113 replies to this topic

[Skötkonung]

Whether the diet is high, mid or low protein (as compared to other macronutrients) is completely irrelevant. Caloric surplus and 1.5-2g/kg protein is the only meaningful requirement. Just wanted to correct this huge misunderstanding.

That is a gross over simplification when describing building muscle or changing body composition. I don't understand how people can throw statements around like this without even providing a source for evidence or without discussing how they have come to this conclusion. Should we just take your word as fact?

First of all, by USDA standards, the protein requirement you stated above is considered high. The USDA recommends 50g protein for active person on a 2000 calorie diet. Secondly, not all proteins are created equal: there are incomplete proteins and complete proteins. If a diet consists primarily of incomplete proteins, the diet will need a larger quantity and variety of protein to make up for the missing amino acids. Third, there is the issue of digestibility. Plant proteins digest differently and arguably less efficiently than animal proteins. This means if you are consuming a mostly vegetable based diet, you will need a higher amount of protein to compensate for lack of efficacy in comparison to a animal protein based diet. Fourth, you are forgetting activity levels. Protein requirements scale to activity levels. 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight may work well for someone engaged in light activity, but for a long distance marathoner or competitive power lifter, protein requirements may sore as high as 3 grams per kilogram of body weight. And Lastly, you are completely ignoring the issue of macro nutrient ratios and body composition. Sure any caloric excess will aid in creation of muscle tissue, but depending on your macro nutrient ratios, you could also end up fat or lean. Many off-season bodybuilders eat a carbohydrate rich diet and end up fat as a result. Thus the process of pre-contest preparation. Carbohydrate restriction and substitution with healthy fats with the same caloric surplus will result in a much leaner results.

[TheFountain]

Whether the diet is high, mid or low protein (as compared to other macronutrients) is completely irrelevant. Caloric surplus and 1.5-2g/kg protein is the only meaningful requirement. Just wanted to correct this huge misunderstanding.

That is a gross over simplification when describing building muscle or changing body composition. I don't understand how people can throw statements around like this without even providing a source for evidence or without discussing how they have come to this conclusion. Should we just take your word as fact?

First of all, by USDA standards, the protein requirement you stated above is considered high. The USDA recommends 50g protein for active person on a 2000 calorie diet. Secondly, not all proteins are created equal: there are incomplete proteins and complete proteins. If a diet consists primarily of incomplete proteins, the diet will need a larger quantity and variety of protein to make up for the missing amino acids. Third, there is the issue of digestibility. Plant proteins digest differently and arguably less efficiently than animal proteins. This means if you are consuming a mostly vegetable based diet, you will need a higher amount of protein to compensate for lack of efficacy in comparison to a animal protein based diet. Fourth, you are forgetting activity levels. Protein requirements scale to activity levels. 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight may work well for someone engaged in light activity, but for a long distance marathoner or competitive power lifter, protein requirements may sore as high as 3 grams per kilogram of body weight. And Lastly, you are completely ignoring the issue of macro nutrient ratios and body composition. Sure any caloric excess will aid in creation of muscle tissue, but depending on your macro nutrient ratios, you could also end up fat or lean. Many off-season bodybuilders eat a carbohydrate rich diet and end up fat as a result. Thus the process of pre-contest preparation. Carbohydrate restriction and substitution with healthy fats with the same caloric surplus will result in a much leaner results.

I'm sorry but this last point is complete bogus as it makes it seem that A-All carbs are created equally and that B-Carbs would be the primary, or only source of fat gain. Some grains are very low on the GI scale, some fruits are very high. Beef raises the GI more than lentils or rice, despite being low carb (yet the former are suppose to cause weight gain?). And we haven't even started on Hydrogenated fats and artificial sweeteners (some of which function to negate satiety) which are still being used in many processed foods like nutrition bars. Not to even mention the fact that many men with muscle mass and low body fat consume high carb diets. They just choose their carbs well apparently or have a predisposition toward being able to consume them. I'm not trying to be combative, I just hate when people think they are right about everything just because they've seen good results on their diets. Other's have seen good results (including biomarkers) on diets completely different than the one you are espousing. The truth can come in many flavours, it doesn't have to be one over the other.

[Skötkonung]

I'm sorry but this last point is complete bogus as it makes it seem that A-All carbs are created equally and that B-Carbs would be the primary, or only source of fat gain. Some grains are very low on the GI scale, some fruits are very high. Beef raises the GI more than lentils or rice, despite being low carb (yet the former are suppose to cause weight gain?). And we haven't even started on Hydrogenated fats and artificial sweeteners (some of which function to negate satiety) which are still being used in many processed foods like nutrition bars. Not to even mention the fact that many men with muscle mass and low body fat consume high carb diets. They just choose their carbs well apparently or have a predisposition toward being able to consume them. I'm not trying to be combative, I just hate when people think they are right about everything just because they've seen good results on their diets. Other's have seen good results (including biomarkers) on diets completely different than the one you are espousing. The truth can come in many flavours, it doesn't have to be one over the other.

I agree with you, there our body processes different types of carbohydrates differently just as it processes the different types of fats differently. I don't think all carbs are bad. Let me try and explain why I advocate a low carb lifestyle...correct me if im wrong!

In my personal experience with bodybuilding, I have noticed that carbohydrates increase the rate of body fat accumulation during off season preparation. The reason being is that carbohydrates cause glycogen storage to fill up much more rapidly than fats or protein. Once that occurs, the excess glycogen is stored as body fat. To counter this weight gain, many body builders practice something called carbohydrate cycling where for a period of several days they eat a low carbohydrate diet and deplete their glycogen storage. After this has occurred, they eat somewhat normally for several days to slightly replenish their glycogen before reverting back to the low carbohydrate period. This process is repeated until the contest as it keeps glycogen storage from ever becoming completely full. When combined with cardio, it allows bodybuilders to lose weight without losing much muscle or gaining any fat.

This idea is also one of the principles used to justify a lower carb lifestyle. If you constantly keep your glycogen storage from becoming completely full, you will never store excess bodyfat. People do this by regulating carbs to activity level.

I have obviously over simplified this...but if you want a better understanding of what I'm trying to say, check out this longer, more indepth article: http://www.bodybuild...m/fun/par30.htm

[kismet]

Whether the diet is high, mid or low protein (as compared to other macronutrients) is completely irrelevant. Caloric surplus and 1.5-2g/kg protein is the only meaningful requirement. Just wanted to correct this huge misunderstanding.

That is a gross over simplification when describing building muscle or changing body composition. I don't understand how people can throw statements around like this without even providing a source for evidence or without discussing how they have come to this conclusion. Should we just take your word as fact?

Because it is consensus when it comes to muscle building? You do not need more than 1.5 to about 2g/kg protein. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise
Actually I believe it as an incredibly accurate rule of thumb. Now that I think of it, I can understand that one could misconstrue my post as saying "you can eat a gazillon calories of carbs more than you require and expect not to get fat and put on lean muscle [in fact I am not talking about body composition per se; only muscle]". I'm sorry, that's not what it meant.
If you are a competetive athlete you may have to eat >>4000kcal to keep up with your demands, most of the calories will come from carbs, fast carbs. The diet will be mid-high in carbs and still provide enough protein to keep or add muscle and to improve or keep body composition.
Getting enough fats (the essential fats anyway) and a certain composition of diet could influence T-secretion and further improve body composition (and a healthy diet would be still.. healthy), but it's all secondary compared to ~2g/kg P and a mild caloric surplus.

Edited by kismet, 11 April 2009 - 04:01 PM.

[TheFountain]

I have noticed that carbohydrates increase the rate of body fat accumulation during off season preparation.

But how can you have 'noticed' this if you don't know every nuance of an individuals diet? Besides this statement once again presumes all carbs are responsible for weight gain. If this is not what you mea then why not say 'I notice refined or high GI carbs coupled with other variables cause weight gain'? But then you might as well just say high GI foods that lead to advanced glycation cause weight gain. That obviously does not just include refined carbs.

The reason being is that carbohydrates cause glycogen storage to fill up much more rapidly than fats or protein.

But this flies in the face of the fact that some paleo foods, such as red meat, have higher glycemix indexes than some high carb asiatic foods, like rice and lentils. It can't just be that carbs cause weight gain, that is way too simple an assertion for my taste. There has to be other variables, including the kind of carbs, meats and fats. Not all meats are created equally either. And I am sure that most studies on this have not taken this into account.

Once that occurs, the excess glycogen is stored as body fat. To counter this weight gain, many body builders practice something called carbohydrate cycling where for a period of several days they eat a low carbohydrate diet and deplete their glycogen storage.

But you are basing this on observation of athletic behaviour, not the general population of well built, muscular males with low body fat. Low body fat is not synonymous with low carb consumption. Plenty of high carb dieters have 8% and lower body fat, despite only working out meagerly.

This idea is also one of the principles used to justify a lower carb lifestyle.

Everything we are discussing points back to insulin response and glycation. So it would make more sense to justify a low glycation lifestyle than a low carb one. Lentils and rice should be okay, some forms of bread should be okay. But at the same time some forms of meat shouldn't, some forms of fruits shouldn't. Instead of making it a carb issue we should make it a glycation issue.


As per your link, you are assuming I have little to no knowledge and have yet to read the relevant info. Wrong assumption.

[sthira]

Lentils and rice should be okay, some forms of bread should be okay. But at the same time some forms of meat shouldn't, some forms of fruits shouldn't.

Which fruit?

[TheFountain]

Lentils and rice should be okay, some forms of bread should be okay. But at the same time some forms of meat shouldn't, some forms of fruits shouldn't.

Which fruit?

Like, watermelon and dates, for example.

Edited by TheFountain, 12 April 2009 - 10:12 AM.

[Skötkonung]

But this flies in the face of the fact that some paleo foods, such as red meat, have higher glycemix indexes than some high carb asiatic foods, like rice and lentils. It can't just be that carbs cause weight gain, that is way too simple an assertion for my taste. There has to be other variables, including the kind of carbs, meats and fats. Not all meats are created equally either. And I am sure that most studies on this have not taken this into account.

You are making the assumption that the human body metabolizes all high GI foods similarly, regardless of macro nutrient content. I will quote myself from another similar thread:

As for insulin spikes - this is desired when ingesting protein as it helps muscle tissue uptake of amino acids. Normal insulin spiking is obviously needed and wanted, but not spikes so big that they're going to significantly decrease insulin sensitivity. In the case of a paleo style diet, this does not seem to happen as it does in carbohydrate rich diets. According to a recent study (see corresponding ImmInst post), switching to a high protein diet actually enhanced insulin sensitivity and generally improved the subject's biomarkers. This would seem counter intuitive to your claim that a high protein paleo style diet is life shortening. If these insulin spikes were all that mattered, then fish and beef should screw up fat metabolism as bad as pasta and rice. It seems pretty clear that they don't, so there must be something else at play besides insulin. One possibility is glucagon, which is antagonistic to insulin in several respects (for example, while insulin inhibits lipolysis, glucagon encourages lipolysis). Worse yet, not only does insulin not tell the whole story, but even predicting the insulin response to various foods isn't as easy as it seems to be. The macro nutrient content and the glycemic index of food seems to be only a partial predictor.

Regarding your examples (none were provided) of low bodyfat high carb dieters, I do not deny they exist. A relatively low bodyfat can be achieved on almost any macro nutrient ratio if your activity level regularly exceeds your caloric intake. When discussing the merits of a high fat - medium protein - low carb diet, gaining muscle and maintaining this low bodyfat is often brought up. Since gaining muscle requires a caloric surplus, dietary ratios suddenly become much more important if one wants to remain lean and healthy.

I understand you disagree with my views on dietary health, so please prove me wrong (i would gadly change my views) by showing me an example of a lean individual with an above average muscular build that comsumes a perenially high carb diet.

[yucca06]

...

I understand you disagree with my views on dietary health, so please prove me wrong (i would gadly change my views) by showing me an example of a lean individual with an above average muscular build that comsumes a perenially high carb diet.

Carl Lewis.

Vegetalian.

You even have a video here : http://video.google....765316519516434

Edwin Moses, who was more muscular, and also vegan.



Not really skinny, huh ?

On the bodybuilding side, you have Andreas Cahling (lacto vegetarian) :



and many others...

nice list here :
http://www.animallib...getAthletes.htm

All of them eat a moderate to high cal/high carbs/low prots diet (high cals for endurance athletes, moderate for strength, speed athletes). We just need enough cals to grow, and a physical activity to stay lean. You can build muscles with only 0,8/1g prot/kg. Just ask them how they did...

(edit : I'm not affiliated with the animal liberation front in any ways...just found this list googling "vegan athletes"...)

Edited by yucca06, 12 April 2009 - 12:52 PM.

[wydell]

Interesting comments by Carl Lewis on diet

http://www.vegsource...lewis_intro.htm

[TheFountain]

...

I understand you disagree with my views on dietary health, so please prove me wrong (i would gadly change my views) by showing me an example of a lean individual with an above average muscular build that comsumes a perenially high carb diet.

Carl Lewis.

Vegetalian.

You even have a video here : http://video.google....765316519516434

Edwin Moses, who was more muscular, and also vegan.



Not really skinny, huh ?

On the bodybuilding side, you have Andreas Cahling (lacto vegetarian) :



and many others...

nice list here :
http://www.animallib...getAthletes.htm

All of them eat a moderate to high cal/high carbs/low prots diet (high cals for endurance athletes, moderate for strength, speed athletes). We just need enough cals to grow, and a physical activity to stay lean. You can build muscles with only 0,8/1g prot/kg. Just ask them how they did...

(edit : I'm not affiliated with the animal liberation front in any ways...just found this list googling "vegan athletes"...)

This guy is 100% high carb vegan.

Attached Files

•  Vegan_body_builder.jpg   84.18KB   13 downloads

[WyaienWyaeengee]

This guy is 100% high carb vegan.

Who is that guy?

Interesting comments by Carl Lewis on diet

http://www.vegsource...lewis_intro.htm

Here's a total gem by Carl Lewis:
"In fact, my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet."

He forgot "spiked with pseudoephedrine, ephedrine, phenylpropanolamine and probably some other banned substances as well." Oh yeah, I forgot about the disclaimer... "inadvertent use."

Edited by WyaienWyaeengee, 12 April 2009 - 07:15 PM.

[wydell]

Is that just cold medicine? At least, that's what I thought was related to his alleged inappropriate drug use. I did not think it was anabolic steroids or anything like that. Anyway, the more I look into the issue, the more I think it is possible to be muscular (at least, much more so than average) and to be athletic on a lower protein, vegetarian diet.



nteresting comments by Carl Lewis on diet

http://www.vegsource...lewis_intro.htm[/quote]
Here's a total gem by Carl Lewis:
"In fact, my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet."

He forgot "spiked with pseudoephedrine, ephedrine, phenylpropanolamine and probably some other banned substances as well." Oh yeah, I forgot about the disclaimer... "inadvertent use."
[/quote]

[Skötkonung]

Hmm, does anyone have any exact information on their diets. Sure they were vegan / vegetarian, but that does not necessarily mean they have a high carb diet all year. Looking over at Veganbodybuilding.com it appears vegan / vegetarians are very smart at modulating their macronutrient ratios - often taking multiple protein shakes daily and eating diets heavy in nuts. This seems low carb to me.

"As a vegan, I do not consume meat and avoid all animal products and abstain from using anything animal derived or tested on animals. This is for a number of reasons, but primarily because I don't want to cause harm to animals and because I want to be healthier and focus on consuming plant-based foods."

...

"In fitness, nutrition is equally as important as it is in bodybuilding. You want to focus on eating about six meals a day, again with attention to 40% protein, 30% carbohydrates, and 30% fats, each day." [src] This does not seem "high" carb.


Vegan food list by protein content:
http://www.veganbody..._proteincontent

Specifically, it appears vegan and vegetarian bodybuilders consciously augment their diet to be low carb during contest prep and high carb - high protein during off season just like regular bodybuilders.
http://www.veganbody...i...f=6&t=17267

My interest is, can someone bulk up on a high carb diet without rapid fat gain like can occur on a paleo diet?

[JLL]

Didn't Carl Lewis himself admit taking all kinds of drugs in the documentary about steroids? Cough medicine was just an excuse to exploit a loophole in the regulations.

[TheFountain]

Who is that guy?

Robert Cheeke

Here's another picture of him at his peak.

http://www.robertcheeke.com/body3.jpg

Edited by TheFountain, 13 April 2009 - 11:29 AM.

[Not_Supplied]

I think you have to consider your cultural values when judging what looks 'good' as well. I respect bodybuilders, but my ideal is very far from that.

[Shepard]

Didn't Carl Lewis himself admit taking all kinds of drugs in the documentary about steroids? Cough medicine was just an excuse to exploit a loophole in the regulations.

Carl Lewis has never admitted it, and will never admit it because it would mean that Ben Johnson was faster than he was.

[Logan]

Just curious. Do Paleo dieters tend to look older or younger by their 30s-40s than vegetarian/moderate carbohydrate consumers? Anyone have comparison pics? All I have are these famous people to cite.

Jared Leto at age 38 (vegetarian/Moderate carb consumer).
http://4.bp.blogspot...heSauceRR02.jpg
I think leto looks about 15 years younger than he is, on average.

Mark sisson. (paleo dieter) At 50
http://blog.kir.com/...rk%20sisson.gif
I think mark looks his age facially.

Note: before people attack me for posting two individuals who are 13 years apart in age I want to point out that these are the only references I had for strict vegetarian VS strict paleo dieter. And I was not comparing these two based directly but based on their age versus how young/old they may appear in relation to those of the same age groups, on average. And I am referring to overall look of age not the body, but the face. I think Mark sissons body looks about 17 years younger than it is, but sorry, I think his face looks its age. Whereas I think Jared letos face and body look about 15 years younger than his age.

Leto looks young in that picture, no where near 15 years younger. And up close and personal without makeup, he probably looks like a youthful 29. Bad example. I'm breaking my own wish to never hear about Jared Leto again. My bad!

[TheFountain]

Just curious. Do Paleo dieters tend to look older or younger by their 30s-40s than vegetarian/moderate carbohydrate consumers? Anyone have comparison pics? All I have are these famous people to cite.

Jared Leto at age 38 (vegetarian/Moderate carb consumer).
http://4.bp.blogspot...heSauceRR02.jpg
I think leto looks about 15 years younger than he is, on average.

Mark sisson. (paleo dieter) At 50
http://blog.kir.com/...rk%20sisson.gif
I think mark looks his age facially.

Note: before people attack me for posting two individuals who are 13 years apart in age I want to point out that these are the only references I had for strict vegetarian VS strict paleo dieter. And I was not comparing these two based directly but based on their age versus how young/old they may appear in relation to those of the same age groups, on average. And I am referring to overall look of age not the body, but the face. I think Mark sissons body looks about 17 years younger than it is, but sorry, I think his face looks its age. Whereas I think Jared letos face and body look about 15 years younger than his age.

Leto looks young in that picture, no where near 15 years younger. And up close and personal without makeup, he probably looks like a youthful 29. Bad example. I'm breaking my own wish to never hear about Jared Leto again. My bad!

Why do people assume he wears a bunch of make up? Maybe he just has a good complexion? Look at his hand in this picture, even that looks younger than most almost 40 males. Is he wearing make up on his hand?

Edited by TheFountain, 17 December 2010 - 06:53 AM.

[Logan]

Just curious. Do Paleo dieters tend to look older or younger by their 30s-40s than vegetarian/moderate carbohydrate consumers? Anyone have comparison pics? All I have are these famous people to cite.

Jared Leto at age 38 (vegetarian/Moderate carb consumer).
http://4.bp.blogspot...heSauceRR02.jpg
I think leto looks about 15 years younger than he is, on average.

Mark sisson. (paleo dieter) At 50
http://blog.kir.com/...rk%20sisson.gif
I think mark looks his age facially.

Note: before people attack me for posting two individuals who are 13 years apart in age I want to point out that these are the only references I had for strict vegetarian VS strict paleo dieter. And I was not comparing these two based directly but based on their age versus how young/old they may appear in relation to those of the same age groups, on average. And I am referring to overall look of age not the body, but the face. I think Mark sissons body looks about 17 years younger than it is, but sorry, I think his face looks its age. Whereas I think Jared letos face and body look about 15 years younger than his age.

Leto looks young in that picture, no where near 15 years younger. And up close and personal without makeup, he probably looks like a youthful 29. Bad example. I'm breaking my own wish to never hear about Jared Leto again. My bad!

Why do people assume he wears a bunch of make up? Maybe he just has a good complexion? Look at his hand in this picture, even that looks younger than most almost 40 males. Is he wearing make up on his hand?

Oh boy, that's an obvious professional shot, he's wearing make-up. It's also a picture, and no where near a close up. Fairly close quality pictures of me in my lower to mid 30s had me looking like I was ten years younger than my age, but closer up and in real life I looked more like 5 or 6. I and other friends of mine look pretty damn good for our age and this is after years of abusing our bodies drinking booze and smoking cigarettes and having less than ideal diets. Wake up out of your vegan dream.

Those hands may look great, but again, it's a picture and it is NOT a close up. Also, vegan or not, anyone that lived in a warm moist climate and did not do any work that involved constantly drying hands or exposing it to damaging toxins or excessive sun is going to have good body skin in their 30s and even 40s. Yes, he looks great, but I want to see him up close after he roles out of bed in the morning with zero moisturizer or product and squinting or smiling.

Edited by morganator, 17 December 2010 - 07:44 AM.

[Logan]

...

I understand you disagree with my views on dietary health, so please prove me wrong (i would gadly change my views) by showing me an example of a lean individual with an above average muscular build that comsumes a perenially high carb diet.

Carl Lewis.

Vegetalian.

You even have a video here : http://video.google....765316519516434

Edwin Moses, who was more muscular, and also vegan.



Not really skinny, huh ?

On the bodybuilding side, you have Andreas Cahling (lacto vegetarian) :



and many others...

nice list here :
http://www.animallib...getAthletes.htm

All of them eat a moderate to high cal/high carbs/low prots diet (high cals for endurance athletes, moderate for strength, speed athletes). We just need enough cals to grow, and a physical activity to stay lean. You can build muscles with only 0,8/1g prot/kg. Just ask them how they did...

(edit : I'm not affiliated with the animal liberation front in any ways...just found this list googling "vegan athletes"...)

This guy is 100% high carb vegan.

How a fairly young and very gifted athlete with an obviously superior genetic make-up who eats a vegan and high carbohydrate diet looks is no measure of how a vegan diet can make someone look youthful and great. A person who is in great shape with superior genetics can treat their body like shit in a big way up until a certain age and still look fucking great.

Edited by morganator, 17 December 2010 - 07:41 AM.

[TheFountain]

Just curious. Do Paleo dieters tend to look older or younger by their 30s-40s than vegetarian/moderate carbohydrate consumers? Anyone have comparison pics? All I have are these famous people to cite.

Jared Leto at age 38 (vegetarian/Moderate carb consumer).
http://4.bp.blogspot...heSauceRR02.jpg
I think leto looks about 15 years younger than he is, on average.

Mark sisson. (paleo dieter) At 50
http://blog.kir.com/...rk%20sisson.gif
I think mark looks his age facially.

Note: before people attack me for posting two individuals who are 13 years apart in age I want to point out that these are the only references I had for strict vegetarian VS strict paleo dieter. And I was not comparing these two based directly but based on their age versus how young/old they may appear in relation to those of the same age groups, on average. And I am referring to overall look of age not the body, but the face. I think Mark sissons body looks about 17 years younger than it is, but sorry, I think his face looks its age. Whereas I think Jared letos face and body look about 15 years younger than his age.

Leto looks young in that picture, no where near 15 years younger. And up close and personal without makeup, he probably looks like a youthful 29. Bad example. I'm breaking my own wish to never hear about Jared Leto again. My bad!

Why do people assume he wears a bunch of make up? Maybe he just has a good complexion? Look at his hand in this picture, even that looks younger than most almost 40 males. Is he wearing make up on his hand?

Oh boy, that's an obvious professional shot, he's wearing make-up. It's also a picture, and no where near a close up. Fairly close quality pictures of me in my lower to mid 30s had me looking like I was ten years younger than my age, but closer up and in real life I looked more like 5 or 6. I and other friends of mine look pretty damn good for our age and this is after years of abusing our bodies drinking booze and smoking cigarettes and having less than ideal diets. Wake up out of your vegan dream.

Those hands may look great, but again, it's a picture and it is NOT a close up. Also, vegan or not, anyone that lived in a warm moist climate and did not do any work that involved constantly drying hands or exposing it to damaging toxins or excessive sun is going to have good body skin in their 30s and even 40s. Yes, he looks great, but I want to see him up close after he roles out of bed in the morning with zero moisturizer or product and squinting or smiling.

Now you're getting ridiculous. My girlfriend, who is 22 and beautiful, does not look amazing when she rolls out of bed in the morning. Who does? The body is in a recuperative state from hours of hybernation. It needs time for the various fluids to settle to even look awake. I myself, at 26, experience problems waking up sometimes, which requires a period of several hours of supplement administration exercise and food intake overcome. It is a fundamental aspect of the human condition you speak of, nobody looks amazing in the morning. But I agree that photo of leto is not the best. Here is a live video, in which he looks YOUNGER than in that photo. No professional job here, just a spontaneous interview. And btw I am not on vegan anything, I am pescetarian (which i still reckon is much healthier than a normal western, meat centric diet).

Again most young females think he looks way younger than his age, generally the consensus amongs females between the ages of 15-25 is that this man looks early to mid 20s. I will take their opinion over that of an envious male of comparable age to jared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJhz0AkElBc&feature=related

[Logan]

Where do you get that most young females think Jared Leto looks like he's in his lower to mid 20s? I actually agree with mid 20s(like 26), I just think lower 20s is pushing it. The guy has obviously been good to himself for the most part, avoiding too much sun, too much stress, enjoying life and eating healthy food. I just don't think the X factor is his vegan diet.

I also think he has one of those baby faces, much like David Duchovny and Brad Lowe. The real test will be when he gets into his forties.

Edited by morganator, 18 December 2010 - 01:14 AM.

[Logan]

That video doesn't show me much other than some jowl or something I hadn't noticed before, he has a bad haircut, and he doesn't have much of a personality.

This shot of him is no where near close enough to really see what's going in around his eyes. I also would not put it past him to have worn make-up for this interview.

The dude looks great, but I don't think he's going to hold onto this look for much longer. If he does, it will likely be due to some type of cosmetic treatment, not his vegan diet.

[TheFountain]

Where do you get that most young females think Jared Leto looks like he's in his lower to mid 20s? I actually agree with mid 20s(like 26), I just think lower 20s is pushing it. The guy has obviously been good to himself for the most part, avoiding too much sun, too much stress, enjoying life and eating healthy food. I just don't think the X factor is his vegan diet.

I also think he has one of those baby faces, much like David Duchovny and Brad Lowe. The real test will be when he gets into his forties.

Do you know what jowls are? They consist of sagging lower jaw flesh. He does not display that at all, in this video or anywhere else. You are delusional. Just go look at any number of youtube video comments, most females between those ages think he looks 22-25.

[TheFountain]

That video doesn't show me much other than some jowl or something I hadn't noticed before, he has a bad haircut, and he doesn't have much of a personality.

This shot of him is no where near close enough to really see what's going in around his eyes. I also would not put it past him to have worn make-up for this interview.

The dude looks great, but I don't think he's going to hold onto this look for much longer. If he does, it will likely be due to some type of cosmetic treatment, not his vegan diet.

Cynicism. You believe that because you are late 30s and already show some deterioration that he must. Vegan diets have been clinically shown to lower IGF-1, which has been associated with a plethora of health downfalls. Consider that. There are several other people on vegan/raw food diets who look good for their age.

[JLL]

Cynicism. You believe that because you are late 30s and already show some deterioration that he must. Vegan diets have been clinically shown to lower IGF-1, which has been associated with a plethora of health downfalls. Consider that. There are several other people on vegan/raw food diets who look good for their age.

Vegan diets have also been shown to result in Vitamin B12 and carnosine deficiencies, which have been associated with a plethora of health downfalls. There are several people on vegan/raw food diets who look terrible.

[TheFountain]

Cynicism. You believe that because you are late 30s and already show some deterioration that he must. Vegan diets have been clinically shown to lower IGF-1, which has been associated with a plethora of health downfalls. Consider that. There are several other people on vegan/raw food diets who look good for their age.

Vegan diets have also been shown to result in Vitamin B12 and carnosine deficiencies, which have been associated with a plethora of health downfalls. There are several people on vegan/raw food diets who look terrible.

Yes, the ones who never heard of supplements and fill up on junk food.

Edited by TheFountain, 18 December 2010 - 06:56 PM.

[Logan]

That video doesn't show me much other than some jowl or something I hadn't noticed before, he has a bad haircut, and he doesn't have much of a personality.

This shot of him is no where near close enough to really see what's going in around his eyes. I also would not put it past him to have worn make-up for this interview.

The dude looks great, but I don't think he's going to hold onto this look for much longer. If he does, it will likely be due to some type of cosmetic treatment, not his vegan diet.

Cynicism. You believe that because you are late 30s and already show some deterioration that he must. Vegan diets have been clinically shown to lower IGF-1, which has been associated with a plethora of health downfalls. Consider that. There are several other people on vegan/raw food diets who look good for their age.

The main reasons I show signs of deterioration outward and inward are stress(beginning back to when I was a child), excessive sun exposure, excessive drinking, many periods in which I was very sleep deprived, and the obvious one-my age. Take away all these, and I would look like one extremely young 37 year old. Most people that meet me for the first time think I'm in between 29 and 32. Some people actually think I'm as young as 26.

Dude, take a very close look at the area to the side of and below Leto's mouth in the video. Jowl may not have been the right word for it, but I bet it was not as pronounced 5 or 10 years ago.