45 replies to this topic

[Ben Simon]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.

I don't know if Im breaking some kind of rule here about ad hominem attacks... but uh, that post was truly the work of an asshole.

[abolitionist]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.

I don't know if Im breaking some kind of rule here about ad hominem attacks... but uh, that post was truly the work of an asshole.

it's true that relative status doesn't define subjective status

however, it can help your well being to observe yourself as being in better position than others

i think it's healthy and productive to let out the sentiment you have and create this post

it's just an issue then of staying productive and not dwelling on the objectified pain you feel

[brokenportal]

How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

Life goes on, but individuals come and go. C'est la vie.

No offense, but this kind of argument irritates me. Stating the obvious doesn't validate death or invalidate my feelings about it.

The rivers are full of crocodile nasties
and He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns ---
the King on His sunset lies waiting for dawn
to light up His Jungle
as the play is resumed.
The monkeys seem willing to strike up the tune.

-- Bungle in the Jungle, Jethro Tull

Again, just because some poet makes light of the human condition doesn't mean that I should.

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it". Well, if you'd rather just get over it, good for you (you'll probably be happier for it). But, as for me, I'm not going to just tolerate the loss of my very existence. I can't, I won't, and I shouldn't have to.

Exactly. A lot of people seem to have that sentiment, "Just get over it, life is a groovy paradise that you cant control man, dying is the way of the great circle my naive friend, the dirt is our cosmic calling, we are all a great energy." I dont think Connor means exactly that, but a lot of people do.

When people say stuff like that, its a lot like saying, "...well, we are stuck in this torture chamber, but thats the way of the cosmos man, everybody gets trapped in a torture chamber, thats what you have to do, just accept it, trying to get out just means your going against the torture chambers will, your ignorant, you cant close your chapter if you dont die in an iron maiden...." etc.. etc... etc...

[brokenportal]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.

I don't know if Im breaking some kind of rule here about ad hominem attacks... but uh, that post was truly the work of an asshole.

it's true that relative status doesn't define subjective status

however, it can help your well being to observe yourself as being in better position than others

i think it's healthy and productive to let out the sentiment you have and create this post

it's just an issue then of staying productive and not dwelling on the objectified pain you feel

Thats true, you dont want to dwell to the point that it takes up your time and your not productive, but I and many I imagine, would rather have a world of people dwelling on the problem and being unproductive than to not be dwelling on the problem and being counter productive, or in other words, "rage, rage against the dying of the light!"

A world that acknowlegdes the problem will inspire more action. Thats not to say though that cyborgdreamer isnt productive as well as raging. I think a combination of both is the best mixture, fuel and fire.

[cyborgdreamer]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.

All conscious beings have infinite value, and none of us deserve to die against our wills. Yes, lots of people have shorter and more painful lives than I do; that's part of the tragedy! Just because some people choose to deal with their emotions differently, doesn't mean that nobody should ever express themselves. I honestly find it hurtful that you would belittle my feelings about something I find so horrifying. Please be more respectful in the future.

[brokenportal]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.

All conscious beings have infinite value, and none of us deserve to die against our wills. Yes, lots of people have shorter and more painful lives than I do; that's part of the tragedy! Just because some people choose to deal with their emotions differently, doesn't mean that nobody should ever express themselves. I honestly find it hurtful that you would belittle my feelings about something I find so horrifying. Please be more respectful in the future.

It seems to me hes just trying to give you perspective to make you feel better. When Im feeling down, I think about how at a different place in time I may have been caught up in a concentration camp, I instantly feel 99% better every time.

This reminds me of the quote, "If we were all to put our troubles into a big pile and have everybody take out an equal share, most of us would be content to take back our own."

Although, in the perspective that you mention it here, the fact that we are all dying of aging, taming your anger is a bad idea. Cast aside all petty anger and focus on the one that makes a difference. For example, if we were in a concentration camp, we would not be well advised to "get over it, there are many worse off than us." We would be well off to rage against our captors.

Well, aging renders the entire planet a concentration camp. Compared to the wonders and the glories that await us, we are suffering. To watch our relatives and friends die, and with dreams unfulfilled, in a universe and exisence that we havent even begun to scratch the surface of in terms of discover and purpose and everything else, is tragic to an infinite degree. Dying of cancer at a young age may be x amount worse than dying of aging at an average age, but dying of aging compared to the seeming infinity that awaits all of humanity is an infinite amount worse.

In other words, the schism between dying young of cancer and dying of aging is moot compared to the schism between dying of aging and dying of something hundreds of thousands of years from now. Hence, your rage is well placed and needed.

Edited by brokenportal, 23 April 2009 - 06:58 PM.

[cyborgdreamer]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.

All conscious beings have infinite value, and none of us deserve to die against our wills. Yes, lots of people have shorter and more painful lives than I do; that's part of the tragedy! Just because some people choose to deal with their emotions differently, doesn't mean that nobody should ever express themselves. I honestly find it hurtful that you would belittle my feelings about something I find so horrifying. Please be more respectful in the future.

It seems to me hes just trying to give you perspective to make you feel better. When Im feeling down, I think about how at a different place in time I may have been caught up in a concentration camp, I instantly feel 99% better every time.

I can understand why that might help you. Personally, when I'm already upset, thinking about all the other problems in the world generally makes me feel worse.

[williamhessian]

I hate the human condition so much it hurts! I'm sick of being just another piece of matter for the universe to step on; a thing that can suffer and die and be trapped by the suffocating limitations of the human mind and body. It makes me want to throw up. Against all reason, I still hope that I'll wake up from this nightmare because I just can't fathom a world this horrible. But every time I open my eyes it's still here; a world where death exists. How can the universe limit thinking, feeling beings the same as mindless chunks of matter? How can it create life just to destroy it? How can anything be so evil, so twisted, so ruthlessly indifferent?!

awesome post. this is the passion i enjoy on imminst forums.

i personally think there is much more reason behind death and our existence. Even if it is to simply breed better version of ourselves. Having children, and giving them the best genetics and knowledge will change the world one way or another. pain is important for us to understand limitation and solve problems. we are designed to be bound to this earth, eating, sleeping, breathing so we have to save it. We are the caretakers of the planet and we must do our job, or else pain and death will no doubt follow.

the funny thing is, immortality and caretaking go hand in hand with the planet. if we save the planet, we save ourselves. If we find a way to ensure the longevity or immortality of the earth, we in turn will become immortal.

Edited by williamhessian, 23 April 2009 - 11:30 PM.

[brokenportal]

It seems to me hes just trying to give you perspective to make you feel better. When Im feeling down, I think about how at a different place in time I may have been caught up in a concentration camp, I instantly feel 99% better every time.

I can understand why that might help you. Personally, when I'm already upset, thinking about all the other problems in the world generally makes me feel worse.

Right, when I think about the world in terms of the parts about it that suck in general then it makes me feel worse too. When I imagine all the torture that has ever gone on and continues to go on I have to instantly shake that thought out of my head lest it twist my stomach for example.

But when I think about a case or two in terms of how I could be in those shoes, then it makes me feel better.

this is the passion i enjoy on imminst forums.

Me too. Ide like to see a much better balance between the equations and the political correctness, and the passion and the urgency. Indifference is another of our opponents. Humanity is built for indifference. It helps spare us horror and pain and stuff like that, we can work to shake it off where neccessary though, like by engaging in topics like this, and by doing things like not ignoring the death. I drive through cemetaries a lot to get my blood boiling, to get angry, to feel the desire to help save more people that would other wise have their lives cut short and end up in these big quite fields of chiseled stones and trees. There is a universe filled with utter mystery continuing to unfold before us here indefinitely. This is no time to let happenstance make plans for us to lay beneath the ground with marble stones at our heads listening eternally to the oblivion of wasted eons.

[bacopa]

Thanks for understanding, everyone. I still hate the human condition (and I always will unless/until we eliminate involuntary death, suffering, and limitation). But it's nice to know there are other people who won't just plug their ears aHnd pretend it's okay.

What ANGERS me the most is the ambivelance and the pretending that death isn't lurking around the corner. I mean what's up with that? You can't even talk about death and disease in most social circles. Most people think that if we don't think about it it won't be a problem. Only atheists, and only a small fraction of a fraction of the population already, are willing to confront death and it's left up to are sorry asses to try to attempt to do anything about it! I just think about all those happy little christians who think that their lifespan is what God intended and that even though science is progressing at a rapid rate everything is as it should be. I want to hurt those people. How do religious people do it anyway? How do they KNOW that their religion is the right one when there are so many religions out there?

Anywho, I fear death and ratioacinate about it everyday practically. I'm petrified of cancer as my mom died of that over a year ago at the young age of 65. But Brokenportal is right. We have to consolidate as a movement and not just whine but do something about it. I hate unaugmented humans in particular. Our minds can, and often do, destroy us and cause all kinds of anguish and suffering. But do people care when we are mentally ill? No, they look the other way and pretend nothing is happening. It's not until someone gets terminal cancer that people start caring. Than all the flowers and useless hallmark cards come pouring in. But in the meantime people suffer and suffer and suffer with all kinds of anxieties and depressive mood states.

I'm with abolitionist. One day, hopefully in this millenium, we should be able to eradicate most, if not all, human suffering. That would be wonderful. And the other post about becoming smarter but having the mindset of Goerge Bush or Attila the Hun, or Hitler was great too. We can't just live longer without correcting the gross imperfections of our present horrific human state of mind. It's imperfect and unaugmented humans that create wars, feel hate, have prejiduce etc. We cannot continue to "plug our ears and pretend it's ok" as cyborgdreamer cleverly states.

Edited by dfowler, 09 June 2009 - 06:23 AM.

[Lauren]

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, but your post basically seems like a nice way of saying "get over it".

That's correct. The fact that you have the luxury of having the time to complain indicates that your lot in life probably isn't all that tough. Look at TFI; despite his rather dire situation you don't see him complaining. You're not facing anything that countless men and woman -- many, no doubt, considerably more talented, intelligent and worthy of immortality than you -- haven't also faced. Get over yourself; in the big scheme of things you are just not all that important -- none of us are.

All conscious beings have infinite value, and none of us deserve to die against our wills. Yes, lots of people have shorter and more painful lives than I do; that's part of the tragedy! Just because some people choose to deal with their emotions differently, doesn't mean that nobody should ever express themselves. I honestly find it hurtful that you would belittle my feelings about something I find so horrifying. Please be more respectful in the future.

I absolutely agree - just because people express themselves differently, does not mean that they should be silenced or senselessly ridiculed. What I've seen in this forum that honestly needs to go are these senseless, ad hominem attacks on people. I am just tired of all the condescension, as it detracts from any meaningingful discourse, thereby countermining the overall productivity of the group. If we cannot have these discussions civilly, then we
should not be having them in the first place. God, it's this senseless ridicule that make me despise the human condition. I, for one, am above all of this. I would expect any intelligent human being to be as well......


God, I'm sorry, I'm just so disappointed by all this misdirected criticism. Just please, for the sake of all things rational, stop this incessant mudslinging........

Edited by Lauren, 10 June 2009 - 10:39 AM.

[Lauren]

Believe me, I realize that death exists, and I accept it. The one thing in the world we should be afraid of is not dying, but instead not ever having lived

Oh my fucking god.

I cannot even begin to respond to the levels of idiocy in this thread, or forum.

Just get a friggin grip. All of you. You are you human. And being human is fucking awesome. Embrace it. Live your damned lives with gusto. You all must have sad, depressing lives, hating yourselves all the time. I pity, and loathe you.

You're a bunch of fucking nuts.

Realize that death IS, that you are human, and that you will all die.

God damn.

Fuck this forum and you freaks.

[Lauren]

This is absolutely the case - our society only seems to pay regard to concrete, physical illness rather than abstract, mental illness. They just sweep that shit under the rug, thereby further ostracizing those who are wading through the treacherous waters of such conditions. In order for us as a species to even consider such things as immortality and life extension, we have to cure the maladies of *both* physical and mental illness. And in order to cure them, we have to attempt to understand them. Again, all I ask for is understanding........

Thanks for understanding, everyone. I still hate the human condition (and I always will unless/until we eliminate involuntary death, suffering, and limitation). But it's nice to know there are other people who won't just plug their ears aHnd pretend it's okay.

What ANGERS me the most is the ambivelance and the pretending that death isn't lurking around the corner. I mean what's up with that? You can't even talk about death and disease in most social circles. Most people think that if we don't think about it it won't be a problem. Only atheists, and only a small fraction of a fraction of the population already, are willing to confront death and it's left up to are sorry asses to try to attempt to do anything about it! I just think about all those happy little christians who think that their lifespan is what God intended and that even though science is progressing at a rapid rate everything is as it should be. I want to hurt those people. How do religious people do it anyway? How do they KNOW that their religion is the right one when there are so many religions out there?

Anywho, I fear death and ratioacinate about it everyday practically. I'm petrified of cancer as my mom died of that over a year ago at the young age of 65. But Brokenportal is right. We have to consolidate as a movement and not just whine but do something about it. I hate unaugmented humans in particular. Our minds can, and often do, destroy us and cause all kinds of anguish and suffering. But do people care when we are mentally ill? No, they look the other way and pretend nothing is happening. It's not until someone gets terminal cancer that people start caring. Than all the flowers and useless hallmark cards come pouring in. But in the meantime people suffer and suffer and suffer with all kinds of anxieties and depressive mood states.

I'm with abolitionist. One day, hopefully in this millenium, we should be able to eradicate most, if not all, human suffering. That would be wonderful. And the other post about becoming smarter but having the mindset of Goerge Bush or Attila the Hun, or Hitler was great too. We can't just live longer without correcting the gross imperfections of our present horrific human state of mind. It's imperfect and unaugmented humans that create wars, feel hate, have prejiduce etc. We cannot continue to "plug our ears and pretend it's ok" as cyborgdreamer cleverly states.

[bacopa]

I'm going ahead with killing myself.......There's no fucking point in living anymore. It's not like anyone would give a shit if I'm gone. I am just an insignificant flickering in the electrical currents that connect all of life. I am nothing compared to all those stars in the galaxies that comprise the cosmos. I am a mere genetic accident.......I never should have been created. This is why I am actually following through with this, instead of just vacillating over it. I apologize for having been a burden and for taking up a perfectly good waste of space on the planet. I am just wasting my breath with this post, and with breathing in general. It's not like anyone gives a damn.......I have not impacted a single life; I am insignificant in the grand scheme of things......

This is absolutely the case - our society only seems to pay regard to concrete, physical illness rather than abstract, mental illness. They just sweep that shit under the rug, thereby further ostracizing those who are wading through the treacherous waters of such conditions. In order for us as a species to even consider such things as immortality and life extension, we have to cure the maladies of *both* physical and mental illness. And in order to cure them, we have to attempt to understand them. Again, all I ask for is understanding........

Thanks for understanding, everyone. I still hate the human condition (and I always will unless/until we eliminate involuntary death, suffering, and limitation). But it's nice to know there are other people who won't just plug their ears aHnd pretend it's okay.

What ANGERS me the most is the ambivelance and the pretending that death isn't lurking around the corner. I mean what's up with that? You can't even talk about death and disease in most social circles. Most people think that if we don't think about it it won't be a problem. Only atheists, and only a small fraction of a fraction of the population already, are willing to confront death and it's left up to are sorry asses to try to attempt to do anything about it! I just think about all those happy little christians who think that their lifespan is what God intended and that even though science is progressing at a rapid rate everything is as it should be. I want to hurt those people. How do religious people do it anyway? How do they KNOW that their religion is the right one when there are so many religions out there?

Anywho, I fear death and ratioacinate about it everyday practically. I'm petrified of cancer as my mom died of that over a year ago at the young age of 65. But Brokenportal is right. We have to consolidate as a movement and not just whine but do something about it. I hate unaugmented humans in particular. Our minds can, and often do, destroy us and cause all kinds of anguish and suffering. But do people care when we are mentally ill? No, they look the other way and pretend nothing is happening. It's not until someone gets terminal cancer that people start caring. Than all the flowers and useless hallmark cards come pouring in. But in the meantime people suffer and suffer and suffer with all kinds of anxieties and depressive mood states.

I'm with abolitionist. One day, hopefully in this millenium, we should be able to eradicate most, if not all, human suffering. That would be wonderful. And the other post about becoming smarter but having the mindset of Goerge Bush or Attila the Hun, or Hitler was great too. We can't just live longer without correcting the gross imperfections of our present horrific human state of mind. It's imperfect and unaugmented humans that create wars, feel hate, have prejiduce etc. We cannot continue to "plug our ears and pretend it's ok" as cyborgdreamer cleverly states.

Lauren, I responded to your thread in the free speech forum. I would urge you not to post this kind of thing in the regular forums.

[bacopa]

Oh my fucking god.

I cannot even begin to respond to the levels of idiocy in this thread, or forum.

Just get a friggin grip. All of you. You are you human. And being human is fucking awesome. Embrace it. Live your damned lives with gusto. You all must have sad, depressing lives, hating yourselves all the time. I pity, and loathe you.

You're a bunch of fucking nuts.

Realize that death IS, that you are human, and that you will all die.

God damn.

Fuck this forum and you freaks.

Grimm I don't want to call your argument silly or ignorant, but I will anyway You're on a website with over 8000 members all dedicated to DEFEATING death in our lifetimes or one day and you go on to say "you will all die?" This isn't even a valid argument since many of us would be really happy with living even 50 years longer; like me. This isn't to say I won't strive for an indefinite life span, but "any news is good news" to quote Steely Dan, in regards to the subject of life extension.

The only line I respect and agree with is the one that we are human and that is fucking awesome, however it often isn't and transhumanists want to better that condition.

Learn more about the methodology behind life extension than come back and say something a bit more intelligent and positive.

[erzebet]

i think all immortalists hate the human condition.
i do too. this is what motivated me to study science almost all day, and although on the inside i might look the same, i feel like i have overcome myself each year; i am more self-reliant now than 10 years ago and i will be even more in the future. i understand physics and biology much better and that allows me to tackle problems i couldn't have imagined years ago.
i have my moments when i am anxious that death exists, then i say myself that the purpose of my life is to be food for worms, and somehow that calms me for the moment, but after some days i get even more ambitious.