58 replies to this topic

[Singularity]

No Fancy Schmancy Reasons Here

[goodman]

this can be scientifically explained by the schema of childlike characteristics, a protective mechanism of nature..
no sign of god anywhere, or did I miss anything?

[Singularity]

this can be scientifically explained by the schema of childlike characteristics, a protective mechanism of nature..
no sign of god anywhere, or did I miss anything?

Yes, you missed something... but it was the right something. Good man.

[ImmortalityFreedom]

No Fancy Schmancy Reasons Here

Thats just the media, look, children in Africa are dying every second, don't ignore that fact. Ok, If I was a god, I would wish all the best to the people, but that hasn't happened, think back to the Hollocaust, millions of people died there just because of their Jewish fate and ethnicity. Miracles happen every now and then, and maybe Karma does exist like a negative and positive energy, but if god was looking down at us, it would be a perfect world. But I don't think there is a god just because of the fact that many people who have suffered a lot like Elie Wiesiel (a holocaust survivor) who wrote the book Night about his completley terrifying and horrific expierence at the concentration camp Autchwits, who has given up his faith because he absolutley cannot believe how this can be let to happen. God is a way of dealing with things phsycologicly meaning that you will find hope, thats a good thing though but when we die, we die.

[Athanasios]

At first, I thought you were going to point to belief in belief.

Now, I don't know why I thought that.

Cool vid though.

[Mind]

felines and primates have a long history of living together.

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[cyborgdreamer]

The fact that predators only try to kill prey animals 99.9 percent of the time isn't evidence for a benevalent God (no matter how adorable the other .1% may be ).

[thestuffjunky]

No Fancy Schmancy Reasons Here

Thats just the media, look, children in Africa are dying every second, don't ignore that fact. Ok, If I was a god, I would wish all the best to the people, but that hasn't happened, think back to the Hollocaust, millions of people died there just because of their Jewish fate and ethnicity. Miracles happen every now and then, and maybe Karma does exist like a negative and positive energy, but if god was looking down at us, it would be a perfect world. But I don't think there is a god just because of the fact that many people who have suffered a lot like Elie Wiesiel (a holocaust survivor) who wrote the book Night about his completley terrifying and horrific expierence at the concentration camp Autchwits, who has given up his faith because he absolutley cannot believe how this can be let to happen. God is a way of dealing with things phsycologicly meaning that you will find hope, thats a good thing though but when we die, we die.

this is a post i made in a completely different subject forum... here is my thought
well, to start, religions were MADE as a comfort to not only hope the dead have somewhere nice to go, but also gave inspiration and ease to the believers(living). also, they didnt have sophisticated science. oh, thats right, cromagnaman discovered how to do an organ transplant, the romans discovered stem cell and DNA, and even better yet, the tribes of the amazon built super computers and nanotechnology and best of all cloning. so for all the believers out there, get real. ohh, god can make it rain, made all the stars(still being made today) time to through the OLE GOOD BOOK out... or are you afraid that god will damn you for defamation. science was persecuted for many of centuries way when ago because the churches needed money(mainly to buy candy to lure little boys in), so, they dismissed a new concept and said "you will all burn in hell if you follow this 'science". that alright, i'll be alive to see you 'godders' get buried and i'll be enjoying my vacation on Science Prime 4 in the Immortality System.

[kismet]

But I don't think there is a god just because of the fact that many people who have suffered a lot like Elie Wiesiel (a holocaust survivor) who wrote the book Night about his completley terrifying and horrific expierence at the concentration camp Autchwits, who has given up his faith because he absolutley cannot believe how this can be let to happen.

You are anthropomising god and confounding what you perceive to be good with god. There's no reason why god should be benevolent. May we're just  pieces in his little, sadistical play? Well, or maybe not... after all there's no evidence for any gods, so as a good scientists we should keep to the null hypothesis and wait until we can clarify the situation.

[Connor MacLeod]

But I don't think there is a god just because of the fact that many people who have suffered a lot like Elie Wiesiel (a holocaust survivor) who wrote the book Night about his completley terrifying and horrific expierence at the concentration camp Autchwits, who has given up his faith because he absolutley cannot believe how this can be let to happen.

You are anthropomising god and confounding what you perceive to be good with god. There's no reason why god should be benevolent. May we're just pieces in his little, sadistical play? Well, or maybe not... after all there's no evidence for any gods, so as a good scientists we should keep to the null hypothesis and wait until we can clarify the situation.

As good scientists we should avoid misusing statistical terminology: there is no such thing as "the null hypothesis."

[Lazarus Long]

As good scientists we should avoid misusing statistical terminology: there is no such thing as "the null hypothesis."

It is more correctly called the "Fallacy of the Burden of Proof" and refers to when the burden of proof is assigned to the wrong element. It is a valid aspect of the scientific method as well but in this case refers to the idea that the burden of proof is not on those that do not assert a god exists, it is is on those that do make such an assertion. Hence it is the theist's responsiblity to prove god's existence, not the atheists responsibility to prove it doesn't.

[100YearsToGo]

No Fancy Schmancy Reasons Here

Thats just the media, look, children in Africa are dying every second, don't ignore that fact. Ok, If I was a god, I would wish all the best to the people, but that hasn't happened, think back to the Hollocaust, millions of people died there just because of their Jewish fate and ethnicity. Miracles happen every now and then, and maybe Karma does exist like a negative and positive energy, but if god was looking down at us, it would be a perfect world. But I don't think there is a god just because of the fact that many people who have suffered a lot like Elie Wiesiel (a holocaust survivor) who wrote the book Night about his completley terrifying and horrific expierence at the concentration camp Autchwits, who has given up his faith because he absolutley cannot believe how this can be let to happen. God is a way of dealing with things phsycologicly meaning that you will find hope, thats a good thing though but when we die, we die.

Suffering has been the christian way. Do you think the apostles died happily in bed? Real christians do not see suffering as the will of God. They suffer happily for God and christ promoting the kingdom. Their reward will come later. Suffering in the world is caused by the opposer. Why does God let the opposer live? To test your mettle!


TG I'm not a christian!

Edited by 100YearsToGo, 04 August 2009 - 09:32 PM.

[kismet]

As good scientists we should avoid misusing statistical terminology: there is no such thing as "the null hypothesis."

Explain, please. My statistics knowledge sucks, but I was pretty almost sure I used the term correctly either from a statistical or colloquial POV.

[Connor MacLeod]

As good scientists we should avoid misusing statistical terminology: there is no such thing as "the null hypothesis."

Explain, please. My statistics knowledge sucks, but I was pretty almost sure I used the term correctly either from a statistical or colloquial POV.

I don't know about the colloquial usage: if it exists and is used with any frequency then I am opposed to it as I think it must add to people's misunderstanding of statistics: if we are serious about science and science education then we should try to avoid misusing scientific terminology. As far as the statistical usage goes, what is chosen to be the null hypothesis comes down to a number of issues, including the nature of the motivating decision problem, the costs of the various errors, prior knowledge/belief, along with considerations of mathematical convenience, etc. There is no formal logical argument which provides "the null hypothesis." However, contrary to your usage, it is actually usually the case that the null hypothesis is the thing that you are trying disprove, or suspect is false.

[Shiroe]

I think the Universe is excellent proof that God Itself exists. In fact I would go so far as to say the Universe and all its dimensions ARE God.

Our first big mistake as a species is what Kismet correctly pointed out, that we tend to anthropomorphize God and ascribe to him "good" and "evil." Now, this is a very natural course for humans to take, since the idea is to relate to what the concept of God stands for, and what can humans relate to better than other humans? But people who believe in a sentient deity tend to forget that there are other sentient life forms on our planet alone, much less on other worlds.

There is also a certain responsibility that humans as a whole don't want to take. It's too big for most people to take responsibility for their actions, or to accept the actions of others, at which point God becomes a coping mechanism who one can blame ("It's God's will") or praise ("God was watching me") as needed. It certainly saves humans from taking responsibility for their own actions, but also prevents them from taking credit for them.

But the main reason I believe in God Itself at all is not because I want an explanation for everything. We have science for that. God Itself is both the atoms/superstrings/whatever we are made of, as well as the force that binds those materials together. Because we are all made of the same basic materials, this provides a connection between me and everything else. I've trained myself over time to be consciously aware of that connection, which manifests in my actions - how I interact with the environment, other people, and other forms of life (such as our spoiled kittens).

However, this is not to say I have issues with atheists and agnostics. My ideas about God were formed by meditation and a basic (VERY basic) understanding of quantum physics. Atheists and agnostics have their own "gods," though they would never recognize them as such. Many of them can relate to what I am saying without being forced by dogma to call it a deity. One does not have to recognize a Supreme Being to recognize a Supreme Force, and I think we can all agree that there are many forces we are subjected to on a daily basis that justifies that.

The problem of God lies simply in how we as individuals relate to everything outside our heads. Some people just choose the simple route that explains everything, and for others, the idea of God is barely scratching the surface of what's really out there.

[Shoe]

If this is the reason why people believe in a god, then people aren't thinking hard enough.

[Ben]

So as a good scientists we should keep to the null hypothesis and wait until we can clarify the situation.

I don't the idea of the null hypothesis applies here though. If we agree that G-d is infinite then, either way, it can't be proven and a burden of proof can't be greater if choosing the absence of a G-d.

[Luna]

aww that's so cute

[Daytona0blongata]

I think singularity was trying to point out the reverse ad hominem fallacy made frequently by people who either observe a situation like that, or are placed into a similar situation. They would then come to the direct conclusion that if that was feasible, then a god must exist.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Reeve Treaty]

Dammit! You again Singularity? Go away. You're an embarrassment to atheists.

[Teixeira]

No Fancy Schmancy Reasons Here

Thats just the media, look, children in Africa are dying every second, don't ignore that fact. Ok, If I was a god, I would wish all the best to the people, but that hasn't happened, think back to the Hollocaust, millions of people died there just because of their Jewish fate and ethnicity. Miracles happen every now and then, and maybe Karma does exist like a negative and positive energy, but if god was looking down at us, it would be a perfect world. But I don't think there is a god just because of the fact that many people who have suffered a lot like Elie Wiesiel (a holocaust survivor) who wrote the book Night about his completley terrifying and horrific expierence at the concentration camp Autchwits, who has given up his faith because he absolutley cannot believe how this can be let to happen. God is a way of dealing with things phsycologicly meaning that you will find hope, thats a good thing though but when we die, we die.

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

Edited by Teixeira, 06 January 2010 - 12:18 PM.

[CerebralCortex]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Edited by CerebralCortex, 06 January 2010 - 03:37 PM.

[Teixeira]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Imagine this two options:
- My father give me a Ferrari by surprise. Without any effort, any hard work, just like that!
- I work hard, make some extra hours, spare a lot of money. and after some years I buy the Ferrari.
Now, what do you think is the way that would give me more satisfaction?
If somebody gives me something I have no merit. But if I conquer something -good- with effort, that makes me feel good. And this makes all the diference!
That´s why God didn´t just gave us Heaven, He "forced" us to conquer it with our own effort!! And that is absolutly marvelous and much better than beeing there all the time!

[Dorho]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Imagine this two options:
- My father give me a Ferrari by surprise. Without any effort, any hard work, just like that!
- I work hard, make some extra hours, spare a lot of money. and after some years I buy the Ferrari.
Now, what do you think is the way that would give me more satisfaction?
If somebody gives me something I have no merit. But if I conquer something -good- with effort, that makes me feel good. And this makes all the diference!
That´s why God didn´t just gave us Heaven, He "forced" us to conquer it with our own effort!! And that is absolutly marvelous and much better than beeing there all the time!

You forgot about the third alternative that CerebralCortex is talking about: I work hard, make some extra hours, try to spare a lot of money but fail to buy a ferrari because my father has made the rules and he doesn't want me to have a Ferrari. Imagine all the people who have born in the wrong place in the wrong time and were denied or mistaught the only religion that will save them (-> insert the religion of your choice here). According to just about every potentially dangerous religion, those people will suffer eternity because they believe in a different invisible being than you do.

Edited by Dorho, 08 January 2010 - 07:51 AM.

[Luna]

*pokes Dorho and CerebralCortex*

Why bother? O_o

[CerebralCortex]

*pokes Dorho and CerebralCortex*

Why bother? O_o

True

[Teixeira]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Imagine this two options:
- My father give me a Ferrari by surprise. Without any effort, any hard work, just like that!
- I work hard, make some extra hours, spare a lot of money. and after some years I buy the Ferrari.
Now, what do you think is the way that would give me more satisfaction?
If somebody gives me something I have no merit. But if I conquer something -good- with effort, that makes me feel good. And this makes all the diference!
That´s why God didn´t just gave us Heaven, He "forced" us to conquer it with our own effort!! And that is absolutly marvelous and much better than beeing there all the time!

You forgot about the third alternative that CerebralCortex is talking about: I work hard, make some extra hours, try to spare a lot of money but fail to buy a ferrari because my father has made the rules and he doesn't want me to have a Ferrari. Imagine all the people who have born in the wrong place in the wrong time and were denied or mistaught the only religion that will save them (-> insert the religion of your choice here). According to just about every potentially dangerous religion, those people will suffer eternity because they believe in a different invisible being than you do.

I´m not discussing religions here, I´m discussing God´s "modus operandi".

[Teixeira]

You are missing the point. God pointed to the wright way. Men choose the wrong way and they new there were serious consequences about that choice. So, don´t blame God of the consequences of the wrong choices of Man! If we are in trouble, that´s our problem, it were our choices!
That´s more or less like this that we give education to our children about waht´s good and bad. And some times we have to punished them, for their own sake.
But you may say that some crimes are absolutly horrible. Yes, but that is the evil of Man in action, it´s not God´s desire. And why does God permit it? God has His own time to action and that, it´s not our business, it´s God´s business, and we are not suposed to tell God when or why He must act!!

If we are within a closed system created by God, a system that he knows everything about because of his omniscience and system of which he can change at will because he is omnipotent, then how can we have any choices? That is to say, how can we have choices that he didn't already know we were going to make because he designed everything that way. Look God is omniscient which means he knows everything. He knew when he created us what we would do without us having any choice in the matter therefore he is solely responsible for everything that we do because he created that way.

For example God created the devil, remember he knows everything, everything that was and will be, so he created Lucifer knowing full well he'd turn into the devil, he knew this would happen therefore he intended it to happen therefore he created the devil.

Imagine this two options:
- My father give me a Ferrari by surprise. Without any effort, any hard work, just like that!
- I work hard, make some extra hours, spare a lot of money. and after some years I buy the Ferrari.
Now, what do you think is the way that would give me more satisfaction?
If somebody gives me something I have no merit. But if I conquer something -good- with effort, that makes me feel good. And this makes all the diference!
That´s why God didn´t just gave us Heaven, He "forced" us to conquer it with our own effort!! And that is absolutly marvelous and much better than beeing there all the time!

You forgot about the third alternative that CerebralCortex is talking about: I work hard, make some extra hours, try to spare a lot of money but fail to buy a ferrari because my father has made the rules and he doesn't want me to have a Ferrari. Imagine all the people who have born in the wrong place in the wrong time and were denied or mistaught the only religion that will save them (-> insert the religion of your choice here). According to just about every potentially dangerous religion, those people will suffer eternity because they believe in a different invisible being than you do.

"but fail to buy a ferrari because my father has made the rules and he doesn't want me to have a Ferrari." In the first place God want´s everybody salvation (unless those who don´t want to be saved); in the second place, salvation does not depend on a specific religion bud depends directly from God. So your argument is not applicable.

[NeverSayDie]

The belief in God is a survival anxiety coping mechanism. It was born out of our evolutionary rise of self awareness. At this point in our evolutionary past, we became the first animal to become truly self-aware and to develop a concept of time. The linking of these two aspects (self-awareness and time) led eventually to the knowledge of our ultimate mortality. In other words, we are the first animal that became aware that we will one day die.

This deep-seated anxiety spawns many things- religion, the belief in a savior god, and every attempt at our outright denial of the inevitable. This same anxiety would, eventually, even be the impetus behind this very website.

God (and religion) are desperate inventions of terribly frightened, alienated, existentially anxiety ridden consciousness. These pretenses served their purposes for some. Fears were temporarily allayed as people tried feverishly to convince themselves that "death" would one day be overcome by some diety in the sky and they would all live happily ever after for all of eternity.

Humans have reached a point now in our evolution where we can consciously psychologically evolve. The time is now to put fairy tales behind us and move into a collective age of truth and reason and away from superstition and the brutality that it almost invariably produces.

Edited by NeverSayDie, 09 January 2010 - 03:14 PM.

[Teixeira]

The belief in God is a survival anxiety coping mechanism. It was born out of our evolutionary rise of self awareness. At this point in our evolutionary past, we became the first animal to become truly self-aware and to develop a concept of time. The linking of these two aspects (self-awareness and time) led eventually to the knowledge of our ultimate mortality. In other words, we are the first animal that became aware that we will one day die.

This deep-seated anxiety spawns many things- religion, the belief in a savior god, and every attempt at our outright denial of the inevitable. This same anxiety would, eventually, even be the impetus behind this very website.

God (and religion) are desperate inventions of terribly frightened, alienated, existentially anxiety ridden consciousness. These pretenses served their purposes for some. Fears were temporarily allayed as people tried feverishly to convince themselves that "death" would one day be overcome by some diety in the sky and they would all live happily ever after for all of eternity.

Humans have reached a point now in our evolution where we can consciously psychologically evolve. The time is now to put fairy tales behind us and move into a collective age of truth and reason and away from superstition and the brutality that it almost invariably produces.

You have ideas and I have facts. And between facts and ideas I choose the facts. Am I wrong?
(See my posts and try to understand something about what I´ve told you)