5 replies to this topic

[Aphrodite]

As most of you know, glycation is the result of a sugar molecule, such as fructose or glucose, bonding to a protein or lipid molecule without the controlling action of an enzyme. Advanced Glycation End products (AGEs) are the result of a chain of chemical reactions after an initial glycation reaction.



According to this definition, you must have a simple sugar present (fructose, glucose, galactose, ribose) in order for this reaction to take place. But what if there was a way to avoid or limit these simple sugars? Simple sugars, glucose in particular, are essential for the creation of ATP, and therefore essential for life. What I'm basically wondering is if human beings can attain benefit from a direct adenosine triphosphate (ATP) source (see http://www.antiaging.../a2z/biopro.htm or http://www.antiaging...com/a2z/atp.htm) and therefore bypass some of the damage associated with simple sugars in the blood.



I do not know much about this matter (I am only speculating) and I'm hoping somehow who knows more than I about this matter can provide feedback. Thanks.

Edited by Aphrodite, 11 May 2009 - 11:36 PM.

[treonsverdery]

I wondered the same thing I was going to do an experiment of daphnia with ATP plus vitamins plus protein absent a carbohydrate I was lazy though

anyway the human body produces n absorbs more than 90 pounds of ATP as part of the citric acid cycle every 24h

Pyruvate may have the energy density to route around using glucose

wikipedia on atp says
The overall process of oxidizing glucose to carbon dioxide is known as cellular respiration and can produce about 30 molecules of ATP from a single molecule of glucose.
The energy used by human cells requires the hydrolysis of 100 to 150 moles of ATP daily which is around 50 to 75 kg

which was why I thought I could try it on a little bigger than microscopic daphnia because a big 200 milligrams dissolved at the few ccs of water they swam might meet their daphnia energy needs

actually, the field of what tissue actually uses to make energy is very fresh We have both heard of the citric acid cycle as well as as lactic acid as a product of metabolism right well I read at a recent journal that the brain actually uses lactic acid or lactate (!) as its primary energy source rather than glucose (!) this was a research response to the use of of fmri glucose at the brain as being a way tp trace brain function

I can imagine why this would benefit neurons yet I was amazed

why pyruvate as a "food" might be associated with less AGE

Thus a drug that tells tissues to make more use of their lactic acid pathways might change the ways glucose gets moved around which could change glycation
wikipedia says http://en.wikipedia....iki/Lactic_acid lactate is oxidation to pyruvate by well-oxygenated muscle cells which is then directly used to fuel the citric acid cycleFrom a muscular perspective muscles use lactate after they use glucose If they used lactate first rather than sending it to the liver their performance might be different but they might glycate more gradually

anyway maybe pyruvate rather than ATP has the energy density to make a replacement for glucose as a way to minimize glycation based on the muscle n brain thing the actual mass of pyruvate used to energize tissue might actually be edible

You should realize I'm pretty much just making most of this up The data is there though

ATP or pyruvate might make a nifty cosmetic or wound healing treatment applying 200 milligrams of ATP to the first 300 cyte deep square meter of skin tissue that weighs a gram would supply 20 pt more metabolic energy directly to healing or regenerating skin that sounds cosmetically beneficial

surfactants like sodium lauryl sulfate of shampoo fame cause much higher transcutaneous absorption of chemicals thus ATP or pyruvate plus a transport chemical could actually be a skin energizer or wound rapid healing topical supplement

[Aphrodite]

Yeah I did some brief research on pyruvate a little while ago... I'll have to look at it again. Creatine is another interesting compound that supposedly has the ability to recycle used ATP (this would mean less glucose would be needed to make more ATP).

[waldemar]

The problem with Creatine is that you would need large amounts for supplying e.g. 10% of all daily needed calories. Creatine in the single digit gram range is not much of a problem for the body - but above >100 g (g, not mg) per day I'd start to plan for a donor kidney. ;-)

Using pure ATP would be even worse. You would need your own body weight per _day_. And what are you going to do with the end products?.

Using small amounts of Creatine/ATP for calories won't do much. I can't imagine getting more than 2-5%.

The only way I see where something like this could possibly work is putting a mouse on an ATP drip, and then find some way to get out the end products. Getting rid of the end products is probably 90% of the problem here.

OTOH: If we could find something that "burns" cleanly, and directly regenerates ATP (from already used up phosphate), we might be on to something.

[AgeVivo]

wondering is if human beings can attain benefit from a direct adenosine triphosphate (ATP) source (see http://www.antiaging.../a2z/biopro.htm or http://www.antiaging...com/a2z/atp.htm) and therefore bypass some of the damage associated with simple sugars in the blood

interesting. A lot less of usual food would perhaps be required if ATP was directly received.

Do you know if experiments have been done with animals?
For example worm lifespan tests in an ATP-very-rich medium?
It is a bit difficult to find through pubmed because "ATP" is used in so many articles...

[accurate_atheist]

I think it's better thinking about glycation prevention and cross link breakers, inevitably we already have glycation damage, we are not infants. I don't wan't to sound pessimistic. Atleast this site is scientific, the irritation reading my husband divorced me and hates me only because of Paxil. Anyway adenosine of ATP is a sugar, our bodies also use GTP and other trinucleotides, GTP system in the vision process. I'm no expert, as for pyruvate and creatine a large amount would be needed and we don't have a supplement for all vitamins/minerals and micronutrients. Even astronauts have to eat chips and spirulina. The Atkins diet evades carbs and tricks the body into a ketogenic state. We haven't advanced enough to bypass Kreb's cycle. Dr. Atkins and Russians works name the drug "Metformin" (Glucophage) to reduce insulin and glucose. Ramipril and Aspirin are also preventives, of course you must read about 'Carnosine' the wonder peptide of LE and benfotiamine and pyridoxime as AGE prevention agents. A crosslink breaker ALT-711 [some people illicitly get it, with its long long name, I've quit ilegal stuff so I] has proved to break AGE's, I sure hope to have some before I die. (and the trials are over) It takes 10 yrs if not more for a molecule to be a pill, that's sad.