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Should The Us Go To War With Iraq?
#331
Posted 28 February 2003 - 05:19 AM
Belief in democracy is never misplaced. I am not even going to argue this point because it will only irritate me and accomplish nothing.
Further, why are you chastizing me for Clinton policy? Preaching to the choir buddy.
#332
Posted 28 February 2003 - 06:00 AM
If you weren't full of self doubt then you wouldn't be afraid of the power of the Middle East. If you weren't so interwoven with a philosophy of guilt, you wouldn't be so reluctant to exercise the power that is legitimately ours to wield.
Why do you think I Self Doubt because I doubt you? Illogical.
Why is it self doubt to want a better solution to problems I have been studying all my life that a bunch of foolish Johnny Come Latelies now think they can solve by the most destructive means. Though I will grant you there is no innocent party here, no one that has really been negotiating honestly, and that includes US and Israel.
I am not afraid of the " Power of the Middle East", that is why I think we have time to do this deliberately instead of in a rush there. In fact I think a deliberate action has significantly greater odds of a succesful outcome.
I am not afraid to use power, I am saying that force is not the best expression of that power, and misapplied force is counter productive. I would have been Walking the Walk and Talking the Talk about Stabilizing & Democratizing the region a long time ago. Starting with pressuring our allies that were profiting from our blatently culpable self indulgent ignorance.
All the Democratic systems historically that relied on representational rule and faith in their systems as a substitutute for participatory responsibility failed and we are at risk too.
Faith is counter productive to the functions of a Democracy.
A Democracy requires constant vigilance at home not just abroad, constant questioning of authority and constant involvement by all its citizenry. We don't even have half the voting population involved in Presidential elections, and Local government is almost universally local special interests groups.
Perhaps you aren't paying attention, today Congress voted for a total ban on cloning, and the religious Right is going back into the Field against the Abortion Clinics now that the Supreme Court overruled the Distance injunction against them. BTW, I favor Legal Abortion but agree that was BAD LAW. But the nineties produced some of the very worst legislation this country has produced since the Mason Dixon Line.
Theocracy undermines Democracy and the supposed reason you think you can Democratize by force is that we aren't suceptible to the same concerns and potential excesses, well then don't prove me right.
#333
Posted 28 February 2003 - 09:15 AM
So you say you have different solutions, different priorities. This is all fine. How about we keep the debate focused on the reality of the situation, shall we? We have close to 200,000 troops in the Persian Gulf region---right now. What is your course of action based on this reality? Even if you disagree with the Administration's decision, wouldn't you admit that the costs of retreat are too great at this point?
Second, do you understand how conflicted I am in my beliefs? Do you think I do not realize that most of my fellow neo-hawks are crazy Christians with an archaic world view? Do you think it doesn't kill me to see a full ban on all cloning get steamed rolled through the House? The neo-conservative approach to foreign policy is what I believe to be correct. If I really didn't believe it whole heartedly I wouldn't expound it.
Like you, I have calculated the exponential effects that technological advancements will have on society. Not many people have the foresight to do this. Nanotechnology, come again? Immortality, what? You tell that to the average person and they look at you like you have two heads.
No, you will get no argument out of me that the world will not be as the neo-conservatives invision it. Eventual technological progress will take control of the whole kittenkaboodal and transform it in ways we can't even imagine.
But for now, the bull headedness of "my camp" is what is necessary to deal with the threats of the international arena. We need a strong response to hostile cultures and nation-states. Can brutal dictators like Saddam be permited to exist? Is it not our birth right to rid the world of these elements of anti-progress? Basically, do we not need an end to tyranny before history can be completed?
You know what my problem is with your approach Lazarus? That you are a one-worlder. I went back and read some of your posts on the topic. You believe that a true "United Nations" can form just like the United States formed from a coalition of states. "Not likely!" is my response. Over how many centuries are we talking? No, the United States is the true path to further progress, and to immortality.
What is wrong with the American system? Why can't the "Pax Americana", as you would call it, be the global governance of the 21st century. Why can't post history be the perpetuation of American history?
To me you are the consumate nay sayer. Granted, you are a well armed opponent with a comprehensive knowledge of historical events, but you still represent the opposite side of the spectrum. You lend credence to the arguments of my adversaries. There is nothing wrong with this, but can you understand why I get heated?
So I want to go gangbusters through the Middle East waving Old Glory and you want to have a more "hands off" approach. The likely outcome is neither. However, the Administration thinks like I do. You know this. So maybe we will wind up with a little more gangbusters and a little less "hands off". Either way, in five years Iraq will be a case study in democratization (at least this should be the hope of both of us).
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#334
Posted 28 February 2003 - 10:12 AM
Listen please, first of all we need to make decisions that work.
Do you know how Athens lost its fleet and lost the Peloponnesian War?
Through reckless military action, and one of the leaders of that fiasco was a student and close associate of Socrates, Alcibiades. If you think you are doing this just because we already have the troops there and you are afraid of looking stupid then beware of death instead.
The so-called Peace of Nicias began in 421 and lasted six years. It was a period in which diplomatic maneuvers gradually gave way to small-scale military operations as each city tried to win smaller states over to its side. The uncertain peace was finally shattered when, in 415, the Athenians launched a massive assault against Sicily. The next 11 years made up the war's second period of fighting.The decisive event was the catastrophe suffered by the Athenians in Sicily. Aided by a force of Spartans, Syracuse was able to break an Athenian blockade. Even after gaining reinforcements in 413, the Athenian army was defeated again. Soon afterward the navy was also beaten, and the Athenians were utterly destroyed as they tried to retreat.
Perhaps the most gifted Athenian of his generation, Alcibiades possessed great charm and brilliant political and military abilities but was absolutely unscrupulous. His advice, whether to Athens or Sparta, oligarchs or democrats, was dictated by selfish motives, and the Athenians could never trust him enough to take advantage of his talents. Moreover, the radical leader Cleon and his successors carried on a bitter feud with him, which at the critical period undermined Athenian confidence. Alcibiades could not practice his master's virtues, and his example of undisciplined and restless ambition strengthened the charge brought against Socrates in 399 of corrupting the youth of Athens.
In the end his duplicitous nature and politicking not only contributed to getting Athens to violate a favorable peace (of Nicias) that ended in tragedy for the Athenian State but he was one of the Counts of Corrupting the Mind of the Young" that was the charge brought against Socrates himself.
I have a very realistic dea of what I would do with all these forces in the Persian Gulf right now, I would begin to move a significant number quietly out of the theater and continue the belicose dialogue as if nothing were wrong. I would grumble and stomp and demonstrate our respect for the UN by not forcing multiple theaters of operation into being until we have sufficient consensus.
But I would start preparing a larger strategy then we have reason to believe they are addressing. I don't think we need to Wave Old Glory in other people's faces so long as she waves freely at home.
Don't blame me because of the message and stop trying to tar me with the brush of giving comfort to the enemy crap. If you are basing your analysis and strategy on erroneous data it is doomed.
What is wrong with the American system? Why can't the "Pax Americana", as you would call it, be the global governance of the 21st century. Why can't post history be the perpetuation of American history?
Very simply if this approach is tried then much of the rest of the world will unite against us and we will have failed to achieve the result you seek and what we consolidate power over won't be worth ruling over.
Governance means if we want to enfore the Rule of Law then we must demonstrate that we are RESPECTFULLY BOUND BY SUCH PRINCIPLE. We can't tell everyone to obey a treaty we openly demonstrate contempt for.
This is what is so wrong with many ideas you are putting forth. The United States is already acting like the "Bad Cop" and if we aren't careful then it will be US that is seen to be going "rogue".
The United American Earth isn't going to happen but if there is too much more push in this direction it will have the opposite effect of creating a United Earth against America. If we do this responsibly instead of unilaterally we might be able to get the Russian who have declared they will veto any new resolutions at the UN to back us both in Iraq later and Korea now.
The Chinese are certainly upset, this isn't over there anymore. Give them a chance to believe that we don't want a war now that is directed at disrupting their economy. Above all we need a Round Table Talk with the Chinese present, not even the "One On One" talks the Chinese have been trying to arrange.
Like I said before, there are a LOT of alternatives still, but to me saving face just isn't a good reason to kill people. It certainly isn't a very effective way of saving face either.
#335
Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:36 AM
The United States is already acting like the "Bad Cop" and if we aren't careful then it will be US that is seen to be going "rogue".
Lazarus Long,
How is the US acting like a "Bad Cop"?
Can you give some examples?
bob
#336
Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:39 AM
Russia Warns of Iraq War Resolution Veto (excerpts)
Russia Says It's Ready to Veto Iraq War Resolution at U.N. to Preserve 'International Stability'
The Associated Press
Russia is ready to veto a U.S.-British resolution in the U.N. Security Council authorizing use of force against Iraq if such a step is needed to preserve "international stability," Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov said Friday.
"Russia has the right to a veto in the U.N. Security Council and will use it if it is necessary in the interests of international stability," Ivanov said at a news conference in Beijing.
The foreign minister's comments came a day after China and Russia issued a joint declaration saying war with Iraq "can and should be avoided" and appealing for more time for U.N. weapons inspectors there.
#337
Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:42 AM
February 28, 2003
Inside the Ring
Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough
Notes from the Pentagon.
Iraqi soldiers defecting (excerpts)
Morale is low in the Iraqi army and many soldiers are preparing white flags of surrender, we are told by someone in northern Iraq who recently interviewed two defectors from Saddam Hussein's army.
One was a captain who defected from the 5th Mechanized Division of the 1st Corps, based near the northern city of Kirkuk. The captain told our informant that the heavy division was only 35 percent combat-effective. The captain said morale was so low that younger soldiers are speaking openly about surrendering — before the first shot has been fired.
A second soldier, a senior noncommissioned officer, defected from the same division's 34th Brigade, based south of the northern city of Mosul.
This soldier said that of the 28 tanks in his care, only six were working. The others were broken down or otherwise in need of repair.
#338
Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:46 AM
Billionaire Soros blasts Bush, calls on President to honor world opinion (excerpts)
Friday, February 28, 2003
By Len Boselovic, Post-Gazette Staff Writer
Billionaire capitalist George Soros, whose shrewd speculation conquered world markets, delivered a scathing denunciation of Bush administration policies yesterday, accusing the White House of shirking its responsibility as the world's only superpower.
In a speech before 500 at Carnegie Mellon University, Soros said the Bush administration had a "visceral aversion to international cooperation," which is why it is willing to ignore world opinion in its rush to wage war with Iraq.
"President Bush is pushing the wrong buttons when he says, 'Those who are not with us, are against us,' " Soros said. "This is an imperialist vision in which the U.S. leads and the rest of the world follows."
Soros characterized some members of the Bush administration, including Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Attorney General John Ashcroft, as having "an exaggerated view of their own righteousness."
Bush's willingness to exert U.S. military power existed prior to the Sept. 11 attacks, which only served to enforce that tendency, Soros said. His solution, Soros said, is for the Bush administration to live by the rules it seeks to impose on the rest of the world.
#339
Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:51 AM

George W. Bush's Monumental Vision
February 27, 2003
If you didn't see President Bush's speech at the American Enterprise Institute on Wednesday, don't fret. We have clips and analysis in the audio links below - and a link to the video. I love the content of this speech, because I'm universally optimistic. I don't buy all this doom and gloom about the war causing more terrorism, etc. It's absurd to say that democracy isn't for Muslims.
Do you want to be surrounded by a bunch of negative people who constantly say, "It can't be done," or by people who say, "It can be done," and who work to make it so? Bush spoke with vision when he said: "It is presumptuous and insulting to suggest that a whole region of the world, or the one-fifth of humanity that is Muslim, is somehow untouched by the most basic aspirations of life. Human cultures can be vastly different, yet the human heart desires the same good things everywhere on Earth."
No longer is the goal of this war "regime change" or disarmament. For the first time, the president said that we're going to close the Islamic "freedom gap." This belief and faith in humanity comes from Mr. Bush's faith in God - at a time when the EU's biggest battle over a new constitution is whether or not to mention the Almighty. You can't keep freedom bottled up, or drip it out as the USSR tried to do. Remember, Reagan brought them down with his vision in the face of those who said freedom wasn't for Russians.
Today, Bush knows the Saudi royal family-types are falling apart, which is why the House of Saud wants us out so they can make the changes without appearing reactionary. But if you're going to transform that region because democracies don't use WMDs and terrorist tactics, why have we been messing with the United Nations? Why have we even reduced the standard for victory in a UN vote?
"We wanted to go to help out Tony Blair, Rush." Is that why? Personally, I keep coming back to Colin Powell's faith in the world body - a world body which, France and Germany in particular, stabbed the SecState in the back. Again: we don't go anywhere to conquer or for oil. (There is no "empire," as Pat Buchanan charged recently.) We are not rebuilding a nation here because we want to occupy it forever, or because we want oil. This war has always been about giving freedom to 23 million Iraqis and protecting our own security - nothing but. Now, it's official.
Edited by bobdrake12, 28 February 2003 - 11:53 AM.
#340
Posted 28 February 2003 - 03:09 PM
I have a very realistic dea of what I would do with all these forces in the Persian Gulf right now, I would begin to move a significant number quietly out of the theater and continue the belicose dialogue as if nothing were wrong. I would grumble and stomp and demonstrate our respect for the UN by not forcing multiple theaters of operation into being until we have sufficient consensus.
Pull out? You mean retreat don't you? Respect for the UN? Sufficient consensus? First, I have no respect for the UN. The UN is your government, not mine. How can you respect an institution that allows Iraq to head its disarmorment commission? Second, establishing international consensus on anything, let alone a major conflict in a stategically vital region of the world, is exceeding difficult. You are just looking for excuses for inaction.
Very simply if this approach is tried then much of the rest of the world will unite against us and we will have failed to achieve the result you seek and what we consolidate power over won't be worth ruling over.
The rest of the world is going to unite against us over Saddam? Please
The United States is already acting like the "Bad Cop" and if we aren't careful then it will be US that is seen to be going "rogue".
Let me get this straight. We are acting like the bad cop because we want to take out a brutal dictator? The Iraqi people are going to be celebrating in the streets when we topple this bum.
The United American Earth isn't going to happen but if there is too much more push in this direction it will have the opposite effect of creating a United Earth against America. If we do this responsibly instead of unilaterally we might be able to get the Russian who have declared they will veto any new resolutions at the UN to back us both in Iraq later and Korea now.
I believe that a United American Earth can and will happen. Second, the world isn't going to unite against us. You keep saying that but you have absolutely no facts to back you up. You are simply stating your beliefs. A more realistic pessimistic projection would be a compromised UN with multiple coalitions that govern the world.
Like I said before, there are a LOT of alternatives still, but to me saving face just isn't a good reason to kill people. It certainly isn't a very effective way of saving face either.
I just wanted to see if your position had changed at all because of the troop build up. I guess if you believe that war in Iraq is absolutely the wrong decision then retreat wouldn't be such a bad idea.
#341
Posted 28 February 2003 - 03:38 PM
Robert Kagan
The Washington Post
September 13, 2002
If you're the kind of person who worries about American unilateralism, here's what should really keep you up at night: Even most American multilateralists are unilateralists at the core.
Consider what passes these days for a "multilateralist" view on Iraq: Before taking any action against Iraq, the United States should seek the approval of the U.N. Security Council. Then, if the Security Council refuses, the United States can invade anyway. As Secretary of State Colin Powell said on Sunday, the Bush administration will bring the Iraq case to the United Nations, but that doesn't mean "we lose our option to do what we might think is appropriate to do." Or, as James Baker put it, "even if the administration fails in the Security Council, it is still free" to make its own decision.
Really? Many Europeans -- and Kofi Annan -- would disagree with that quintessentially American view. They have this idea that the U.N. Security Council is the only world body legally empowered to decide whether Iraq is to be invaded. They think that if powerful nations such as the United States go around deciding for themselves who will and who will not be invaded, then the world will collapse into a Hobbesian state of nature. As French President Jacques Chirac told the New York Times' Elaine Sciolino recently, "a few principles and a little order are needed to run the affairs of the world. . . . I can't say both 'the Security Council must decide' and then, once it has decided, 'I'll do what I want.' " But that's the funny thing about American "multilateralists": Powell and Baker and many others have no trouble saying exactly that.
Clearly multilateralism has different meanings on either side of the Atlantic. Most Europeans believe in what might be called principled multilateralism. In this view, gaining U.N. Security Council approval is not a means to an end but an end in itself, the sine qua non for establishing an international legal order. Even if the United States were absolutely right about Iraq, even if the dangers were exactly as the Bush administration presents them, Europeans believe the United States would be wrong to invade without formal approval. If the Security Council says no, the answer is no.
Not many Americans would agree. Most Americans are not principled multilateralists. They are instrumental multilateralists. Yes, they want to win international support. They like allies, and they like approval for their actions. But the core of the American multilateralist argument is pragmatic. As Baker puts it, "the costs will be much greater, as will the political risks, both domestic and international, if we end up going it alone." This would seem unarguable. But Baker's multilateralism is a cost-benefit analysis, not a principled commitment to multilateral action as the cornerstone of world order.
The press refers to Baker and Powell as foreign policy "realists." But remember, realists in the tradition of Hans Morgenthau and George Kennan don't actually believe in the United Nations. And, in fact, very few American multilateralists are as committed as their European friends to building an international legal order around the United Nations. For most Americans, getting a few important allies on board is multilateralism. When the Clinton administration fought Slobodan Milosevic without Security Council authorization, many European governments considered that a troubling precedent. But Richard Holbrooke, Madeleine Albright and their colleagues thought it a very fine precedent indeed. To most American multilateralists the U.N. Security Council is not the final authority. It's like a blue-ribbon commission. If it makes the right recommendation, it strengthens your case. If not, you can always ignore it.
In fact, despite what many believe, there really isn't a debate between multilateralists and unilateralists in the United States today. Just as there are few principled multilateralists, there are few genuine unilateralists. Few inside or outside the Bush administration truly consider it preferable for the United States to go it alone in the world. Most would rather have allies. They just don't want the United States prevented from acting alone if the allies refuse to come along.
So the real debate in the United States is about style and tactics. Some of the administration's critics, such as Holbrooke and Joseph Nye, say the United States should build goodwill by working hard for Security Council support. When that fails, the United States can go ahead and do what it wants, but the good-faith effort to accommodate allied concerns will have won the United States Brownie points. Some Bush administration strategists believe, on the contrary, that the best way to bring the allies along is by making clear that the United States will go it alone if necessary. They figure that key allies such as Britain and France won't want to be left behind, looking helpless and irrelevant.
The two views aren't necessarily contradictory. Fear of the Bush administration's "going it alone" has already begun forcing important Europeans such as Chirac to accommodate themselves to an American-created reality on Iraq. Now Bush's willingness to talk about the United Nations' role may ease the path for Chirac, Tony Blair and others to join in an eventual military action, even if, at the end of the day, there is no explicit U.N. authorization. It's the unilateralist iron fist inside the multilateralist velvet glove.
This blend of unilateralism and multilateralism reflects a broad and deep American consensus. Americans prefer to act with the sanction and support of other countries if they can. But they're strong enough to act alone if they must. That combination may prove to be the winning formula in Europe and elsewhere. Maybe it won't be quite the principled multilateralism Europeans and Kofi Annan prefer. In an age of American hegemony, it will be multilateralism, American style.
#342
Posted 28 February 2003 - 04:13 PM
QUOTE
The United States is already acting like the "Bad Cop" and if we aren't careful then it will be US that is seen to be going "rogue". by LL
Bob asks; Lazarus Long,
How is the US acting like a "Bad Cop"?
Can you give some examples?
The simplest and most glaringly obvious example is our new found disdain for Treaties and a Global System of Juris Prudence (the World Court).
We are claiming to be upholding law and treaty that we also claim to be above (exempt from) on the basis our sheer power and self proclaimed "Moral Authority".
#343
Posted 28 February 2003 - 04:40 PM
Pull out? You mean retreat don't you? Respect for the UN? Sufficient consensus? First, I have no respect for the UN. The UN is your government, not mine. How can you respect an institution that allows Iraq to head its disarmorment commission? Second, establishing international consensus on anything, let alone a major conflict in a stategically vital region of the world, is exceeding difficult. You are just looking for excuses for inaction.
No I don't mean retreat, are you even capable of envisioning how to duck?
Or are you such a Goliath that you would willing expose your vulnerabilities for anyone to take a good shot at?
I said continue to rant and rave about going into Iraq while we don't, but begin to quietly (without full media coverage) pull the greatest slight of hand in history and move almost half the forces to different, more strategically appropriate locations and seek a dawning consensus that we must engage the principle states of that region in our strategy if they demonstrate a willingness to encourage the standdown.
Your lack of respect for the institution of the UN is noted and it is also noted by the vast majority of the world that is beginning to openly turn hostile to US because of this professed contempt.
The UN is NOT a Global Government, and it is not mine anymore than yours.
What I have argued all along is that it is within this Institution that the debate about the creation of a World State must begin. It is our Modern World's defacto Continental Congress and this is the very purpose behind the forces that moved to create this Institution for almost two centuries.
It is this body that possesses the "Recognized Moral Authority" around the rest of the world for a constructive debate on the specifics and character of this Next Age Institution to take place, not Unilaterally within just our Congress or the backrooms of NATO Headquarters.
If we fail to establish a consensus then we will have failed a priori. I am not interested in inaction, I am interested in constructive action, strategic objectives that hold out both a serious chance of a successful outcome and ones which, whose outcome are managable in a positive sense.
I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis as a child in Puerto Rico under lock down because the Island was a Prime Target because of its SAC Base. I later studied the events in great detail and I see us moving too rapidly and precipitously to a level of brinkmanship that makes those events pall by comparison.
But in this case we aren't even facing eye to eye with the real threat. We are escalating into a Nuclear Posture ostensibly to stop global terrorism and Nuclear Proliferation, and this isn't a rational response. We are using hammers to fix computers.
As an additional element to add to the mix we are showing open disdain for many of the other interests, and "Due Process" the way the "Bad Cop" is willing to kill the hostage to get the perk, or "fabricate evidence" in order to get a conviction.
#344
Posted 28 February 2003 - 06:04 PM
LL/kxs
Annan Says March 10 Is Last Date for Cyprus Deal
2 hours, 31 minutes ago
http://story.news.ya...wl_nm/cyprus_dc
By Michele Kambas
NICOSIA (Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan warned Greek and Turkish Cypriot leaders on Friday they must agree a peace deal to reunite the island or else his peace efforts would end.
Annan said the two sides had accepted his call to meet him in The Hague on March 10 to tell him whether they were prepared to submit a draft U.N.-backed plan to public referendum.
"If one party or the other says no (on March 10) there is no doubt that this is the end of road," Annan told reporters as he boarded a plane to head back to New York.
If both communities back it in separate votes planned for March 30, the peace deal would allow a united Cyprus, instead of just the larger Greek Cypriot part, to sign an accession treaty to join the European Union on April 16.
It would also boost Turkey's hopes of joining the European Union further down the road as well as remove a major irritant in relations with NATO ally Greece.
Annan, who since last Sunday has taken time out from the Iraq crisis to shuttle between the main players, had hoped to wrap up a deal on Friday.
But Turkish Cypriot leader Rauf Denktash and newly elected Greek Cypriot leader Tassos Papadopoulos dug in their heels over details of a complex power-sharing plan which would establish a new state and set off population and territory exchanges.
"We put lots of efforts in it (the plan) and I'm not sure this opportunity will come again soon. If it ever comes again," Annan told reporters at Larnaca airport before boarding a plane, adding it would be "a sad day for this island" if the plan failed.
Asked what would happen if one or both sides refused to endorse the U.N. peace blueprint, he said: "I think we should all consider the downside very carefully."
NEW DATE KEEPS PLAN ALIVE
Greek government spokesman Christos Protopapas said the new timeframe outlined by Annan was enough for a united Cyprus to take part in the EU signing ceremony in Athens in April. Greece is the current president of the bloc.
"If a referendum takes place and if the vote is positive, there is enough time to have the accession of the whole Cyprus, as a united entity, to the EU," he told reporters in Athens.
Annan came up with the idea of persuading the leaders simply to agree to submit the plan to referendum as a way of keeping it alive and giving the Cypriot leaders some relief from responsibility if the deal goes wrong in its implementation.
"There were two options before, a yes or a no. Now the leaders have been presented with a third, which is, if they fail to agree, they could pass the buck and let the people decide," a source close to the negotiations said.
"If everything goes wrong then at least the leaders can walk away from the process unaffected because it was in the public's hands."
Tens of thousands of Turkish Cypriots demonstrated this week calling for Denktash to either sign the deal or step down from leading Cyprus's northern enclave, only recognized diplomatically by Turkey.
But there is concern among Greek Cypriots that they may give away too much under the deal.
CHANGES STILL WANTED
The eastern Mediterranean island has been divided since a Turkish invasion of the north in 1974, triggered by a brief Greek-Cypriot coup engineered by the military then ruling Greece.
Greek and Turkish Cypriots live in separate communities with U.N. troops manning a "green line" between them. About two-thirds of Cyprus's 750,000 population are Greek Cypriots.
Denktash said negotiations would go on up until March 10, but Annan had insisted there could only be small changes to the draft plan ahead of the Hague meeting.
"I told the Secretary-General that there are changes to the plan that I want, to which he (answered) that it can only be touched up, that there is a very delicate balance, and this balance cannot be broken," Denktash told reporters.
The veteran Turkish Cypriot leader is under intense pressure to sign a deal his people believe would dramatically improve their standard of living, far behind that of Greek Cypriots.
Another article on the subject:
http://famulus.msnbc...vts=22820030920
#345
Posted 28 February 2003 - 07:04 PM
All Warriors Return Home With The Blood Of Innocents Along With Thier Enemy On Thier Face, So That The Blood Of Thier Family Is Not Spilled. But They Never Return Without Tears.
~Lazarus A. Epicurus~
#346
Posted 28 February 2003 - 09:15 PM
Administration fends off demands for war estimates (excerpts)
Friday, February 28, 2003 Posted: 10:27 AM EST (1527 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The number of U.S. troops that would be required to administer Iraq after a U.S.-led military campaign is "not knowable" because of the large number of variables in how a conflict might unfold, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said Thursday.
He also said it "makes no sense to try" to come up with cost estimates for a war in Iraq because the variables "create a range that simply isn't useful."
"We have no idea how long the war will last. We don't know to what extent there may or may not be weapons of mass destruction used," Rumsfeld said at a Pentagon news conference. "We don't have any idea whether or not there would be ethnic strife. We don't know exactly how long it would take to find weapons of mass destruction and destroy them."
#347
Posted 28 February 2003 - 09:17 PM
Career diplomat resigns over Iraq policy (excerpts)
Spokesman: 'These things happen'
Thursday, February 27, 2003 Posted: 6:36 PM EST (2336 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The State Department expressed regret Thursday over the decision of a veteran career diplomat to resign because of President Bush's "fervent pursuit of war with Iraq."
J. Brady Kiesling, political officer at the U.S. embassy in Athens, said in a letter to Secretary of State Colin Powell that Bush's policies are "driving us to squander the international legitimacy that has been America's most potent weapon" for the past century.
Edited by bobdrake12, 28 February 2003 - 09:19 PM.
#348
Posted 28 February 2003 - 09:23 PM
Destroying Missiles Won't Be Enough, U.S. Says (excerpts)
Fri February 28, 2003 01:03 PM ET
By Steve Holland
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States insisted on Friday that if Iraq obeys U.N. orders to destroy its ballistic missiles, the move will still leave Baghdad far short of U.N. demands and not stop the march toward a possible war.
President Bush "views this as continued trickery, continued deception. I think it's fair to say that the Iraqi regime is a deception wrapped in a lie inside a fraud," said White House spokesman Ari Fleischer.
Iraq said it would obey U.N. orders to destroy its al-Samoud 2 ballistic missiles whose 93 mile range exceeds the U.N. limit set in 1991.
The U.S. reaction was that the missiles represented only the tip of the iceberg and that Baghdad was trying to mask the fact that it has mass stores of weapons of mass destruction it is required to disarm under U.N. resolution 1441.
"If we go to war, we are going to go to war because Iraq continues to have 26,000 liters of anthrax, 38,000 liters of botulin, 1.5 tons of nerve agent, 6,500 aerial chemical bombs," Fleischer said, citing previous U.N. reports.
#349
Posted 28 February 2003 - 11:32 PM
U.S. arguments don’t meet church’s criteria for ‘just war’
By Stephen Weeke
NBC NEWS
VATICAN CITY, Feb. 27 — In the midst of the fiery debate over war with Iraq, the rhetoric in the past few weeks has shifted from the pragmatic goal of taking Saddam’s weapons away, to an ethical “high ground,” whether the West has a moral obligation to rid the Middle East and the world of this evil tyrant.
It’s a debate on which the Roman Catholic Church has been unyielding, saying that the U.S. arguments for regime change are unacceptable.
THE DEBATE over whether this war is right or wrong has put the spotlight on the Catholic doctrine known as “Just War,” especially with the recent procession of leaders on both sides of the issue to the Vatican in search of the pope’s counsel and influence.
Archbishop Jean-Louis Tauran, the secretary of state for relations with states — the Vatican’s equivalent of U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell — has said a unilateral attack on Iraq by the United States and its allies would be “a crime against peace.”
On Thursday, he reinforced the point by officially briefing all the ambassadors to the Vatican on the Holy See’s position.
JUST OR NOT?
So what exactly is “Just War,” and why does Pope John Paul say this war with Iraq is not “just” and needs to be stopped at all costs?
The Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine explains how St. Augustine — one of the greatest minds in the history of Christianity — introduced the theory of “Just War” 1,500 years ago when barbarians were invading the Roman Empire.
The Emperor Constantine had made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire more than a century before.
Now St. Augustine was providing Christians with the moral justification to kill to defend themselves from being slaughtered. He did so with five criteria still used today by the Catholic Church:
1. Just cause: Protection of the innocent from unjust aggression.
2. Common good authority: The use of force must be ordered by a competent and lawful authority with responsibility for the common good.
3. Last resort: All peaceful means to resolve the conflict must be exhausted first.
4. “Just” motivation: The intent of the war must be to restore order and justice — not to satisfy hatred and vengeance.
5. Proportional benefits and probable success: The expected benefits have to be proportional to human lives lost and damage caused to achieve it, and there has to be a good chance of winning.
Full Text & Links
#350
Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:07 AM
Friday, February 28, 2003
10 obvious, but overlooked, questions on Iraq
President Bush has given several nationally televised speeches on Iraq, held roundtables with dozens of influential reporters, and even addressed the U.N. General Assembly before a world audience.
So why do Americans still have so many questions about this war?
Perhaps because the most obvious questions are also the most easily overlooked.
Yet since invading and occupying Iraq could claim thousands of American lives and even spark a wider war in the Middle East, Bush has a solemn obligation to fully explain his reasons for war.
In that spirit, here is a list of 10 simple questions about his Iraq policy.
(1) Isn't it possible that invading Iraq will cause more terrorism than it prevents?
The al-Qaeda network has explicitly threatened to murder innocent Americans in retaliation for a U.S. raid on Iraq. So why hasn't Mr. Bush addressed this possibility?
Even General Wesley Clark, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander of Europe, says: "Attacking Iraq will detract from our primary mission against al-Qaeda, supercharge anti-American sentiment in the Arab street and boost al-Qaeda's recruiting." Is Gen. Clark wrong?
(2) If Saddam is really a threat to the Middle East, why do his neighbors seem to fear him less than the U.S. government does?
None of the countries bordering Iraq has been clamoring for the United States to protect them from Saddam. So how can Bush argue that Saddam poses a threat to a nation halfway around the globe?
(3) You point out that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction that "could" be turned over to terrorists. But couldn't the same be said of Pakistan, North Korea, and dozens of other nations? And do you intend to launch pre-emptive strikes against them as well?
Bombing Iraq because of what it "might" do would set a frightening precedent. Imagine the global chaos that would result if every nation followed Bush's example, and it's easy to understand how reckless a first-strike policy is.
(4) Won't attacking Iraq make Saddam more likely to launch a biological or chemical attack?
During the Gulf War, the Iraqi leader apparently decided that unleashing such devastating weapons was not in his self-interest. But this time Saddam knows he is targeted personally – which means he has nothing to lose. If Bush really wants to avoid such a catastrophe, he can prove it by keeping U.S. troops out of Iraq.
(5) Why do you maintain that Iraq poses a more immediate threat than North Korea?
North Korean leader Kim Jong-il admits that he has nuclear weapons capable of hitting U.S. targets, and brags that he can 'win' a nuclear war with the United States. Please explain why Americans should fear Iraq more than this belligerent, and apparently unstable, communist dictator.
(6) Why do you believe a U.S.-led regime change will do any more good in Iraq than it did in Panama, Haiti, or Bosnia?
Like previous presidents, the Bush administration promises to topple a tyrant and liberate the nation. But if the history of U.S. intervention is any guide, Bush will merely replace one dictator with another.
(7) You say Saddam has refused to comply with U.N. weapons inspectors. Does that mean that you intend to subject Americans to U.N. mandates in the future?
No one should be surprised if this notoriously anti-American agency decrees that it's our turn to submit to a weapons inspection, or demands that U.S. troops be sent into a bloody, pointless battle overseas.
Yet how could Mr. Bush refuse such requests without being denounced as a hypocrite? And how could he comply without betraying U.S. sovereignty?
(8) Considering that many of the September 11 hijackers were Saudi nationals – not Iraqis – why haven't you publicly accused the Saudi government of sponsoring terrorism?
Bush has struggled mightily to produce a link between Iraq and the 9/11 terrorists, while refusing to address allegations of Saudi connections to terrorism. The grieving families of the 9/11 victims have a right to know why.
(9) Why have you stopped mentioning the name of the one individual who has been most closely linked to the 9/11 attacks: Osama bin Laden?
Bush's interest in the world's most-wanted terrorist seems to have vanished mysteriously into the caves of Tora Bora. So it's understandable for Americans to wonder if invading Iraq is Bush's way of punishing Saddam Hussein for the crimes of bin Laden.
(10) Finally, Mr. President, if your Iraq policy is so successful, why are Americans more afraid than ever?
As the attack against Iraq draws near, the Homeland Security Department has raised the terrorist threat level to orange; started to educate the nation about how to cope with dirty bombs and chemical attacks; and warned panicky Americans to stockpile food, water and medical supplies.
If this policy is a success, how would we measure failure?
About the author: Geoffrey Neale, Austin, Texas, is national chair of the Washington, DC-based Libertarian Party.
Edited by bobdrake12, 01 March 2003 - 12:08 AM.
#351
Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:16 AM
February 27, 2003
MEMORANDUM TO: OPINION LEADERS
FROM: DANIEL McKIVERGAN, Deputy Director
SUBJECT: Blair, Chirac & Iraq
Media reports on yesterday's vote in the House of Commons on Prime Minister Blair's Iraq policy have made much of the defections within his own party over that policy. And, indeed, those defections do reflect a general skepticism among Labor's ranks. That said, it is also worth noting that the prime minister did win in overwhelming fashion, including 70% within his own party. And given the fact that his position on Iraq has serious implications for Great Britain as a nation, the support he did receive (393-199) is equally striking.
Also worth noting is how little media attention has been paid to the turmoil taking place within France's parliament. The International Herald Tribune reports ("Voices Raised in Chirac's Party Against Veto") today that "significant elements - perhaps more than half - of Jacques Chirac's presidential majority in the National Assembly are making clear they oppose France's eventual use of its veto in the Security Council to a block a new American-led resolution that would justify a strike at Iraq." Says one majority legislator, "We're not going to tear apart the UN and Europe to save a tyrant."
#352
Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:25 AM
Oliver North (back to story)
February 28, 2003
Irrelevance or impotence
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- For more than five months, President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair have tried vainly to drag the United Nations, kicking and screaming, back from the brink of irrelevance. Along the way, the assumption has been that others in the United Nations actually cared. Now, thanks to French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, we know better. They aren't concerned about the United Nations becoming irrelevant. What they want most is for the United States to appear impotent.
Undaunted by their growing estrangement from the American people (whom they lecture) and the recently liberated citizens of "new" Europe (whom they berate), Chirac and Schroeder last week dined at a Berlin restaurant aptly named "Final Appeal," where they broke bread and munched on pickled pork knuckles. Their objective was clear: Scheme up new ways to denigrate the unparalleled economic and military prowess of the United States. It apparently matters not a whit that in so doing they abandon the people of Iraq to tyranny and imperil the United Nations that they claim to support.
Chirac has opted to embrace that familiar French diplomatic contrivance: appeasement. "We want Iraq to disarm," the French potentate proclaimed in the finest tradition of Marshall Petain, "but we believe this disarmament must happen peacefully." Even by the fanciful-cum-farcical standards of his country's foreign policy, Chirac seems to be living on another planet. When was the last time an aggressive despot like Saddam Hussein "peacefully" disarmed? Time for a reality check, Jacques: Iraq does not play by Swiss diplomatic rules.
Never one to miss the opportunity to prove that accountability is always the enemy of empty promises, Chirac suggested that Iraq should be given a minimum of four or five more months to come clean. He then clarified his position, lest it be taken too seriously. "There is no deadline," he added. "Only the inspectors themselves can say when such a deadline is set and how."
This inane idea has been embraced by the German chancellor who has the hubris to propound his very own defeatist theory for European pacifism. "Deep in the consciousness, the collective consciousness, of the European people," Schroeder pontificated, "it has sunk in what war really means." Instead of making pompous existential pronouncements worthy of Bertolt Brecht, Schroeder could have held his own nation accountable for providing Saddam with the means to build an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. It is not the United States that invaded Kuwait, gassed Iranians and Kurds or took civilians hostages for use as "human shields."
Meanwhile, across the English Channel, Prime Minister Tony Blair offers a study in Churchillian political courage. While contending with a parliamentary revolt by Saddam appeasers within his own Labor Party, he does his best to shore up European support for the inevitable crackdown on Saddam. Responding to French demands for prolonged weapons inspections, Blair observed of the United Nations, "They are not a detective agency."
This may come as a surprise to chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix. A week after Saddam signed a new decree "outlawing" weapons of mass destruction, the Iraqis "discovered" documents proving that all weapons of mass destruction had been destroyed back in 1991! The Swedish lawyer professed to be elated: "Here are some elements that are positive." As he readies for the next update to the Security Council on March 7, it sounds like Blix is already breaking out the champagne (French, of course) to celebrate the demise of what little credibility the United Nations still has.
Saddam must be relishing a spectacle that he could not have instigated without the help of France and Germany. The United States and Great Britain appear marginalized. NATO is internally divided. Millions of Westerners are joining Neville Chamberlain appeasement clubs. And in a quest for higher ratings, network anchors continue their efforts to make Saddam appear credible. Last week, Dan Rather of CBS deadpanned the dictator about whether he really wanted to debate President George W. Bush on live TV. "I'm not joking," Saddam explained. "This is because of my respect for the American public opinion." And they call this "news"?
Despite all of this, to answer Yeats' famous question, the center continues to hold. The American-British-Spanish resolution will move forward in the Security Council because there is no moral alternative. With the exception of Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, and his domestic political partner ex-Gov. Howard Dean, D-Vt., Saddam has few defenders in the United States. Whether the world -- and some of our own citizens -- accept it or not, the United States has become the necessary superpower that is about to undertake a necessary war.
Because of two resolute leaders, George W. Bush and Tony Blair, irrelevance and impotence are not the only alternatives.
Oliver North is host of Common Sense Radio with Oliver North, a TownHall.com member group.
©2003 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
#353
Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:30 AM
how many good dectetives solved murder cases without slightly bending the rules, giving bribes to drug dealers for info, looking the other way when questionable but reliable sources broke the law. LAW, and even moral law sometimes has to be bent, or broken in order to reach a greater good, in the end you must ask yourself one thing. would oyu rather the us go to war and kill iraq and destroy the threat of them destroying to world, ...
Very Few is the actually answer to the common fallacy here. Death row is being emptied in many areas because better evidence gathering techniques are exposing this slip shod and incompetant police work.
Additionally OUR system of Juris Prudence requires an assumption of innocence that bothers many people when it is turned toward very unscrupulous advantage to expose the corrupt methods of these less than competant cops but when it does the results are disastrous and the guilty walk as in the case of a certain X-Football Player.
I say less than competant because often the REAL reason that these Cops do what they do is because they feel helpless to do it any other way. Well Freedom is a Rocky Road and we don't idly argue that "it is better to allow the guilty to go free then to punish unjustly the innocent."
All that said, this is the point of the Good & Bad Cop scenario; balance.
A Bad Cop alone is bad for everyone, causes riot, harms the innocent, and ultimately self destructs through self indulgent force that often has a blowback on not only the particular officer but leads to harm to associated institutions and individuals.
A Good and Bad Cop balanced can have all the alledged benefits you are claiming are possible, because together they are able to do what the other cannot quite alone.
The only reason we can even sit here and debate it with the exceptions of any veterans here, is because the media displays it. 400 years ago only warriors knew of war, the people did not, and the warriors knew how horrible it was, but because they were the ones fighting it, they were also the ones that saw its nessecity. you cannot logically, morrally judge a war,...
This is just false on both assumptions. For the entire history of war it was the "Silent Majority of the Masses" that has suffered the actual brunt of the conflict, rape was practiced on civilian's daughters and wives, pillage was against the property and homes of the folk that lived between warring factions, conscription was of any able bodied men and children that were available along the march, and the whoring, disease, and destitution that followed didn't necesarilly adversly effect the warriors living off the "spoils" but it did devastate the majority of people in whose name wars are often faught.
Have you ever asked why we have the Third Amendment?
"No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."
Have you ever read the full text of Article I?
The last paragraph states:
"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."
The inherent test of War and the limits for "Official Conduct" are spelled out precisely becasue of thousands of years of history of the abuse and real burden of war falling on the vast majority of less powerful individuals that are the more common victims of some people's ideas of justice.
Also the current conflict doesn't pass this Constitutional measure either.
We are indulging in mass hysteria and fear mongering and this will lead to Civil War or Fascism and this will mean we have lost as assuredly as if we fell on our own swords.
we may not have a moral right to go over there, invade thier conutry, dictate thier lifesytle, but if thats what it takes to save the lives of the rest of the planet, I would rather be the asshole and in my soul know I saved the world, then sit back and watch billion die because I was not willing to loose face.
And what if it doesn't save their lives, are you just going to say you are so sorry and go home? Of course there won't be many left to apologize to.
Again this isn't about saving face. It is about making the policy consistent with the goals.
The logic of this conflict is atrocious, it simple is trumping up a threat we think we can face and ignoring a real threat that is present and getting worse, exactly BECAUSE we are trying to make sure of protecting our "Face".
Bad Cops breed and thrive off Crime. They need it as a form of job security they depend on a corrupt system and are more a part of the problem then the cure, but Bad Cops (when balanced by a Good Cop) can achieve a broader level of coverage on the street, apply less predictable tactics that often result in less harm being done, and can obtain legal confession when a Bad Cop only is only forcing a false one.
We have a role to play but not alone. We are already the Bad Cop, but if our actions are to be effective and actually accomplish what are the claimed goals then we need a partner. A Good Cop that is clearly recognizable as such.
Alone we each have limitations that compromise our effectiveness but together...
Together we are unstoppable.
#354
Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:31 AM

Saddam Agrees To Destroy Al-Samouds
February 28, 2003
On February 20th, I told you what Saddam Hussein announced on February 28th: he "agrees in principle" to destroy his banned Al-Samoud missiles. I rolled you a clip of myself predicting this slight of hand. My evaluation stands that this is no more than a delaying tactic.
Let the French have their predictable appeasement orgasms. The truth? Just the other night, Saddam denied he even had these missiles when Dan Blather asked about them. This won't matter a hill of beans to the Bush administration. All this does is make people like Rather and the United Nations look like the buffoons they are. Rather told Larry King that the Bush White House "looked bad," when they asked for an opportunity to respond to Saddam's free SeeBS infomercial.
Dan, it's you that didn't look good. I hate to say it, but it's true. You're out there calling Saddam "charismatic," and saying that you can see why people in the region would be taken in by his charms. They hate him, Dan. The parallels to 1930s and World War II are surreal and eerie. We're almost looking at an almost exact replay of history. Remember the outrage, shame and feigned surprise when the truth of what Hitler had done at those concentration camps was known? The same thing is going to happen here in due course.
#355
Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:35 AM

"Too Expensive" to Stop Rape and Murder?
February 28, 2003
House Democrats lashed out at a top defense official on Thursday over the Bush administration's "refusal" to provide cost estimates of a war against Iraq. One estimate I've seem is $320 per person in America - not bad to stop genocide.
"I think you're deliberately keeping us in the dark," said Congressman James Moran (D-VA) to Paul Wolfowitz. "We are finding out far more from the newspapers than we are from you in testimony." Tell me, congressman, did FDR know what each battle of World War Two would cost beforehand? Of course not, and we can't know what each battle in the war on terrorism will cost either - but it's far less than the cost of not acting.
So basically, here's the latest demand from the Democrats. They want to know how much it's going to cost to end genocide. They don't care about the cost of a new prescription drug entitlement. They don't care about the spiraling costs of Medicare and Medicaid. They don't care about the financial integrity of Social Security or how much that's going to cost.
But they do give all kinds of concern to the "cost" of a tax cut, and they want to know how much it's going to cost to liberate 23 million Iraqis and transform the Middle East from a hotbed of terror to a region of prosperity. They want to know how much it's going to cost to end the systematic rape of women and torture of men while their children watch.
When it comes to that, suddenly they're spendthrifts! We're going to spend "too much ending" a genocide. We're going to spend too much liberating 23 million Iraqis. We're going to spend too much to free political prisoners. We can never spend too much "investing" in their precious little social programs, but when it comes to spreading democracy? We have to know what that's going to cost!
I don't remember them asking what Kosovo was going to cost. I don't remember them asking what Haiti was going to cost. I don't remember them asking how much it would cost to launch 450 cruise missiles at Baghdad in 1998 when Bill Clinton was pulling the trigger. They do have their priorities in order, don't they?
#356
Posted 01 March 2003 - 12:37 AM

February 26, 2003
Senate Remarks: Tell the World the True Cost of War
Since last August, the Administration has worked aggressively to convince the American public that Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator who directly threatens the United States. The President has been unambiguous, and often dangerously blunt, about his passion to use force to destroy Saddam's regime.
The Bush Administration has promoted a vision of Saddam's removal from power quickly, easily, and bloodlessly. Indeed, part of the rationale for support for this war is that America's tremendous military superiority over Iraq will confine a military conflict to a relatively painless contest between the United States' awesome military forces and the relatively weak, conventional military machine of Saddam Hussein.
A swift and simple military victory certainly is one possibility, but in our democratic-Republic the Administration also has a responsibility to inform the American people that much less pleasant scenarios are also possible and even likely. The Congress has a responsibility to explore all possible scenarios with an eye to the eventual costs of this war. We must not just accept the rosy projections so far offered by the Administration. Frankly, I have seen little effort by either the Administration or the Congress to inform the taxpayer about the likely costs of this war.
In both dollars and human lives, the Administration has been ominously quiet about its internal calculations and estimates. What is even worse is that the Congress has barely bothered to ask about them.
Earlier this month, the President unveiled his budget for the Fiscal Year 2004. Even assuming the most primitive and loose definition of the term "fiscal responsibility," that budget request should certainly have included some rough cost estimate for a war with Iraq. Even a range of costs would have been somewhat illuminating.
But no cost estimate was included in the President's budget. Let me repeat that. There is no estimate of the cost of the looming war with Iraq in the President's budget. The possible war has dominated the airwaves for months, yet there is no cost estimate in the President's budget. President Bush mentions the looming conflict in nearly every public pronouncement, yet no cost estimate to fight this war appears in his '04 budget. Is the Administration trying to tell the people of this nation it is for free?
When the Defense Secretary presented the President's defense budget to the Senate Armed Services Committee, and was asked what the Administration projected that a war in Iraq would cost, he would only say that such costs are "not knowable." Let us contemplate that answer "not knowable." Does the Secretary of Defense mean to say that this great nation does not yet know what its plans include for a war with Iraq? Is that why the costs are "not knowable?" Does he mean to say that we do not yet know exactly what we are going to try to achieve in Iraq? Is that why the costs are "not knowable?" Or does he simply mean to indicate that he does not want to divulge the potential costs, therefore to us they are "not knowable."
One must presume that by now the Administration would have made several internal forecasts of the military cost of the war using various scenarios, and that the White House Council of Economic Advisors would have prepared for the President a classified study of the projected economic impact of the war. Reportedly OMB Director Daniels has been working on war estimates for months, yet we are told that these costs are "not knowable." None of this information has been made available to the public, nor, I suspect, is it likely to be released in the near future. Congress has a responsibility to demand that information. Congress must not accept the answer, "not knowable." The American people deserve to know the truth.
There was one cost estimate provided by the Administration which came from an interview last fall with Larry Lindsey, the President's former economic advisor, who said that a war with Iraq could cost between $100 billion and $200 billion. He went on to opine that that was "nothing."
Yet, the White House quickly distanced itself from that comment, and the director of the Office of Management and Budget rebuked that estimate, saying that Lindsey's estimate was "very, very high."
The OMB Director suggested that the cost of the war would be closer to $60 billion or $70 billion. The Pentagon recently stretched that estimate to $95 billion. I wonder just what we are to make of these conflicting estimates. How are we to gauge the validity of such widely varying numbers. Do these figures contemplate other complications?
What if casualty estimates grow into the thousands? What if oil prices skyrocket, sparking inflation and lines at the gas pump, and costing the U.S. economy thousands of American jobs? Suppose the Middle East erupts in a tornado of violence, toppling regime after regime in the region?
Even a rudimentary list of the possible contingencies shows that costs may grossly exceed what the Administration wants the public to believe.
The Congressional Budget Office reported last September that the incremental costs of just deploying a force to the Persian Gulf -- that is, those costs incurred above those budgeted for routine operations -- could be between $9 billion and $13 billion. Prosecuting a war, according to the CBO, could cost between $6 billion and $9 billion per month. And after hostilities ended, the costs just to return U.S. forces to their home bases could range between $5 billion and $7 billion.
Regardless of the swiftness of a military victory, there remains the cost of a post-war occupation of Iraq, which the Administration says could last for up to two years and could mean another $1 billion to $4 billion or more per month during that period. On top of that, the United States might face a humanitarian crisis including rampant disease and starvation if Saddam Hussein employs a scorched earth strategy in defending his regime. What about the need for a cleanup of biological and chemical weapons if the Iraqi Republican Guard employs them against U.S. soldiers?
Reconstruction and nation-building costs resulting from installing a democratic government in Iraq have to also be thought about. The American Academy of Arts and Sciences projected that the minimum reconstruction and nation-building costs for Iraq could be as high as $30 billion, and that's under the very best of circumstances. Will the Administration propose something similar to a Marshall Plan for Iraq? The Academy reported that U.S. investments in Western Europe after World War II under the Marshall Plan cost a total of $13.3 billion over a four-year period. That is the equivalent of $450 billion over four years if measured as a percentage of GDP in 2002.
No one likes to talk about putting a price tag on national security, but these costs simply cannot be ignored in light of our current sagging economy and given a projected budget deficit of $307 billion for the fiscal year 2004. Remember, this government is going to have to borrow the money to finance this war. The total price of a war in Iraq could easily add up to hundreds of billions of dollars - - even a trillion or more - - overwhelming a federal budget which is already sliding into deep deficits and warping the U.S. economy and impacting the economies of other nations for years to come.
And unlike the Gulf War in 1991, many of our allies are unlikely to want to help much in defraying these costs. Right now, the Administration is trying to coax nations to join the "coalition of the willing" by paying them, not by asking them to help us pay for the war. "Coalition of the willing" or "COW" for short. It appears to me that the U.S. is the "cow" - - the cash cow in this case. We are the ones being milked.
The Administration reportedly has negotiated a multi-billion package of grants and loans for the Republic of Turkey for use of its bases to open a possible northern front against Iraq. The Administration is negotiating similar multi-billion packages with Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and other allies in the Middle East. I wonder if members are aware of the details of any of these deals in the works or their projected costs over time?
I believe that the costs of this war will be staggering. We know that our nation's most precious treasure, the lives of our young men and women in uniform, will certainly be threatened. But we do not know how great the risk is because the Administration will not talk about its plans. In addition, the cost, in terms of taxpayer dollars, will be enormous. We hear of negotiations ongoing with Turkey that are in the area of $30 billion. We learn of requests from Israel for $12 billion. In addition, Jordan wants to be compensated. We read that negotiations are underway to provide economic assistance to Mexico, Chile, and various African nations -- all of which are members of the United Nations Security Council.
Where will this all end? How many nations will be promised American economic assistance just for their tacit support? And how strong is support that can be bought with promises of American dollars?
This is no way to operate. If the case against Saddam Hussein were strong enough on its merits, the United States would not have to buy the support of the international community. If the world truly believes that Saddam Hussein poses an imminent threat, then let the world say so clearly. But do not taint that decision, do not taint the possible sacrifice of American soldiers, sailors, and airmen, by prying open the door to war with a blank check from the taxpayers.
If war is undertaken without UN sanction or broad international support, the United States taxpayer can expect to pay the costs of the war for decades and pay the interest costs for decades more.
And that's to say nothing about the larger macroeconomic costs to the economy. The economic ripples of a war could spread beyond direct budgetary costs into international energy markets through higher oil prices. The psychological effects of a war in Iraq, especially if it initiates new terrorist attacks around the globe, could further scare the already jittery financial markets and rattle consumers.
If the war goes badly, either through heavier than expected causalities, protracted bloody urban warfare, massive foreign denunciations, chemical and biological warfare, or major terrorist attacks here and abroad, we may be plunging our economy into unfathomable debt which this nation cannot easily sustain.
But even if one discounts these scenarios as unlikely, and sets them all aside, the potential costs of a limited war in Iraq could continue to pile up for years, depending on the total damage to Iraq, the civilian casualties, and the possibility that the war's effects could spread into other countries.
This is a dangerous and damaging game the Administration is playing with the American public. Glossing over the cost of a war with Iraq may make it easier to win short-term support. But without any serious attention to costs, the American people cannot be engaged in a fulsome public discussion about the eventual wisdom of undertaking this war. Public support cannot be sustained to accomplish our post-war goals in Iraq if the nation has been misled about the duration and difficulty of such a conflict. We cannot treat the citizens of this nation as if they are children who must be fed a fairy tale about fighting a glorious war of "liberation" which will be cheap, short and bloodless. If the President is going to force this nation to engage in this unwise, potentially disastrous, and alarmingly expensive commitment, he must lay out all of the costs and risks to the nation.
What is particularly worrisome is how naively the idea of establishing a perfect democracy in Iraq is being tossed around by this Administration. If the Administration engages in such a massive undertaking without the American people understanding the real costs and long-term commitment that will be required to achieve this bucolic vision, our efforts in Iraq could end with chaos in the region. Chaos, poverty, hopelessness, hatred - - that's exactly the kind of environment that becomes a fertile breeding ground for terrorists.
The Administration is asking the American public and the international community to support this war. The Administration must also put all of its cards on the table. A list of real risks and downsides do the nation no good locked in Donald Rumsfeld's desk drawer. They must be brought into the sunshine for the people to assess.
The American people are willing to embrace a cause when they judge it to be noble and both its risks and its benefits are explained honestly to them. But if information is withheld, long-term political support can never be sustained. Once the order is given and the bombs start falling, the lives of American troops and innocent civilians on the ground hang in the balance. Once "boots are on the ground," concerns about the monetary cost of war necessarily take a back seat. This nation will not shortchange the safety of our fighting men and women once they are in harms way.
But our people and this Congress should not have to wait until our troops are sent to fight to know what we are facing, including the painful costs of this war in dollars, political turmoil, and blood.
In a democratic-Republic, secrecy has no place. Hiding information from the public to rally support behind a war, at the very time when the government should be striving for maximum trust will eventually undermine our nation's strength. This conflict will be paid for with the people's treasure and the people's blood. This is no time to affront that sacrifice with beltway spin and secrecy.
#357
Posted 01 March 2003 - 02:39 AM

TEHRAN, Iran, Feb. 28 — Thirteen months after President Bush called Iran part of an “axis of evil,” and on the eve of a possible U.S.-led war against Tehran’s similarly vilified neighbor, Iraq, the Iranian government has quietly weighed its reputation as an international pariah against America’s superpower might. The Islamic theocracy’s conclusion, analysts and sources say, is that U.S. plans to topple Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein should be viewed as an opportunity rather than a threat.
CONFIRMATION OF IRAN’S official policies is difficult due to the country’s own complex political battles, waged between popularly elected reformers and hard-line Islamic clerics who control most of Iran’s power structures.
Still, signs of a subtle shift, especially as U.S. military action in Iraq appears to be drawing near, are perceptible.
On the fifth floor of the Ministry for Culture and Islamic Guidance, a battery of translators surfs the Internet, analyzing articles in a dozen foreign languages and attempting, with the occasional help of a visiting reporter, to appreciate nuances in Bush administration policies.
The behind-the-scenes scrutiny is a sharp departure from Iran’s usual vocal vilification of the United States.
Within weeks, U.S. troops could be deployed inside Iraq, and only miles from Baghdad’s borders with Iran, a country many here see as Bush’s next target for “regime change.”
FULL TEXT with Important links
#358
Posted 01 March 2003 - 04:49 AM
Fri Feb 28, 8:17 PM ET
By BORZOU DARAGHI, Associated Press Writer
SALAHUDDIN, Iraq - Kurdish leaders said Friday they will resist if the United States lets Turks join an invasion of northern Iraq, raising fears American troops will be caught in a generations-old ethnic struggle for control of the strategic border region.
Turkey plans to send thousands of troops into northern Iraq during any U.S. invasion, ostensibly to provide humanitarian aid for people displaced by the fighting. It also wants to prevent weapons held by Kurdish groups from falling into the hands of independence-minded Turkish Kurds, who also have bases in northern Iraq.
"Our people are going to resist the plan with all the means at their disposal," said Kurdish Deputy Prime Minister Sami Abdul Rahman. "Nothing whatsoever will persuade us to accept an incursion of Turkish forces."
"The answer of our people is a flat no," he told reporters after closed-door sessions of a conference of 50 members of an Iraqi opposition steering committee formed in December to guide plans for the country if Saddam Hussein is toppled.
The Kurds fear the Turks will remain indefinitely in northern Iraq and try to subjugate Kurdish aspirations of self-rule because Ankara fears that could encourage Turkey's own sizable Kurdish minority's demands for the same rights.
Turkish troops will be "a boot on our chest" meant to "strangle our people," Rahman said.
FULLTEXT & LINKS
#359
Posted 01 March 2003 - 04:53 AM
January 15, 2003
The Perils of the Pax Americana
by GABRIEL KOLKO
Policies virtually identical to President George W. Bush's national security strategy paper of last September, with its ambitious military, economic and political goals, have been produced since the late 1940s.
After all, the US has attempted to define the contours of politics in every part of the world for the past half-century. Its many alliances, from NATO to SEATO, were intended to consolidate its global hegemony. And Washington rationalised its hundreds of interventions--which have taken every form, from sending its fleet to show the flag, to the direct use of US soldiers--as forestalling the spread of communism. But that ogre has all but disappeared and US armed forces are more powerful and active than ever.
After the September 11 terrorist attacks compelled him to create "coalitions", Bush minimised somewhat the initial aggressive unilateralism that he and many of his key advisers believe the US's overwhelming military capability justifies.
But his disregard of America's allies in the past year is only the logical culmination of the much older conviction that Washington must define the missions of whatever alliance it creates. The world has changed dramatically, but the US still retains its historical ambitions to shape the political destinies of any region or nation it deems important to its interests. Bush's visions are only the logical culmination of policies that began with president Harry Truman in 1947.
The dilemma that the US has confronted since then is that the political and social outcome of its interventions cannot be predicted. Vietnam was the longest war in US history, to cite one of many examples, and in Iran in 1953, as well as Central America, it seemed able to get its way for decades. Many tyrants it supported--as in the case of Saddam Hussein in the Iraq-Iran war of 1980-87 or the fundamentalist Muslim mujahidin against the Soviets in Afghanistan in the '80s--subsequently became its enemies. Others are simply venal and unreliable--Marcos in the Philippines or Suharto in Indonesia were typical.
The US can never attain the world order it idealises.
FULL TEXT & LINKS
#360
Posted 01 March 2003 - 05:24 AM
A 'third force' awaits US in Iraq
By Syed Saleem Shahzad
KARACHI - As the United States squares off against Iraq and the regime of Saddam Hussein there is not much doubt as to whom the winners and losers will be. But if one looks a little closer at Iraq and beyond, there is evidence of a third element, an Islamic movement spearheaded by the Muslim Brotherhood, that could also be a winner.
After Iraq's bloody nose in the 1991 Gulf War, the dynamics of the country's religious society underwent a change, out of which emerged growing support for the Brotherhood. The government is well aware of this, but desperate to cover it up.
On the surface, today's Iraq is Saddam's fiefdom. He is everything: the army, the jury, the judge and the executioner. Hospitals, universities and even a mental hospital are named after him, and what he dictates constitutes the country's religion. To go against Saddam's writ is to invite detention and even death.
In the post-Cold War environment and after the rap on the knuckles he received over his ill-conceived invasion of Kuwait, Saddam realized that he needed an ideology to prop up his authority and his regime. He used Islam to do this.
He had hundreds of mosques built all over the Iraq. He established a fully-fledged Islamic university, called, of course, Saddam University, where only Islamic theology is taught and where Sunni Islam is promoted, while the beliefs of the majority Shi'ites are ignored. Dancing clubs were closed, casinos were shut down, prostitution was strictly banned and bars became a part of history (liquor shops are still allowed, but drinking at public places is forbidden). In a parliament of 250 members, 12 Islamic scholars were inducted.
With these steps Saddam strengthened his political empire, but he still felt that the country was vulnerable to external and undesirable Islamic ideas and influences. So he took steps to plug this potential gap. In particular, all literature of the Muslim Brotherhood was banned in Iraq. It remains so, even at Saddam University, even for reference purposes.
The Muslim Brotherhood is the oldest Islamist group in the Arab world, founded as a religious and political organization in 1928 in Egypt by Hasan al-Banna in opposition to secular tendencies in Islamic nations and in search of a return to the original precepts of the Koran.
It grew rapidly, establishing an educational, economic, military and political infrastructure in Egypt and then in other countries, such as Syria, Sudan and Arab nations, where it exists largely as a clandestine but militant group, marked by its rejection of Western influences.
In Jordan, the Muslim Brotherhood’s political arm, the Islamic Action Front, is an important opposition party. The Muslim Brotherhood has given rise to a number of more militant and violent organizations, such as Hamas, Jamaa al-Islamiya and Islamic Jihad.
Despite the best efforts of Saddam's security apparatus, including monitoring all those who attend mosques, the Brotherhood has managed to plant seeds in the minds of many Iraqis.
For example, although Dr Yusuf Al-Qardawi is no longer a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, he is recognized as a leading Islamic scholar in the Middle East. His books are included in the syllabus of Saddam University. Similarly, the seminal Koranic commentary written by Syed Qutub is also included as a reference book.
According to a teacher at Saddam University, a student reading these books will gain an insight into the philosophies and ideas of the Brotherhood. At the same time, the books' footnotes give references to other important "firebrand" literature relating to the Muslim Brotherhood. As a result, a demand has been generated, and these books are now smuggled into the country, mostly from Syria.
Over the past few years some suspected members of the Muslim Brotherhood have been arrested, and simply disappeared from sight, along with their families. In the past six months, however, after crackdowns at Saddam University where suspected Brotherhood members were arrested and literature seized, the suspects were subsequently freed with warnings after a few weeks in detention.
The reason for this, apparently, is the realization that the Muslim Brotherhood in Iraq is now not limited to a few individuals. They exist in many underground groups from north to south, and authorities fear that any repressive action will generate a fierce reaction.
Saddam faces problems in the north from the Kurds and in the south from Shi'ites. He does not want any problem with the Sunni population, which up until now has been stable and in his favor.
Beyond Iraq, the Muslim Brotherhood is also gaining strength. This correspondent was in Jordan, for example, when the Islamic Action Front declared a jihad in favor of Iraq and Palestine if the US attacks Iraq. In Jordan's capital, Amman and elsewhere in the country, despite the existence of a clearly pro-US monarchy, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Islamic Action Front are registering volunteers at colleges and universities to go and fight against the US in Iraq and against Israel in Palestine.
Any war against Iraq, then, is likely to further strengthen the hand of the Muslim Brotherhood across the region in general, and within Iraq in particular, making them yet another complicating factor in the post-Saddam world.
(©2003 Asia Times Online Co, Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact content@atimes.com for information on our sales and syndication policies.)
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