believe that other ingredients in the red wine in conjunction with resveratrol, enhances the positive effects.
Alcohol is anti-inflammatory and is a blood thinner.

Edited by aikikai, 21 February 2009 - 07:23 AM.

[Johan]

I like to have a glass of wine or Armagnac once in a while (maybe a few times per week). I never drink to (or past) the point where I notice any effects, though. If I drink, it's because I think it tastes good, and because of the possible above-mentioned benefits of light/moderate consumption.

[AgeDefier]

Based on the scientific and anecdotal evidence I've seen, a couple drinks per day is fine, unless you have some particular condition which makes you hypersensitive to alcohol, or a pre-existing serious health problem.

Edited by AgeDefier, 21 February 2009 - 10:06 AM.

[Johan]

I had nothing better to do on a Saturday morning, so I did some research into the chemical properties of various liquors, particularly brandy, and found that all drinks may not be equal. (All this can be found at PubMed or Wikipedia, so it's nothing fancy.)

Distilled grape beverages like Cognac and Armagnac might have a greater polyphenol content than other liquors, e.g. vodka. I've found a few studies on this. One study compared the effects of Armagnac and vodka on platelet aggregation in healthy individuals, and found a greater inhibition of aggregation by Armagnac than by vodka [1]. Another study analyzed the antiradical properties of commercial Cognac, and found nonflavonoid phenols to be mainly responsible for its antiradical effects [2]. Interestingly, ellagitannins (imposed by aging in oak barrels, mainly during the first year of aging) were found to have the most significant effect. This could mean that longer aging in oak barrels leads to greater polyphenol content.

I wonder if, and how, the distillation process affects polyphenol levels? If it does, there might be a difference in the polyphenol contents of Armagnac and Cognac, since Cognac is doubly distilled, while Armagnac is traditionally only distilled once. Also, the variety of oak that the barrels are made of could have an effect on ellagitannin levels. Again, there is a difference between Armagnac and Cognac: Armagnac is traditionally aged in barrels made from the local black oak, while Cognac barrels are made from regular oak shipped from all over Europe.

[1] Umar A, Depont F, Jacquet A, Lignot S, Segur MC, Boisseau M, Bégaud B, Moore N. Effects of armagnac or vodka on platelet aggregation in healthy volunteers: a randomized controlled clinical trial. Thromb Res. 2005; 115 (1-2): 31-7. PMID: 15567450.

[2] Da Porto C, Callgaris S, Celotti E, Nicoli MC. Antiradical properties of commercial cognacs assessed by the DPPH(.) test. J Agric Food Chem. 2000 Sep; 48 (9): 4241-5. PMID: 10995344.

[lucid]

lucid there is also evidence that one drink a day is harmful, but here read over this: http://www.benbest.c...th/alcohol.html

Hmm. I have read a good bit of his critique of various studies, it seems that he has a pretty strong bias against alcohol. The real substance of his argument seems to be discussed in the article: http://www3.intersci...194652/abstract
In his article Ben Best claims in regards to the above study: "Unlike many previous studies which have a single category for non-drinkers, this study carefully distinguished between former drinkers and long-term abstainers. Using this distinction, the reputed reduced mortality risk for light drinkers over long-term abstainers was disproven for both men and women. "
However the above study makes no such claim. The study did find: "Characteristics of two groups of abstainers, other than their non-use of alcohol, may confound the associations found between drinking and mortality risk." It did not show that those who were long term abstainers had decreased or equivalent risk compared to light drinkers.

Mice studies also show causation (though not in humans of course):

Dose-Specific Effects of Alcohol on the Lifespan of Mice and the Possible Relevance to Man

To determine the effects on lifespan of daily consumption of alcohol throughout adulthood, three groups of 100 male mice each (strain C57BL/J0J)-housed one to a cage-were given 3.5%, 7.5% and J2% v/v alcohol in distilled water as the only source of drinking fluid. On the basis of relative metabolic capacity, the resulting consumption levels could be considered comparable to a range in man from a moderate to an alcoholic intake. Two control groups of 100 mice each-one group singly housed and the other housed five to a cage-received distilled water ad libitum. There was no difference between the survival curves of the low alcohol and water-drinking singly housed controls. The medium alcohol mice had the longest mean lifespan of the five groups and the high alcohol mice had the shortest. There were no clear alcohol-related group differences in post mortem histology, although the early deaths in the high alcohol group showed evidence of a high rate of liver abnormality. The applicability of the findings to man is discussed.

Unfortunately, I don't really have the time to rigorously test both sides of the argument. Perhaps someone can link to a nice debate. The way that I see it presently: when you have epidemiological studies more or less telling you one thing and controlled rodent studies telling you the same thing, one might as well roll with it; wikipedia also normally does a good job representing the present zeitgeist which presently seems to favor the use of EtOH. I personally would use it even if it was a net neutral or maybe even a mild negative. A couple of beers do me so right

Edited by lucid, 21 February 2009 - 11:38 AM.

[aikikai]

There are some studies that supports that beer can raise HDL-cholesterol.

[TheFountain]

This might be somewhat anecdotal, but I have noticed that whenever I consume wine anymore, in excess of about 2 4 oz glasses, my face looks kind of sunken in the following morning. I attribute this to the fact that the alcohol in the wine dehydrates the sub-dermal layer of the skin, depleting fluids and minerals, leading to this effect (similar to the effects of caffeine). Sometimes it takes an entire week for my face to look right again. I want to point out that this seems to be the case regardless of how much water I consume between glasses. Beware of alcohol. Besides, if you want to relax take some valerian root or smoke some pot occasionally. I would vote the latter healthier than alcohol consumption in terms of age related effects. This does not mean it is entirely safe, as pointed out elsewhere, but it is better than alcohol.

Edited by TheFountain, 21 February 2009 - 01:38 PM.

[resveratrol]

Besides, if you want to relax take some valerian root or smoke some pot occasionally. I would vote the latter healthier than alcohol consumption in terms of age related effects. This does not mean it is entirely safe, as pointed out elsewhere, but it is better than alcohol.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Anyone who would seriously suggest that smoking marijuana is somehow "healthier" compared to something else needs to get their head checked.

These forums are for discussing techniques for life extension, not for justifying toxic drug habits.

Edited by resveratrol, 21 February 2009 - 03:41 PM.

[TheFountain]

Besides, if you want to relax take some valerian root or smoke some pot occasionally. I would vote the latter healthier than alcohol consumption in terms of age related effects. This does not mean it is entirely safe, as pointed out elsewhere, but it is better than alcohol.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Anyone who would seriously suggest that smoking marijuana is somehow "healthier" compared to something else needs to get their head checked.

These forums are for discussing techniques for life extension, not for justifying toxic drug habits.

You're pushing your conception of strict morale on other's. By no means am I suggesting people smoke marijuana every day. What I am saying is the risk of smoking marijuana is not as great as the risk of alcohol consumption, and statistics bear this out. Of course more double blind studies are needed, but the point is people are already discussing 'justifying toxic habits' whenever they speak of any form of alcohol consumption. It is okay because it is legal?

[j03]

Besides, if you want to relax take some valerian root or smoke some pot occasionally. I would vote the latter healthier than alcohol consumption in terms of age related effects. This does not mean it is entirely safe, as pointed out elsewhere, but it is better than alcohol.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Anyone who would seriously suggest that smoking marijuana is somehow "healthier" compared to something else needs to get their head checked.

These forums are for discussing techniques for life extension, not for justifying toxic drug habits.

You're pushing your conception of strict morale on other's. By no means am I suggesting people smoke marijuana every day. What I am saying is the risk of smoking marijuana is not as great as the risk of alcohol consumption, and statistics bear this out. Of course more double blind studies are needed, but the point is people are already discussing 'justifying toxic habits' whenever they speak of any form of alcohol consumption. It is okay because it is legal?

I know Marijuana is safer than drinking, and I know a few people that smoke moderately it for it's positive life extension benefits (easing of stress, etc.) They aromatizes the marijuana as to not inhale too much smoke. I would do that instead, however beer makes me more sociable, and that's a positive for a natural introvert. So I choose that, even with any toxic effects, as otherwise my social life would be dull.

But I find most people correlate smoking marijuana with the stereotypical pot-head stoner types, and automatically think it's low life, and almost a scourge; and if you look at it that way, you can see why. You got to remind people of moderate users that are productive members of society, rather than abusers that most likely had problems before they found the drug, before perceptions change.

The same thing applies with steroids and HGH - it's not as bad for you as portrayed, and so many aging people could benefit from them, but people automatically think of athletes and it's synonymous with cheating. I think that's why the two will never be legal.

[DukeNukem]

And any minute now DukeNukem will show up...

Well, I don't have a strong belief on this because I think the jury is still out. There seems to be a lot of evidence that a few ounces a day can relieve stress and be a net-positive. Maybe this is only true for high-stress people, and for low-stress people it's still a net-negative.

I rarely drink at all, maybe 5-10 glasses of red wine a year, and 5 bottles of beer a year. Have been like this all my life. Never been drunk or even close to it.

I recommend very moderate drinking for those who want to, but again, I don't know if zero drinking is a sure-fire healthier way to go. I've read to much that appears to lean in conflicting directions.

[kismet]

You're pushing your conception of strict morale on other's.

As soon as I hear the word "morale" I have to step in. Health (and life extension) is not moralistic, suggesting otherwise is almost insulting. Please use some other term as it is obviously incorrect (I don't have a clue what you wanted to say, but this is a health discussion - we don't deal with morals!)

By no means am I suggesting people smoke marijuana every day. What I am saying is the risk of smoking marijuana is not as great as the risk of alcohol consumption, and statistics bear this out.

That's an interesting assumption. Some of the studies showed moderate alcohol consumption to be even healthier than abstaining. Is there any such data for marijuana? If the answer is "yes", I'd be glad to see it.

I know Marijuana is safer than drinking, and I know a few people that smoke moderately it for it's positive life extension benefits (easing of stress, etc.) They aromatizes the marijuana as to not inhale too much smoke. I would do that instead, however beer makes me more sociable, and that's a positive for a natural introvert. So I choose that, even with any toxic effects, as otherwise my social life would be dull.

You too seem to know something I don't know. So please share. If I remember correctly in the last marijuana thread the pro side of marijuana was only represented by some mechanistical/in vitro studies. 

But I find most people correlate smoking marijuana with the stereotypical pot-head stoner types, and automatically think it's low life, and almost a scourge; and if you look at it that way, you can see why. You got to remind people of moderate users that are productive members of society, rather than abusers that most likely had problems before they found the drug, before perceptions change.

Or maybe the intelligent people on imminst just correlate it with the fact of lung cancer and such? Once again I don't think anyone involved morals, anyone but you.

Edited by kismet, 21 February 2009 - 11:04 PM.

[j03]

You're pushing your conception of strict morale on other's.

As soon as I hear the word "morale" I have to step in. Health (and life extension) is not moralistic, suggesting otherwise is almost insulting. Please use some other term as it is obviously incorrect (I don't have a clue what you wanted to say, but this is a health discussion - we don't deal with morals!)

By no means am I suggesting people smoke marijuana every day. What I am saying is the risk of smoking marijuana is not as great as the risk of alcohol consumption, and statistics bear this out.

That's an interesting assumption. Some of the studies showed moderate alcohol consumption to be even healthier than abstaining. Is there any such data for marijuana? If the answer is "yes", I'd be glad to see it.

I know Marijuana is safer than drinking, and I know a few people that smoke moderately it for it's positive life extension benefits (easing of stress, etc.) They aromatizes the marijuana as to not inhale too much smoke. I would do that instead, however beer makes me more sociable, and that's a positive for a natural introvert. So I choose that, even with any toxic effects, as otherwise my social life would be dull.

You too seem to know something I don't know. So please share. If I remember correctly in the last marijuana thread the pro side of marijuana was only represented by some mechanistical/in vitro studies.

But I find most people correlate smoking marijuana with the stereotypical pot-head stoner types, and automatically think it's low life, and almost a scourge; and if you look at it that way, you can see why. You got to remind people of moderate users that are productive members of society, rather than abusers that most likely had problems before they found the drug, before perceptions change.

Or maybe the intelligent people on imminst just correlate it with the fact of lung cancer and such? Once again I don't think anyone involved morals, anyone but you.

You're grossly misinformed.

It's the chemicals in cigarettes becoming radioactive in the body that is the primary cause of smoking related lung cancers.

Marijunna can paralyze cilia, but not do the same. If you aromatize it, you pretty much inhale less toxic smoke than what's in the air.

The obvious benefit for someone interested in life extension is a potent stress reliever...and I'm sure others more informed will add to this

But that's beside the point: Does anyone know what receptors beer stimulate to give it's feel good effects, and how to mimic that through supplementation? And how to offset the oxidation/other toxic effects on the body?

Edit:
http://en.wikipedia....edical_cannabis

Marijuanna slows aging of the brain: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=43212

Marijuanna slows the aging process: http://pr.cannazine....ng-process.html

Edited by j033, 22 February 2009 - 02:58 AM.

[yoyo]

not really, since it does all kinds of things, pretty much every well known neurotransmitter is affected

[bgwowk]

I know alcohol is oxidizing, and converts to estrogen (Or aromatases estrogen receptors?), etc.

No. The metabolism of alcohol goes

ethanol --> acetaldehyde --> acetic acid (vinegar) --> out the kidneys into urine

Acetaldehyde is a nasty chemical. It's always amazed me that moderate alcohol consumption appears to have some health benefits. What seems to be going on is some reduction of cardiovascular disease risk that must be weighed against the probable carcinogenicity of the acetaldehyde.

[Rienzo]

Moderate alcohol consumption has been linked to a number of health benefits, but red wine especially has been linked to increased longevity. In parts of southwestern France and Sardinia they regularly drink 2-3 glasses daily of procyanidin-rich wine (due to the grapes used and the maceration techniques). Roger Corder writes about it in the Red Wine Diet. Red wine drinkers tend to live longer and maintain lower body weights as well. Those same oligomeric procyanidins in red wine are also present in cocoa, which may be why the Kuna people of Panama (who drink five cups of raw cocoa a day) live long and healthy lives. OPC's have been linked to cardiovascular and skin health. Pynogenol and apples are also good sources, and specific procyanidins in apples are even being used to treat receding hair problems. For more on procyanidin health benefits and the content in various foods, see "3 Simple Ways to Dramatically Improve your Health and Diet."

I write a lot about health and creativity, and I think alcohol used moderately can be an aid to creativity -- particularly for incubation (when not actually working on a problem) and occasionally as a late night, low-dose stimulant. There is some scientific basis for the association between creativity and alcohol, and the anecdotal basis is considerable. See "How does Alcohol affect Creativity" for more information.

[nowayout]

Moderate alcohol consumption has been linked to a number of health benefits, but red wine especially has been linked to increased longevity. In parts of southwestern France and Sardinia they regularly drink 2-3 glasses daily of procyanidin-rich wine (due to the grapes used and the maceration techniques). Roger Corder writes about it in the Red Wine Diet. Red wine drinkers tend to live longer and maintain lower body weights as well.

You may well be right, but the "French paradox" is not a good argument to support the claim. Having lived in the area (actually just across the border in Northeastern Spain, where the lifestyle is similar), I can attest that the lifestyle is very different from that in the U.S., say, as far as stress levels, amounts of exercise people get in their daily activities, amount of sun exposure, incidence of obesity, quality of the diet, and quality of the actual food ingredients, are concerned. Just the exercise probably makes a much larger difference than the contribution, if any, of red wine.

The best way of justifying health benefits of red wine would be to quote controlled interventional studies.

Edited by andre, 22 February 2009 - 08:46 PM.

[frederickson]

Besides, if you want to relax take some valerian root or smoke some pot occasionally. I would vote the latter healthier than alcohol consumption in terms of age related effects. This does not mean it is entirely safe, as pointed out elsewhere, but it is better than alcohol.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

Anyone who would seriously suggest that smoking marijuana is somehow "healthier" compared to something else needs to get their head checked.

These forums are for discussing techniques for life extension, not for justifying toxic drug habits.

sorry, but i nominate this post "most ignorant of the year". i think you've watched reefer madness one too many times.

[nancyd]

On the news years ago they said a glass of wine everyday raises the cancer risk for women by 50%. I don't remember anything else about the study. Aside from that doesn't alcohol make the body too acidic, which creates an evironment that doesn't absorb vitamins/minerals well.

Edited by nancyd, 23 February 2009 - 05:22 AM.

[lucid]

That's an interesting assumption. Some of the studies showed moderate alcohol consumption to be even healthier than abstaining. Is there any such data for marijuana? If the answer is "yes", I'd be glad to see it.

Abusing alcohol or cigarettes can cause cancer. While abusing weed certainly isnt healthy, while marijuana contains many carcinogens, use does not increase cancer risk. The cause of this is the subject of ongoing cancer research.
Read http://en.wikipedia....cts_of_cannabis
Its a shame how this conversation digressed but w/e.

[frederickson]

more evidence that moderate alcohol consumption is deleterious to health

http://news.yahoo.co..._alcohol_cancer