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Should The Us Go To War With Iraq?
#571
Posted 23 March 2003 - 06:21 PM
Sun, Mar 23, 2003
Iraq Shows Dead and Captured U.S. Soldiers (excerpts)
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi television showed video on Sunday of at least four bodies, said to be U.S. soldiers, and five prisoners who said they were Americans taken in a battle near the southern city of Nassiriya.
The video showed two rooms each containing what appeared to be two separate groups of four bodies in military uniform. Two of the prisoners, including a woman, appeared to be wounded. One was lying on the floor on a rug.
They were the first U.S. prisoners known to have been taken by Iraq (news - web sites) since U.S.-led forces invaded four days ago to overthrow President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). The prisoners gave their names and home towns and one provided his military identification number.
In Washington, U.S. defense officials said a small number of U.S. troops had apparently been captured and others killed by the Iraqi military, and that they were notifying families based on information from the videotape.
The bodies and prisoners were shown on Iraqi television, relayed by the Arabic network Al-Jazeera, which said the dead and wounded had been taken during a battle at the town of Souq al-Shuyukh, southeast of the southern Iraqi city of Nassiriya where U.S. forces have encountered stiff resistance.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the video apparently showing American prisoners of war was a violation of the Geneva Convention. The International Committee of the Red Cross agreed the footage violated the convention.
The dead bodies were strewn on the floor in pools of blood. In the first room, at least two had wounds to the head and another had a groin wound. In the second room, a smiling Iraqi uncovered the bodies, several of which had blackened faces.
The first prisoner shown gave his name as Miller and said he was from Kansas.
Asked why he had come to Iraq he replied: "Because I was told to come here. I was just under orders. I was told to shoot -- only if I'm shot at. I don't want to kill anybody."
Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan had announced earlier that enemy soldiers captured at Souq al-Shuyukh would soon be shown on state television.
#572
Posted 23 March 2003 - 07:05 PM
A 10 percent negative impact of the Iraq war. It would be 80% for NATO otherwise. I am very pleased.
lol
- Thomas
#573
Posted 24 March 2003 - 12:00 AM

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUN MARCH 23, 2003 16:17:38 ET XXXXX
MEDIA BOOMERANG
The microphone reads "IRAQ TV." The screen shows supposed stock market arrows. The station is Al-Jazeera, a mock of Ted Turner's CNN. And on Sunday satellite news turned nightmare as Arab television aired footage of dead American soldiers, some sprawled in a room, and interviews with five U.S. prisoners.
Turner, who once bragged how the invention of all-news global TV brought on the fall of communism at the end of the Cold War, must now be taking a pause at this all-news boomerang.
The 6-minute video which beamed on Sunday showed mankind at its worse -- and Iraqi fighters at their most animalistic.
Disgust and horror do not describe the viciousness of the images. One Iraqi man is captured smiling over dead Americans. Soldiers pants are pulled down, the camera zooms in for a close up of bullet holes in heads as "Al-Jazeera Exclusive" is stamped on the screen.
The DRUDGE REPORT has wrestled with providing the complete video feed to its readers. The families of the murdered U.S. troops have been notified. And if anchormen and others in the media have viewed it, why can't the average citizen?
With a banging conscience, faces of the dead and captured cannot be shown in this space.
But with that same conscience is the total anger, and the feeling many of us have become too desensitized to the atrocities.
Filed By Matt Drudge
Reports are moved when circumstances warrant
http://www.drudgereport.com for updates
©DRUDGE REPORT 2003
Edited by bobdrake12, 24 March 2003 - 12:08 AM.
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#574
Posted 24 March 2003 - 12:15 AM

Last Updated: Sunday, 23 March, 2003, 23:01 GMT
PoW footage 'breaks convention' (excerpts)
Footage of captured American soldiers broadcast on Iraqi television violates the Geneva Convention, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.
In the videotape, broadcast on Sunday, four men and a woman were questioned and gave their names, military identification numbers and home towns in the United States.
It also showed pictures of at least four bodies, said to be dead American soldiers. Some appeared to have been shot through the head at close range.
An ICRC spokeswoman, Nada Doumani, said prisoners of war should not be subject to public exposure.
"Article 13 of the Third Geneva Convention says clearly that prisoners of war must at all times be protected... against insult and public curiosity," she told Reuters news agency.
Edited by bobdrake12, 24 March 2003 - 12:15 AM.
#575
Posted 24 March 2003 - 03:00 AM
Exit pool says, that we (Slovenians) have voted 70% for NATO and 90% for EU.
A 10 percent negative impact of the Iraq war. It would be 80% for NATO otherwise. I am very pleased.
Thomas,
I am very happy as well!
bob
Edited by bobdrake12, 24 March 2003 - 03:01 AM.
#576
Posted 24 March 2003 - 03:20 AM
Sun, Mar 23, 2003
Reports: Huge Iraqi Chemical Arms Factory Found (excerpts)
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. forces on Sunday found what they believe to be a "huge" chemical weapons factory near the Iraqi city of Najaf, about 100 miles south of Baghdad, U.S. networks and the Jerusalem Post reported.
It was not immediately clear what chemicals were being produced at the facility, but both reports said the Iraqis had tried to camouflage the facility so it looked like the surrounding desert and would not be spotted from the air.
ABC News cited one unidentified official as saying of the captured Iraqi general: "He is a potential gold mine of evidence about the weapons Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) said he does not have."
Asked to comment on the reports, a Central Command official said in an e-mail: "While media reports are premature, we are looking into sites of interest."
Earlier on Sunday, U.S. Lt. Gen. John Abizaid told reporters at Central Command headquarters in Qatar that there had been reports that some Iraqi units in the vicinity of Al Kut "may have some type of chemical weapons."
Abizaid refused to confirm the report in the Jerusalem Post about the Najaf discovery.
"I will not confirm that report," he said in response to a question. "We have an Iraqi general officer, two Iraqi general officers that we have taken prisoner, and they are providing us with information."
Fox News reported from the United Nations (news - web sites) late on Sunday that U.N. weapons inspectors had been unaware of any factory in the area of Najaf that might be capable of producing chemical weapons, citing a spokesman for the inspectors.
The United States and Britain launched their war on Iraq (news - web sites) last week to oust President Saddam Hussein because they said he had stockpiles of banned chemical and biological weapons.
Copyright © 2003 Reuters Limited
#577
Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:14 AM
Exit pool says, that we (Slovenians) have voted 70% for NATO and 90% for EU.
A 10 percent negative impact of the Iraq war. It would be 80% for NATO otherwise. I am very pleased.
Congradulations! lol
#578
Posted 24 March 2003 - 04:18 AM
Sun Mar 23 2003 10:51:36 ET
New York – TIME offers the inside story of how Iraq jumped to the top of Bush’s agenda – and why outcome there may foreshadow a different world order. TIME’s Michael Elliott and James Carney profile key Bush administration members who were involved in the decision to go to war. TIME’s special double issue will be on newsstands Monday, March 24th.
"F—k Saddam. We’re taking him out," said President George W. Bush in March 2002, after poking his head into the office of National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, TIME reports.
TIME’s story focuses on Paul Wolfowitz, a senior advisor to President Bush, a neoconservative – someone who thinks that the world is a dangerous place where civilization and democracy hang by a thread. Neoconservatives, report Elliott and Carney, also believe that the U.S. is endowed by Providence with the power to make the world better if only it will take the risks of leadership to do so.
In January 1998, Wolfowitz joined other neo-conservatives in signing a letter to President Clinton arguing that "containment" of Saddam had failed and asserting that "removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power…needs to become the aim of American foreign policy."
Vice President Dick Cheney, another high-ranking neoconservative, agreed. The Vice President told a campaign aide in 2000 "we have swept that problem [Iraq] under the rug for too long. We have a festering problem there." Cheney, who had been instrumental in the ceasefire of the first Gulf War, was outraged by Hussein’s attempted assassination of former President George Bush. He was also, as Wolfowitz put it, "transformed by Sept. 11 – by the recognition of the danger posed by the connection between terrorists and WMDS [Weapons of Mass Destruction] and by the growing evidence of links between Iraq and al-Qaeda."
As one former senior Administration official puts it: "The eureka moment was that realization by the President that were a WMD to fall into [terrorists’] hands, their willingness to use it would be unquestioned. So we must act pre-emptively to ensure that those that have the capability aren’t allowed to proliferate it." One advisor to the president, report Elliott and Carney, went as far as to say that Bush thinks Saddam is insane. "If there is one thing standing between those who want WMDS and those who have them," says this source, "it is this madman. Depending on the sanity of Saddam is not an option."
#579
Posted 24 March 2003 - 05:29 AM
US TROOPS CAPTURE CHEMICAL PLANT
Caroline Glick Mar. 23, 2003
About 30 Iraqi troops, including a general, surrendered today to US forces of the 3rd Infantry Division as they overtook huge installation apparently used to produce chemical weapons in An Najaf, some 250 kilometers south of Baghdad.
One soldier was lightly wounded when a booby-trapped explosive went off as he was clearing the sheet metal-lined facility, which resembles the eery images of scientific facilities in World War II concentration camps.
The huge 100-acre complex, which is surrounded by a electrical fence, is perhaps the first illegal chemical plant to be uncovered by US troops in their current mission in Iraq. The surrounding barracks resemble an abandoned slum.
It wasn't immediately clear exactly which chemicals were being produced here, but clearly the Iraqis tried to camouflage the facility so it could not be photographed aerially, by swathing it in sand-cast walls to make it look like the surrounding desert.
Within minutes of our entry into the camp on Sunday afternoon, at least 30 Iraqi soldiers and their commanding officer of the rank of General, obeyed the instructions of US soldiers who called out from our jeep in loudspeakers for them to lie down on the ground, and put their hands above their heads to surrender.
Today's operation is the third engagement with Iraqi forces by the First Brigade of the US army's 3rd Infantry Division, since Saturday afternoon.
So far in the campaign, the brigade has suffered no losses. But two were wounded Saturday night in an ambush on the outskirts of As-Samwah in southern Iraq.
Copyright 1995-2003 The Jerusalem Post - http://www.jpost.com/
#580
Posted 24 March 2003 - 05:47 AM
You know what really rubs me the wrong way with that "Arrogant Empire" article?
The claim that the Bush Administration failed at diplomacy. They try to present it in such a clever fashion. Argument: Because the Bush Administration came to the UN already bent on war, our diplomatic efforts at the UN seemed insincere. I know, I know, I have already written about this, but I just need to go over this again to make sure I'm not the one who is crazy. lol
Point one
Diplomacy is the action of arriving at a legal international consensus.
Point two
The Bush Administration had come to the conclusion that Saddam's regime represented an imminent threat to the national security of the United States.
Hey, agree with the Administration's position or not, but at least admit that Bush is doing what he thinks is right for America. George W. Bush believes that Saddam is a threat. This is not about the oil. The Administration would never make such a huge political gamble for something so mundane as oil.
Point three
The Administration felt that they could secure a diplomatic approval for war because Saddam would not cooperate. AKA, Saddam couldn't actually admit he had WMD other wise the gig is up.
Point four
The Administration went to the UN to show that it wanted to be inclusive and was willing to allow other great powers to participate and/or support the second Gulf War.
Point five
During the ensuing rounds of diplomacy, other great powers voice their objections and communicated that it was not in their perceived national best interest to cooperate.
Point six
The United State tried to make the pill a little less bitter to swallow by water down the diplomatic language. The Administration also gave other great powers multiple opportunities to come on board.
Point seven
Sometimes national interests do not converge, in which case diplomacy has not failed, it was just not a viable policy option.
Point eight
Just because diplomacy was not a viable policy option does not mean that the United States should not act in what it perceives is its national interest.
If you were George W. Bush and you had come to the conclusion that Saddam was a national security threat that needed to be eliminated how would you present your case at the UN? Would you walk in and say, "Hi, we're the US and Saddam has to go. Let's vote to see who approves?" No, you would establish a set of standards that Iraq had to comply with that you knew it couldn't/wouldn't comply with. This is a diplomatic action. When Iraq failed to comply with Resolution 1441, and no one is in disagreement on this point, it paved the way for a diplomatic action to endorse war. That is the path diplomacy was taking with our direction. The French, Russians, and Chinese disapproved of giving UN approval to US military action in Iraq. Therefore, they stopped the diplomatic process.
The diplomatic process was taken to its logic conclusion.
Edited by Kissinger, 24 March 2003 - 05:52 AM.
#581
Posted 24 March 2003 - 07:42 PM
Immortality Institute Online Chat :: Sun. Mar 30, 2003
Location: Cyberspace http://www.imminst.org/chat
Talking Points: Unmanned Weaponry, Biological Warfare, Nuclear Warfare, and Nanotech's Gray Goo, and potential solutions to stabilize and preempt future geopolitical conflicts.
On March 30, 2003 at 8:00 PM EST the Immortality Institute will hold a moderated chat to discuss the current situation in Iraq as a potential prelude to more sophisticated and potentially more catastrophic consequences dues to unmanned weaponry.

Credit: The Predator's War
Examples will focus on the actions of the Predator, the first drone to effectively destroy an enemy target as reported in the media recently (Iraqi anti-aircraft weapon hit by the Predator March 23, 2003). We will discuss technologies have made it easier for humans to pose war and how evolutionary psychology influences humans to go to war.
The goal of this discussion will be to come up with solutions that may help preempt future aggressions and avert potential annihilation from even more powerful and sophisticated weaponry in the future.
Visit: http://www.imminst.org/chat to open the chat room. Informal chats are ongoing.
#582
Posted 24 March 2003 - 10:08 PM
Mon Mar 24, 1:58 PM ET
KUWAIT CITY (AFP) - The tougher than expected resistance encountered by US and British troops in Iraq (news - web sites) means they may have to engage in difficult urban warfare, even in cities which have little love for Saddam Hussein.
Coalition war planners are aware that the overwhelming technological upper hand that they enjoy over the Iraqis in other spheres of battle can soon slip away in street fighting.
"City fighting is very difficult and it takes a lot of time," said Colonel Guy Shields, who fought with a US battalion that saw heavy street fighting in Panama in 1990.
"We have to be very selective in our targeting. We are doing everything we can to avoid hurting civilians," he said.
The coalition had hoped that the defeat or surrender of Iraqi forces in the south, where the local population rose up against Saddam after the last Gulf War (news - web sites) would negate the need for combat in cities such as Basra.
General Tommy Franks, head of the US command, said on Saturday he had no plans to move on Basra, Iraq's second city and main port, but would prefer to work with civilians there who are "welcoming the forces as they come in."
But Iraqi officials have warned against assuming that civilians would welcome the coalition as a liberating army.
Shields said the coalition possessed technology for street fighting, such as precision guided munitions, which would remove the need to completely destroy a building seen as an Iraqi stronghold.
Coalition soldiers would also have to cope with what he described as an "assymetrical threat".
"You have buildings of various levels, multiple rooms, floors, directions. You do not have such good visibility."
British Colonel Chris Vernon said the problems the coalition had faced in taking control of the port town of Umm Qasr highlighted the problems of urban warfare.
US and British troops have been struggling to neutralize lingering pockets of Iraqi resistance in the town.
"Military commanders do not engage in urban areas unless they have to," said Vernon.
"The less damage we can do to the Iraqi people and Iraqi infrastructure to achieve regime change makes the post-conflict resolution much, much easier."
Some Iraqi fighters in Umm Qasr appeared to have changed in and out of military clothing, a scenario which could cause chaos in Baghdad.
With pinpoint aerial bombardments of Baghdad having so far apparently failed to wipe out Saddam and other Iraqi leaders, the likelihood grows of troops having to move in on the streets of the capital.
Shields said that all US combat troops had trained for such a scenario with many taking part in urban warfare exercises at Fort Polk in Louisiana.
Soldiers test out their firing ability and vulnerability to attack in a mock city, replete with some 50 buildings, by using laser simulation.
"There are different types of building. They practice various entry techniques, room to room clearing," said Shields. They are also taught other fundamentals such as "if someone moves across the street, someone covers. You do not silhouette yourself in a window."
Shields acknowledged that Iraqi soldiers who fought in civilian clothing or took cover behind women and children added to the complications.
"Obviously it takes a little bit more time but our soldiers are not going to become indiscriminate."
http://story.news.ya...q_war_urban&e=5
#583
Posted 24 March 2003 - 10:13 PM
1 hour, 26 minutes ago
By MARTHA IRVINE, AP National Writer
CHICAGO - The U.S.-led invasion of Iraq is awakening the activist spirit in America's youth, with many adding their voices to the war debate and taking to the streets for the first time in their lives.
Bob Nardo is one of them. He and other young Republicans from American University recently gathered to wave U.S. flags outside the French embassy in Washington — a show of displeasure for that country's lack of support.
"Some of us feel like all we're hearing is 'All students are against the war and listening to the Beatles,'" says Nardo, a junior studying public affairs. "A lot of us are feeling trapped and misrepresented."
The war also has prompted Christin Hinojosa to get involved, by performing "guerrilla theater" with a group that includes her mom and brothers.
The day after the first U.S. strike, Hinojosa and others dressed in white, with faces and arms painted in the same color, to play the part of war victims, throwing themselves onto downtown Chicago sidewalks to feign death.
"I think a lot of people, no matter how they feel, are reacting out of fear," says Hinojosa, a graduate student at the University of Chicago's school of social work. "For us, on the side of peace, we're feeling that if we don't stop the war and don't voice dissent, then we are in more danger."
With faces painted like skulls and hands covered in red paint to depict blood, her brothers Damien and Mateo Hinojosa marched over the "victims" and waved "WAR" flags. Onlookers stopped to stare, with looks ranging from amusement to bewilderment to anger.
"You're pitiful! Disgusting!" one man shouted from an open window several stories up, as the group made its way to an anti-war demonstration.
The Chicago event was part of the broadest round of anti-government protests in years. The war also has prompted several pro-American counter-demonstrations and student rallies, from Northern Illinois University to California State University, Long Beach.
High school students are getting involved, too.
Candace Coleman, from Los Angeles, hung "War Is The Answer" posters at her high school after some students staged an anti-war walkout.
Such walkouts — happening at scores of high schools and universities across the country — are just one of many signs that this war has touched a nerve for America's youth.
"Few issues have made me so passionate. Protesters for and against the war, are almost as passionate as those during Vietnam," says Coleman, who got involved because she's "tired of seeing anti-Americanism run amok."
Some young people are so fired up that they're setting aside day-to day activities.
"My parents might cringe to hear this," says Justin Garland, a 22-year-old senior who's leading anti-war efforts at the University of Puget Sound in Washington state. "But for me, social justice activism is more important than school."
Others are making their statements in quieter ways.
Kelli Stripling, a 23-year-old loan officer from Lawrenceville, Ga., says she's showing her support for U.S. troops by refusing to buy concert tickets and CDs for the country group the Dixie Chicks.
Lead singer Natalie Maines angered some with a comment she made during a London concert: "Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas." Maines later apologized.
New Yorker Jessica Beattie also prefers other methods to protesting.
"I don't think protest rallies change minds," says Beattie, a 24-year-old Brooklyn resident who opposes the war. "If the masses really wanted to make a difference in politics, they should voice those opinions through petitions and letters" to their members of Congress.
Still others say it's time to drop the debate.
"Regardless of your opinion, I think people should just suck it up," says Devin Conroy, freshman at Catholic University of America. "If everyone unites, it'll be a much better scenario for our country."
That attitude concerns Beattie, who likens the response to the Dixie Chicks and other dissenters to the mood during the McCarthy era.
But so far — with so many young people and others expressing their opinions — at least one constitutional expert believes there's little to worry about.
"In this country, the First Amendment protects that very debate," says Stephen Frank, director for research at the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia. "And it's a healthy thing for that debate to take place."
___
Martha Irvine can be reached at mirvine@ap.org
http://story.news.ya...young_activists
#584
Posted 24 March 2003 - 10:20 PM
2 hours, 8 minutes ago
CAIRO (AFP) - Arab foreign ministers condemned the "aggression" against Iraq (news - web sites) and called for the "immediate withdrawal" of US and British forces from the country, at the end of a meeting in Egypt's capital.
A final resolution issued after the meeting "condemns the US-British aggression against Iraq" and called for "the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of the invasion forces".
It also calls on "all Arab states to abstain from participating in any military action damaging to the unity and territorial integrity of Iraq or any other Arab country".
The secretary general of the 22-member Arab League, Amr Mussa, told reporters the resolution was adopted unanimously, except for Kuwait which expressed reservations.
Kuwait, the springboard for the invasion of Iraq launched last Thursday, "wanted the statement to include a clause", he said, without elaborating.
But Kuwait's delegate to the Arab League, Ahmed Kulaib, had said Saturday that his country would request that the ministers also condemn the Iraqi missile attacks on the emirate.
The final statement, read out by Libya's minister of African unity, Ali Triki, said the US-led attack on Iraq was "in violation of the UN charter ... and in defiance of the international community".
The Arab ministers said they would task their representatives at the United Nations (news - web sites) "to request an urgent meeting of the Security Council so as to stop the aggression and secure an immediate withdrawal".
Iraq's Foreign Minister Naji Sabri said Kuwait had not sided with the rest of its Arab counterparts because the emirate was taking part in the war on its northern neighbour.
"Only one country, one which is taking part in the aggression against Iraq, did not accept this resolution ... and that's the government of Kuwait," Sabri told journalists.
Kuwait expressed reservations "because it is taking part in the aggression by granting facilities for the US-British aggression", he said, adding that the invasion forces were granted access to two-thirds of Kuwaiti territory.
http://story.news.ya...ab_withdraw&e=4
#585
Posted 25 March 2003 - 02:44 AM
If you were George W. Bush and you had come to the conclusion that Saddam was a national security threat that needed to be eliminated how would you present your case at the UN?
Kissinger,
This is a complex issue which I believe Bush could have performed better.
Some say that Jimmy Carter should have been involved in the diplomacy.
What do you think?
Personally, in spite of the deficiencies in diplomacy, I feel that the US/Britain are doing the right thing by going to war with Saddam. In fact, based upon my research this should have been done years ago.
bob

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter won the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize for what decades of work seeking peaceful solutions and promoting social and economic justice. Carter came close to winning in the Nobel Peace Price 1978 for his Middle East peace efforts.
http://www.house.gov...artertoIraq.htm
December 10, 2002
REP. SAM FARR URGES PRESIDENT TO SEND CARTER TO IRAQ
Farr encourages fellow Representatives to sign letter
(Washington, D.C.) - Today, Rep. Sam Farr (D-Carmel) urged his fellow Representatives to sign a letter to be delivered to President Bush encouraging him to send former President and 2002 Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter to Iraq before using military force. Carter was awarded the Prize earlier today in Oslo, Norway.
In a the letter to President Bush, Farr writes, “inspections and disarmament are not the end of the story…we strenuously recommend that you send Jimmy Carter, one of the United States’ most pre-eminent peacemakers, to Iraq so that we can begin to lay the foundations for a peaceful vision of the future.”
Rep. Farr has consistently voted against military action in Iraq and advocates for peaceful solutions to the ongoing crisis. He voted “no” on H.J. Res. 114 that authorized the President to use force against Iraq at his discretion.
“By sending President Carter to Iraq, President Bush will be sending a message that the United States is a peace-loving nation and is looking towards the future of good relations with the people of Iraq and the next generation of leaders,” said Farr.
“President Carter said it best today: war may ‘sometimes be a necessary evil’ but it is ‘never a good.’ If this nation wants to continue to carry the mantle of world leadership, it must prove not only its might, but also its reason. Sending an envoy like President Carter will send a positive message to the world that the United States seeks peace above all.”
###
Edited by bobdrake12, 25 March 2003 - 04:23 AM.
#586
Posted 25 March 2003 - 07:13 PM
Bush just accelerated the process but Clinton was little better. Containment was doomed from the beginning by itself and when this was argued THEN and all along, it was ignored. The NO fly Zones are self (by US & Britain) imposed not really by UN sanction, and the pleas of humanitarian groups for the entire time have been resoundingly ignored, pleas about human rights, pleas about health issues, pleas about the steadfast worsening of domestic, and cross border relations in that region.
Literally dozens of groups like Voices in the Wilderness, Doctors without Borders, and Amnesty International, didn't just arrive in the last few weeks to the conclusion that Containment was killing mostly children and preserving the dictatorship of Saddam with impunity; there have been repeated reports and UN reports too about ALL of this sent to all three administration involved. And this Administration clearly ignored all concened voices until it became convenient for their war effort and they clearly hoped to forced compliance with a new "Bush Doctrine" under no other circumstances. This is little different then the Gunboat diplomacy of the end of the 19th century. We even have high tech yellow journalism but qualitatively little difference, it is a matter of record. Reality Reporting TV as the embedded season's situational drama.
They didn't just ignore concerned groups before 9/11, they ignored them afterward, and consider some now little more than the enemy. The truth about the atrocities is that we need to stop giving cause to more occurring, not just make promises that "our intent" is so noble while we end up possibly laying waste to a region not just a regime.
If the local populations start open revolt in neighboring Arab Nations we are going to have to go into those too and protect families like that of King Faud, just like Carter was faced with the Shah. But in many more places and with many more difficult challenges, all simultaneously.
We risk having to occupy the entire region not a single nation. I think that this is going to come back to haunt us most, defending monarchies and claiming we are bringing democracy but doing so by force, no less to unseat a dictator. The contradictions cause our message to be lost for all too many people. They won't believe it until long proving it after the war is over and the end of hostilities too may be a long way in the future.
Well the strategy is a failure both domestically and internationally, and this war will be much easier to have started than put out in both places. So rather than whine about the past trying to spin a truth out of a lie; it would be more productive now to figure out how and where we are going to go from here?
Edited by Lazarus Long, 25 March 2003 - 09:43 PM.
#587
Posted 25 March 2003 - 11:54 PM
When I criticize I can only hope that some rational commander is capable of seeing the same limitations as I do and taking the necessary precautions but in a Democracy it is what we do, We the people also must engage in a serious discussion of related issues openly and honestly and end this rhetoric that protest of this nature is UnAmerican it is vastly MORE UNAMERICAN to even contemplate stifling it. It is not a gift to be an American OUR RIGHTS COME WITH THE COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY TO DEFEND THEM FROM ALL THREATS BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Thank the gods for being here and a part of the system that creates the last great hope for mankind, yes, but never for a moment take that sacred responsibility for granted as if it is given like a gift from above, from a state, or from some benevolent benefactor.
We are the system and only We the Peoplpe can preserve its integrity by exercising our rights of citizenship. Never question any longer the Patriotism of Protest for that is as American as Apple Pie, and as critical to the preservation of Freedom as any weapon. In fact it is likely to be our strongest secret weapon, which as yet has never fullfilled its greatest potential.
Here is an article on the Bunkers of Baghdad from the builders o the bunkers. Now perhaps you can appreciate why I say that we are building into a seige of Stalingrad.
I don't think it is as impossible as the author suggests but we are making this a more and more difficult campaign as we proceed and many new fronts are going to open behind the lines around the Muslim world if this even takes weeks to a few months, instead of the hours to days the likes of Mr. Kissinger promised.
Saddam's Bunkers Said 'Impossible' to Destroy
Tue Mar 25, 1:05 PM ET
By Nedim Dervisbegovic
SARAJEVO (Reuters) - Underground bunkers built for Iraqi President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) can resist massive bombardment and those hiding inside could survive for up to six months, a retired Yugoslav army officer who helped build them said.
"I believe that if Saddam does not leave, and I think he has nowhere to go, they will find him in one of these facilities -- if he does not find a way out by then," retired Lt. Col. Resad Fazlic told Reuters in an interview on Tuesday. "These bunkers can resist a direct hit of a 20 kiloton- strong bomb or atomic bomb impact and keep those inside independent of the outside world for six months," said Fazlic, who oversaw the building of the bunkers in the late 1970s.
U.S.-led forces started their six-day-old air and land assault aimed at ousting the Iraqi leader by hitting his compound in Baghdad.
It was not clear if the compound that was hit was one of the two in the Iraqi capital that, Fazlic said, were built for the Iraqi leader.
"I did not take part in the building of this bunker, code-named "2000," but I know it is larger than others, about the size of a soccer pitch, and has everything he might need for a longer stay inside," Fazlic said, referring to one of the Iraqi leader's bunkers.
Fazlic said underground concrete fortresses were built by the former Yugoslav military in the cities of Baghdad, Mosul, Kirkuk, Basra and Nassiriya after Iraqi officials toured similar facilities in former Yugoslavia.
"We also built the so-called "zero," "P" and "C" types of bunkers which were smaller and meant for the military, communications centers and so on but can also resist heavy bombardment and longer isolation," he said.
Fazlic said he took part in the building of more than a dozen underground bunkers in former Yugoslavia which was then led by late President Josip Broz Tito, who had warm relations with Saddam Hussein.
"We built all of these facilities in Iraq (news - web sites) because they liked what they saw here," Fazlic said, citing a large bunker dug into a mountain near the southern Bosnian town of Konjic that was meant for the former Yugoslav government in case of war.
DIFFICULT TERRAIN
"It was a little bit more difficult in Iraq because of the flat terrain. But you would use a valley, dig at the bottom of a hill, build a bunker and than cover it so it can't be spotted from outside," he said.
"The most important thing was to design the main bunker and all those layers above it which were the main protection. Even if you only had to penetrate the main bunker with a missile it would have to impact it at the angle of 90 degrees, otherwise it would ricochet off its rounded surface," he said.
"But before that, it would have to go through protective layers ... and to calculate all the right angles for impact and fire several successful hits in line is almost impossible," he added.
The bunkers also had their own air filtration systems and alternative exits in case the main entrance was blocked. They could only be opened from inside, Fazlic said.
Edited by Lazarus Long, 25 March 2003 - 11:56 PM.
#588
Posted 26 March 2003 - 12:15 AM
If you want to defend the law then you must first enforce the law upon yourselves. We sound a little weak abroad on this one too. When we are using third party countries to circumvent the rules on torture, and there are too many more examples to cite. But virtually ALL serious Scholars of International Law have been quietly telling the Bush adminstration for some time now this is going to come back to haunt us. The very best defense of the Principles of the Geneva Convention are if we scrupulously enforce them ourselves and participate in the creatin and commmitment to the International tribunals of the World Court that were establish to enforce just such crimes. The problem is that this is rapidly moving from a classic Western Sytle conflict into a conflict of irregular forces and "guerrillas".
I respect the Rule of Law and have asked that this be made the first Rule of Our engagement rather than a fallback position as other's see us all too interested in maintaining a double standard(one globally viewed as openly racist by the way). When I argued the Rule of Law I was told that it is a jungle out there. Well be very careful what you wish for, as we are seeing it can come true...
International War Crimes and Violations of the Rule of Law
Founded 1937 Information Sheet on International Law Violations pdf
International War Crimes Tribunal
Iraq: Warring Parties Must Uphold Laws Of War (Human Rights Watch
Yahoo Search on War Crimes Violations
Edited by Lazarus Long, 26 March 2003 - 12:30 AM.
#589
Posted 26 March 2003 - 02:11 AM
Tue, Mar 25, 2003
U.S. Finds Nothing at Iraq Chemical Plant (excerpt)
By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - U.S. military investigators have found no evidence that chemical weapons have been made in recent years at a suspect chemical plant secured by U.S. troops in southern Iraq (news - web sites), a senior defense official said Tuesday.
#590
Posted 26 March 2003 - 02:41 AM

Wednesday, 26 March, 2003, 02:18 GMT
Uprising reported in Basra (excerpts)
British forces on the outskirts of Basra have reported that a violent civilian uprising against Saddam Hussein's regime has begun in the southern Iraqi city.
Major General Peter Wall, British Chief of Staff at Allied Central Command in Qatar, confirmed that it appeared an uprising had taken place, but that it was in its infancy and British troops were "keen to exploit its potential".
According to military intelligence officials, Iraqi troops in the city turned mortar fire on their own civilians in an attempt to crush the unrest, but Baghdad denies any revolt has occurred.
Edited by bobdrake12, 26 March 2003 - 02:43 AM.
#591
Posted 26 March 2003 - 02:49 AM
When I argued the Rule of Law I was told that it is a jungle out there.
Lazarus Long?
Who said that?
I know that I didn't.
bob
Edited by bobdrake12, 26 March 2003 - 02:49 AM.
#592
Posted 26 March 2003 - 05:26 AM
I have heard this from my fellow Republicans also as I have tried on numerous occasions to get them to see past their recalcitrant ways. Old beliefs die hard and Neo Hawks talk about International Law as if the Only Law they will tolerate is OUR Law and that can only be enforced by violence and totalitarian force globally so they set a trap for themselves in this regard but they take us all into the trap together.
I worry about the WMD issue as do all but I felt that we needed to give inspection more time because as you are now seeing we will find them one of only a few ways, when they are used, if they are discovered and seized, in the hands of surrogates that have already secreted them across borders, or conversly if they never existed (as some argue) we are in trouble as the legal foundation of our assault blows away like the sands our troops face, so we plant the evidence.
In fact if I were Saddam right now I would bury them as deep as possible and destroy them immediately if I hadn't, for he might yet retain his country if we fail to find the goods. That is if we don't get accused of planting evidence like some "bad" police departments are notorious for. We are facing a mixed bag of problems now that could have mostly been avoided. We also will have to go the distance in Baghdad and if when it is over we do not find WMD's then it wil the US and Britain accused by the entire world of being in violation of International War and the UN Charter. We need to find evidence or we face a political disaster and it better be reliable evidence or the disaster will be worse.
If we fail to find evidence then we may be required to pay reparations and this will isolate us further, when we don't. We had sufficient time to do a better and more thorough investigation and if we are so sure of ourselves and had such irrefutable evidence that we could go to war then we should have been giving the information to the Inspectors so that they could have better done their job.
It is too early to assume one way or another, but we have placed ourselves between Scylla and Charybdis on this one all right, now we are almost damned if we do, and damned if we don't, one way or another sadly we appear damned.
#593
Posted 26 March 2003 - 05:34 AM
Some say that Jimmy Carter should have been involved in the diplomacy.
What do you think?
No Bob, I do not agree. I think Carter would be useful in certain diplomatic situations, but not Iraq. The problem with Carter is that he is too much of an activist. He wouldn't be fair and impartial. I think Colin Powell is a great diplomat, and did the best job a Secretary of State could do.
You have to remember that diplomacy does not imply a peaceful solution, it implies a cooperative solution.
#594
Posted 26 March 2003 - 05:59 AM
This Is the Reality of War. We Bomb. They Suffer
Veteran war reporter Robert Fisk tours the Baghdad hospital to see the wounded after a devastating night of air strikes.By Robert Fisk in Baghdad - 23 March, 2003
http://argument.inde...sp?story=389918
Donald Rumsfeld says the American attack on Baghdad is "as targeted an air campaign as has ever existed" but he should not try telling that to five-year-old Doha Suheil. She looked at me yesterday morning, drip feed attached to her nose, a deep frown over her small face as she tried vainly to move the left side of her body. The cruise missile that exploded close to her home in the Radwaniyeh suburb of Baghdad blasted shrapnel into her tiny legs they were bound up with gauze and, far more seriously, into her spine. Now she has lost all movement in her left leg.
Her mother bends over the bed and straightens her right leg which the little girl thrashes around outside the blanket. Somehow, Doha's mother thinks that if her child's two legs lie straight beside each other, her daughter will recover from her paralysis. She was the first of 101 patients brought to the Al-Mustansaniya College Hospital after America's blitz on the city began on Friday night. Seven other members of her family were wounded in the same cruise missile bombardment; the youngest, a one-year-old baby, was being breastfed by her mother at the time.
There is something sick, obscene about these hospital visits. We bomb. They suffer. Then we turn up and take pictures of their wounded children. The Iraqi minister of health decides to hold an insufferable press conference outside the wards to emphasise the "bestial" nature of the American attack. The Americans say that they don't intend to hurt children. And Doha Suheil looks at me and the doctors for reassurance, as if she will awake from this nightmare and move her left leg and feel no more pain.
So let's forget, for a moment, the cheap propaganda of the regime and the equally cheap moralising of Messrs Rumsfeld and Bush, and take a trip around the Al-Mustansaniya College Hospital. For the reality of war is ultimately not about military victory and defeat, or the lies about "coalition forces" which our "embedded" journalists are now peddling about an invasion involving only the Americans, the British and a handful of Australians. War, even when it has international legitimacy which this war does not is primarily about suffering.
Take 50-year-old Amel Hassan, a peasant woman with tattoos on her arms and legs but who now lies on her hospital bed with massive purple bruises on her shoulders they are now twice their original size who was on her way to visit her daughter when the first American missile struck Baghdad. "I was just getting out of the taxi when there was a big explosion and I fell down and found my blood everywhere," she told me. "It was on my arms, my legs, my chest." Amel Hassan still has multiple shrapnel wounds in her chest.
Her five-year-old daughter Wahed lies in the next bed, whimpering with pain. She had climbed out of the taxi first and was almost at her aunt's front door when the explosion cut her down. Her feet are still bleeding although the blood has clotted around her toes and is staunched by the bandages on her ankles and lower legs. Two little boys are in the next room. Sade Selim is 11; his brother Omar is 14. Both have shrapnel wounds to their legs and chest.
Isra Riad is in the third room with almost identical injuries, in her case shrapnel wounds to the legs as she ran in terror from her house into her garden as the blitz began. Imam Ali is 23 and has multiple shrapnel wounds in her abdomen and lower bowel. Najla Hussein Abbas still tries to cover her head with a black scarf but she cannot hide the purple wounds to her legs. Multiple shrapnel wounds. After a while, "multiple shrapnel wounds" sounds like a natural disease which, I suppose among a people who have suffered more than 20 years of war it is.
And all this, I asked myself yesterday, was all this for 11 September 2001? All this was to "strike back" at our attackers, albeit that Doha Suheil, Wahed Hassan and Imam Ali have nothing absolutely nothing to do with those crimes against humanity, any more than has the awful Saddam? Who decided, I wonder, that these children, these young women, should suffer for 11 September?
Wars repeat themselves. Always, when "we" come to visit those we have bombed, we have the same question. In Libya in 1986, I remember how American reporters would repeatedly cross-question the wounded: had they perhaps been hit by shrapnel from their own anti-aircraft fire?
Again, in 1991, "we" asked the Iraqi wounded the same question. And yesterday, a doctor found himself asked by a British radio reporter – yes, you've guessed it – "Do you think, doctor, that some of these people could have been hit by Iraqi anti-aircraft fire?"
Should we laugh or cry at this? Should we always blame "them" for their own wounds? Certainly we should ask why those cruise missiles exploded where they did, at least 320 in Baghdad alone, courtesy of the USS Kitty Hawk.
Isra Riad came from Sayadiyeh where there is a big military barracks. Najla Abbas's home is in Risalleh where there are villas belonging to Saddam's family. The two small Selim brothers live in Shirta Khamse where there is a store house for military vehicles. But that's the whole problem. Targets are scattered across the city. The poor – and all the wounded I saw yesterday were poor – live in cheap, sometimes wooden houses that collapse under blast damage.
It is the same old story. If we make war – however much we blather on about our care for civilians – we are going to kill and maim the innocent.
Dr Habib Al-Hezai, whose FRCS was gained at Edinburgh University, counted 101 patients of the total 207 wounded in the raids in his hospital alone, of whom 85 were civilians – 20 of them women and six of them children – and 16 soldiers. A young man and a child of 12 had died under surgery. No one will say how many soldiers were killed during the actual attack.
Driving across Baghdad yesterday was an eerie experience. The targets were indeed carefully selected even though their destruction inevitably struck the innocent. There was one presidential palace I saw with 40ft high statues of the Arab warrior Salaheddin in each corner – the face of each was, of course, that of Saddam – and, neatly in between, a great black hole gouged into the façade of the building. The ministry of air weapons production was pulverised, a massive heap of pre-stressed concrete and rubble.
But outside, at the gate, there were two sandbag emplacements with smartly dressed Iraqi soldiers, rifles over the parapet, still ready to defend their ministry from the enemy which had already destroyed it.
The morning traffic built up on the roads beside the Tigris. No driver looked too hard at the Republican Palace on the other side of the river nor the smouldering ministry of armaments procurement. They burned for 12 hours after the first missile strikes. It was as if burning palaces and blazing ministries and piles of smoking rubble were a normal part of daily Baghdad life. But then again, no one under the present regime would want to spend too long looking at such things, would they?
And Iraqis have noticed what all this means. In 1991, the Americans struck the refineries, the electricity grid, the water pipes, communications. But yesterday, Baghdad could still function. The landline telephones worked; the internet operated; the electrical power was at full capacity; the bridges over the Tigris remained unbombed. Because, of course, when – "if" is still a sensitive phrase these days – the Americans get here, they will need a working communications system, electricity, transport. What has been spared is not a gift to the Iraqi people: it is for the benefit of Iraq's supposed new masters.
The Iraq daily newspaper emerged yesterday with an edition of just four pages, a clutch of articles on the "steadfastness" of the nation – steadfastness in Arabic is soummoud, the same name as the missile that Iraq partially destroyed before Bush forced the UN inspectors to leave by going to war – and a headline which read "President: Victory will come [sic] in Iraqi hands".
Again, there has been no attempt by the US to destroy the television facilities because they presumably want to use them on arrival. During the bombing on Friday night, an Iraqi general appeared live on television to reassure the nation of victory. As he spoke, the blast waves from cruise missile explosions blew in the curtains behind him and shook the television camera.
So where does all this lead us? In the early hours of yesterday morning, I looked across the Tigris at the funeral pyre of the Republican Palace and the colonnaded ministry beside it. There were beacons of fire across Baghdad and the sky was lowering with smoke, the buttressed, rampart-like palace – sheets of flame soaring from its walls – looked like a medieval castle ablaze; Tsesiphon destroyed, Mesopotamia at the moment of its destruction as it has been seen for many times over so many thousands of years.
Xenophon struck south of here, Alexander to the north. The Mongols sacked Baghdad. The caliphs came. And then the Ottomans and then the British. All departed. Now come the Americans. It's not about legitimacy. It's about something much more seductive, something Saddam himself understands all too well, a special kind of power, the same power that every conqueror of Iraq wished to demonstrate as he smashed his way into the land of this ancient civilisation.
Yesterday afternoon the Iraqis lit massive fires of oil around the city of Baghdad in the hope of misleading the guidance system of the cruise missiles. Smoke against computers. The air-raid sirens began to howl again just after 3.20pm London time, followed by the utterly predictable sound of explosions.
http://www.robert-fisk.com
Edited by Lazarus Long, 26 March 2003 - 06:07 AM.
#595
Posted 26 March 2003 - 12:50 PM
It also needs to be very clear that this is a "bait and switch". It has no legal foundation and from the rest of the world's perspective this attitude enforced unilaterally is little more than another "moral crusade" as likely to unite as many against us, as for our cause. But it is a bait and switch because it bears no part in the actually "legal" argument for preemptive invasion and assault, using the argument of WMD's that are the basis of even having violated our own Constitution to accomplish this. It isn't sufficient grounds for a "Warrant of World Opinion" and by acting without such a warrant we make ourselves appear the rogue, and reduce our actions to no more legitimate than any primitive vigilantiism
IRAQ: Human cost of liberation cannot match that of tyranny
By Turner Bond
updated: 03/25/2003 05:43 AM
When we open up Iraq's closed society, one thing we'll find is remarkable courage in the face of extreme terror. Since falling under a dictatorship, the Iraqis have suffered under a system of atrocities that appear to have a dual track. One track seems designed to intimidate and involves very public events like hacking a mother's head off with a sword, in front of her home. The other track is secret and horrifying.
Human Rights Watch estimates that up to 290,000 Iraqis have been killed or "disappeared" by the regime's security forces. Ethnic cleansing and war also has killed many Iraqis. In the north, 100,000 Kurds were rounded up by the government and slaughtered during the late 1980s. More Kurds were killed by chemical attacks.
In the South, up to 70,000 Shi'a Muslims were killed or taken off to prison camps. The number of war dead in Iraq is estimated to be at least 270,000 for the failed invasion of Iran, and about 100,000 for the failed invasion of Kuwait. It has been estimated also that Saddam Hussein has been responsible for the deaths of one million Iraqis.
The toll that this dictatorship has taken on its people far surpasses any losses they would suffer in a war to free them. We will need to follow military might with compassion when we finally open up the secret box of terror that has been modern-day Iraq.
Turner Bond of Columbia, Mo., is a criminal justice consultant and investigates fraud for the state.
http://www.stltoday....r...of tyranny
Edited by Lazarus Long, 26 March 2003 - 12:51 PM.
#596
Posted 26 March 2003 - 12:55 PM
Tue Mar 25, 9:06 AM ET
By MICHAEL R. GORDON The New York Times
CAMP DOHA, Kuwait, March 24 The way to Baghdad is through the Republican Guard. The United States Army and the Marine Corps are now moving up supplies and getting their forces into place to take the fight to Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s most loyal units. According to the allied war plan, by the time the onslaught begins in earnest, the Iraqi troops will have been thoroughly pummeled from the air.
There is little doubt that the United States military has the skills, training and weapons to take the capital and dislodge the Hussein government. The questions are how long it will take, and what the cost will be in terms of casualties, both allied and Iraqi.
The Iraqis are trying to counter the allied strategy by carrying out guerrilla-style raids to disrupt the movement of troops and supplies and divert allied attention to threats in the rear. The advance on the Iraqi capital may also bring allied forces closer to the threat of chemical weapons, according to American officials. They are concerned that the Iraqis have drawn a red line around the approaches to the capital and that crossing it could prompt Mr. Hussein's forces to fire artillery and missiles tipped with chemical or germ warheads.
Baghdad is what the United States military calls the center of gravity. It is the stronghold from which Mr. Hussein controls his forces, a bulls-eye for the American air war commanders and the final objective for American ground forces that have drawn up plans to fight their way to the gates of the capital, then conduct thrusts at power centers inside the city. From the start, the campaign to take Baghdad was envisioned as a multifaceted effort.
It began with a cruise missile attack that was intended to kill Mr. Hussein. Government command centers and bunkers have been blasted with bombs and cruise missiles, attacks that can be expected to continue periodically.
For all the talk about waging a punishing air campaign, the United States has been holding back some punch. The Pentagon (news - web sites) removed hundreds of strikes from its attack plan in an effort to limit civilian casualties and damage to civilian structures.
The calculation is that this approach will make it easier for American officials to receive public support and rebuild Iraq (news - web sites) after Mr. Hussein is toppled. In contrast to the Persian Gulf war (news - web sites) in 1991, Iraqi television is still on the air.
Should American air power destroy Mr. Hussein's government a prospect that seems increasingly unlikely American ground forces would be rushed to Baghdad to fill the power vacuum.
Otherwise, the role of air power is to weaken the government's command and control and knock out Iraqi air defenses, then provide United States ground commanders with air cover if American ground forces have to venture into the still-defended capital.
Airstrikes will also be directed against Republican Guard forces protecting the approaches to the city, including their command and control, artillery and tanks. The goal is to weaken the units and freeze the Republican Guard in place so they cannot drop back and prepare for urban warfare.
The land attack on Baghdad is still in its initial phases. The first step took place Sunday night when the 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment began to strike a brigade of the Medina.
To set the stage for the assault, the United States military hammered Iraqi radar and tried to suppress surface-to-air missiles. But the Iraqis had a low-tech solution: they deployed a large number of irregular fighters who were equipped with machine guns and small arms.
As the helicopters took off, they flew low off the ground to make themselves less inviting targets for surface-to-air missiles. But that made them vulnerable to the small-arms fire. Thirty of 32 Apache helicopters were struck by small-arms fire.
One helicopter went down, and its two-man crew was captured. The Army was so concerned that the Iraqis would get their hands on the technology that they fired two Atacms missiles today to destroy the helicopter. Because of bad weather after the action, the military had no report on whether they succeeded.
The Apaches destroyed only 10 to 15 Iraqi armored vehicles. American military commanders say they are rethinking their helicopter tactics as a result of the events of the past 24 hours.
The weather has also become at least a temporary ally of the Iraqis. American military officials are forecasting several days of cloudy weather with 10,000-foot ceilings and 30-knot winds that will create sandstorms. The bad weather will preclude helicopter attacks and make it more difficult for allied warplanes to attack the three Republican Guard divisions around Baghdad.
But the bad weather will not last forever, and American forces are using the time to get their forces into position and move up large amounts of fuel and supplies.
The marines, for example, are laying a long fuel pipeline in Iraqi territory. American forces are also trying to improve the security of their convoys by deploying more armed escorts on the ground and by helicopter in response to a wave of attacks by Iraqi fedayeen and other irregular forces.
During the stretch of bad weather, the Army hopes to keep the pressure on by firing Atacms surface-to-surface missiles. The weather will make it difficult for allied pilots to hit mobile targets, but the air war commanders could try to keep the heat on by dropping gravity bombs or cluster bombs.
When the moment comes to battle the Republican Guards full tilt, it will be through a combined arms attack involving artillery, close air support and tanks. Army and Marine forces will be involved.
After reaching the outskirts of the capital, American commanders envision a deliberate fight and say they are determined not to rush into the city.
Rather, their plan calls for patient reconnaissance to try to pinpoint the location of Mr. Hussein, his top deputies and the main defenders of his rule, including internal security organizations and elements of the Special Republican Guard. They are hoping that residents will provide the necessary intelligence.
The goal is to avoid house-to-house fighting that could result in large American and civilian casualties. Instead, allied commanders envision thrusts at crucial power centers. Army combat engineers might be at the front of a formation to destroy barricades and other obstacles. Tanks could follow, protected by light infantry to guard against attacks, rocket-propelled grenades and antitank weapons. The formations would also be protected by air power, including spotters that would call in airstrikes and Apache helicopters, which could fire Hellfire missiles.
"If there is to be a fight in and around Baghdad, we're going to have to be very patient to establish the right conditions for us to engage in that fight," Gen. William S. Wallace, the commander of the V Corps, said in a recent interview. "I think that means forming joint combined arms teams that include Air Force, Army aviation, light infantry, armored forces, engineer forces that together can go after a specific target, for a specific purpose."
http://story.news.ya...t_at_what_cost_
#597
Posted 26 March 2003 - 01:05 PM
Annan Says U.S. Responsible for Iraq Aid
Tue Mar 25, 8:25 PM ET
By EDITH M. LEDERER, Associated Press Writer
UNITED NATIONS - Secretary-General Kofi Annan told U.S. national security adviser Condoleezza Rice on Tuesday that the United States is legally responsible for providing humanitarian aid to Iraqis "gravely affected by the war" in areas controlled by coalition forces.
President Bush promised on Sunday that "massive amounts of humanitarian aid should begin moving with the next 36 hours." No aid has materialized, and Annan, Russian President Vladimir Putin and international aid agencies warn of a humanitarian crisis.
Scrambling to answer critics, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer blamed Saddam Hussein's regime for slowing the flow of $105 million in U.S. aid by placing mines in the southern port of Umm Qasr, a key transport point on the Persian Gulf.
Annan stressed to Rice that the United Nations was prepared to provide humanitarian assistance but could not until security conditions allowed the safe return of U.N. staff, U.N. spokesman Fred Eckhard said. "Until then, humanitarian assistance would have to be provided by the United States and its coalition partners in those areas under their control," he said.
Russia and other Security Council members emphasize that under the Geneva Conventions, occupying forces are responsible for providing humanitarian goods to sustain the population.
The U.S. and British decision to attack Iraq despite failing to get U.N. backing for war left the council deeply divided. Russia, France, Germany and China — which believed Saddam could have been disarmed peacefully through U.N. inspections — want to ensure that the immediate humanitarian costs of the war are paid by the United States and not the United Nations. But the United Nations will still be a major humanitarian player in postwar Iraq. Before the war, the U.N. oil-for-food program provided food, medicine and humanitarian aid to 60 percent of Iraq's 22 million people — over 13 million Iraqis.
The program allows the country to sell unlimited quantities of oil provided the money goes mainly to buy food, medicine and other humanitarian goods. The proceeds from oil sales are deposited in a U.N.-controlled escrow account.
Annan wants to revive the program as quickly as possible, but a resolution to allow the secretary-general to run the program for 45 days is stalled. Russia, Syria and others insist it must not sanction the war or give the United States control over the escrow account, which contains billions of dollars, to pay for humanitarian relief.
Rice talked to Annan about adjustments to the oil-for-food program sought by the Bush administration, the U.S. scenario for postwar Iraq, and Washington's desire to return sovereignty to the Iraqi people as soon as possible, said U.S. spokesman Richard Grenell.
Annan said any United Nations role in postwar Iraq beyond the provision of humanitarian assistance must be approved by the Security Council in a new resolution. He also emphasized the need to maintain Iraq's territorial integrity "and the right of its people to determine their political future and exercise control over their natural resources," Eckhard said.
#598
Posted 26 March 2003 - 01:10 PM
1 hour, 24 minutes ago
By SCOTT LINDLAW, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - President Bush is looking to buck up the troops as U.S forces encounter tougher resistance in Iraq, warning Americans anew of a potentially long conflict.
The president on Wednesday was to visit the headquarters of Central Command, whose top general, Tommy Franks, is running the war against Iraq from a forward headquarters in Qatar.
Bush was getting a pair of briefings from Central Command brass and having lunch with troops. At the Tampa, Fla., facility, he also was giving a speech in which he was reminding military personnel that the United States leads a large coalition in the war to unseat Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said.
He also was cautioning a broader audience — the American public — that as the fight for control of Baghdad nears, "this could be long and hard, but that there is no doubt about success," Fleischer said.
That message was to be delivered at MacDill Air Force Base, which houses Central Command. It comes at a time when U.S. and British forces began to suffer battle casualties. Nine Marines were killed Sunday in an ambush, and Army helicopters encountered fierce resistance during an attack Monday on Republican Guard units protecting the approaches to Baghdad. One helicopter went down and its two-man crew was captured.
The turn of events in Iraq was reflected in a new poll by the Pew Research Center that showed just 38 percent of the public said the conflict was going well on Monday, down from 71 percent on Friday.
The first bodies of fallen American servicemen came back to the United States on Tuesday.
Blinding sandstorms plagued the American-led advance on Baghdad. Some helicopters were grounded by the weather and combat aircraft taking off from the USS Harry Truman returned a few hours later without dropping bombs on their targets.
"It's important for the American people to realize that this war has just begun, that it may seem like a long time because of all the action on TV," Bush told military leaders at the Pentagon (news - web sites) on Tuesday. "In terms of the overall strategy, we're just in the beginning phases, and that we're executing a plan which will make it easier to achieve objectives and, at the same time, spare innocent life.
"We're making good progress," said the president, who was to meet Wednesday night with his principal war ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, at Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland.
Bush has not traveled within the United States since Feb. 20, a period in which he oversaw final preparations for battle and also a last-ditch effort to win U.N. backing for the war.
For months, Bush has made warnings of the threat posed by Saddam a staple of his speeches on the road. Wednesday will mark the first time he travels to rally the troops and country behind the war itself.
Central Command is responsible for U.S. military operations in 25 countries, from the Horn of Africa and the Persian Gulf to Central Asia.
It is also overseeing Operation Enduring Freedom — the military's name for the global war on terrorism.
http://story.news.ya..._mi_ea/war_bush
___
On the Net:
Central Command site: http://www.centcom.mil/
Edited by Lazarus Long, 26 March 2003 - 01:13 PM.
#599
Posted 26 March 2003 - 01:16 PM
25 March 2003
The international outcry over the display of American casualties and prisoners on Iraqi state television is thoroughly justified. This was not only a flagrant violation of the Geneva convention, which requires that prisoners of war "must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity"; it was also an offence against the very fundamentals of human decency.
As the Prime Minister rightly said, such treatment only demonstrates the true nature of the Iraqi regime. That condemnation has come not just from Britain and the United States, but from countries, such as Russia, that are taking no part in the military conflict and objected strongly to the use of force in the first place, only reinforces how universally unacceptable it is.
If Baghdad hoped to dispirit the US administration to the point where it called off its action and withdrew its troops, it has made a gross miscalculation. George Bush, and Tony Blair with him, have set their central aim as "regime change". This is not a humanitarian mission on the model of the ill-fated Somalia expedition; this is war. Now started, it will be waged to complete, and perhaps – alas – bloody victory. No one need harbour any illusions about that.
There is none the less a troubling aspect to President Bush's grim-faced denunciation of Iraq's behaviour. Speaking against the backdrop of the military helicopter in which he had just arrived at the White House, he said he expected US prisoners to be treated humanely, "just like we'll treat any prisoners of theirs that we capture humanely". If not, he warned, "the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals".
Now, there are no grounds at all for fearing that the several thousand Iraqis said to have been taken prisoner by US and British forces are being treated in anything other than exemplary fashion, in strict accordance with the letter and spirit of the Geneva Convention. We have not seen any of them paraded or questioned on television. None has been identifiable to viewers. We must hope that the American and the British forces continue to treat their prisoners correctly, however many of them there may ultimately be and however great the temptation to do otherwise.
For all his pledges that the US would treat Iraqi prisoners of war humanely, however, Mr Bush's words rang just a little hollow. The fact is that Iraqis are not the only foreign combatants in US custody. When the military operation against Iraq began, the US was already holding more than 600 foreign prisoners in camps in Guantanamo Bay, its base in Cuba. The vast majority were captured in or around Afghanistan during the operation to root out al-Qa'ida bases in that country in the aftermath of 11 September.
That operation, which ended Taliban rule and has brought a fractious peace to Afghanistan, enjoyed broad international support. The removal of hundreds of prisoners to Guantanamo Bay, however, and their subsequent treatment there, constitute one of the reasons why the Bush administration lost so much of the foreign sympathy that flowed to it after the attacks of 11 September. It also contributes to the international unease that made it so difficult for President Bush to build a truly broad coalition for the war on Saddam Hussein.
There were times, especially at the start, when the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay came very close to being paraded before television cameras. They were shown in conditions that seemed designed to humiliate, confined to metal cages, led hooded and blindfolded to interrogation sessions that were not, and could not, be monitored. The American authorities resisted all efforts by foreign governments and human rights organisations to have their "detainees", as they termed them, recognised as prisoners of war and so subject to the provisions of the Geneva Convention.
Fewer than a dozen of the Guantanamo prisoners have so far been released; none has been charged, and none has been allowed access to a lawyer. US officials insist that they are being treated humanely, but there is no international scrutiny. Only two weeks ago, a US appeals court rejected a plea brought on their behalf that they should be brought into the US judicial process. They are in a total legal limbo, in US detention but not recognised as being subject to US jurisdiction – which was the reason why the administration took them to Guantanamo at the start.
There were those, in the US and abroad, with the prescience to warn that America's refusal to recognise their detainees as PoWs could rebound in the event that US soldiers were taken prisoner in future. Even if the US authorities saw a difference between the "terrorist" suspects they had captured in Afghanistan and rank-and-file soldiers subject to military discipline, it was in the US interest – they argued – to recognise them as PoWs.
Rarely indeed does the decision of a political leader return so swiftly to haunt him. More often, it is the next and future leaders who must extricate themselves from such unintended consequences. Mr Bush's call for US prisoners to be treated humanely would command more credibility and wider sympathy if his administration had appeared more amenable to accepting rules that most other civilised countries accept. This does not excuse the behaviour of the Iraqi regime, even one that is fighting for its survival. But it should be a lesson to a President who has eschewed multilateral obligations – from the Kyoto treaty to the International Criminal Court – and ignored the UN to take his country to war.
http://argument.inde...sp?story=390504
#600
Posted 26 March 2003 - 01:32 PM
http://story.news.ya...g_world_opinion
Shaping world opinion
Sun Mar 23, 7:00 PM ET U.S. News & World Report
BY MICHAEL BARONE
As the liberation of Iraq continues, public opinion in this country has shifted to solid support for the war. Polls taken in the months when war was still a hypothetical were interpreted as saying that only small majorities would support a war. Many polls in this country and more in Britain gave respondents a multiple choice--do you oppose war, favor war if the United Nations approves, or favor war even if the United Nations does not approve? Newspapers like the New York Times--which, under Editor Howell Raines, has used its news columns to conduct a campaign against a war--have taken the results as indicating that most Americans and an overwhelming majority of Britons were opposed to war without an additional U.N. resolution authorizing it.
This was misleading, for three reasons. First, people are poor predictors of their future attitudes. In the seven years I worked for political pollster Peter Hart, our firm avoided questions that asked people what they would do in the future. A poll can ask only so many questions, and we believed that such questions produced unreliable results and were a waste of our clients' money. Second, when people are given an array of choices, particularly an array of three choices, they are moved toward selecting a middle option--the Goldilocks option, not too hot, not too cold, but just right. Third, many polls were based on a false premise, that the United States would not have sanction for war if the U.N. did not pass an 18th resolution against Iraq.
George W. Bush gave some credibility to this false premise by seeking such a resolution at the urging of Tony Blair (news - web sites). But as Bush made clear in his statement on March 19, U.N. resolutions 678 and 1441 authorize military action. Resolution 687 authorizes every U.N. member to take action against Iraq to enforce it and "all subsequent relevant resolutions." Resolution 1441 declares Iraq in breach of its obligations under 687 and other resolutions and calls for "serious consequences" if Iraq does not immediately comply with those resolutions. No fair-minded person can doubt that the conditions of 1441 have not been met.
So it should come as no surprise that Americans, by overwhelming numbers, approve of military action and that increasing numbers of Britons and most Australians voice approval. Now we are told that opinion in "the world" is still heavily against us. Ipsos-Reid, a French-owned polling firm, was quick to offer data supposedly proving that. But, as we have seen in this country and in Britain, opinion responds to events. Americans, Britons, and Australians, with soldiers at risk, rallied to support the military effort. Facts on the ground change the way people see things. People in countries with no troops in Iraq have already, as this is written, seen Iraq fighting with weapons Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) claimed he did not have. We have already seen Iraqi soldiers surrendering and, by the time you read this, are likely to see Iraqi citizens welcoming American and British forces. They will see our soldiers providing Iraqis with food and shelter and medicine. They will see, in time, America turn over the governance of Iraq to free Iraqis.
Much of the revulsion against America today is revulsion against an abstract idea--the idea of the United States' launching pre-emptive military attacks on one country and seeming willing to justify attacking any other. But abstract arguments are not as strong in shaping public opinion as concrete facts. The United States need not use military force to achieve all its goals in the war on terrorism. Already the imminence of American attack has moved Arab governments to do things they were not previously inclined to do. Syria has reined in terrorists headquartered in Damascus and Hezbollah in Lebanon. The Saudis are now calling for more internal freedom and a new charter for reform for the Arab League. At the same time, the great effort and long time it has taken the United States to begin military action against Iraq make it clear that we are not going to take such action in dozens of countries.
This is not to say that the Arab regimes or Iran will behave entirely as we would like or that polls in every country will show that America is loved. But my prediction is that the polls overseas will prove no better a predictor of opinion after the war than polls in America and Britain were a predictor of opinion in our countries before the battle began. And victory in Iraq will have one other effect on opinion: It will most likely dishearten the terrorists who want to destroy our civilization. As Osama bin Laden once said, people naturally prefer the strong horse.
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