16 replies to this topic

[TianZi]

In Taiwan, there are no gyms of which I'm aware that have kettlebells. However, they seem to have become quite trendy in the US. From watching videos, I can't exactly grasp how using a kettlebell is different from using a dumbbell, except that it seems it be easier to life the KB (?) because of the handle and way it rests against the arm during a lift.

Could someone who's experienced in working out with both dumbbells and KB's please explain the advantages to a KB work-out as opposed to doing the same exercises with DB's?

[tunt01]

ive used both. in some cases i think a kettlebell is easier to grip/balance in the hand(s). the difference between having all the weight (against gravity) concentrated in one area, vs. in two areas at the ends of a small bar. sometimes there is a minor balancing act in managing the dumbell, which is controlled by your muscles (hands, forearm, etc.). this is avoided w/ a kettlebell. think about the difference between trying to deadlift 1 heavy weight between your legs vs. a full bench bar lengthwise. the act of managing that long bar in a deadlift is avoided with a kettlebell, which i think is nice in some areas.

you can achieve a lot of the same motions involved with kettlebells by working with a pulley-oriented weight system, which may have its own drawbacks because it is using a pulley system to impact the actual weight resistance.

Edited by prophets, 25 April 2009 - 04:32 PM.

[Shepard]

It's purely a weight position and distribution difference.

[TianZi]

It's purely a weight position and distribution difference.

Thanks guys. Both of your answers confirmed my prior thoughts about the merits of KB training.

[porthose]

It's purely a weight position and distribution difference.

Thanks guys. Both of your answers confirmed my prior thoughts about the merits of KB training.

bump!

i thought i would chime in here briefly as ive been using the gyria (kbs) for close to 7 yrs. Some history:

Pavel Tsatsouline was the bloke responsible for introducing kb's to the west (US) back in the late 90s. But he advocated an approach which he termed "Hard Style" meaning that he used the bells for inducing extreme tension in ballistic shock movements such as swings, clean & jerks and snatches as well as extreme tension using grinding movements like the so called military presses. It certainly got you results very quickly but you had to be very careful not to burn out. He also advocated crazy eclectic type lifts like bent presses, windmills, arm bars etc etc.

But the kettlebell as originally used in Russia was NOT used for extreme tension and grinding presses, they were and are used for developing work capacity ie strength endurance. The training used for developing work capacity is scientifically documented in old Soviet training manuals now being translated and published on the web by a kettlebell enthusiast (an aneathetist) visit his blog here Girevoy Sport after 40

In a nutshell, kettlebells are used in Girevoy Sport for 10min rounds, most repetitions wins in several weight classes and Categories:

Category A: Biathlon
- Double kettlebell Jerk ie 2x24kg or 2x32kg for 10mins. I think the world record for 2x32kg in 10mins is around 150 reps or so but forget the correct number. I'm sure you can appreciate the type of effort this requires!

- Snatch
Single 24kg or 32kg kb snatching for reps in 10mins with one hand swtich allowed. World record with the 32kg is about 190 or so.

Category B: Long Cycle Clean and Jerk
- 2 x24kg or 2x 32kg but this time cleaning the bells in the rack before jerking overhead. Exremely tough!

Category C: Juggling
Men use a single 16kg kb, women an 8kg to juggle from hand to hand by flipping turning using footwork, spinning etc done for time. Develops amazing hand/eye coordination and an incredible grip.

The sport and the training develops pretty much super humans who are very lean and very fit and are some of the most strongest men and women you can find. The only way to survive in the sport is by relaxing and not to generate excess tension and hence sometimes refered to as a 'fluid' style.

So the difference between kbs and dbs is really easy - the design because you cannot use the db for Girevoy sport. Imagine how uncomfortable it would be to rack say 2x24kg dumbbells for 10mins?

On a personal note, I only train in girevoy sport (GS) and has been the best thing i have ever done.

[TianZi]

Thanks Porthose. That was very interesting.

[seekonk]

They sound very dangerous to those of us who are injury-prone.

[porthose]

They sound very dangerous to those of us who are injury-prone.

@tianzi
your welcome!

@seekonk
any more dangerous than a dumbbell? i'm not sure why you would be injury prone unless a) you didn't know the technique well b) you keep doing exercises that hurt you c) your not paying attention to what you are doing d) you don't warm up well d) you don't cool down well and probably a whole host of other reasons...

any fool can drop a weight on their head if they aren't careful. the key though is to get a coach who knows what they are doing and you will find GS training gets you very strong, very quickly all the while in a relaxed state. ive taught GS to couch potatoes who are very overweight and can hardly move and within a month they are doing their 3 km walks at a fast pace and with NO injuries. now how is THAT for results?

i also forgot to mention that there are two types of kettlebells: GS style kettlebells are all the same size but of course different weight. so a 16kg is as large as a 32kg or even a 40kg the reason being is that the eastern bloc countries standardized the sizes in the 80s so that athletes travelling to meets in other countries wouldn't be disadvantaged by a different sized bell - much like the olympic bars and plates etc. the design of the GS kb through extensive research is now very comfortable to use and if you are thinking of starting in GS then i would recommend you get the GS style bell.

please search on youtube the name tasgirevik who has posted a lot of videos on female and male athletes doing some cool GS stuff.

[david ellis]

Pavel Tsatsouline was the bloke responsible .... He also advocated crazy eclectic type lifts like bent presses, windmills, arm bars etc etc.

Hi porthose, I hope that calling some lifts crazy eclectic type lifts doesn't mean you don't enjoy them. Bent presses, windmills, turkish get ups and all are a lot of challenge and fun. It's hard to imagine giving up military presses too.

[seekonk]

They sound very dangerous to those of us who are injury-prone.

any more dangerous than a dumbbell?

Well, yes, unless you do jerks/snatches etc. with your dumbbells or barbells. I am talking about those of us for whom these kinds of exercises with dumbbells or barbells would also be inadvisable due to injury-prone/previously injured backs and shoulders, and for whom traditional bench/seat/machine exercises will be less likely to lead to further injury because, for example, the back is supported and the motions are not as abrupt, and can more reliably be fully controlled over the whole range of motion. With kettlebells, the more dangerous types of exercises are pretty much all you have.

Edited by seekonk, 19 June 2009 - 02:04 PM.

[Shepard]

A previously injured back/shoulder will continue to be prone to injury until the reason for said injury is rectified with the proper movement.

We've got an 82 year-old man that trains with us. He still does the power versions of the snatch and clean and jerk. This is after a lifetime of injuries from football, gymnastics, and fencing. His face is always contorted in pain while lifting and stretching, but he still always shows up to do it again.

[seekonk]

We've got an 82 year-old man that trains with us. He still does the power versions of the snatch and clean and jerk. This is after a lifetime of injuries from football, gymnastics, and fencing.

Well, his prior injuries were probably not that bad then.

I envy the innocence of young (and old) guys who have never experienced debilitating chronic back or shoulder injuries. The type that require sleep meds for six months. The type that take two years to recover to the point where you can do slow pushups or slow featherlight squats without reinjury. The type that will sooner than later send you straight to the hospital on these power movements, no matter how good your form.

Edited by seekonk, 19 June 2009 - 06:39 PM.

[seekonk]

I envy the innocence of young (and old) guys who have never experienced debilitating chronic back or shoulder injuries.

Sorry for the cranky response. It is just that I haven't slept for six weeks due to an excruciating back injury sustained while doing extremely light slow squats with good form under the watchful eyes of a famous and highly-regarded sports kinesiologist who makes a career of rehabilitating and training professional athletes, whom I went to see to rehabilitate a debilitating yearlong chronic shoulder injury.

So much for the safety and advisability of power exercises for injury-prone individuals. And this was a slow and controlled one, as opposed to the snatch and jerk type exercises. Now I need opioids to do anything but lie on my back and try to discover little cartoons in the paint cracks of my bedroom ceiling.

Edited by seekonk, 19 June 2009 - 08:00 PM.

[Shepard]

If your individual situation doesn't allow for anything other than machine movements, okay. I certainly have no idea how or why you injured yourself. I know why the vast majority of people injure themselves, but that's not the point.

However, your experience doesn't change the fact that the large majority of people with past injuries (some quite nasty) can utilize the same basic movements to rehab/prehab and get/stay strong and powerful. Having been injured just means you have to individualize the protocol a little more (be willing to spend more time doing certain things) and be a little smarter than you were when you were younger (know your abilities).

Edited by Shepard, 19 June 2009 - 10:35 PM.

[seekonk]

However, your experience doesn't change the fact that the large majority of people with past injuries (some quite nasty) can utilize the same basic movements to rehab/prehab and get/stay strong and powerful.

Well, back and shoulder injuries can in some people permanently weaken structures. Why this happens more in some than in others, I don't know, but from my own experience I suspect some people just have a incorrect inflammatory or physiological healing response, so they never heal right, if at all, from injuries that others would overcome in a couple of weeks (in other words, something like Peyronie's disease, but of the musculoskeletal system). I even think, from its rapid onset in my case, that this might be an acquired syndrome. I agree that we are a minority (though perhaps not that small), which is why I confined my remarks to especially injury-prone people. Especially for a structurally weakened back or shoulder with chronic inflammation or degenerative tendinosis over years, I cannot imagine how swinging around kettlebells can be helpful. But if you have information to the contrary, I would be very happy to hear it.

Edited by seekonk, 20 June 2009 - 12:33 AM.

[Shepard]

In degenerative conditions such as that, my main concern would be staving off as much of the degeneration as possible (which usually means placing a load across the area). But, if there was a physiological impairment in the adaptation process, it would be a very fine line to tread on how much work to do. If the situation is that bad, I don't see how the individual does any normal activity (like housework). And, if that's the case, the answer is to just do what you can.

[seekonk]

If the situation is that bad, I don't see how the individual does any normal activity (like housework).

Well, I've been naming my dust bunnies lately. There's Bugs, Lola, Lexi and Ace, and of course there's Roger R.

For degenerative tendinosis at least, there seems to be some hope from newer studies on eccentric loading. I wish more was known on disorders of the adaptation process, which I think are more common than commonly realized.

Edited by seekonk, 20 June 2009 - 01:11 AM.