38 replies to this topic

[amonavis]

Hello Eva! I have a sunscreen question. I was wondering firstly about Tinosorb. Up to what wavelength does it provide protection? Does it provide protection until 400, or further?

Secondly, What would you recommend more, A combination of Mexoryl XL and SX as in La Roche Posay's Anthelios 50+, or the Avene Emulsion 50+ with Tinosorb? I was wondering which is more effective and protects against UVA rays better.

Do you think that Blue Lizard sensitive skin sunscreen SPF 30 with 10% Zinc Oxide and 5% Ti Dioxide is as good as the aforementioned european sunscreens? The good thing about physical blockers, as far as I understand, is that they can provide protection well past 400 nm. Is this true?

Also, do we need to worry about wavelengths over 400nm?

Thanks as always for your info.

Edited by amonavis, 09 July 2009 - 11:17 PM.

[immortali457]

Hello Eva! I have a sunscreen question. I was wondering firstly about Tinosorb. Up to what wavelength does it provide protection? Does it provide protection until 400, or further?

Secondly, What would you recommend more, A combination of Mexoryl XL and SX as in La Roche Posay's Anthelios 50+, or the Avene Emulsion 50+ with Tinosorb? I was wondering which is more effective and protects against UVA rays better.

Do you think that Blue Lizard sensitive skin sunscreen SPF 30 with 10% Zinc Oxide and 5% Ti Dioxide is as good as the aforementioned european sunscreens? The good thing about physical blockers, as far as I understand, is that they can provide protection well past 400 nm. Is this true?

Also, do we need to worry about wavelengths over 400nm?

Thanks as always for your info.

She's answered these questions in the archives. No way would she say Blue Lizzard compares.

[nancyd]

Tinsorb is better than mexoryl for the long range UVA rays. However, supposedly it's easier to achieve a very high PPD rating using mexoryl. Very high PPD ratings that are achieved by sunscreens that use tinsorb (such as Bioderma) rely on avobenzone for the rating. On another board layering Avene Emulsion with a physical ss on top is popular.

Edited by nancyd, 10 July 2009 - 04:32 AM.

[jessicantique]

Tinsorb is better than mexoryl for the long range UVA rays. However, supposedly it's easier to achieve a very high PPD rating using mexoryl. Very high PPD ratings that are achieved by sunscreens that use tinsorb (such as Bioderma) rely on avobenzone for the rating. On another board layering Avene Emulsion with a physical ss on top is popular.

so that's tinsorb + zno +tio2?
i am now using bioderma formula, tinsorb + avo,
i am reapplying it every 2-3 hours, thus you can imagin if the chemicals in the sunscreen are really sinking into my skin or there's any adverse checmical reactions happen , then i don't know whether this frequent reapplying is worth it.
i have tampted to change to physical suncreen, however, the uva protection is limited, around ppd 10?

[jessicantique]

i also want to know, if staying inside close to a window at a distance around 1 meter, with the blinds of the window pulled down, how much uva am i going to get?
however, i still can see significant of sunlight pass through the blinds.

if i am not using retin A , i will not be that uv-phobia

[nancyd]

so that's tinsorb + zno +tio2?
i am now using bioderma formula, tinsorb + avo,
i am reapplying it every 2-3 hours, thus you can imagin if the chemicals in the sunscreen are really sinking into my skin or there's any adverse checmical reactions happen , then i don't know whether this frequent reapplying is worth it.
i have tampted to change to physical suncreen, however, the uva protection is limited, around ppd 10?

ZnO is better than titanium dioxide. The layer is helpful if you don't want to reapply. I use Bioderma too and I've heard conflicting views on whether it's ok to layer a physical ss over this since it contains avobenzone. I always use to hear never to mix the two, but recently someone said recent studies show ZnO may actually increases avobenzone's protection when used together. I'm still hesitant to try it in case it's not true.

Edited by nancyd, 11 July 2009 - 03:04 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

Hello Eva! I have a sunscreen question. I was wondering firstly about Tinosorb. Up to what wavelength does it provide protection? Does it provide protection until 400, or further?

Secondly, What would you recommend more, A combination of Mexoryl XL and SX as in La Roche Posay's Anthelios 50+, or the Avene Emulsion 50+ with Tinosorb? I was wondering which is more effective and protects against UVA rays better.

Do you think that Blue Lizard sensitive skin sunscreen SPF 30 with 10% Zinc Oxide and 5% Ti Dioxide is as good as the aforementioned european sunscreens? The good thing about physical blockers, as far as I understand, is that they can provide protection well past 400 nm. Is this true?

Also, do we need to worry about wavelengths over 400nm?

Thanks as always for your info.

http://www.imminst.o...-2h-t20357.html (Tinosorb brochure linked further down)

http://www.imminst.o...een-t26609.html

http://www.imminst.o...008-t25351.html

http://www.imminst.o...een-t22856.html

http://www.imminst.o...ded-t20201.html

http://www.imminst.o...day-t20109.html

http://www.imminst.o...ous-t20235.html

[amonavis]

Does anyone know if visible light ie: over 400nm can cause skin damage too?

[Matthias]

Thanks Eva and to everyone else for your responses. I am still not clear on one thing though. Does anyone believe that visible light, ie over 400 nm, can cause aging? Can rays at 500 nm, for example, degrade our collagen and elastin too?

(edited by Matthias: Amonavis, here is the missing post. You pressed the instead of the -Button ;-)

Edited by Matthias, 18 July 2009 - 09:17 AM.

[VesperLynd]

[On another board layering Avene Emulsion with a physical ss on top is popular. )

What would be the additional benefit of that?

Thanks, VL

[Eva Victoria]

[On another board layering Avene Emulsion with a physical ss on top is popular. )

What would be the additional benefit of that?

Thanks, VL

Higher UVA and UVB protection

[Eva Victoria]

Does anyone know if visible light ie: over 400nm can cause skin damage too?

Some scientist say so.
There is a topic about it somewhere on this forum by Fredrik?

Some dermatologist say that by using physical sunscreens (ZnO, TiO2, Aluminium Oxide in higher concentration) you not only protect your skin against the sun but also against possible damage from visible light.

[VesperLynd]

Thank you Eva for your reply.

The same American dermatologist, Dr. Shultz, had this to say about Tinosorb when I asked him:


Tinosorb-based sunscreens may confer an advantage over chem-free or physical sunscreens. Tinosorb is allegedly (not proven, new, not FDA appoved, not available in US) the most effective UV protection available for both UVA and UVB rays, according to a 2007 study published in the European journal Pharmazie. It is not just a physical sunscreen that prevents UV rays from hitting the skin, or just a chemical sunscreen that prevents transmitted rays from damaging the skin, but instead, works as both, shielding and protecting the skin. In terms of PPD (persistent pigment darkening, the new test for UV A efficacy) rating, our current physical sunscreens have PPD ratings of 16 and higher which is very good so I'm not sure yet if Tinosorb will deliver meaningful increased clinical protection as opposed to a higher lab number that doesn't really translate into meaningful additional sunprotection (like increasing SPF from 30 to 100...which only increases UV B protection 3 or 4%....which I don't know what that really means for my skin). Based on current studies, it does not seem that long-term exposure to Tinosorb has any damaging effects, nor does it seem that irritation is common. Still, Tinosorb is a relatively new ingredient, and further studies need to be done to determine the ingredient’s true side effects, if any. Stay tuned!!

He mentions physical sunscreens with PPD ratings of 16 and higher - do we know what brands/formulations might fall into that category?

Thanks! VL

[Eva Victoria]

Thank you Eva for your reply.

The same American dermatologist, Dr. Shultz, had this to say about Tinosorb when I asked him:


Tinosorb-based sunscreens may confer an advantage over chem-free or physical sunscreens. Tinosorb is allegedly (not proven, new, not FDA appoved, not available in US) the most effective UV protection available for both UVA and UVB rays, according to a 2007 study published in the European journal Pharmazie. It is not just a physical sunscreen that prevents UV rays from hitting the skin, or just a chemical sunscreen that prevents transmitted rays from damaging the skin, but instead, works as both, shielding and protecting the skin. In terms of PPD (persistent pigment darkening, the new test for UV A efficacy) rating, our current physical sunscreens have PPD ratings of 16 and higher which is very good so I'm not sure yet if Tinosorb will deliver meaningful increased clinical protection as opposed to a higher lab number that doesn't really translate into meaningful additional sunprotection (like increasing SPF from 30 to 100...which only increases UV B protection 3 or 4%....which I don't know what that really means for my skin). Based on current studies, it does not seem that long-term exposure to Tinosorb has any damaging effects, nor does it seem that irritation is common. Still, Tinosorb is a relatively new ingredient, and further studies need to be done to determine the ingredient's true side effects, if any. Stay tuned!!

He mentions physical sunscreens with PPD ratings of 16 and higher - do we know what brands/formulations might fall into that category?

Thanks! VL

This quote must refer to Tinosorb M. Not to be confused with Tinosorb S!
Tinosorb M has higher than 1 ratio of UVA/UVB protection! ZnO has about 0.9.
It is indeed a very good UVA and partially UVB filter.
It is used in sunscreens from Pierre Fabre group (like Avene); Roc (EU version).

Here are some files about Tinosorb M for further info.

Attached Files

•  Tinosorb_M_Brochure.pdf   524.02KB   43 downloads
•  TinosorbM_efficacy.pdf   111.73KB   63 downloads
•  TinosorbM_compared_to_other_UV_filters.pdf   105.16KB   214 downloads

[VesperLynd]

Hi Nancyd - question - can you let us know the name of the other forum where sunscreens (you mentioned layering the Avene) are discussed?

Thank you, VL

[sdxl]

This quote must refer to Tinosorb M. Not to be confused with Tinosorb S!

No, I'm pretty sure this Dr. doesn't exactly know what he's talking about. The study I think he's referring to (PMID 17663193) shows Tinosorb S is clearly better in terms of SPF, not Tinosorb M.

[Eva Victoria]

This quote must refer to Tinosorb M. Not to be confused with Tinosorb S!

No, I'm pretty sure this Dr. doesn't exactly know what he's talking about. The study I think he's referring to (PMID 17663193) shows Tinosorb S is clearly better in terms of SPF, not Tinosorb M.

I think this Dr does mix Tinosorb S and Tinosorb M. Maybe he believes it is one sunscreen agent.

"the most effective UV protection available for both UVA and UVB rays, according to a 2007 study published in the European journal Pharmazie. It is not just a physical sunscreen that prevents UV rays from hitting the skin, or just a chemical sunscreen that prevents transmitted rays from damaging the skin, but instead, works as both, shielding and protecting the skin."

Tinosorb S only absorbs UV light as all organic filters do.
However, Tinosorb M scatters UV light exactly the same way as physical sunscreens but in the same time it absorbs UV light as well. Besides it is inherently photostable just like physical filters.

"the most effective UV protection available for both UVA and UVB rays"
Is indeed about Tinosorb S.

[hogseel]

A question for Eva
I have spent four hours today reading through your posts which are all super informative. I am a bit concerned that some of the information I have read might be out of date as some posts are several years old and there are so many new products. I am a new user of RetinA and therefore looking for a daily sunscreen, I am also using TriLuma for melasma following pregnancy. My dermatologist was not helpful with sunscreen. I work in an office, have sensitive skin. For deliberate sunlight exposure I have always used the Anthelios range. From your posts I see you don't object to Fluide Extreme and Avene Minerale SPF50. I went and bought these but am now wondering if they are too heavy duty for my skin as I am inside all day and will lead to unnecessary exposure of my sensitive skin to the mexoryl etc. I should add I live and work on the equator. If you have any thoughts I would be so grateful, tusen takk.

[amonavis]

Eva, I was wondering, based on the chemistry of Tinosorb, does my Avene Emulsion need to make direct contact with clean skin to be its most effective or can I layover it over other creams like my Niacinamide cream? Should I treat it more like a chemical sunscreen and put it on before anything else, or more like a physical sunscreen and apply over top of my other products? Thanks

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, I was wondering, based on the chemistry of Tinosorb, does my Avene Emulsion need to make direct contact with clean skin to be its most effective or can I layover it over other creams like my Niacinamide cream? Should I treat it more like a chemical sunscreen and put it on before anything else, or more like a physical sunscreen and apply over top of my other products? Thanks

You should always apply sunscreen as the last step in your skin care regime. No matter what type of sunscreen you use.
all sunscreens can be applied on top of other products provided the skin is dry.

[Eva Victoria]

A question for Eva
I have spent four hours today reading through your posts which are all super informative. I am a bit concerned that some of the information I have read might be out of date as some posts are several years old and there are so many new products. I am a new user of RetinA and therefore looking for a daily sunscreen, I am also using TriLuma for melasma following pregnancy. My dermatologist was not helpful with sunscreen. I work in an office, have sensitive skin. For deliberate sunlight exposure I have always used the Anthelios range. From your posts I see you don't object to Fluide Extreme and Avene Minerale SPF50. I went and bought these but am now wondering if they are too heavy duty for my skin as I am inside all day and will lead to unnecessary exposure of my sensitive skin to the mexoryl etc. I should add I live and work on the equator. If you have any thoughts I would be so grateful, tusen takk.

Hi Hogsell,

Thank you very much for you reading my previous posts.
If you live at the Equator maybe it is the best to use a high sunscreen regardless you work in an office.
You should avoid as much sun exposure as possible. Even if you are outside for a little time it is wise to cover up and wear a hat additionally to sunscreen.
If you think chemical sunscreens are heavy for your skin, I would recommend Bioderma Minarale Sunscreen SPF 50+ UVA 22. If it should be too whitening, it is not the worst to use any other physical sunscreen that you like. a bit is still better than none.
At the worst there are some very nice sunscreens out there with a beautiful finish, not so good UVA protection but still more than nothing. Chanel UV escencielle SPF 50 or La Mer The UV fluid SPF 30 still contain 9-10% ZnO (beside 7.5% OMC) that will provide 90% protection against UVA rays.
I do not recommend these officially because their horrendous price and also because they do contain parfume. But even I have to admit that they do have a very nice cosmetically acceptable finish!

[amonavis]

Eva, I was wondering, based on the chemistry of Tinosorb, does my Avene Emulsion need to make direct contact with clean skin to be its most effective or can I layover it over other creams like my Niacinamide cream? Should I treat it more like a chemical sunscreen and put it on before anything else, or more like a physical sunscreen and apply over top of my other products? Thanks

You should always apply sunscreen as the last step in your skin care regime. No matter what type of sunscreen you use.
all sunscreens can be applied on top of other products provided the skin is dry.

Thanks for the reply. I thought that using moisturizing products underneath could dilute the concentration of the active ingredients in a chemical sunscreen though?

[nancyd]

pls delete. I basically posted the same question as above at the same time.

Edited by nancyd, 20 August 2009 - 03:14 AM.

[Eva Victoria]

Eva, I was wondering, based on the chemistry of Tinosorb, does my Avene Emulsion need to make direct contact with clean skin to be its most effective or can I layover it over other creams like my Niacinamide cream? Should I treat it more like a chemical sunscreen and put it on before anything else, or more like a physical sunscreen and apply over top of my other products? Thanks

You should always apply sunscreen as the last step in your skin care regime. No matter what type of sunscreen you use.
all sunscreens can be applied on top of other products provided the skin is dry.

Thanks for the reply. I thought that using moisturizing products underneath could dilute the concentration of the active ingredients in a chemical sunscreen though?

Not if your moisturizer has had time to be absorbed by your skin before applying sunscreen.
You should wait at least 10 min before applying susncreen after moisturizer.

[VesperLynd]

Don't the ingredients of the chemical sunscreen need to interact with the skin in order to be effective?


VL

[Eva Victoria]

Don't the ingredients of the chemical sunscreen need to interact with the skin in order to be effective?


VL

Sunscreen ingredients should be formulated into a formulation that will form an even film on the top of the skin. Sunscreen ingredients (Organic) will then filter out the rays of the sun while physical sunscreen agents will reflect, scatter UV light.
Some sunscreen agents like Tinosorb M filters and scatters UV light.

[TheFountain]

Eva I have a question about Avene Emulsion spf40. I spotted some on Ebay for about 15$ and am wanting to grab it but am wondering if I should be weary of the possibility of the filters being destroyed by the heat in transit, since it is summer in the U.S still. It would be arriving from Ireland. I also saw some Bioderma Minerale which I am considering but it is a couple dollars more. Would the Bioderma have a better chance of surviving the heat undamaged than the Avene Emulsion? Also, which is better for sensitive, tretinoin treated skin?

Edited by TheFountain, 26 August 2009 - 12:53 AM.

[hogseel]

thank you so much

[okok]

Hi Eva, thanks for your time and effort.

I have a ZiO TiO2 blend powder for self preparation. Is there a way to diminish the whitening effect, as these mineral filters are really not suited for social settings. Would dying/toning/covering the powder defeat the purpose?

[VesperLynd]

More information on this topic:

http://www.dermtv.co...sunscreen-first