69 replies to this topic

[Loot Perish]

I remember him saying now something like

"I want to live forever"

This was from a program he did, I think it was called living with michael jackson.

THe video is on youtube. MJ goes shopping with journalist bashir. They look over a golden egyptian sarcophagus. Bashir asks MJ if he would like to be buried in it. MJ is aghast and says "No! I don't want to be be buried at all. I want to live forever."

You would think that a forum full of purported immortalists would know this.

you can see it here at the 3 min 30 second mark:
mj live forever

Edited by Reverend_X, 26 June 2009 - 01:03 PM.

[erzebet]

i'm so shocked he died. i also thought he would have arranged to be cryopreserved in case of death.
i respected him so much that i forgot he was a human being like all of us:((((

[Dmitri]

You have to start the procedure right away after a person dies. I dont know what it is exactly, but after more than around a minute goes by after death then you cant freeze them.

How does this work with an autopsy? For example with Michael Jackson they must know the death cause, and an autopsy can't work so well with cryonic preservation?

CNN mentioned that if Michael's doctor had not been missing an autopsy would not have been necessary, but they can't find him, they even had the doctor's car towed from Michael's rented home yesterday.

[TheFountain]

You have to start the procedure right away after a person dies. I dont know what it is exactly, but after more than around a minute goes by after death then you cant freeze them.

How does this work with an autopsy? For example with Michael Jackson they must know the death cause, and an autopsy can't work so well with cryonic preservation?

CNN mentioned that if Michael's doctor had not been missing an autopsy would not have been necessary, but they can't find him, they even had the doctor's car towed from Michael's rented home yesterday.

This does not smell right. I wonder what role the doctor played in his death and if he had any accomplices.

[Matt]

Might of been overdose of Demerol

[bgwowk]

You have to start the procedure right away after a person dies. I dont know what it is exactly, but after more than around a minute goes by after death then you cant freeze them.

I'm curious where you got that idea. Did you read it somewhere? It's untrue because people can actually be resuscitated and recover after more than a minute of clinical death (several minutes actually) with present medical technology. So it certainly wouldn't be too late to cryopreserve them. In Jackson's case, they apparently worked on him for more than an hour trying to restart his heart before they threw in the towel.

What happens is that there is a progression of damage, especially to the brain, that occurs in the minutes and hours after the heart stops. The damage to the heart from stopped blood flow makes it difficult to restart the heart as more time passes, and damage to the brain can leave a person with neurological deficits or permanent coma even if the heart can eventually be restarted. However, unless you are vaporized by a nuclear blast or something, there is no single defining moment at which a person dies. It's all a progression of damage. For legal purposes, the moment of death is defined as when a physician decides to give up trying to restart the heart (or the moment a physician determines that the heart is stopped for a patient with "do not resusciate" orders on their chart). However this is a legal event, not the biological or metaphysical event that death is popularly believed to me. Death is a process, not an event.

For cryonics purposes, microscopy data suggests that the essential brain information that defines a person's memory and personal identity almost certainly persists for hours after clinical death (stopping of the heart), long after legal death is typically pronounced, or even longer with cooling. This is why some people who sign up for cryonics say that they want to be cryopreserved even after very long time delays.

As an aside, it is odd to see the media try to explain "cardiac arrest" as a cause of death. Cardiac arrest is part of the process of dying, not a cause of death in itself. There is almost always an underlying cause for cardiac arrest, and that will be the cause of death. Only in very rare cases called "sudden cardiac death" does the heart stop for no apparent reason.

[brokenportal]

You have to start the procedure right away after a person dies. I dont know what it is exactly, but after more than around a minute goes by after death then you cant freeze them.

How does this work with an autopsy? For example with Michael Jackson they must know the death cause, and an autopsy can't work so well with cryonic preservation?

CNN mentioned that if Michael's doctor had not been missing an autopsy would not have been necessary, but they can't find him, they even had the doctor's car towed from Michael's rented home yesterday.

This does not smell right. I wonder what role the doctor played in his death and if he had any accomplices.

That sounds like something that the SUN, or the Enquirer mentioned that CNN mentioned. Why do magazines like those even enter peoples vocabulary? I mean, its such a complete insult to peoples intelligence that its unbeleivable and still it gets media play. I mean like for example, yesterday in some of the news coverage I saw a reporter hold up a copy of the SUN and talk about statements they were releasing already. I mean, what the heck? What are they going to do next, get Napolean Dynomite on as a pundit and gather his opinions with a straight face? I dont get it.

This doctor thing could be real, Im just saying, it sounds like something that probably came from a source like the SUN.

[brokenportal]

You have to start the procedure right away after a person dies. I dont know what it is exactly, but after more than around a minute goes by after death then you cant freeze them.

I'm curious where you got that idea. Did you read it somewhere? It's untrue because people can actually be resuscitated and recover after more than a minute of clinical death (several minutes actually) with present medical technology. So it certainly wouldn't be too late to cryopreserve them. In Jackson's case, they apparently worked on him for more than an hour trying to restart his heart before they threw in the towel.

What happens is that there is a progression of damage, especially to the brain, that occurs in the minutes and hours after the heart stops. The damage to the heart from stopped blood flow makes it difficult to restart the heart as more time passes, and damage to the brain can leave a person with neurological deficits or permanent coma even if the heart can eventually be restarted. However, unless you are vaporized by a nuclear blast or something, there is no single defining moment at which a person dies. It's all a progression of damage. For legal purposes, the moment of death is defined as when a physician decides to give up trying to restart the heart (or the moment a physician determines that the heart is stopped for a patient with "do not resusciate" orders on their chart). However this is a legal event, not the biological or metaphysical event that death is popularly believed to me. Death is a process, not an event.

For cryonics purposes, microscopy data suggests that the essential brain information that defines a person's memory and personal identity almost certainly persists for hours after clinical death (stopping of the heart), long after legal death is typically pronounced, or even longer with cooling. This is why some people who sign up for cryonics say that they want to be cryopreserved even after very long time delays.

As an aside, it is odd to see the media try to explain "cardiac arrest" as a cause of death. Cardiac arrest is part of the process of dying, not a cause of death in itself. There is almost always an underlying cause for cardiac arrest, and that will be the cause of death. Only in very rare cases called "sudden cardiac death" does the heart stop for no apparent reason.

I should have started that sentence off with "Im pretty sure that you have to start the procedure right away." Because Im not exactly sure, but brain damage sets in after a couple of minutes right? Rigermortis sets in after a couple of hours, and bacteria and stuff start to invade tissues in the absence of lymph and blood flow and all that. Sure I guess a person could be frozen in that condition but then I dont know what they are going to do about the brain damage, but I suppose they could try to fix it.

[Shannon Vyff]

I'm surprised with all the planning he did, he did not apparently set up cryonic suspension arrangements. All those years of wearing a mask in public, all the things he did to avoid death--pretty ironic and disheartening that he died at such a "young" age.

Maybe he'll still get preserved in some manner...

http://www.dailymail...-freezing.html#

Michael Jackson set to be 'plastinated' after missing the deadline for cryogenic freezing

By Daily Mail Reporter and Allan Hall

Last updated at 7:21 PM on 26th June 2009

Michael Jackson will live on as a 'plastinated' creature preserved by controversial German doctor Gunther von Hagens after missing the deadline for cryogenic freezing.

It was widely believed that the singer, who died yesterday from a heart attack, was interested in having his body frozen in the hope he could later be brought back to life.

However, it is now likely to be too late for his wish to be granted as the freezing process - cryonics - must be initiated almost immediately after death but an autopsy on Jackson's body still needs to be carried out.

Von Hagens, who has caused widespread controversy with his practice of preserving corpses with polyurethane, today declared: 'An agreement is in place to plastinate the King of Pop.'

Von Hagens said that he spoke with representatives of the Jackson family 'many months ago' and it was agreed that his body will be plastinated and placed next to Bubbles, his late pet monkey who was also plastinated a number of years ago and is currently exhibited at The Body Worlds & Mirror Of Time exhibition at the O2 in London.

Refuted by everyone from the pope to the chief rabbi in Israel, 'plastination' is when corpses are embalmed with preserving polyurethane and frozen forever.

In contrast, cryonics is the cooling of legally dead people to liquid nitrogen temperature where physical decay essentially stops, with the idea that technology developed in the future will be able to revive them.

No-one has ever been revived using this process although it is a popular subject in science fiction films such as Forever Young featuring Mel Gibson.

Despite this, cryogenic freezing has become more popular over time.

Media mogul Simon Cowell caused headlines recently after he said that he wanted to undergo the process.

'Medical science is bound to work out a way of bringing us back to life in the next century or so, and I want to be available when they do,' he said.

Speaking of Michael's final requests, Dr von Hagens also confirmed that he wanted to be reunited with Bubbles.

'There is no better place than to do this at the venue where Jackson was due to perform his world record 50-date tour,' said a spokesman for von Hagens.

He added: 'Whilst von Hagens is keen to keep the pose of the superstar's plastinate under wraps, he hinted that the moonwalk position would naturally be favoured.

'It is hoped the exhibit will be unveiled towards the end of July for all fans to visit and pay their respects.'

Cryogenic freezing is offered in America by the Alcor Life Extension Foundation and Cryonics Institute.

Between them, they currently have 178 frozen patients and 1,000 members signed up to the scheme.

How cryonics works

The medical process is a complicated one. Immediately after a cryonic patient's death certificate is signed by a doctor, a cryonics team restores the heartbeat and respiration using a machine to help keep cells in organs and tissues alive.

The patient's body is then cooled from body temperature (37C) to 10C as quickly as possible using ice.
Mel Gibson

Mel Gibson played a character from the 1930s who was frozen for 60 years in the 1992 film Forever Young

Medication is added to their bloodstream to help preserve the body.

Blood is then removed from the body and replaced with a saline-like solution that stops the shrinking or swelling of cells and tissues.

Anti-freeze agents are added to the blood vessels and the body is placed in a special cooling box where it is cooled to between -120C and -196C and stored away.

However, for this process to have any chance of working, the cryonic process must be started just minutes after 'legal death' is verified by doctors.

This is because a dead person's brain will start to experience a build-up of lactic acid at room temperature. Within 24 hours it will have virtually dissolved.

So with an autopsy on Michael Jackson expected 24 hours after his death, it's already too late for the Peter Pan of pop who never wanted to grow up.

[Shannon Vyff]

Oh and Brokenportal what you said:

Rigermortis sets in after a couple of hours, and bacteria and stuff start to invade tissues in the absence of lymph and blood flow and all that

is correct, only when a person is not found by family or medical professionals. Apparently Michael Jackson was found quickly--bodies in hospitals are kept at near freezing temperatures while waiting for an autopsy or for transportation/burial etc. Michael Jackson's body, and more importantly brain may still be in good condition for cryonic preservation. Brain cells last longer than we have previously thought the past decade, without oxygen--the window for optimal preservation seems to be up to 48 hours of death. Autopsy at 24 hours is not too late for Michael Jackson to have his wish for cryonic preservation fulfilled.

[erzebet]

i'm hope you are right, shannon..now if only he family would agree to it....
and i'm hope he really made arrangements to be cryopreserved

[brokenportal]

I see, and the cooling can be effective to help aid the cryo presevation process for up to 48 hours? Thats good news. I wonder if some people are taking up the practice of installing near freezing temperature chambers in their homes in case of emergencies.

I didnt see any indications that they quickly cooled Jackson in the ambulance or hospital, but I hope they did.

Oh and Brokenportal what you said:

Rigermortis sets in after a couple of hours, and bacteria and stuff start to invade tissues in the absence of lymph and blood flow and all that

is correct, only when a person is not found by family or medical professionals. Apparently Michael Jackson was found quickly--bodies in hospitals are kept at near freezing temperatures while waiting for an autopsy or for transportation/burial etc. Michael Jackson's body, and more importantly brain may still be in good condition for cryonic preservation. Brain cells last longer than we have previously thought the past decade, without oxygen--the window for optimal preservation seems to be up to 48 hours of death. Autopsy at 24 hours is not too late for Michael Jackson to have his wish for cryonic preservation fulfilled.

[bgwowk]

I should have started that sentence off with "Im pretty sure that you have to start the procedure right away." Because Im not exactly sure, but brain damage sets in after a couple of minutes right? Rigermortis sets in after a couple of hours, and bacteria and stuff start to invade tissues in the absence of lymph and blood flow and all that. Sure I guess a person could be frozen in that condition but then I dont know what they are going to do about the brain damage, but I suppose they could try to fix it.

It's certainly best to start the procedure right away, no doubt about that. However the damage issue is complicated, and depends even more on the technology used for resuscitation than the damage that occurs during stopped blood flow itself.

Dogs (or people) whose hearts are restarted after 10 minutes of no blood flow at normal body temperature, with no other treatment, will suffer so much brain damage that they'll probably never even wake up. However if you take an animal who has suffered the exact same injury and restart blood flow differently (diluted with saline, higher pressure, slightly lower temperature) they can recover with no brain damage at all. This tells you that clinical death does not itself quickly cause irreversible brain damage, but rather primes the brain to become damaged later during the recovery process when poor resuscitation technology is used. There are reasons to believe that similar considerations apply to much longer periods of clinical death when comparing foreseeable resuscitation technologies to the crude interventions available today. So you can't look at clinical outcomes of resuscitation today as a guide to how much brain damage is *really* taking place during cardiac arrest. Sometimes the treatment is worse than the disease.

Rigor mortis is actin and myosin sticking together in muscles. It doesn't even affect the brain. While rigor seems ominous because of the cultural connection with death, it's among the most minor problems that would have to be fixed in a cryonics patient. Bacteria aren't a factor until long after (probably days after) more serious problems like autolysis begin. There's a more detailed discussion of these issues here

http://www.alcor.org...l#resuscitation

If people specify cryopreservation "of any biological remains whatsoever" in their cryonics paperwork, they will be cryopreserved even after an autospy. Although of course that is a very bad scenario.

Edited by bgwowk, 26 June 2009 - 08:33 PM.

[Shannon Vyff]

Thank you Brian for your input, many autopsies also include removing the brain unfortunately and putting it into the abdomen, this could cause considerable damage--there are cryonicists currently preserved who were autopsied and were preserved as they specified in their cryonics arrangement papers that the wanted cryopreservation "of any biological remains whatsoever" as you pointed out. It is my understanding though that there are also those who specify that they only are concerned that their brain be preserved if any of it remains, including after an autopsy.

[Shannon Vyff]

I had a conversation with Regina at Alcor today about our upcoming TX training in the course of our discussion of who will be coming we discussed the current news about Michael Jackson as I'd heard he'd had a wish to be cryonically preserved. We talked about how if he did have arrangements with Alcor it could not be confirmed or denied. Alcor keeps members arrangements private, unless they specify otherwise--most prefer to be private. We discussed the positives of someone like Michael Jackson being cryopreserved. Michael Jackson may have expressed a wish to be cryopreserved, but unfortunately it seems to me that he never contacted an organization and set up arrangements (another example of why, no matter if you believe that SI will happen in your lifetime--that you should have cryonics set up as a backup in case something unexpected happens). I can not confirm though that he did not set up any cryonic preservation arrangements, and if he did so I'm sure they were kept quiet. I still have hope that he will be cryonically preserved.

[brokenportal]

Well, I guess Ive never thought about the potential to un-do rigor mortis before, but thats a good point. When I say bacteria I say that as one of the only things that come to mind. I imagined there must be some other kinds of things like maybe a cooking factor going on, de ionization, free radical havoc, I dont know, things like that.

I didnt know a brain with no blood flow for ten minutes at room temperature can be brought back with minimal to no negative effects. Thats interesting and exciting to think about. The faq says up to an hour in a cat with some neurological deficits, with certain treatments. I wonder what the optimal time in humans ultimately is then. I thought brain decay was rapid. Thanks for the info.

[erzebet]

if there is no cryonic organization in a country, can someone file legal paperwork to be cryopreserved in another country?

[Dmitri]

Well, I guess Ive never thought about the potential to un-do rigor mortis before, but thats a good point. When I say bacteria I say that as one of the only things that come to mind. I imagined there must be some other kinds of things like maybe a cooking factor going on, de ionization, free radical havoc, I dont know, things like that.

I didnt know a brain with no blood flow for ten minutes at room temperature can be brought back with minimal to no negative effects. Thats interesting and exciting to think about. The faq says up to an hour in a cat with some neurological deficits, with certain treatments. I wonder what the optimal time in humans ultimately is then. I thought brain decay was rapid. Thanks for the info.

The procedure in which they lower the person's temperature is referred to as therapeutic hypothermia, not sure how widely used it is in hospitals.

[bgwowk]

if there is no cryonic organization in a country, can someone file legal paperwork to be cryopreserved in another country?

See http://www.alcor.org...ernational.html

[Shannon Vyff]

There was a flurry of interest in cryonics after it was reported that Paris Hilton had contacted a cryonics organization. Here is CI's statment:

> Paris Hilton news story

October 19, 2007


The Cryonics Institute (CI) is aware of a news story that Paris Hilton has "bought shares" in CI. CI is a non-profit corporation and does not issue shares. People cannot buy shares in CI and CI has no shareholders. CI is "owned" (controlled) entirely by its voting Members, and elected Directors and Officers. Voting Members are adult CI Members who have contracts and funding in place for their own cryopreservation. Income and assets are to be used only for maintaining the organization and for the benefit of its patients. No individual can have personal ownership of CI assets.

For further detail on how CI is structured see the By-Laws of the Cryonics Institute .

Concerning the reported membership of Paris Hilton in CI or her use of CI services, as a policy CI does not affirm or deny such claims. CI recommends that anyone considering copying this story circulating in the celebrity press contact Miss Hilton or her press officer first and check the facts.

It is good to keep in mind that cryonics organizations have the privacy of their members as a priority and can never confirm or deny if a person has arrangements with them. Some people like to promote their arrangements, others for professional reasons or family reasons--prefer to keep their arrangements as it is safer for them to do so.

[Shannon Vyff]

I certainly hope that there is increased interest in cryonics due to some of the public statements he had made expressing interest in it. The articles I've seen so far that have mentioned cryonics did so in a balanced way. Beyond cryonics though or how the extreme life extension movement and various aspects of it that he was interested in, may or may not get increased attention, I hope that Michael Jackson's family will be able to handle this situation and care for his children. It is heartbreaking that he left behind such young children.

[TheFountain]

This is because a dead person's brain will start to experience a build-up of lactic acid at room temperature. Within 24 hours it will have virtually dissolved.

To illustrate an example of this, when terri shaivo was 'brought back' from death after her heart stopped beating for 5 minutes she lost significant brain matter, hence why 'her' cerebral cortex was nothing but cerebrospinal fluid when the ruling finally came to 'pull the plug' on the respirator. Does this mean that people who are not immediately cryopreserved will never have a chance to return? What if technology finds a way to regenerate lost brain matter?

What should the threshold be then? How dead is too dead for cryopreservation? Should we expand the threshold with a thought that maybe science will find a way to regenerate organs in long dead corpses too? Why have such a limited philosophy with regard to cryonics?

Edited by TheFountain, 27 June 2009 - 04:18 AM.

[niner]

This is because a dead person's brain will start to experience a build-up of lactic acid at room temperature. Within 24 hours it will have virtually dissolved.

To illustrate an example of this, when terri shaivo was 'brought back' from death after her heart stopped beating for 5 minutes she lost significant brain matter, hence why 'her' cerebral cortex was nothing but cerebrospinal fluid when the ruling finally came to 'pull the plug' on the respirator. Does this mean that people who are not immediately cryopreserved will never have a chance to return? What if technology finds a way to regenerate lost brain matter?

What should the threshold be then? How dead is too dead for cryopreservation? Should we expand the threshold with a thought that maybe science will find a way to regenerate organs in long dead corpses too? Why have such a limited philosophy with regard to cryonics?

Terry Schiavo certainly didn't lose much of her brain in the first few minutes or even hours of the process. That was the state that it ended up in many years later. There is certainly such a thing as "too dead" for cryopreservation. If the information in your brain is gone, like in the case where your brain has dissolved or, say, fell into a gigantic vat of molten metal, then you are screwed. Even in cases slightly less bad than those, you really might prefer to use your funds to help your family or friends or society in general in the here and now instead of taking a long shot that has an extremely low probability of working. It should be each persons choice, but I do think there is an ethical dimension to it.

[brokenportal]

To illustrate an example of this, when terri shaivo was 'brought back' from death after her heart stopped beating for 5 minutes she lost significant brain matter, hence why 'her' cerebral cortex was nothing but cerebrospinal fluid when the ruling finally came to 'pull the plug' on the respirator.

Part of bgwowk's point was that in many cases the damage is coming from the resuscetation. That the cure can be more damaging than the cause. Something about blood being forced back through cappilaries destroying them and stuff like that, the response is in this topic. If resuscetation is done in a certain way though, apparently the brain can retain function after at least 10 minutes with no blood flow at room temperature. This faq he linked is really informative: http://www.alcor.org...l#resuscitation It also says that it has worked in a cat with no blood flow after an hour, with some brain deficiits. This is great news, and something we all should know. Somebody should make up some sort of quiz that people can use to help themselves stay fresh on these many points like this about the cause.

[TheFountain]

This is because a dead person's brain will start to experience a build-up of lactic acid at room temperature. Within 24 hours it will have virtually dissolved.

To illustrate an example of this, when terri shaivo was 'brought back' from death after her heart stopped beating for 5 minutes she lost significant brain matter, hence why 'her' cerebral cortex was nothing but cerebrospinal fluid when the ruling finally came to 'pull the plug' on the respirator. Does this mean that people who are not immediately cryopreserved will never have a chance to return? What if technology finds a way to regenerate lost brain matter?

What should the threshold be then? How dead is too dead for cryopreservation? Should we expand the threshold with a thought that maybe science will find a way to regenerate organs in long dead corpses too? Why have such a limited philosophy with regard to cryonics?

Terry Schiavo certainly didn't lose much of her brain in the first few minutes or even hours of the process. That was the state that it ended up in many years later. There is certainly such a thing as "too dead" for cryopreservation. If the information in your brain is gone, like in the case where your brain has dissolved or, say, fell into a gigantic vat of molten metal, then you are screwed. Even in cases slightly less bad than those, you really might prefer to use your funds to help your family or friends or society in general in the here and now instead of taking a long shot that has an extremely low probability of working. It should be each persons choice, but I do think there is an ethical dimension to it.

What about the people who tell you cryopreservation is a long shot? Why should we look at organ regeneration any differently? There is absolutely no telling what we can do with a simple DNA strand, or what can be replicated in the future. Now yes, but we are talking about speculative science in the first place. So why is one form of speculative science ok but not the other?

Edited by TheFountain, 27 June 2009 - 12:33 PM.

[Dmitri]

I am interested to see if he actually had cryonics arrangements in place.

Also, of interest is that Michael Jackson engaged in some speculative "treatments" in order to modify his appearance and/or enhance his health. It was widely reported that he spent a few years sleeping at night in an oxygen chamber.

In the end, it seems being a super-mega-star, shaped him, and the stress no doubt IMHO contributed to his untimely death. 50 is quite young in today's world.

According to TIME magazine: http://www.time.com/...1907262,00.html

"In 1984, the singer was hospitalized after receiving second-degree burns when his hair accidentally caught fire during the filming of a Pepsi commercial. Jackson reportedly used a hyperbaric oxygen chamber while he recovered and allegedly also slept in the chamber in an effort to halt the aging process — photos of him lying in one were leaked in 1986 — a claim he denied".

[bgwowk]

What about the people who tell you cryopreservation is a long shot? Why should we look at organ regeneration any differently? There is absolutely no telling what we can do with a simple DNA strand, or what can be replicated in the future. Now yes, but we are talking about speculative science in the first place. So why is one form of speculative science ok but not the other?

The point being made with regard to Terry Schiavo is that she did not immediately lose any brain tissue as a result of five minutes of no blood flow. Tissue loss is a very long process performed by the body as the end stage of being unable to heal injured tissue even though the initial injury is very minor. So you don't need to worry about replacing (regenerating) any brain tissue in cryonics patients because of an interval of absent blood flow. Less drastic repairs can set things back on the right track while still likely preserving original tissue and memories stored therein.

However you are correct that tissue regeneration is an important part of the idea of cryonics, especially for neuropatients, and even for whole bodies patients for whom it may be easier to regrow new young organs than repair aged ones damaged by cryopreservation. Even brain tissue will need to be regenerated to repair traumatic brain injuries and the cerebral atrophy of aging. Here's a hypothetical revival scenario involving extensive tissue regeneration.

http://www.alcor.org...suscitation.htm

It can indeed be argued that with tissue regeneration included in the arsenal of revival technologies that everybody can be revived regardless of injury and that therefore no one is "hopeless." The caveat is that people who suffer severe injuries to the brain would only be able to be revived with partial memories of their past because of lost brain information. They wouldn't be permanently disabled like Terry Schiavo because their whole brain could be restored to biological health, but their personal identity would only partially overlap the original person. While our culture regards personal survival as a black-and-white binary question, whether we survive changes to ourselves from injury or even normal living over long spans of time is full of shades of grey.

Edited by bgwowk, 27 June 2009 - 04:23 PM.

[advancedatheist]

It can indeed be argued that with tissue regeneration included in the arsenal of revival technologies that everybody can be revived regardless of injury and that therefore no one is "hopeless." The caveat is that people who suffer severe injuries to the brain would only be able to be revived with partial memories of their past because of lost brain information. They wouldn't be permanently disabled like Terry Schiavo because their whole brain could be restored to biological health, but their personal identity would only partially overlap the original person. While our culture regards personal survival as a black-and-white binary question, whether we survive changes to ourselves from injury or even normal living over long spans of time is full of shades of grey.

Refer to Thomas Donaldson's story Travelling, for example.

[niner]

This is because a dead person's brain will start to experience a build-up of lactic acid at room temperature. Within 24 hours it will have virtually dissolved.

To illustrate an example of this, when terri shaivo was 'brought back' from death after her heart stopped beating for 5 minutes she lost significant brain matter, hence why 'her' cerebral cortex was nothing but cerebrospinal fluid when the ruling finally came to 'pull the plug' on the respirator. Does this mean that people who are not immediately cryopreserved will never have a chance to return? What if technology finds a way to regenerate lost brain matter?

What should the threshold be then? How dead is too dead for cryopreservation? Should we expand the threshold with a thought that maybe science will find a way to regenerate organs in long dead corpses too? Why have such a limited philosophy with regard to cryonics?

Terry Schiavo certainly didn't lose much of her brain in the first few minutes or even hours of the process. That was the state that it ended up in many years later. There is certainly such a thing as "too dead" for cryopreservation. If the information in your brain is gone, like in the case where your brain has dissolved or, say, fell into a gigantic vat of molten metal, then you are screwed. Even in cases slightly less bad than those, you really might prefer to use your funds to help your family or friends or society in general in the here and now instead of taking a long shot that has an extremely low probability of working. It should be each persons choice, but I do think there is an ethical dimension to it.

What about the people who tell you cryopreservation is a long shot? Why should we look at organ regeneration any differently? There is absolutely no telling what we can do with a simple DNA strand, or what can be replicated in the future. Now yes, but we are talking about speculative science in the first place. So why is one form of speculative science ok but not the other?

Without knowing the background of people who call cryopreservation a long shot, or what they mean by that, I can't really comment. The only thing that absolutely has to be preserved via cryonics are the memories stored in your brain. All the rest is optional. That puts some hard limits on what is and isn't possible. We can't regenerate memories from DNA; it doesn't work that way. Not all speculative science is created equal. Some of it is just around the corner, and people who understand it already have a good idea how to make it work. Other things violate no known laws of physics, but no one has the foggiest clue how to do them. That would be "more speculative". Finally, some things violate known laws of physics. They aren't at all speculative, they are impossible. If someone wants to invest a large sum of money in something that is known to be impossible, under a belief that someday the laws of physics will be overturned and it will become possible, I would only say that there are probably better uses for that money.

[TheFountain]

What about the people who tell you cryopreservation is a long shot? Why should we look at organ regeneration any differently? There is absolutely no telling what we can do with a simple DNA strand, or what can be replicated in the future. Now yes, but we are talking about speculative science in the first place. So why is one form of speculative science ok but not the other?

The point being made with regard to Terry Schiavo is that she did not immediately lose any brain tissue as a result of five minutes of no blood flow. Tissue loss is a very long process performed by the body as the end stage of being unable to heal injured tissue even though the initial injury is very minor. So you don't need to worry about replacing (regenerating) any brain tissue in cryonics patients because of an interval of absent blood flow. Less drastic repairs can set things back on the right track while still likely preserving original tissue and memories stored therein.

However you are correct that tissue regeneration is an important part of the idea of cryonics, especially for neuropatients, and even for whole bodies patients for whom it may be easier to regrow new young organs than repair aged ones damaged by cryopreservation. Even brain tissue will need to be regenerated to repair traumatic brain injuries and the cerebral atrophy of aging. Here's a hypothetical revival scenario involving extensive tissue regeneration.

http://www.alcor.org...suscitation.htm

It can indeed be argued that with tissue regeneration included in the arsenal of revival technologies that everybody can be revived regardless of injury and that therefore no one is "hopeless." The caveat is that people who suffer severe injuries to the brain would only be able to be revived with partial memories of their past because of lost brain information. They wouldn't be permanently disabled like Terry Schiavo because their whole brain could be restored to biological health, but their personal identity would only partially overlap the original person. While our culture regards personal survival as a black-and-white binary question, whether we survive changes to ourselves from injury or even normal living over long spans of time is full of shades of grey.

There is actually an excellent, albeit seemingly ambivalent argument regarding the validity of the personality transference dilemma in a book titled 'the metaphysics of star trek' in which the author basically speaks about how transporters are used to disassemble the mechanisms and cells that determine our personal continuum, only to reassemble them with our continuum intact (again, speculative, but interesting).

This to me raises the question of whether or not personal memory is more than just dependent on our brain function. Maybe there is something beyond the nucleus of the cell, quantum in origin, that could be responsible for personal identity.

Edited by TheFountain, 29 June 2009 - 05:31 AM.