100 replies to this topic

[Sillewater]

Also MR only get 163.7mg of choline per day while the RDA is around 600mg, maybe that's why.

One other reason I like CDP-Choline after looking through some of the papers on my computer is that Uridine, Choline, and DHA together increase synaptic membranes and dendritic spines (at least in rats), and CDP-choline increases both uridine and choline in humans:

Biochem Pharmacol. 2000 Oct 1;60(7):989-92.
Effect of oral CDP-choline on plasma choline and uridine levels in humans.
Wurtman RJ, Regan M, Ulus I, Yu L.

Department of Brain & Cognitive Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. dick@mit.edu
Twelve mildly hypertensive but otherwise normal fasting subjects received each of four treatments in random order: CDP-choline (citicoline; 500, 2000, and 4000 mg) or a placebo orally at 8:00 a.m. on four different treatment days. Eleven plasma samples from each subject, obtained just prior to treatment (8:00 a.m.) and 1-12 hr thereafter, were assayed for choline, cytidine, and uridine. Fasting terminated at noon with consumption of a light lunch that contained about 100 mg choline. Plasma choline exhibited dose-related increases in peak values and areas under the curves (AUCs), remaining significantly elevated, after each of the three doses, for 5, 8, and 10 hr, respectively. Plasma uridine was elevated significantly for 5-6 hr after all three doses, increasing by as much as 70-90% after the 500 mg dose, and by 100-120% after the 2000 mg dose. No further increase was noted when the dose was raised from 2000 to 4000 mg. Plasma cytidine was not reliably detectable, since it was less than twice blank, or less than 100 nM, at all of the doses. Uridine is known to enter the brain and to be converted to UTP; moreover, we found that uridine was converted directly to CTP in neuron-derived PC-12 cells. Hence, it seems likely that the circulating substrates through which oral citicoline increases membrane phosphatide synthesis in the brains of humans involve uridine and choline, and not cytidine and choline as in rats.

PMID: 10974208 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I have no idea if this is good, but it sounds good for now.

Edited by Sillewater, 07 January 2010 - 07:45 AM.

[vines]

Another thing to consider is that it might be cheaper to buy uridine and choline separately, though I have no idea how much uridine:choline is actually in CDP-Choline, nor have I seen uridine itself offered as a stand-alone product.

[kismet]

I would like to read more studies regarding safety. Especially, I'd like to know if recent meta-analyses confirm the superb safety and same rate of side-effects compared to placebo (but different types of adverse events)

Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 2009 Apr;31(3):171-6.
Efficacy and safety of oral citicoline in acute ischemic stroke: drug surveillance study in 4,191 cases. Cho et al.
Side-effects are not qualified in the abstract, maybe the full is more telling.

---

and either of those reviews


Rev Neurol Dis. 2008 Fall;5(4):167-77.
Citicoline: update on a promising and widely available agent for neuroprotection and neurorepair.
Saver JL.

or this:

http://informahealth...460440902835475

or any other more current analysis

Anyone got access?

EDIT: reading some toxicity and safety studies I really do think 500mg *may* be a more prudent dose...

EDIT2: any idea on once vs twice daily dosing? I guess the studies were performed using once daily dosing, but citicoline pharmakokinetics lend themselves to twice daily dosing (see also the op. cit. study Biochem Pharmacol. 2000 Oct 1;60(7):989-92.)

Edited by kismet, 10 February 2010 - 07:56 PM.

[Sillewater]

Current Lipid Profile:

Total Cholesterol: 5.47mmol/L (211mg/dL)
LDL (Friedwald): 3.50mmol/L (135mg/dL)
LDL (Iranian):2.7mmol/L (104mg/dL)
Triglycerides: 0.51mmol/L (45mg/dL)
ApoB: 0.86g/L (86mg/dL)

Glucose Fasting: 4.5mmol/L (81mg/dL)
HbA1c: 4.1%

Supposed to get Lp(a) but the results haven't come out yet.

I suspect the HbA1c decreased because I always include fats in my meals, but I was also taking P5P before the blood was drawn so that may have an effect.

[Sillewater]

Forgot HDL: 1.74mmol/l (67mg/dl)

[Sillewater]

Multi-vitamin
Vitamin D3 (4000IU)
Vitamin K2 - MK7(90mcg)/MK4(5mg) Alternate weeks)
Magnesium Citrate (200mg) (half in morning half at night)

Nootropic
Acetyl-L-Carnitine (250mg)
Flax Seed Oil (6g)/Fish Oil (2g O-3) (Alternate weeks)
Lithium Orotate (1mg/day)

Other
Resveratrol (250mg)
IP-6 (As needed to reach 1.5g per day)
Glycine 1g (experimenting on sleep quality)

Post-Prandial Protection (20 min before major meal)
Arginine and Lysine (500mg/500mg respectively)
Beta-Alanine (2g)
Taurine (500mg)

Foods Eaten Daily (kinda like supplements)
Green Tea Powder
Astralagus Root Powder
Cinnamon Tea
Blueberries
Garlic
Ginger

Attached is my Nutritional Profile for one day. I haven't been tracking for a while, but most days its like this and compared to my daily tracking a couple of months ago the averages are very similiar to this days one.


Report generated by CRON-o-Meter v0.9.7

Nutrition Summary for March 20, 2010

General (77%)

Energy	2028.0	kcal	71%
Protein	94.6	g	169%
Carbs	124.5	g	96%
Fiber	27.8	g	73%
Starch	0.5	g
Sugars	26.5	g
Fat	133.1	g	205%
Alcohol	0.0	g
Caffeine	6.4	mg
Water	921.2	g	25%
Ash	10.6	g
Vitamins (83%)
Vitamin A	23547.9	IU	785%
Retinol	33.1	µg
Alpha-carotene	2947.2	µg
Beta-carotene	12590.0	µg
Beta-cryptoxanthin	0.1	µg
Lycopene	54.0	µg
Lutein+Zeaxanthin	3683.6	µg
Folate	579.6	µg	145%
B1 (Thiamine)	1.5	mg	121%
B2 (Riboflavin)	1.4	mg	104%
B3 (Niacin)	17.4	mg	109%
B5 (Pantothenic Acid)	4.9	mg	97%
B6 (Pyridoxine)	2.4	mg	185%
B12 (Cyanocobalamin)	6.6	µg	276%
Vitamin C	159.5	mg	177%
Vitamin D	6.0	IU	3%
Vitamin E	14.3	mg	95%
Beta Tocopherol	0.1	mg
Delta Tocopherol	0.2	mg
Gamma Tocopherol	8.1	mg
Vitamin K	411.8	µg	343%
Biotin	0.0	µg	0%
Choline	392.7	mg	71%
Minerals (83%)
Calcium	591.8	mg	59%
Chromium	0.0	µg	0%
Copper	1.7	mg	187%
Fluoride	153.4	µg	4%
Iron	17.0	mg	213%
Magnesium	355.7	mg	89%
Manganese	8.3	mg	361%
Phosphorus	1354.1	mg	193%
Potassium	3224.0	mg	69%
Selenium	73.3	µg	133%
Sodium	1806.8	mg	120%
Zinc	21.8	mg	198%
Lipids (72%)
Saturated	56.6	g	283%
Monounsaturated	56.0	g
Polyunsaturated	11.8	g
Omega-3	0.9	g	58%
Omega-6	10.7	g	63%
Trans-Fats	1.9	g
Cholesterol	195.1	mg	65%
Phytosterol	152.7	mg

My Grandfathers Anti-Dementia?? (waiting on the diagnosis for his condition) (80 years old)

Pour some MCT oil into blender
Add 500mg resveratrol
Blend for 2 minutes
Add Coconut Milk and some water, then add curcumin and blend for another 2 minutes
Add Lecithin Granules and Protein Powder and blend for another 2 minutes
Add some:

• Huperzine A
• Cinnamon Water Extract (self-made)
• Magnesium Citrate
• Whey Protein Isolate
• Lithium Orotate
• Methylene Blue (1mg)

Blend it all up for another 2 minutes.

He has had good results with this. I think the resveratrol helped him lose some weight and he hasn't been as confused as usual and much more active. Quite amazing actually. Thinking of obtaining some memantine or galantamine but theses are prescription in Canada and the doctor hasn't gotten back to us yet about the diagnosis.
Edit: to correct line breaks

Edited by Sillewater, 30 March 2010 - 08:33 PM.

[e Volution]

Care to elaborate on the multivitamin brand and dosage? Am I right in assuming you take it because your average diet (which you dont track religiously) comes up slightly short on vitamins and minerals, so taking it is really just the typical insurance policy reasoning... ? And do you take it everyday or occasionally (as in are you more concerned about intakes over say a week rather than every day)?

Also any chance you could share your top 5 or 10 foods you consume? Cheers!

[Sillewater]

Sorry I didn't make it more clear, the first term after each linebreak is just like a category where I put things under on my spreadsheet for easier tracking. So I don't actually take a multivitamin but things like vitamin D3 and k2 and magnesium are under that heading. I used to track my diet very very closely and everyday it turns out to be very similiar to what I posted before (yea, I agree multivitamins are pretty much useless, except maybe the Imminst one that is about to come out).

IMO: there are no good multi's right now, and I would much rather supplement individually anyways, prob cheaper and you can better control dosages.

I'll add my top foods consumed later (at work right now).

oops, double post. Could someone delete this one.

Edited by Sillewater, 31 March 2010 - 06:04 PM.

[Sillewater]

Sorry I didn't make it more clear, the first term after each linebreak is just like a category where I put things under on my spreadsheet for easier tracking. So I don't actually take a multivitamin but things like vitamin D3 and k2 and magnesium are under that heading. I used to track my diet very very closely and everyday it turns out to be very similiar to what I posted before (yea, I agree multivitamins are pretty much useless, except maybe the Imminst one that is about to come out).

IMO: there are no good multi's right now, and I would much rather supplement individually anyways, prob cheaper and you can better control dosages.

I'll add my top foods consumed later (at work right now).

Also to clarify I do not take taurine and beta-alanine/carnosine together. I think they might compete for absorption with each other.

Also I take 500mg each of lysine and arginine because this is what I found blocks the effects of arginines NO production ability (because I want to avoid that over the long-term). I test this by consuming these two together on an empty stomach then testing through *cough cough erections (with my gf of course).

I have found that capsules and tablets and caplets have differing effects on an empty stomach but I think on a full one they may be the same.

[e Volution]

Thanks Sillewater.... What are your thoughts then on your daily diet only getting for instance 59% Ca, 69% Potassium, but then 361% Manganese? I guess I am interested in your stance on regular intakes and RDAs and such (maybe I should just create a thread for this). Or do these figures not include your bone broths which no doubt add to your vitamin & mineral intake across the board?

Why did you drop the Wine Concentrate (Wine Rx)? I thought it was a pretty solid supplement and also could add to your Post-Prandial Protection

[Sillewater]

First top consumed foods:

Broccoli
Olive Oil
Nuts (Pistachio/Cashews/Macadamia Nuts)
Garlic (mashed with vinegar, sesame oil, and soy sauce)
99% Dark Chocolate Mashed with Cashews (yummy)
Ginger
Beef/Beef Fat
Blueberries
Curry Powder
Brown Rice/White Rice

Hmm regarding RDA's. I haven't researched it too deeply other than reading about magnesium and calcium intake. Regarding the others I dont worry too much, first because MR seems to consume even higher amounts and most amounts are lower than the UL recommended by the IOM. Too do the in depth research I would have to reach the IOM's books on nutrition which I have not done my due diligence on.

Regarding potassium, I use half-and-half so I reach the RDA (gotta watch out for kidney stones on a low-carb diet).

Now to the calcium and magnesium. There seems to be a lot of research regarding these two minerals however I was directed towards two papers by Krillin (who used to roam these forums):

Carcinogenesis. 2005 May;26(5):991-9. Epub 2005 Feb 10.
Low intake of calcium, folate, nicotinic acid, vitamin E, retinol, beta-carotene and high intake of pantothenic acid, biotin and riboflavin are significantly associated with increased genome instability--results from a dietary intake and micronucleus index survey in South Australia.

Best genome stability: [PMID: 15705599]
calcium ≥1249.56 mg/day
niacin ≥25.73 mg/day
folate ≥256.50 mcg/day
retinol ≥457.48 mcg/day (1525 IU/day)
E ≥10.72 mg/day (16 IU/day)
beta carotene 4161.33–6433.12 mcg/day
B2 ≤1.84 mg/day
B5 ≤4.59 mg/day
biotin ≤18.86 mcg/day

Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Sep;86(3):743-51.
The relation of magnesium and calcium intakes and a genetic polymorphism in the magnesium transporter to colorectal neoplasia risk.

Magnesium > 368 mg/day and Ca/Mg < 2.78

I know the evidence seems kinda weak but its the best I have to go on for now. And for men especially I would rather keep my calcium intake on the low end which is around 600mg/day. (btw I'm sure my bone broth brings some more calcium into my diet. The only problem is I don't know how much.)

edit: Forgot about the WineRx. It's a great supplement however due to budgeting reasons I would rather spend it on pure resveratrol. Not only am I supplementing my grandfather on it but I would like to try it myself. The benefits/risk of resveratrol seems pretty high to me (I know kismet will disagree).

Edited by Sillewater, 01 April 2010 - 06:03 AM.

[Logan]

Sorry I didn't make it more clear, the first term after each linebreak is just like a category where I put things under on my spreadsheet for easier tracking. So I don't actually take a multivitamin but things like vitamin D3 and k2 and magnesium are under that heading. I used to track my diet very very closely and everyday it turns out to be very similiar to what I posted before (yea, I agree multivitamins are pretty much useless, except maybe the Imminst one that is about to come out).

IMO: there are no good multi's right now, and I would much rather supplement individually anyways, prob cheaper and you can better control dosages.

I'll add my top foods consumed later (at work right now).

Also to clarify I do not take taurine and beta-alanine/carnosine together. I think they might compete for absorption with each other.

Also I take 500mg each of lysine and arginine because this is what I found blocks the effects of arginines NO production ability (because I want to avoid that over the long-term). I test this by consuming these two together on an empty stomach then testing through *cough cough erections (with my gf of course).

I have found that capsules and tablets and caplets have differing effects on an empty stomach but I think on a full one they may be the same.

Why are you taking arginine if you don't mind my asking?

[Sillewater]

Why are you taking arginine if you don't mind my asking?

It was mentioned on the forums before as being a glycation inhibitor. I can't find the post but MR refers to the study in his posted regimen here. References 6-12.

Considering the risks of P5P, pyridoxamine, benfotiamine, etc... These two amino acids seem fairly safe.

[Sillewater]

Just wanted to add an update. I have been playing around with my diet just a bit, and this is what it looks like now (I supplement with whey occasionally and some hemp protein, avg protein intake usually reaches 90-100g.)

===========================================
Nutrition Summary for May 10, 2010
Report generated by CRON-o-Meter v0.9.7
===========================================

General (81%)
===========================================
Energy | 2023.2 kcal 70%
Protein | 56.1 g 100%
Carbs | 145.7 g 112%
Fiber | 31.3 g 82%
Fat | 140.5 g 216%
Water | 1168.4 g 32%

Vitamins (82%)
===========================================
Vitamin A | 15296.0 IU 510%
Folate | 624.1 µg 156%
B1 (Thiamine) | 0.9 mg 74%
B2 (Riboflavin) | 1.6 mg 123%
B3 (Niacin) | 15.9 mg 99%
B5 (Pantothenic Acid)| 6.2 mg 125%
B6 (Pyridoxine) | 2.5 mg 195%
B12 (Cyanocobalamin) | 18.8 µg 785%
Vitamin C | 293.8 mg 326%
Vitamin D | 49.1 IU 25%
Vitamin E | 12.3 mg 82%
Vitamin K | 531.4 µg 443%
Biotin | 0.0 µg 0%
Choline | 372.9 mg 68%

Minerals (83%)
===========================================
Calcium | 525.0 mg 52%
Chromium | 0.0 µg 0%
Copper | 3.5 mg 386%
Iron | 17.8 mg 222%
Magnesium | 276.7 mg 69%
Manganese | 7.0 mg 305%
Phosphorus | 1042.2 mg 149%
Potassium | 4284.1 mg 91%
Selenium | 55.2 µg 100%
Sodium | 1955.9 mg 130%
Zinc | 13.2 mg 120%

Lipids (72%)
===========================================
Saturated | 74.8 g 374%
Omega-3 | 1.1 g 68%
Omega-6 | 3.5 g 20%
Cholesterol | 450.8 mg 150%



As far as supplementation goes, I'm still trying to cut down the budget but I'm also finding some important stuff to add. I've been researching about probiotics but haven't decided if I actually need it yet. I'm still reading about calcium levels and such, and I haven't began looking into manganese (but my hunch is that the manganese isn't that important right now). Its just an estimate but I think my occasional bone-marrow soup and bone-marrow eating brings up calcium but this topic is so complex I can't wrap my head around it (I think I'll leave it up to Kismet ).

[Sillewater]

Dropped the butter. Using coconut oil instead.

[e Volution]

Dropped the butter. Using coconut oil instead.

Glyciation concerns?

[Sillewater]

Basically, but I've been using more coconut milk, coconut oil, and palm oil because I have been trying to decrease PUFA's to below 4% of caloric intake (which include omega 3's). There's some theory about b6 replacing the need for EFA's but I'd rather not go there without more research.

[Skötkonung]

Have you thought about taking an olive leaf extract (one that contains high amounts of oleuropein and hydroxytyrosol) to lower / prevent oxidation of your LDL and total cholesterol? Would this be an optimization of the lipid profile?

Here are some studies that make an olive leaf extract a cogent addition to one's supplement regimen:

Oleuropein protects low density lipoprotein from oxidation

Protective effect of oleuropein, an olive oil biophenol, on low density lipoprotein oxidizability

Supplementation of Plasma with Olive Oil Phenols and Extracts: Influence on LDL Oxidation

Effect of consumption of phenols from olives and extra virgin olive oil on LDL oxidizability in healthy humans

[Effect of phenolic compounds of virgin olive oil on LDL oxidation resistance]

[Skötkonung]

Also, is there a reason why you aren't taking glisodin?

[Sillewater]

Thanks for the olive leaf extract studies, I'll look over them. But I doubt I'll take it, I'd rather get it from olive oil and lower my LDL number.

Regarding glisodin. I remember researching it a year ago and even though the studies seemed very very impressive with regards to its ability to prevent oxidation I'd still decided not to take it because of the negative antioxidant studies and based on some mechanistic speculation.

IMO, oxidation is definitely a bad things (like mitochondrial membrane oxidation) however radical production is not a bad thing (e.g. hormesis, signalling). So I would rather decrease the oxidation instead of the radical production. I hope to achieve this by lowering PUFA's (influence from Ray Peat which is something I started a while ago) but mainly reading MR's post of flax seed a while ago on CR his reasoning makes sense that its the number of double bonds that we should be aware of (because a phospholipid's structure is fixed). Anyways going off track. So imo glisodin blocks the free radical production signalling.

This is just my thought, I was wondering what you thought. Do you take glisodin?

Also this study popped up in my crawler:

Exp Gerontol. 2010 Aug;45(7-8):525-32. Epub 2010 Jan 18.
Increasing mitochondrial superoxide dismutase abundance leads to impairments in protein quality control and ROS scavenging systems and to lifespan shortening.
Zintel S, Schwitalla D, Luce K, Hamann A, Osiewacz HD.

Institute of Molecular Biosciences and Cluster of Excellence Macromolecular Complexes, Department of Biosciences, J.W. Goethe-University, Max-von-Laue-Strasse 9, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.
Abstract
The fungal aging model Podospora anserina contains three superoxide dismutases (SODs) in different cellular compartments. While PaSOD1 represents the Cu/Zn isoform located in the cytoplasm and in the mitochondrial inter-membrane space, PaSOD2 localizes to the perinuclear ER. PaSOD3, a protein with a manganese binding domain and a mitochondrial targeting sequence (MTS) is the mitochondrial SOD. Over-expression of PaSod3 leads to lifespan reduction and increased sensitivity against paraquat and hydrogen peroxide. The negative effects of PaSod3 over-expression correlate with a strong reduction in the abundance of mitochondrial peroxiredoxin, PaPRX1, and the matrix protease PaCLPP disclosing impairments of mitochondrial quality control and ROS scavenging pathways in PaSod3 over-expressors. Deletion of PaSod3 leads to increased paraquat sensitivity while hydrogen peroxide sensitivity and lifespan are not significantly changed when compared to the wild-type strain. These latter characteristics are unexpected and challenge the 'mitochondrial free radical theory of aging'. Copyright © 2010 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

PMID: 20080171 [PubMed - in process]

I know its in fungi but hey makes sense.

Edited by Sillewater, 04 June 2010 - 05:43 AM.

[Sillewater]

I'll also update my regimen.

Morning
Vitamin A (2500IU) (helps with keratosis pilaris)
Vitamin D3 (4000IU)
Methylcobalamin (1mg sublingual)
ALCAR (250mg)
Beta-Alanine (2g)
IP6 (750mg) plan on getting ferritin test soon

Evening
Na-R-Alpha Lipoic Acid (100mg) w/meal
Taurine (500mg) w/meal
Flax Seed Oil (3g)
Vitamin K2 (1mg MK-4 or 90mcg MK-7)

Before Sleep
Lithium Orotate (1.25mg)
Magnesium Citrate (150mg)

On fasting days,
I drink some coffee with some ALCAR (500mg). I originally took the IP6 on fasting days but based on the studies I posted here. I'd rather keep it off my autophagy days.

[Skötkonung]

How do you intend to lower PUFAs while taking in high amounts of olive oil? You're getting about 2g of n-6 per tablespoon. And do you feel you can get enough oleuropein to prevent LDL oxidation without simultaneously consuming high amounts of PUFA? I'm not convinced bio-availability is that great.

I've been revisiting supplements again and started on a low dose of glisodin in the morning (I exercise in the evenings). You are probably further ahead of me on supplements research, so maybe you can provide some insight on my current regimen:

- Fish oil
- Multivitamin (to cover any nutritional gaps)
- Glisodin
- Quercetin
- Bromelain
- Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) w/ Glucosamine HCI
- Vitamin D3
- Turmeric with Bioperine
- Olive leaf extract
- Grape seed extract (just picked some up today)
- Carnosine
- ALA / ALCAR
- ECGC

According to CRON-o-meter, I balance SFA with MUFA and get about 10% of my fat from PUFA. PUFA is nearly balanced between n-3 and n-6 sources. Most of my fat comes from pastured animal sources. Lard is balanced between MUFA and SFA and tends to have a favorable n-3/n-6 ratio when not a product of CAFOs.

Edited by Skötkonung, 04 June 2010 - 06:47 AM.

[Sillewater]

Kismet, niner, funk would probably be better suited to critique this but i'll give you my ideas.

- Fish oil
- Multivitamin (to cover any nutritional gaps)
I can't find the post exactly but there was one criticizing multivitamins and it was very well research (I think it was by someone with the username AORSupport, but I still can't find it), anyways, there was speculation like copper and iron reacting with vitamin C destroying b12 creating a dangerous metabolite, calcium competing with magnesium, phytochemicals binding minerals, too much b-vitamins etc... So I share kismets view that multi's are unnecessary. Stick to Cron-O-Meter. I understand that certain minerals can't be tracked, like vanadium, chromium (well it can be tracked just takes a lot more work) but in that case I would rather just take my chances with a varied diet
- Glisodin
I outlined my reasoning for not taking glisodin and other antioxidants in my post above (don't want to inhibit signalling/hormesis)
- Quercetin
Been thinking of trying this but haven't done enough research
- Bromelain
- Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) w/Glucosamine HCI
- Vitamin D3
- Turmeric with Bioperine
As far as I know bioperine does increase bioavailability but it does so by inhibiting glucuronidation enzymes, unless your consuming a toxin free diet I would ditch the bioperine and stick with curry spice with some pepper
- Olive leaf extract
Doesn't this have antibacterial properties too?
- Grape seed extract (just picked some up today)
- Carnosine
- ALA / ALCAR
- ECGC
I would rather get it from green tea but ECGC supplement should be fine

According to CRON-o-meter, I balance SFA with MUFA and get about 10% of my fat from PUFA. PUFA is nearly balanced between n-3 and n-6 sources. Most of my fat comes from pastured animal sources. Lard is balanced between MUFA and SFA and tends to have a favorable n-3/n-6 ratio when not a product of CAFOs.

Yea I have been thinking about that and playing around with Cron-O-Meter. For me SFA:MUFA is 1:1, with most of my MUFA's coming from olive oil. Currently my PUFA intake is currently between 4-5% which I am pretty content with now.

I'll have to do some more research on the oleupeurin/hydroxytyrosol before I decide to take a supplement containing it.

[Skötkonung]

http://www.imminst.o...amp;#entry43026

Hmm, that is frightening that it could compromise the filtering capability of the liver. It's a shame because turmeric has such low bio-availability.

I'm curious though... what is the threshold for piperine to interfere with the liver? For instance, this study indicates the effect you were describing, but how does guinea pigs at that dosage translate to effects in humans?

http://jpet.aspetjou...236/2/488.short

Edit:
I take ECGC because I don't think I could consume the equivalent green tea in a day.

[Sillewater]

I have no idea how to translate the guinea pig dosages however piperine does work in humans because it increases absorption of curcumin so it interferes with glucuronidation and that's imo enough to not take it (unless you have cancer and need the high dosages of curcumin). The epidemiological evidence shows that intake of curry spice is enough to have an effect without an piperine supplement.

[e Volution]

Hey Sillewater, what eating and fasting schedule have you settled upon (or currently experimenting with) in a daily/weekly setting? Cheers...

[Sillewater]

Hey Sillewater, what eating and fasting schedule have you settled upon (or currently experimenting with) in a daily/weekly setting? Cheers...

Well it's fairly random but minimum its usually twice a week. I've developed a knack for estimating calories (practice with Cron-O-Meter) so I usually fast such that every 48hrs my caloric intake is about 10% below maintenance (which really isn't a lot but it helps me maintain my 9-10% bodyfat). So some days I might over-eat on one day and I fast the other day. But in terms of a set schedule I usually fast every third day. In general I do 20 minutes of workout everyday, 10min cardio (on the bike) and 10min resistance.

On my to-do list is to study the effects of exercise on GH/IGF1 while fasted but for now that's my schedule.

[Sillewater]

I also want to clarify about the caloric intake. I say 10% under maintenance (but what dose that really mean). Well for me its just an arbitrary number that I have come up with over the years where I maintain my total weight (the average of a 7 pound range I measure over 4 weeks) and 10% body fat. So its not exactly like the AL intake of mice used in studies (because its easier to tell because they are all genetic clones).

[e Volution]

Hope you don't mind me quoting you from another thread:

Well my fasts never go beyond 24 hours.At 24 hours my fbg is ~4.4 (80). Recently I have cut my fast shorter by 1 hour. Basically 1 hour before I eat my dinner I eat small amounts of food, some carbs (~15g) and protein (~15g) [usually just a salad with lean chicken breast, the carbs come from oats or whatever I feel like] which not only satiates my appetite for dinner but maybe helps return insulin sensitivity to your fat and muscle cells before consuming a large meal.

I would love to hear about any more little tweaks or things you are doing re eating and fasting. Do you always do this? Have you noticed any difference in body composition, energy, or physical performance since doing this pre-meal meal? Also in the thread you mentioned you take ALCAR in the morning fasted, then ALA with your meal that breaks the fast, any chance you could elaborate on this also? Cheers

[Sillewater]

Yea I always do this. Its a very easy way to decrease your caloric intake for the day. When I first started fasting I would feast at dinner (and it would become very uncomfortable) so I started having these small pre-meal meals, and it definitely helped (and it lowered caloric intake overall fairly well). So before the small meal I do some resistance exercise. Hopefully the 23 hours of fasting induces insulin resistance and the 10-min of resistance exercise (no breaks) increases the insulin sensitivity of the muscles (however the adipocytes are still insulin resistant, also the more blood-flow to the muscles should also help, again all speculation) helping with body composition. Since insulin levels usually peak one hour after starting a meal I finish the rest of my dinner 1 hour after starting the pre-meal.

With the bigger meal I take R+Alpha Lipoic acid before hand:

Arch Biochem Biophys. 2009 May 1;485(1):63-71. Epub 2009 Feb 20.Lipoic acid improves hypertriglyceridemia by stimulating triacylglycerol clearance and downregulating liver triacylglycerol secretion.Butler JA, Hagen TM, Moreau R.Linus Pauling Institute, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331, USA.

Anyways I've been on bodybuilding forums long enough (never quite into the whole thing though) to know that Alpha Lipoic acid helps with body composition and glucose disposal. From anecdotal evidence it seems that racemic ALA makes the muscles "fuller" than R+ALA, and I've noticed the same thing too. However considering Geronova's write-up and the fact that our body has no use (as far as I can tell) for S-ALA I'll stick with the R form. There was some speculation that the S form caused the higher homocysteine levels, but hey for all we know that's one of the ways ALA works.

With the ALCAR just speculation on my part. Increases lipid oxidation (maybe). I also take caffeine in the morning too (increases insulin resistance, more lipolysis?). I'll elaborate on these later when I do more research. Beyond that I just keep my glycogen stores low (but that may be bad for muscle protein synthesis, which is what I'm trying to avoid).

Edited by Sillewater, 16 July 2010 - 08:38 AM.