79 replies to this topic

[Athanasios]

over the years, 90+% of studies on high-dose C i've seen have shown it to have no effect on outcomes, while the remaining are divided, although the positive outcomes always get a lot of press

Just thinking out loud here. If 90% of the studies were on high-dose vitamin C to see if it could enable you to fly like superman, then I would expect at least 90% failure. What if a lot of the negative studies were looking in the wrong places due to the big 'antioxidant' craze phase in research. Another scenario could be that high dose vitamin C requires other vitamins and/or other synergistic substances to see the effect. This could be the case, since there is a lot of interaction with Vit C and other substances. Something else that could confound the research is the amount that can be absorbed at any one time or the glucose effect that Duke mentions.

Also, I would expect a smaller food-like dosage would show a much larger evidence for use since benefits can come from correcting deficiency.

In conclusion, I have yet to see reason to give big claims to higher than food amounts vitamin C, even though there appears to be at least some benefit. I also see potential for this higher amount to be needed for optimal results and possible big benefits in a well thought out regimen. I think it too soon to declare that low dose is the way to go in any sort of conclusive way.


Disclaimer: I have not dug into the Vit C debate too much since the amount of time to sort and make sense of all the studies is too much given the likelihood that the 2500mg/day I take is meaningfully harmful.

Edited by cnorwood, 15 March 2010 - 06:35 PM.

[nameless]

over the years, 90+% of studies on high-dose C i've seen have shown it to have no effect on outcomes, while the remaining are divided, although the positive outcomes always get a lot of press

Just thinking out loud here. If 90% of the studies were on high-dose vitamin C to see if it could enable you to fly like superman, then I would expect at least 90% failure.

Disclaimer: I have not dug into the Vit C debate too much since the amount of time to sort and make sense of all the studies is too much given the likelihood that the 2500mg/day I take is meaningfully harmful.

What high dose studies are people referring to? I am not aware of a whole lot of high-dose (Pauling-style), peer-reviewed vitamin C studies done anywhere. Perhaps there have been some cancer, vit C IV studies (maybe), but most oral studies checking for heart disease, mortality and such use lower doses, in the 500mg-1 gram range.

So... although super high doses may not kill you, there is no actual evidence it'd help either. Or at least I am not aware of any studies showing a benefit at those doses.

Edited by nameless, 15 March 2010 - 06:57 PM.

[Athanasios]

What high dose studies are people referring to?

Wikipedia says: Proponents of megadosage propose from 200 mg to more than 2000 mg/day.

Obviously high is relative. I was using high dose in terms relative to food intake and not in terms of the amount a mammal would make per day.

[warner]

over the years, 90+% of studies on high-dose C i've seen have shown it to have no effect on outcomes, while the remaining are divided, although the positive outcomes always get a lot of press

Just thinking out loud here. If 90% of the studies were on high-dose vitamin C to see if it could enable you to fly like superman, then I would expect at least 90% failure. What if a lot of the negative studies were looking in the wrong places due to the big 'antioxidant' craze phase in research. Another scenario could be that high dose vitamin C requires other vitamins and/or other synergistic substances to see the effect. This could be the case, since there is a lot of interaction with Vit C and other substances. Something else that could confound the research is the amount that can be absorbed at any one time or the glucose effect that Duke mentions.

Also, I would expect a smaller food-like dosage would show a much larger evidence for use since benefits can come from correcting deficiency.

In conclusion, I have yet to see reason to give big claims to higher than food amounts vitamin C, even though there appears to be at least some benefit. I also see potential for this higher amount to be needed for optimal results and possible big benefits in a well thought out regimen. I think it too soon to declare that low dose is the way to go in any sort of conclusive way.


Disclaimer: I have not dug into the Vit C debate too much since the amount of time to sort and make sense of all the studies is too much given the likelihood that the 2500mg/day I take is meaningfully harmful.

Yup, fair points. But I'm a reductionist at heart, so I prefer not taking more than enough until proven otherwise. For example, I used to take green tea extract, but stopped since I didn't like the complexity of the mix, even though it would probably do me more good than harm.

With respect to high C doses, I was finally scared off by the reports like this one indicating a link to cancer: Fat in stomach can turn Vitamin C into a cancer trigger and by threads on this board like this one: Vitamin C increases lens crosslinking, etc.

If someone clears up all those concerns, and proves that large doses do something good, then I would reconsider vitamin C in larger doses.

[Chicago Wine Geek]

What are everyones opinion of Pauling Therapy?http://www.hearttech...ng_therapy.htmlI'm taking about 4G a day for the cardio benefit.

[aaCharley]

What are everyones opinion of Pauling Therapy?

http://www.hearttech...ng_therapy.html

I'm taking about 4G a day for the cardio benefit.

Another study which recommends the high dose Vitamin C. Note that they are using IV dosing to get the level high enough. however, an individual could possible get to the same level with liposomal administration.

Stopping Diabetes Damage With Vitamin C

[madanthony]

I am Linus Pauling era. He said you were supposed to take Vitamin C to gut tolerance.
When I was a kid gut tolerance was probably 200mg, but I cannot determine any gut tolerance now -- I
must need the whole bottle(!), but I limit to 2 g./day for economic reasons. I was very happy to have chosen
this dose when I read in my Life Extension magazine that 2g C and 800mg E protect the kidneys from
homocysteine when I got diagnosed with a homocysteine of 12 despite having taken a B100 pill each
and every day of my life.

Here is what www.lef.org says regarding C and LIFE EXTENSION:

http://search.lef.or...x...ne kidney :

Vitamin C May Lengthen Life Span

Vitamin C’s multifaceted effects in protecting against cardiovascular disease may be partly responsible for the strong association between optimal vitamin C intake and increased life span.

For example, in a major study of more than 19,000 adults aged 45-79, subjects with the lowest plasma levels of vitamin C were twice as likely to die over the course of four years compared to those with the highest levels.15 Furthermore, rates of death from all causes and from cardiovascular disease decreased as vitamin C levels increased across the entire range of plasma vitamin C levels. Even controlling for age, blood pressure, cholesterol levels, cigarette smoking, diabetes, and supplement use, a rise in plasma vitamin C concentration equivalent to that of one fruit or vegetable serving daily was associated with about a 20% reduction in risk of death from all causes.

Similarly, a 10-year study from UCLA showed that in a population of more than 11,000 US adults aged 25-74, men who took 800 mg of vitamin C daily lived about six years longer than men who took only 60 mg of vitamin C daily.16 Even after controlling for smoking, education, race, diseases, and other factors affecting survival, higher vitamin C intake in men still predicted lower mortality. Increased vitamin C intake was likewise associated with greater longevity in women. Higher vitamin C intake reduced cardiovascular deaths by 42% in men and 25% in women.

Rupturing of atherosclerotic plaque (fatty buildup) in the artery wall can have fatal consequences, including sudden death from a heart attack. Animal studies suggest that chronic vitamin C deficiency contributes to the formation of unstable arterial plaque that is more likely to lead to life-threatening cardiovascular events.17 This association suggests yet another example of how vitamin C’s cardioprotective benefits may contribute to longer, healthier life spans.

15. Khaw KT, Bingham S, Welch A, et al. Relation between plasma ascorbic acid and mortality in men and women in EPIC-Norfolk prospective study: a prospective population study. European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition. Lancet. 2001 Mar 3;357(9257):657-63.

16. Enstrom JE, Kanim LE, Klein MA. Vitamin C intake and mortality among a sample of the United States population. Epidemiology. 1992 May;3(3):194-202.

17. Nakata Y, Maeda N. Vulnerable atherosclerotic plaque morphology in apolipoprotein E-deficient mice unable to make ascorbic Acid. Circulation. 2002 Mar 26;105(12):1485-90.

[madanthony]

over the years, 90+% of studies on high-dose C i've seen have shown it to have no effect on outcomes, while the remaining are divided, although the positive outcomes always get a lot of press

Just thinking out loud here. If 90% of the studies were on high-dose vitamin C to see if it could enable you to fly like superman, then I would expect at least 90% failure. What if a lot of the negative studies were looking in the wrong places due to the big 'antioxidant' craze phase in research. Another scenario could be that high dose vitamin C requires other vitamins and/or other synergistic substances to see the effect. This could be the case, since there is a lot of interaction with Vit C and other substances. Something else that could confound the research is the amount that can be absorbed at any one time or the glucose effect that Duke mentions.

Also, I would expect a smaller food-like dosage would show a much larger evidence for use since benefits can come from correcting deficiency.

In conclusion, I have yet to see reason to give big claims to higher than food amounts vitamin C, even though there appears to be at least some benefit. I also see potential for this higher amount to be needed for optimal results and possible big benefits in a well thought out regimen. I think it too soon to declare that low dose is the way to go in any sort of conclusive way.


Disclaimer: I have not dug into the Vit C debate too much since the amount of time to sort and make sense of all the studies is too much given the likelihood that the 2500mg/day I take is meaningfully harmful.

Yup, fair points. But I'm a reductionist at heart, so I prefer not taking more than enough until proven otherwise. For example, I used to take green tea extract, but stopped since I didn't like the complexity of the mix, even though it would probably do me more good than harm.

With respect to high C doses, I was finally scared off by the reports like this one indicating a link to cancer: Fat in stomach can turn Vitamin C into a cancer trigger and by threads on this board like this one: Vitamin C increases lens crosslinking, etc.

If someone clears up all those concerns, and proves that large doses do something good, then I would reconsider vitamin C in larger doses.

Newsflash: glucose glycates proteins every day and is a major source of aging. Don't worry about Vitamin C, which you need for good health, and which is an ANTI-gycating agent for PROTEIN and glucose; instead if you are worried about glycation take another product for it:

www.vrp.com/pdf/September2009/News.pdf

(The chart above is from a cited glycation study, and shows a wide choice of anti-glycation agents, ibcluding benfotiamine (B1), and P5P (B6 is NOT an anti-glycation agent)).

http://search.lef.or...x...leaf olive


http://search.lef.or...x...leaf olive

[madanthony]

www.vrp.com/pdf/September2009/News.pdf

Oops the website it is www.vrp.com/pdf/September2009News.pdf

[spider]

I take between 4 and 6 grams ascorbic acid.

[albert]

Vitamin C Rich food:

• Acerola
• Asian pear
• Banana
• Blueberry
• Casimiroa
• Guava, tropical

At least, Eat daily one of the above mention food.

Edited by albert, 07 April 2010 - 10:47 AM.

[spider]

Vitamin C Rich food:

• Acerola
• Asian pear
• Banana
• Blueberry
• Casimiroa
• Guava, tropical

At least, Eat daily one of the above mention food.

I thought that bananas contain only very little vit C. Moreover, doesn't a banana contain a substance that interferes with vit C?

[albert]

There are over 300 varieties of bananas worldwide. Bananas are rich in potassium, calcium, magnesium phosphorus and iron. They are also a good source of Vitamins A and C as well as thiamine, riboflavin and niacin. Bananas also contain all 8 essential amino acids.

[tintinet]

From Nutritiondata.com



Amounts per 1 cup, mashed (225g) Banana

Vitamin C: 19.6mg/serving 33% Daily Value.

Percent Daily Values (%DV) are for adults or children aged 4 or older, and are based on a 2,000 calorie reference diet. Your daily values may be higher or lower based on your individual needs.

[stephen_b]

Some commentary on the study that found:

The administration of vitamin C significantly (P=0.014) hampered endurance capacity. Vitamin C also prevented the exercise induced increases of markers of increased fitness such as cytochrome C (a marker of mitochondrial content) and of the body’s own powerful antioxidant enzymes superoxide desmutase and glutathione peroxidase.

Maybe a gram a day is too much. Perhaps 200mg/day might be a better bet?

[stephen_b]

A different study (full text) came to different conclusions (they used 1g in four divided doses and also 800 mg alpha tocopherol). n=10 though.

[aLurker]

None.

Rationale: I get vitamin C from my diet and some from my multivitamin. My regimen is heavily optimized for price/performance and unless I find vitamin C practically for free I see no reason to buy it over other supplements which seem more promising. If you gave me a crate or an unlimited budget I might consider taking it but for now it seems pretty meh. Compare with vitamin D which definitely seems worth it. There are so many supplements and foods which takes precedence over vitamin C it's ridiculous. Investing in healthy food containing vitamin C (blueberries for instance) is probably a way better option since you get additional beneficial effects.

[Thorsten3]

Yeah no offence but don't rely on eating bananas for your vitamin C! From what I've read Vit C in bananas is pretty minimal. Unless there are some bad ass bananas from some unknown place that we know very little about?!

I eat grapefruit, oranges, kiwi's (occasionally), pineapple, goji berries spaced throughout the day.

I also take 2g of Vit C upon waking up.

[waxrobot]

For the past 3 years I have been taking vitamin C 5 times a day in 2000mg doses in pill form.
I base my dosage on the old 70's data indicating 13,000mg per day of ascorbic acid being synthesized in a mammal (goat) of 150lb. (That would be a very large goat, wouldn't it. I always thought they were small like a dog.)
I weigh 120lb which is 10,400mg/day I get additional C from food and my multivitamin.

[pycnogenol]

Currently taking 1000 mg x 3 each meal time and 500 mg at bedtime on an empty stomach.

I take the Thorne Research and Nature's Plus brands of Vitamin C.

Edited by pycnogenol, 01 August 2010 - 10:39 PM.

[Dmitri]

I now take 300mg from my multi-vitamin and some more from my diet. Anyway, according to this article 100g (or a small apple) has the same antioxidant activity of 1,500mg of Vitamin C. : http://www.applepoly...coloncancer.htm

[estranged]

I take 150mg vitamin C from camu camu extract which is included in my multi. My multi also has 20 mg r-lipoic acid. That may also recycle it a bit.

[Ark]

Its common enough that you can just binge when you see it around you.*(example i see oranges or vitamin c caps at friends house !yummy!)^_^

[strake]

8g daily, at least, for overall health.

[TheFountain]

I take about 1000 milligrams a day to aid in the absorption of MSM powder. It's also added to the multivitamin I take, around 500 mgs. So apparently 1500 altogether.

[bestbefore]

Wow, this is shocking. You guys can take large amounts of vitamin c, but can't even read...

[brunotto]

I have always had sinus problems and for some reason Vitamin C dries them up. I take 2 grams of buffered Vitamin C three times a day. Maybe Vitamin C in high doses lowers histamine levels? Does anyone out there know why this Vitamin C has this effect?

This is the reason (IMHO)
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21074755

[bestbefore]

I always find this very useful for determining how much vitamin c I should use:

# Excellent evidence for optimal vitamin C 100-200 mg.

* LPI review of epidemiology: CVD, possibly cance4r benefits of ~90-100 vs ~<45 mg/day and no further.[145] Similar data, but ‘no conclusions can be drawn,’ from IOM; new DRI, 90 mg/day.[146]
* Plasma levels do not increase at intakes >100 mg/day when tested 1 x 30 - 4 x 45 mg, but decreasing-returns increases from 4 x 250 and 4 x 500 mg;[147] plasma levels essentially plateau at 200 mg w/small increases 500-2500 mg, but tissue saturation (selective active transport into leukocytes) complete at ~100 mg/day and excretion of unmetabolized C jumps at >60 mg/day.[148]
-No evidence for reduced DNA damage from 60-600 mg/day; lipid damage almost entirely bogus measures (ex vivo LDL oxidizability unphysiologic; TBARS, MDA reflect all kinds of other stuff); F2 isoprostanes inconsistent;145, 146 continues in later studies. 51,[149],[150],[151],[152]
* Pauling et al ‘making the case’ from animals who synthesize their own C, etc – very weak ‘evidence.’
* No data on humans consuming 10 g C/day! 95th percentile intake 1200 mg. 146
* ‘Hypoascorbemic’ guinea pigs have shorter mean, max, minimum LS when given 10-20 ‘RDAs.’[153]
* Uric acid and other factors may have replaced C in humans.[154]

References here: http://www.cron-web....guide-refs.html

[pycnogenol]

bestbefore,

Have you read the book "Ascorbate: The Science of Vitamin C" by Drs. Steve Hickey and Hilary Roberts? If not, I highly suggest picking a copy up.

http://hubpages.com/...el-of-Vitamin-C

Edited by pycnogenol, 16 January 2011 - 11:42 PM.

[pycnogenol]

Ascorbate: The Science of Vitamin C

http://www.amazon.co...24&sr=1-1-fkmr0

Edited by pycnogenol, 16 January 2011 - 11:44 PM.