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Surrogates (2009)


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#31 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:54 AM

I think that even with surrogates and virtual avatars that will have sensory input just like or even better than our current bodies, people will still probably opt to use a body with their original brain in it. People will use surrogates and virtual avatars (some more than others), and I see no problem in using these artificial bodies (they have a lot of benefits) but realistically most will continue to live in a body with their real brain (unless they under go mind uploading and exist in cyberspace or something similar).

The world of Ghost in the Shell is a perfect view of the future. People use surrogates and log on to matrix like VR's but most still live in a body with their real brain. Though there will be some that might see certain benefits of taking their brain and keeping it a secure box wrapped in a computer system. I personally would like to have a bio/nano enhanced cyborg body and occasionally use a surrogate for various purposes.


In this scenario, what incentive does such a user have to behave in a lawful manner? It's already bad enough that people are able to use their own bodies and minds for acts of violence.

Even ignoring the radical repercussions of severing the biological mind from it's body and emersing it in a fictional environment, existing online environments are terrible examples of public order.

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 19 January 2010 - 07:00 AM.


#32 Cyberbrain

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 05:50 PM

In this scenario, what incentive does such a user have to behave in a lawful manner? It's already bad enough that people are able to use their own bodies and minds for acts of violence.

Based on today's criminals and history, none. My only hope is that through the advance of science people will begin to become more educated and thus act out of sensible self interest for each other, and I also hope technology finds a way to end scarcity making crime for the most part a thing of the past. Other than that, again, for the foreseeable future the world will become imo similar to Ghost in the Shell where crime still exists to a degree. Though most crime will probably be cyber-crime.

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#33 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:05 PM

Though most crime will probably be cyber-crime.


Interesting that there exists such interest in jumping aboard the cybernetic world view.

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 19 January 2010 - 06:06 PM.


#34 JLL

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 06:30 PM

Just watched the movie. Pretty crappy.

I liked the idea and the beginning, but the message was just ugh. So the scenario where your actual self just deteriorates at home while your young & strong surrogate is out there having fun may not be optimal, but it's a lot better than not having fun. For some reason Bruce Willis' character doesn't agree.

Naturalist bullshit all the way. And the plot was pretty damn stupid as well. I did enjoy the surrogate idea though, and the movie made me think, so it's not a complete waste of time.

#35 Cyberbrain

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:39 PM

Just watched the movie. Pretty crappy.

I liked the idea and the beginning, but the message was just ugh. So the scenario where your actual self just deteriorates at home while your young & strong surrogate is out there having fun may not be optimal, but it's a lot better than not having fun. For some reason Bruce Willis' character doesn't agree.

Naturalist bullshit all the way. And the plot was pretty damn stupid as well. I did enjoy the surrogate idea though, and the movie made me think, so it's not a complete waste of time.

I agree. The movie had a good idea with potential, but the plot was awful, and the fact that it took place in the present and not the future like I, Robot or Minority Report or A.I. just ruined it for me. If surrogate technology exists than other more advance technology can exist too. Also having 99% of the worlds population (I think that's what was said in the movie) living through surrogates is both unrealistic and uneconomical. Surrogates will exist in the future but I highly doubt we will all end up locked up at home slowly deteriorating.

#36 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 10:48 PM

Surrogates, whether virtual or robotic will do one thing. Drive research into cosmetics, cybernetics, and biotech.

Sure some people will settle for a "remote" vicarious existence, but I would be willing to bet the overwhelming majority would not desire to only experience the world through a set of VR lenses for their entire life. That disconnect when they had to take off the lenses and stop being their "perfect self" to go eat or use the bathroom would annoy and depress too many. Given a taste, they are going to want the whole cake. Once they can actually be everything they have ever wanted to be, they are going to demand the ability to be it ALL the time. From perfect 10s to he-men, from anime cat girls to aliens, once we've reached the stage where we can live part of our lives as our dreamselves, there won't be any going back.

Sure, there may be those decrying the whole thing as "denying the truth" or "profaning what god made us" but the simple fact remains, most people would make themselves look better given the chance, if it was painless, cheap, and easy. As technology advances, it will be.

#37 Cameron

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 04:08 AM

Surrogates, whether virtual or robotic will do one thing. Drive research into cosmetics, cybernetics, and biotech.

Sure some people will settle for a "remote" vicarious existence, but I would be willing to bet the overwhelming majority would not desire to only experience the world through a set of VR lenses for their entire life. That disconnect when they had to take off the lenses and stop being their "perfect self" to go eat or use the bathroom would annoy and depress too many. Given a taste, they are going to want the whole cake. Once they can actually be everything they have ever wanted to be, they are going to demand the ability to be it ALL the time. From perfect 10s to he-men, from anime cat girls to aliens, once we've reached the stage where we can live part of our lives as our dreamselves, there won't be any going back.

Sure, there may be those decrying the whole thing as "denying the truth" or "profaning what god made us" but the simple fact remains, most people would make themselves look better given the chance, if it was painless, cheap, and easy. As technology advances, it will be.


I'm thinking some sort of intravenous matter|nutrient supply(feeding tubes just bring bad images, as some animals have shown the digestive track can be engineered to remain inactive indefinitely and still be easy to reactivate upon feeding... we can avoid such and use intravenous instead.), some technology to self-clean the outside of the body, and obviously modifications to stop muscle-wasting and increased mortality risks from indefinitely staying in-one-position|sedentary. That way people could stay all the time in vr with no negative repercussions. Some sort of direct-neural-link would likely be used. Ideally biological immortality would also be possible(with such in place, the higher IQ individuals will definitely choose to remain most if not all of the time in vr.).

The thing about vr is, that unless the laws of physics as we know them can be done away with, it is simply impossible to accomplish the same things in the real world with a physical body. You can easily change appearance|size|properties instantly, furthermore you can change them beyond what seems to be physically possible in the real world(e.g. able to resist the heat of a virtual sun, the force of virtual nuclear blast, strength to move vr planets, ability to escape a virtual black hole. Capability to survive any accident unscathed, ridiculous acceleration|deceleration, ridiculously fast regeneration, etc).

Furthermore you could generate any food an unlimited amount of time, and with some modest neuro-tech be hungry|full whenever you felt like it. There's also the ability to experience any environment whenever you pleased, going from a nice beach to a trip to the moon all in a matter of seconds. Safety can also be much much higher, probability of death being decreased practically to zero, even while swimming in a 'vr' volcano.

The only complaints I've heard is that it's "just not real" even if it is indistinguishable from real. But I don't think that will hold much ground, especially amongst a future younger generation that get to grow with such technology available. In the virtual world the poorest individuals can have thousands of cars, mansions, private beaches, even planets and moons of their own(even physically impossible structures, doorways,etc.)... they can experience the most extreme of activities|sports with zero risk, taste the finest wines and foods for free as many times as they like. Change appearance|voice|size instantly to whatever they like whenever they like. There is no risk of disease, stds, pregnancy-scares. There is no need to cook, clean, fix anything unless that is what is desired. You also don't have to worry about the sharpness of blades|utensils|etc, or wear|tear|dirt on anything. There is no need to buy gasoline, change oil, worry about car accidents, traffic jams would also be a thing of the past(countless hours, presently wasted, saved each and every day.). A 60ft flat screen, in a vr living room, is immune to anything your kids can throw at it(not even a bazooka), nor will it loose image quality with time(it can also easily be less than a nanometer thick while providing 3d-holographic display with no need for glasses. You could even get smells|temperature|tastes and even pause and enter the movies and feel the different things inside the movie provided it was designed that way.).

Virtually any comic book power can be easily represented, energy blasts, teleportation, wingless|rocket-free flight, invulnerability, invisibility, high speed regeneration, ability to increase or decrease in size rapidly. Basically a godlike existence is possible, with the wave of a hand moving mountains, creating or destroying bodies of water, creating food out of thin air while having maintenance-free physical perfection with perfect shape-shifting abilities. That is without mentioning the possibility of inhabiting worlds with new laws of physics and the possibility of experiencing the worlds through new senses.

Clearly with high levels of automation work can be abolished, and while it is conceivable that one could give each individual a planet of their own to inhabit in the real world, having such low density population and such huge distances between individuals, would, besides being incredibly wasteful, create problems without FTL communication|travel which may or may not be possible. Through the magic of vr having private 'vr' planets is possible for billions without having to leave the comfort of earth(which provides high speed communication and transportation to the rest of society.), unlimited wealth so that the poor may live, not like kings, but like gods.

Edited by Cameron, 24 January 2010 - 04:23 AM.


#38 StrangeAeons

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Posted 25 January 2010 - 08:08 AM

Whoever wrote the graphic novel should be aware of the vastly superior science fiction book, "Kiln People" by David Brin, which I'm currently reading. Basically the same concept as surrogacy, but taken much further and raising far more interesting questions.

#39 A.I.Lover

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 04:10 PM

Surrogates, whether virtual or robotic will do one thing. Drive research into cosmetics, cybernetics, and biotech.

Sure some people will settle for a "remote" vicarious existence, but I would be willing to bet the overwhelming majority would not desire to only experience the world through a set of VR lenses for their entire life. That disconnect when they had to take off the lenses and stop being their "perfect self" to go eat or use the bathroom would annoy and depress too many. Given a taste, they are going to want the whole cake. Once they can actually be everything they have ever wanted to be, they are going to demand the ability to be it ALL the time. From perfect 10s to he-men, from anime cat girls to aliens, once we've reached the stage where we can live part of our lives as our dreamselves, there won't be any going back.

Sure, there may be those decrying the whole thing as "denying the truth" or "profaning what god made us" but the simple fact remains, most people would make themselves look better given the chance, if it was painless, cheap, and easy. As technology advances, it will be.


I'm thinking some sort of intravenous matter|nutrient supply(feeding tubes just bring bad images, as some animals have shown the digestive track can be engineered to remain inactive indefinitely and still be easy to reactivate upon feeding... we can avoid such and use intravenous instead.), some technology to self-clean the outside of the body, and obviously modifications to stop muscle-wasting and increased mortality risks from indefinitely staying in-one-position|sedentary. That way people could stay all the time in vr with no negative repercussions. Some sort of direct-neural-link would likely be used. Ideally biological immortality would also be possible(with such in place, the higher IQ individuals will definitely choose to remain most if not all of the time in vr.).

The thing about vr is, that unless the laws of physics as we know them can be done away with, it is simply impossible to accomplish the same things in the real world with a physical body. You can easily change appearance|size|properties instantly, furthermore you can change them beyond what seems to be physically possible in the real world(e.g. able to resist the heat of a virtual sun, the force of virtual nuclear blast, strength to move vr planets, ability to escape a virtual black hole. Capability to survive any accident unscathed, ridiculous acceleration|deceleration, ridiculously fast regeneration, etc).

Furthermore you could generate any food an unlimited amount of time, and with some modest neuro-tech be hungry|full whenever you felt like it. There's also the ability to experience any environment whenever you pleased, going from a nice beach to a trip to the moon all in a matter of seconds. Safety can also be much much higher, probability of death being decreased practically to zero, even while swimming in a 'vr' volcano.

The only complaints I've heard is that it's "just not real" even if it is indistinguishable from real. But I don't think that will hold much ground, especially amongst a future younger generation that get to grow with such technology available. In the virtual world the poorest individuals can have thousands of cars, mansions, private beaches, even planets and moons of their own(even physically impossible structures, doorways,etc.)... they can experience the most extreme of activities|sports with zero risk, taste the finest wines and foods for free as many times as they like. Change appearance|voice|size instantly to whatever they like whenever they like. There is no risk of disease, stds, pregnancy-scares. There is no need to cook, clean, fix anything unless that is what is desired. You also don't have to worry about the sharpness of blades|utensils|etc, or wear|tear|dirt on anything. There is no need to buy gasoline, change oil, worry about car accidents, traffic jams would also be a thing of the past(countless hours, presently wasted, saved each and every day.). A 60ft flat screen, in a vr living room, is immune to anything your kids can throw at it(not even a bazooka), nor will it loose image quality with time(it can also easily be less than a nanometer thick while providing 3d-holographic display with no need for glasses. You could even get smells|temperature|tastes and even pause and enter the movies and feel the different things inside the movie provided it was designed that way.).

Virtually any comic book power can be easily represented, energy blasts, teleportation, wingless|rocket-free flight, invulnerability, invisibility, high speed regeneration, ability to increase or decrease in size rapidly. Basically a godlike existence is possible, with the wave of a hand moving mountains, creating or destroying bodies of water, creating food out of thin air while having maintenance-free physical perfection with perfect shape-shifting abilities. That is without mentioning the possibility of inhabiting worlds with new laws of physics and the possibility of experiencing the worlds through new senses.

Clearly with high levels of automation work can be abolished, and while it is conceivable that one could give each individual a planet of their own to inhabit in the real world, having such low density population and such huge distances between individuals, would, besides being incredibly wasteful, create problems without FTL communication|travel which may or may not be possible. Through the magic of vr having private 'vr' planets is possible for billions without having to leave the comfort of earth(which provides high speed communication and transportation to the rest of society.), unlimited wealth so that the poor may live, not like kings, but like gods.


I suspect that the phrase "Life is meaningless, you are the one that give meaning to it" will be the order of the day then.
But i would rather not limit ourselves in a box of how the future should be because it certainly can be much better then our small minds are able to conceive of.

#40 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 05:30 PM

I'm thinking some sort of intravenous matter|nutrient supply(feeding tubes just bring bad images


I would have to agree. Mankind's merciless cultivation and domestication of all that is natural doesn't bear well in these 'mind-uploading' and scenario's as well. Entrusting the management of your body's vitals to products is a move reserved for the sick and unwell. Turning this sort of dependency upon machines to provide your body and mind with all nutrition and sensory data is a dangerous first step towards the domestication of humanity. Don't think there aren't people out there who would love nothing more than for you to buy into a lifestyle where they have the ability to manage everything entering your brain on their webservers and breed you like a herd of cattle.

If population levels can be reduced, the quality of humanity increased and industrial growth maximized through R&D and pay is awarded according to proficiency rather than management we can start creating true utopian environments here upon the very face of the earth.

Edited by SiliconAnimation, 26 January 2010 - 05:39 PM.


#41 Forever21

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 05:31 PM

I like it. Where do I sign up?

#42 SiliconAnimation

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Posted 26 January 2010 - 06:29 PM

I like it. Where do I sign up?


http://www.stateuniversity.com/

#43 Cameron

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 03:09 AM

I'm thinking some sort of intravenous matter|nutrient supply(feeding tubes just bring bad images


I would have to agree. Mankind's merciless cultivation and domestication of all that is natural doesn't bear well in these 'mind-uploading' and scenario's as well. Entrusting the management of your body's vitals to products is a move reserved for the sick and unwell. Turning this sort of dependency upon machines to provide your body and mind with all nutrition and sensory data is a dangerous first step towards the domestication of humanity. Don't think there aren't people out there who would love nothing more than for you to buy into a lifestyle where they have the ability to manage everything entering your brain on their webservers and breed you like a herd of cattle.

If population levels can be reduced, the quality of humanity increased and industrial growth maximized through R&D and pay is awarded according to proficiency rather than management we can start creating true utopian environments here upon the very face of the earth.


Security is obviously going to be important, but the fact is all current knowledge points to virtual reality conferring a level of freedom that surpasses anything possible outside it in the real world. Humanity is often called the self-domesticated animal, and there are many internal and external control systems that allow one to function in society within certain parameters, this new technology does not change this.

But just like other technologies there is a dark side, as much as it is possible to free the mind from the limitations of the real world, it also has the possibility to enslave it beyond anything possible in the real world(e.g. A ruthless dictator could simply turn the entire population, of their nation, into something akin to brains in jars. Within the virtual world his power would be absolute, he'd be a God there. No one could assassinate him, no one could hurt him, and he could do whatever he pleases as no form of rebellion is possible, not even suicide depending on the design of the system. It would be like the scenario of the Biblical God in the old testament.). Right now by having a net connected computer, which can be hacked and filled with illegal information(copyrighted stuff for example), you have small probability of having exorbitant fees and jail time. Yet the benefits outweigh the risks, and with proper security most go about their daily lives without trouble, often logging into bank accounts through their computers, and having all sort of personal information in their computers.

With proper security, say something like a physical exit button*(isolated from the net.), you can travel the virtual world without risk of theft, rape, injury, kidnapping. Kids going to a Virtual school are far safer than kids going to a real school, there's also no getting lost in malls, trips, vacations, etc.

Once immortality pops out, the fact that virtual reality would allow for virtually zero risk of death while performing any activity won't go unnoticed.

There's also the fact that once it starts spreading, people won't want to be left out. When you can get to and hang out anywhere in an instant(Johnny who's over at virtual tokyo university, can go hang out, with his friends[who just called him.],in one of the hottest virtual LA clubs between classes by virtually teleporting there. ), including out of this world places, having to jack-out and waste a ton of time moving from place to place, getting together in some mundane place with zero uber powers from vr(for example any conceivable physical body is extremely fragile compared to the invulnerability of a virtual body, greatly limiting possible actions.), and waiting to be served is just going to seem too much of a hassle and primitive.

Edited by Cameron, 31 January 2010 - 03:40 AM.


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#44 Cephalon

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 06:20 PM

good movie! do we have a list with other movies on this topic?




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