We shall have a chat each night this week starting at 8pm EST
http://www.imminst.org/chatCHAT ARCHIVE Sunday Feb 22
<John_McCluskey> BJ, would you care to give a background statement on the Alcor situation?
<TimFreeman> Quoting
http://www.alcor.org...ativealert.html "Although fifty legislators signed on as co-sponsors, we are finding as we contact them one by one that the support for this legislation may be a mile wide, but it is only ...
<TimFreeman> an inch deep. Most of the co-sponsors with whom we've spoken are saying that they did it as a favor to the sponsor, Representative Stump, and would likely vote against it in its current form in committee or on the floor."
<John_Ventureville> Stump is someone who could be a wily adversary
<BJKlein> John_McCluskey, yes.. Alcor is now faced with governmental regulation problems from the state of AZ
<BJKlein> davidbe, the chat will be archived to imminst in a few hrs
<hkhenson> do you know how bad the regulation is going to be from the bill?
<John_McCluskey> I wrote an email to Bob Stump a few hours ago, pointing out that the worst he could do would be to chase Alcor out of Arizona.
<John_Ventureville> Stump is a Harvard grad who was mentored by George F. Will, a leading national conservative
<hkhenson> i.e., does it follow the intend of the board member who was going to put alcor out of business?
<thefirstimmortal> yes, baddddd
<BJKlein> worst case scenario = alcor would have to stop opperations in 5yrs because of harsh funeral regulations
<davidbe> We don't know how bad the regulation would be. That's the problem. There are no safeguards for the rights of Alcor members or patients.
<FutureQ> Thhere it is, the "C" word!
<FutureQ> Gaaaah!!
<davidbe> No, it would take effect December 31 of this year, not 5 years from now.
<sjvan> The 5 years is retroactive
<gustavo> conservatives are the enemies of immortalists
<hkhenson> could alcor get out of arizona in that time?
<John_McCluskey> I pointed out that if Alcor someday succeeds in reviving a member, or otherwise extracting a human personality from a brain, the Arizona chapter in Alcor history would be shameful.
<davidbe> We would have to be licensed as a funeral establishment by Dec. 31.
<hkhenson> if so where would they go?
<John_Ventureville> as I understand it, within 5 years they could say for any reason Alcor could not store a body for any longer than five years!
<thefirstimmortal> Moving will not matter
<BJKlein> wow.. sjvan.. that's not good
<BJKlein> thanks for the clairficaiton
<thefirstimmortal> Legislation will follow wherever they go
<davidbe> No, it applies on Dec. 31 to any body or part that has already been stored for more than five years.
<John_Ventureville> retroactive!
<hkhenson> true perhaps.
<FutureQ> Conservatives boast about being for small gov but as soon as their ideas for morality come into it they're more than happy to expand gov to the breaking point to shove it down your thorat! I hate em.
<hkhenson> but it might take a while to go through all the states.
<thefirstimmortal> Aside from calling and e-mailing, isthere anything else that we can do????
<BJKlein> picket
<hkhenson> so davidbe, what is the intent? to run alcor out?
<John_Ventureville> FutureQ, I totally agree with your view on conservatives
<Jonesey> by definition conservative means being opposed to change.
<davidbe> call, email, or fax.
<sjvan> "Two moves equals one fire" Mark Twain (I think)
<thefirstimmortal> How can we maximize the amount of calls, e-mail, ect.
<John_Ventureville> Stump has relatives in the funeral & mortuary industry
<John_McCluskey> I claim to be a conservative, at least where government spending and taxes are concerned.
<BJKlein> thefirstimmortal, we need to put together a legal team, to prepare for future such situations
<John_Ventureville> that must play into it
<davidbe> Especially the Republicans. The Democrats are clearly on our side.
<hkhenson> hmm
<BJKlein> anyone interested in the chat tonight.. email me: bjk@imminst.org
<BJKlein> on the creation of a ImmInst Legal Team
<TimFreeman> Don't spam the legislators. The lobbyist said it was important to provide reasoned, coordinated campaigning.
<davidbe> Yes, and no name calling. Be polite. Otherwise it just hurts us.
<John_Ventureville> Greg Burch's announcement of a future legal team to protect Alcor, etc. was GREAT news
<TimFreeman> And they would rationally ignore anyone outside of Arizona anyway. Don't come across as a jerk.
<TimFreeman> Where's the announcment?
<Jonesey> davidbe:so the email i just sent headlined "you a-hole" was counterproductive...maybe?
<davidbe> What was Greg Burch's announcement?
<FutureQ> there's a differenc ebetween fiscal and social the problem is the Repooplican party can't extract themselves from the ass of falwell and Co.
<BJKlein> ImmInst forum message from Alcor's Pres: Joe Waynick: We don't want to amend the bill. "We want to kill it. If we don't, it will kill us"
<BJKlein>
http://imminst.org/f...t=0<Jonesey> actually if you want to cut back gov't you are not being conservative. you're being kinda radical
<Jonesey> gov't growth is the norm
<John_Ventureville> for what it's worth, I faxed the legislators involved last night
<davidbe> People outside Arizona are affected. If this bill passes, Alcor will no longer be able to take legal possesion of your remains, whether you live in AZ or not!
<John_Ventureville> a four page fax!
<John_Ventureville> maybe too long, but I wanted to get my thoughts across
<davidbe> The Health Committee Republicans are the ones to contact.
<hkhenson> that will never be read.
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> maybe, maybe not
<davidbe> Anything over one page won't be read.
<John_Ventureville> the strangeness of the topic might just grab their interest
<hkhenson> david, is there any thoughts about suing?
<John_Ventureville> I asked them to respond
<thefirstimmortal> Can you all post what you write in the thread I started
<davidbe> It is no longer a strange topic, unless you outdid yourself.
<BJKlein> davidbe, are you with Alcor?
<John_Ventureville> so I look forward to seeing how many responses I actually get
<hkhenson> this has got to be in violation of a bunch of civil rights laws.
<TimFreeman> davidbe: But the point is that legislators inside Arizona aren't affected by people outside of Arizona.
<davidbe> Suing? If it passed, everything would be attempted. I don't know of specific plans.
<thefirstimmortal> Violation of the first and 14 amendment
<hkhenson> that's not entirely true tim.
<hkhenson> opposition people can get donations from outside arizona
<thefirstimmortal> Violation of personal autonomy laws
<davidbe> Hey, if they get a flood of emails, they know people are fired up over this. To my mind that would be a help.
<Jonesey> worst comes to worst alcor just merges with CI and all alcor management is fired. that would be awesome
<thefirstimmortal> violation of "due process"
<TimFreeman> hkhenson: Hmm, you're right there.
<sjvan> Suing is a ways away...it still has to pass committee, house, and senate...a lot of opportunites to stop it
<John_McCluskey> Jonesey... what about Alcor management? are there some problems there?
<davidbe> I am a volunteer for Alcor -- on their website and their Patient Care Trust Board.
<hkhenson> there is a guy who is behind this business.
<thefirstimmortal> Talk to me sjvan
<thefirstimmortal> where is it exactly in the process
<hkhenson> one thing to do would be to sue him. what he said was clearly illegal.
<BJKlein> sjvan, are you associated with Alcor per chance?
<davidbe> The best chance to stop it is the Health Committee though.
<sjvan> I on the board...so I'm watching my words very closely <grin>
<thefirstimmortal> agree, but if not, how much clock do we have?
<hkhenson> as a bet, suing the funeral board guy who made the first statements about regulating alcor out of existence would be a good start.
<Jonesey> John_McCluskey:they just seem to generally suck at marketing cryonics, very content with anemic growth rates. CI has grown a lot faster, surpassed alcor yr b4 last in size.
<Jonesey> plus all these nutty stories in the media that demonize cryoncis
<hkhenson> jonesey, who are you signed up with?
<thefirstimmortal> don't sue him, what are you kidding, he gave you a big legal gift by saying that
<sjvan> How large is CI now...I've never found a good answer
<Jonesey> hkh:I can't answer that, alcor opposes dual signups, yet another idiotic posture.
<hkhenson> ???
<Jonesey> !!!
<John_McCluskey> I've got to agree that CI has made a lot of progress, while Alcor seems to be slipping.
<hkhenson> you either have a contract with alcor or you don't
<Jonesey> over the long term, one of the biggest risks you have with any business org is default
<Jonesey> alcor will terminate any member they know to have membership with any other org
<TimFreeman> Dual signups are confusing. If you're signed up with both, then whose job is it to do the suspension?
<Jonesey> while CI allows dual membership for backup purposes
<FutureQ> Yeahm I win the lottery, I' signing up with both and donating a bunch, like that'll happen, but t
<Jonesey> that's easy, you name one.
<Jonesey> seem complex to you timfreeman?
<FutureQ> they'd not oppose it then.
<Jonesey> that's how CI does it. you tell em which is primary and which is backup and they're cool.
<Nuzz> What's happening with cryonics?
<BJKlein> CI has ~50 suspensions and ~500 members.. does that sound right?
<Jonesey> alcor on the other hand is anal
<Jonesey> sounds low bjk
<TimFreeman> Jonesey: So what do you mean by dual signup then, if exactly one organization is responsible?
<Jonesey> the other one is a backup in case primary goes under.
<Jonesey> even after suspension
<thefirstimmortal> OK, I gotta get back to my draft, so I can send it out first thing in the morning, I'll be up all night sould anyone want to get in touch, Live long and Well
<hkhenson> dual signups are off topic, sorry
<thefirstimmortal> PM me
<Jonesey> huh hkh?
<Jonesey> you ok over there?
<hkhenson> sorry I asked you
<sjvan> There is a clear place in Alcor paperwork to put a backup organization in case Alcor cannot continue the suspension
<Jonesey> yep sjvan
<FutureQ> bye TFM
<Jonesey> and yet they recently came out opposing it
<Jonesey> bizarre
<Jonesey> but typical alcor
<TimFreeman> Joensey: Can you cite where they came out opposing it?
<BJKlein> sjvan, is Alcor working on a plan if the legislation goes bad against us?
<FutureQ> yeah, that's a good idea
<John_McCluskey> Nevada or New Mexico... take your pick.
<Jonesey> TimFreeman: from ben best:
<Jonesey> In October I met with Jerry Lemler and Tanya Jones at the
<Jonesey> Alcor facility in Arizona to discuss inter-organizational relations.
<Jonesey> I raised the issue of dual memberships. Formerly, I believe that these were prohibited by CI, but we are now more tolerant of
<Jonesey> such memberships -- as long as they are disclosed.
<Jonesey>
<Jonesey> Jerry did not think dual memberships should be allowed.
<Jonesey> Tanya didn't seem to like the idea either. The issue had come up when I was with CryoCare and it seemed like the only solution would be for some third party to go through the confidential
<Jonesey> membership lists of both organizations looking for dual members.
<sjvan> Yes, but it depends on what you mean by "going bad"
<Jonesey> Neither Tanya nor Jerry liked the idea of third party involvement, which left us in the position of agreeing that there is no way we can know about dual memberships unless the members themselves disclose them to us. Our membership lists are confidential -- and not subject to inspection by third parties.
<BJKlein> sjvan, worse case = 5yr rule
<hkhenson> bj, alcor has to get rid of everyone there more or less than 5 years there?
<hkhenson> if the law passes
<davidbe> The so-called 5yr rule takes effect December 31, not in 5 years.
<BJKlein> from what i hear, it's if they're there for more than 5yrs
<sjvan> No, the proposed law states that only a an embalmer can keep a body or body parts for more than 5 years
<hkhenson> so everyone in longer than 5 years would be cremated?
<TimFreeman> Anyone have a URL for the proposed law?
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<hkhenson> or otherwise disposed of?
<Nuzz> I would take it to court
<davidbe> No, it only says that only an embalmer can store them for more than 5 years.
<FutureQ> Tht's just plain bullshit! that alone should be seen as a g]hostile intent not to regulaste but outright abolish. Would it behoove Alcor to denmamnd they speak, write legislation, plainly?
<davidbe>
http://www.azleg.sta...2Ehtm&DocType=B<sjvan> This would also seem to affect the UA. Barrow Neurological, museums, etc...
<davidbe> Yes, and the UA has come out against it. Could kill it unless they can come up with a fast fix.
<BJKlein> so, why is Stump really doing this?
*Ocsrazor* Just wanted to say hi real quick BJ before I take off
<FutureQ> Yes! And is Alcor applying to those that will be also affected to =gain their alliance?
<TimFreeman> UA stands for?
<BJKlein> Uni AZ
<John_McCluskey> Stumps father is an embalmer.
<sjvan> FutureQ - Yes
<BJKlein> ah really.. that's very interesting
<davidbe> We don't know why he is really doing it. There is a big disconnect between what he says about the bill (which is fairly reasonable sounding) and what the bill actually says.
<FutureQ> thx
<davidbe> UA=University of Arizona.
<sjvan> The bill places us at the mercy of the Funeral Board...even if it is benign now, you never know ehat might happen later
<mem> hi folks, sorry to be late, but technical difficulties interfered.
<mem> <-- Tanya
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<BJKlein> welcome Tanya
<mem> how's the discussion going? Found us any useful solutions?
<sjvan> Glad you got through...did I help?
<davidbe> Yes, we would be at their mercy. I could easily forsee being embroiled in constant lawsuits with them until we were broke.
<mem> nah, Todd made it go
<BJKlein> Tanya were learning why Stump is really doing this..
<hkhenson> Hi Tanya
<BJKlein> seems his fater is an embalmer
<davidbe> The only solution is to defeat it in the Health Committee.
<mem> Yes, there are many ways they can work to shut us down if this legislation passes.
<hkhenson> there are other ways.
<sjvan> No ideas we haven't talked about before Tanya...any others, folks?
<mem> We can defeat it in the Senate, which I've heard is a much more deliberating body.
<hkhenson> suing the head of the funeral board might be the best way to start. suing him *personally*
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<davidbe> I considered a hunger strike in Stump's office :-)
<Guest> Thanks for helping Tanya out Todd. I was not sure how to help on this end. Mathew
<BJKlein> heh.. picket may work eh?
<hkhenson> that gives all sorts of opportunity to find out what is going on
<sjvan> Sue him for what? Sating his opinion? I don't think it would go far.
<mem> We have the chance to remove it from the agenda for a while tomorrow, when we meet with the Chair of the health committee, but I don't have high hopes for this.
<hkhenson> and make them look really bad.
<John_McCluskey> Yah know... maybe somebody should invite the father of Rep. Stump for a tour of Alcor.. That could be an interesting back door for killing or neutering the bill.
<hkhenson> since the head made statement that are clearly in violation of civil rights laws
<davidbe> I wouldn't have high hopes for Gullett either. Maybe the UofA can get to her though.
<hkhenson> among other things
<mem> I'd rather not get into a mud-slinging contest.
<davidbe> Civil rights don't matter to these guys. Plus they have more money so can bleed us dry in constant legal battles.
<hkhenson> tanya, there are points to slinging a lot of mud really fast.
<mem> hehe, perhaps, but it's not my strong suit
<hkhenson> you get a reputation for being the kind of skunk that people just won't go after.
<sjvan> We have invited eveyone we could to come visit, including Stump.
<mem> Stump won't return our calls or respond to our emails.
<BJKlein> perhaps, someone knows of stump personally that we know?
<davidbe> although he has responded to some people by email on the subject.
<BJKlein> thrid party would be good avenue to contact
<TimFreeman> At one point Alcor was having a pending suspension Real Soon Now. Is that still hovering over you?
<Ocsrazor> Tanya I'm curious if John Sperling has any interest in the matter?
<mem> He has been speaking with other people, and there has been some suggestion that this freshman representative wants to introduce good legislation, but his lack of response to us seems to indicate otherwise.
<davidbe> I have a contingent from End of Life Choices visiting Hanson, also from District 9 like Stump, tomorrow. They will had deliver a letter from the Executive Director of End of Life Choices opposing the bill (and representing 2000 members).
<mem> Sperling is familiar with cryonics, and at least one of his aides has brought Alcor specifically to his attention, but he is not particularly interested as I hear it.
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<davidbe> Who is Sperling?
<Ocsrazor> Sperling - founder of U. Phoenix
<BJKlein> Sperling = Univ of Phoenix = 3 Billion to antiaging after death
<Ocsrazor> richest man in Arizona I believe
<sjvan> "after death"...isn't that too late?
<davidbe> Tanya, did Barry contact the U of A, or did they pick up on this on their own?
<mem> a man with a strong enough interest in life extension to commit multiple billions of dollars to research, there was an article in that last Wired magazine.
<BJKlein> ImmInst will have an Alcor chat each night starting at 8pm Eastern to discuss this all week
<FutureQ> Have Laughlin contacgt him, birds of a feather..
<mem> Not sure, I'm still trying to find out the answer to that.
<BJKlein> check imminst.org homepage for details tommorow
<John_McCluskey> Sperling story on Wired: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/immortal.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=
<mem> Not sure I can make it every night, we have a lot of meetings scheduled this week.
<davidbe> I would think so.
<BJKlein> Tanya.. will post the log to imminst as well
<mem> k, thanks
<BJKlein> but mainly for brainstorming
<mem> We did contact one of our friends at UA, and he may have forwarded the bill, since I asked him to contact the UA lobbyist by name.
<BJKlein> you guys did a great job with the alert though..
<BJKlein> covers all the points well.. talking points etc.
<TimFreeman> Any sign that the people reading your legislative alert are or are not presenting themselves well? Cryonicsists tend to be overbearing at times.
<davidbe> Did you follow up on that UA contact I gave you?
<mem> thanks, I re-wrote the docs provided by our lobbyist significantly, since they didn't seem to meet the needs of our particular audience.
<sjvan> Right now, the best thing for people to do is read the legislative alert on our we b page (www.alcor.org) and phone, fax email accordingly. Please be polite.
<davidbe> Agreed/
<Jonesey> TimFreeman:overbearing?? why, you little....
<mem> Hard to know, Tim. We have received only a few copies of the things people have sent.
<BJKlein> it's good to know that we have time.. even if this first stage goes bad...
<BJKlein> there is the house and senate.. right?
<mem> Yes, the first step is the House. The bill must pass both the Health Committee and Rules.
<BJKlein> i'd guess this bill would take months to pass?
<sjvan> What we have seen that people have sent has been reasonable...if a little long winded at times.
<davidbe> Alcor News bulletin just came out. If I take a break here I can get it on the website soon.
<mem> It could be significantly shorter a time than that, since Stump seems anxious to move this along.
<sjvan> Ordinarily it would take some time...but it pays to be a little paranoid
<hkhenson> like weeks?
<BJKlein> davidbe, you mean the alcor website right?
<mem> Don't think it's much different, David... just an expansion to address a few things that non-AZ members can do to help.
<mem> Unfortunately, I don't think we have much of a case for killing it in Rules, since the constitutionality of the bill is not in question (aside for the part about yanking our UAGA).
<hkhenson> I think a bill specifically *designed* to attack an identifyable group of people should be easy to attack in the courts.
<BJKlein> how did they get this bill up so fast i wonder...
<BJKlein> very underhanded
<mem> Not so, as I understand it. The only way we could defeat it on that count is if we can *later* prove that there is selective enforcement.
<mem> The bill would have to pass first.
<hkhenson> a court is going to require the state to show an urgent need to requlated alcor out of business.
<sjvan> Actually, a bill attacking an identifiable group is not particularly unusual, if you think about it.
<hkhenson> tanya, I don't think much of the lawyers you are using if that is the case.
<BJKlein> Tanya, do you guys have any relations with laywers groups in AZ?
<hkhenson> in any case, it doesn't matter.
<BJKlein> civil defense, etc..
<mem> Keith, our lawyers are giving us good advice on this bill. The problem is that there are other matters that also need attention.
<mem> BJ, we don't have relations with lawyer groups, just specific lawyers.
<hkhenson> tanya, how do you know they are giving good advice?
<BJKlein> imminst is looking to put together an ImmInst Legal Team for such problems in the future
<BJKlein> email bjk@imminst.org if there is interest from those here tonight
<mem> Remind me of that in a week or so, please.
<sjvan> The advise is good in the opinion of Alcor members who are attornies themselves.
<FutureQ> You ll must know that some sor f regulation is coming whether we like it or not. Is it not best to work with some natural allies, which I see to be the medical system, and work with government agencies to formulate our own cryonicsas a medical procedure friendly legistation?
<BJKlein> will do Tanya
<davidbe> Alcor News is now on the web:
<hkhenson> may I suggest that the lawyers in and out of alcor don't know much about certain aspects of the use of courts.
<davidbe>
http://www.alcor.org...cornews022.html<sjvan> FutureQ...we may well do this, but first priority is to stop this bill. Anything new must be carefully checked for unforseen consequences.
<mem> I found one potential alternative in the Statutes, a small commission that is comprised of 3 MDs, 3 PhDs, and 3 members of the public. Their particular madate is to give away money on disease control research, but deciding on appropriate oversight is taking a back seat to this current bill.
<mem> There is also some question as to whether a Commission can be given oversight authority, but I don't see how that is important, since they are writing fresh regs anyway.
<hkhenson> well, that's not surprising since the object of killing alcor was clearly stated up front
<hkhenson> foolishly I might add
<mem> Only by a member of the Funeral Board, everyone else is being more circumspect.
<mem> And that is counting against them with the other legislators.
<hkhenson> right.
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<hkhenson> well, that's your in if you want to take advantage of it.
<FutureQ> I heard it said that complying with current medical standards for tissue storage would be cost prohinitive. Then if this is so shouldn't the option be to create cryonics considering storage regs for medical regulation?
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<hkhenson> the obvious back up is to make plans to leave arizona before the end of the year.
<sjvan> Actually, I've been looking at the standards for tissue storage, and they aren't all that onerous...if it is "not for transplant"
<mem> I'm not sure about the cost impact of such things. I've looked into registration as an organ procurement org, and that may be a way to go. There are problems associated with releasing information to the donor network that may conflict with our existing contracts.
<John_McCluskey> Or to simply ship the patients to another storage facility outside of arizona.
<mem> I'd really rather not have to move the patients again. That first time was nerve-wracking enough.
<hkhenson> no, I would leave arizona
<hkhenson> entirely.
<hkhenson> the threat of moving because of hostile legislation is why we moved from CA.
<mem> That and the fact that they condemned our building.
<hkhenson> but alcor is a much larger operation now and significant
<hkhenson> in an economic sense.
<sjvan> But we didn't move from CA until after we put up a good fight
<mem> But on the scale of the standard funeral industry, we are still tiny
<FutureQ> Hey, bonus hre, alcor patients mostly preserve only heads. Their organs cxan be donated. This should be seen as a natural plus and jibing point with donor orgs.
<hkhenson> no futureq
<davidbe> We have no guarantee we would not have the same problem elsewhere.
<hkhenson> that's out.
<FutureQ> why?
<mem> Their organs cannot be donated, unless we find a way to get our solutions approved by the FDA.
<Nebson> hello all *reads up*
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<hkhenson> technical reasons
<davidbe> No, the organs cannot be donated. The procedures are incompatible.
<FutureQ> so fluids are not simnply placed only in the head, I take it?
<sellinios> what is FDA ????
<hkhenson> the whole process is different futureq
<sjvan> Aside form the FDA, I don't think there has ever been an alcor patient that would have been a candidate for organ transplant...few who sign there cards acutally do; it is rare
<John_McCluskey> FDA = Food Drug Administration
<hkhenson> don't even think about it.
<sellinios> I am from GREECE
<sellinios> I am sorry
<sellinios> not
<Jonesey> hello hellas
<hkhenson> it is fine for a donor's brain to turn to soup.
<mem> Signing organ donor cards is another conflict with our paperwork. Sharing the organs with that network is not something we can currently do.
<hkhenson> that misses the point of cryonics
<sellinios> HELLO USA
<sellinios> I!!
<BJKlein> sorry.. had to ban sellinois
<Jonesey> why bjk?
<BJKlein> repeat offender
<Jonesey> ahh
<mem> It doesn't conflict, as I see it, Keith. Especially if we can develop protocols whereby the rest of the organs can be used as long as we get the brains.
<FutureQ> well, could we say we are working on reseaqrch to allow preservation of organs so that this may one day be ppossible?" Whether we are or not? We=cryonocs people.
<mem> but that's still pretty speculative
<hkhenson> tanya, *I* don't want it done to me.
<mem> that I can respect
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<hkhenson> they treat people in ways that are incompatable with brain structure
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<sjvan> But most organ donors (nearly all in this country) are beating heart brain dead. Rare, and the brain turns to soup while they scoop out the organs
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<mem> ah, you mean with regard to the brain death criterion!
<hkhenson> right.
<mem> yeah, that's no good for us at all
<hkhenson> bingo.
<hkhenson> ferget organ donations.
<John_McCluskey> I agree.
<sjvan> Yes, they will sit on a brain dead for *days* making the decision
<hkhenson> tanya, are you at the office?
<mem> Nope, at home.
<hkhenson> I am about to scan something and mail it to Hugh
<mem> why?
<hkhenson> electronic circuit he was asking for.
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<FutureQ> Have criterion that the organs may only be procured though one;s cryonics provider after sucessful suspension.
<FutureQ> I'll tell you why.
<John_Ventureville> ?
<hkhenson> technically, you *can't* do that.
<mem> Continued development of our protocols may allow for that at some point. The procedures being developed by 21CM have that potential, but it would be a hard sell without the FDA approval.
<FutureQ> Ifyou want a reqady made enemy just propose to freze everyone and leave no organs for donation. ou'll have doctors up n arms aqnd all sorts of blleeeding earts as well.
<sjvan> FDA approval = 100's million $
<hkhenson> futureq, I never saw an alcor case that *could* be considered for donation.
<mem> I've been figuring seven years and $7 billion
<FutureQ> please excuse typos, my sticks are numb tonight j/k
<mem> but I could be exaggerating
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<John_McCluskey> Does anyone have any knowledge if CI is now doing vitrification? Is it comparable to Alcor's procedure?
<hkhenson> they have ugly problems like cancer.
<Utnapishtim> hi
<BJKlein> FutureQ, we need that BCI for ya
<hkhenson> no idea john. CI is very tight with such information
<sjvan> I would think that they would say if they were
<FutureQ> yep
<BJKlein> welcome Utn, you up to date on the Alcor situation yet?
<FutureQ> funnything is I own both Dragon and Kurzweils speech rec and don't use either
<BJKlein> ah, that's interesting..
<Utnapishtim> no.. I haven't been keeping up..
<BJKlein> check www.imminst.org for latest.. but we'll have a chat each night here starting at 8pm eastern
<Utnapishtim> whats the latest news?
<John_Ventureville> According to Dr. Ettinger, Dr. Pichugin has developed a form of vitrification CI will be using down the road
<davidbe> go to www.alcor.org and click on the headline banner.
<John_Ventureville> Utnap, war is on the horizon
<Utnapishtim> This SICKENS me
<FutureQ> but when down the road is not yet known nd Bob likes me a lot but hasn't said.
<davidbe> It's not on the horizon, it's here now.
<Utnapishtim> what possible reason is there to regulate... who is being harmed?
<John_McCluskey> I've seen the Pichugin announcement... it's all wrapped in secrecy... too much for my taste.
<davidbe> It was spurred by all the bad press.
<John_Ventureville> we are coming up this Thursday on the first major skirmish!
<sjvan> The application is the hard part...any cryoprotectant will vitrify
<BJKlein> all Alcor directors/members in this fight.. remember to get good sleep/excercise as it will help with mental functionality
<John_Ventureville> *and spurred by Larry Johnson's betrayal*
<mem> heh, thanks!
<FutureQ> Who is being hartmed is the cronies of TW looking for or paying for this.
<John_McCluskey> I'm thinking that neurotoxicity is the major problem.
<John_Ventureville> and remember mems....
<davidbe> Tanya, what is the expected lineup for testimony on Thursday?
<davidbe> Should I say a few words (very brief)?
<John_Ventureville> a visit or two to the Creekside could help sharpen you up for what is ahead!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<Utnapishtim> What justification is put forward for this proposed regulation?
<mem> We have several people who are already confirmed, and several maybes who have to check their schedules tomorrow.
<FutureQ> none really utna
<mem> We still need to get them all instructions on how to register to be allowed to testify. I'm getting that data tomorrow.
<John_McCluskey> Gotta go... good night all.
<davidbe> The justification is the bad press. They use that as an excuse for needing to know what's going on at Alcor.
<Utnapishtim> just the instinct of government to regulate for regulations sake. Regulation not as a means to an end but an end unto itself
<John_Ventureville> Utnap, Rep. Stump is a Harvard grad who was mentored by George F. Will & the family business is the funeral industry
<davidbe> I think anybody can register that morning. I have done that once before.
<davidbe> I sent out a blurb about it.
<mem> The claims that Alcor has been a closed book until now are completely false. We have been inspected by multiple authorities and our books and procedures are open.
<John_Ventureville> Stump is no average Arizona representative
<davidbe> No, he is well below average :-)
<mem> He's a freshman, but seems very well-connected.
<BJKlein> seems if we can focus on why Stump is pushing this (family interest) may be helpful
<FutureQ> HHow about a tv ad saying how Stumps fmily siz will benefit from doing in the competition seen on the horizon? Something like Moveon.org did to Bush?
<Ocsrazor> keep up the good fight all - goodnight
<FutureQ> siz=biz
<sjvan> It seems odd to me that he claims that we are secretive, but won't accept our invitation
<BJKlein> night Ocsrazor
<davidbe> Yes, we can obviously afford a TV blitz.
<mem> heh
<John_Ventureville> Stump could say "because I know the funeral industry so well being that it is my family business, I am uniquely qualified to stand up to Alcor and say that they must be regulated by the funeral industry!"
<davidbe> That is our counter argument, sjv
<FutureQ> locqal cable is not so expensive
<BJKlein> that's an interesting plan.. TV/Radio etc blitz
<davidbe> Barry seems to think it is not worth playing the media game. They have more resources in that department.
* BJKlein nods
<davidbe> He's probably right.
<BJKlein> perhaps if we have friends in media..
<BJKlein> otherwise.. this is true.. easy target for bashing
<John_Ventureville> yes
<hkhenson> what is mostly needed is *money*
<John_Ventureville> money alone will not do it
<mem> Money will only go so far. It doesn't change people's minds as much as we might hope.
<John_Ventureville> in fact, money improperly used could make things much worse
<FutureQ> maybe so but one good mud sling and it sticks in the minds of the voters. first one o sling gets the jump.
<hkhenson> not just money for immediate, but a ton of pleges to be able to call on.
<davidbe> Well, it's moot anyway, since we don't have tons of money.
<BJKlein> has Joe W. or Limler planed to talk to media on this yet?
<Utnapishtim> I hate knee jerk irrationality........ Why does it have to be like this???????????????????
<John_Ventureville> Don Laughlin has money....
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<John_Ventureville> lol
<mem> Joe W and I have been talking to the media since this began. We had several interviews over the past week, and one today.
<sjvan> Just for the record, though, this *si* costing Alcor money, so anyone who wants to help can make a directed donation.
<hkhenson> tanya, I can tell you for a fact that money can be used to deal with a problem like this.
<hkhenson> decisively.
<mem> More money would help, I'm just saying it's not the ultimate solution. We need to change people's perception of cryonics.
<hkhenson> I am not talking about the larger problem.
<John_Ventureville> whatever happened to Bill Haworth, Alcor's whizbang p.r. guy?
<sjvan> decisively...and legally?
<hkhenson> I am talking about making so rough that they lay off.
<hkhenson> legally.
<Utnapishtim> we need to change people perception of the role of government to mindlessly regulate everything in sight
<BJKlein> Tanya, this where ImmInst hopes to help = changing minds
<hkhenson> unfortunately, consider my experiences over the last few years.
<BJKlein> one new member at a time
<mem> and I approve of that, BJ :()
<mem>
* BJKlein nods
<sjvan> Keith, but I don't think what happened to you was legal
<mem> We are still a small org. We have 60 AZ members, which is a little less than 10% of our membership.
<hkhenson> well, I agree with you sj
<hkhenson> but that doesn't help a bit.
<John_Ventureville> But BJ, to an extent don't you mainly "preach to the choir?"
<John_Ventureville> *I'm guilty, too*
<BJKlein> of course.. as with any group.. but we fight this..
<BJKlein> reaching out in a circle of interest.. buidlding concensus
<Nuzz> are any efforts being put forth to help reduce the cost of preservation?
<hkhenson> no time for that bj.
<BJKlein> not for Alcor.. but a job for ImmInst
<hkhenson> this is emergency time.
<John_Ventureville> if we can inform & motivate each other to make phonecalls, send faxes & letters to the Arizona Reps, that will mean a great deal!
<mem> I really appreciate the support we've gotten from within the group, even though we've been a little slow in releasing much information. It's been really hard to figure out the impact of this, and the whole process has been moving far more quickly than for the average legislation.
<FutureQ> Speaking of preaching to the choir. Over at the VP are there any non immortalists signing in to dhat and learn, have heirmemes adjusted? Leon Kass maybe?
<John_Ventureville> I noticed I think maybe one person
<John_Ventureville> *sure as heck not Kass*
<BJKlein> by the way, a way for ImmInst to reach out = ImmInst Book Project
<John_Ventureville> FutureQ, why havn't you been at their chats?
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, I eat my words about you preaching to the choir....
<John_Ventureville> because of your book project
<John_Ventureville> : )
<FutureQ> The VVP should be free to public and donationonly from believers i.e. us.
<FutureQ> VVP=VP=Vital Progress
<BJKlein> Title has now been voted: "The Scientific Conquest of Death: Essays on Infinite Lifespans"
<FutureQ> I tried but saw no one there
<FutureQ> I donated tho
<BJKlein> look for sale within 3months
<John_Ventureville> FutureQ, but this is a planning summit and we don't want it getting overrun by newbies who may be hostile or just plain immature
<sjvan> Infinite, not indefinate?
<mem> Sure wish I had time to finish my essay on that, but you can imaging things are hectic right now. Pencil me in for the next version.
<BJKlein> Tanya.. totally understand
<FutureQ> Oh, my mistake I thought it was an outreach summit
<John_Ventureville> Tanya, could Charles Platt write an article for the ImmInst book?
<BJKlein> sjvan, infinite it will be.. we narrowed down from more than 50 titles
<mem> you'd have to ask him
<Jonesey> bjk: i could write an essay on immortal procrastination but i don't think i can find the time
<John_Ventureville> LOL
<BJKlein> heh.. take your time Jonesey
<Nuzz> In my opinion quantum mechanics makes life infinite by nature
<mem> try again next week
<John_Ventureville> BJ is here to see that you get your chance at *indefinite procrastination*
<eclecticd> anyone check out the link Kevin gave here on www.imagination-engines.com?
<Jonesey> heard of the beckenstein bounds, nuzz?
<Nuzz> sounds familiar
<Jonesey> made sorta famous in "physics and immortality" by tipler
<Nuzz> I was thinking "Many worlds" makes it possible
<Jonesey> provocative book, recommend it
<eclecticd> it sounds very interesting..
<Nuzz> i saw the imagination engine website
<BJKlein> Tanya.. while you're here.. can you tell us how you got into cryonics?
<Jonesey> tipler popularized "many worlds" after everett came up with it
<eclecticd> a form of neural feedback loop coupled with sensory inputs from the external world
<BJKlein> promise not to ask to many q's, just curious
<eclecticd> one net dreams, while another observes the patterns formed of its dream (subconscious) layer
<eclecticd> consciousness?
<Jonesey> tipler looks at what it 'll take for humans and intelligent life in general to survive long term cosmological trends
<sjvan> She was Shanghied
<BJKlein> heh
<Nuzz> consciousness requires more complexity than you might think
<Jonesey> death of the sun, universe as a whole etc
<mem> would it be too silly to say it was a guy? He gave me EoC, and I was one of those instant cryonicists. I'd actually written a short story on cryogenics a year before, and failed to discover that there were actually people doing this for real.
<BJKlein> from forsight.org i think, eh?
<eclecticd> or perhaps, "self-aware" I should say
<mem> foresight came after Alcor.
<BJKlein> EoC here as well
<Nuzz> I don't believe that consciousness will mean anything when it comes to AI
<BJKlein> ah.. that's right you were with Alcor at CA move to AZ
<hkhenson> EoC here too.
<Nuzz> it either works or it doesn't
<hkhenson> reading several versions in draft . . . .
<FutureQ> EoC =?
<BJKlein> Eng. of Creation = Drexler
<mem> yep, six years with Alcor and several running the suspension team
<FutureQ> ah
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<BJKlein> welcome lisco
<John_Ventureville> watching Tanya in action over a suspension is something else
<lisco> thank you
<mem> Running away for Foresight was a good thing for me. I learned much that will help improve Alcor this time around.
<Nuzz> the way I see it, is the many-worlds theory joined with evolution... All possible iterations are made, while the worlds that result in your death are eliminated
<mem> thanks, John
<Nuzz> from your point of view you may be immortal
<FutureQ> I saw alcor on Discovery and was dreaming about cloning myself a new body since 1990 after reading aq book about it supposedly already ahving been done for a rich guy.
<eclecticd> also interesting is how Stephen Thaler describes emotion
<Nuzz> just a theory though but I can't see anything that proves it wrong
<eclecticd> "The crux of the matter is this: The universe is the biggest simulation out there and has an immense numbers of degrees of freedom. The brain, whose major function is to model the external universe, has far fewer degrees of freedom and must therefore pull some clever tricks to anticipate it. It must therefore warp its attractor landscape beyond the normal valleys representing its memories to produce new potential memories that re
<John_Ventureville> in my case, I read the Omni magazine issue with the cryonics contest judged by Charles Platt
<eclecticd> that was from
http://www.imaginati...t/interview.htm<John_Ventureville> I called up Cryocare and we spoke for a half hour or so
<mem> I have my advance copy on my desk at work, came across it when I moved. That's also the issue that got our new CEO interested.
<John_Ventureville> he was very patient with all my newbie questions
<BJKlein> sweetness... i bet Charles is loving this Alcor fight
<davidbe> ??
<BJKlein> Joe W. seems like a good leader
<BJKlein> is not Charles P. with Alcor?
<hkhenson> bj, sort of.
<mem> Joe W. is going to be very good for Alcor.
<Nuzz> too bad I don't know of any ANN-for-dummies tutorials that cut to the point and tell you how to build one... all I find is technical mumbo jumbo
<eclecticd> but again that just describes the process, not necessarily the reason for emotion. I mean I can feel happy just about being happy, without intentional objects
<BJKlein> you'll have to excuse my faciussness
<davidbe> Charles is just starting to do some contract work for the website.
<John_Ventureville> he had told me how badly designed the original site was
<eclecticd> ..at least I think I can.
<eclecticd> :Ox
<BJKlein> yeah.. good new design on alcor..
<davidbe> I think we all agree on that John
<MichaelA> Nuzz, try looking for an AI or NN chatroom or message board
<John_Ventureville> the company Alcor hired had really taken them for a ride
<mem> Now, now. That site was better than no site. And the folks who put the original alcor.org together should not be blamed for that hideous black backgrounded thing that came later.
<John_Ventureville> hehe
<sjvan> Cheers to davidbe...he did most of the work on the site
* BJKlein Alcor just keeps getting better
* mem concurs
<John_Ventureville> thank you, Davidbe
<eclecticd> Michael, have you checked www.imagination-engines.com ?
<davidbe> It was totally a joint effort, sjvan, you know that.
<mem> David and the rest of the team have done a great job on the current version of the site.
<eclecticd> have you seen any other techs in the making like this?
<eclecticd> that is selfcreating adaptive code?
<Nuzz> actually.... I want to find out how to go toward the direction where the Imagination Engine is
<John_Ventureville> I have to say about the current site, though....
* BJKlein can't resist showing his new puppy: www.imminst.org/luna
<MichaelA> I've seen imagination engines
<MichaelA> I don't follow traditional AI that much
<Nuzz> I don't want to use an ANN for statistics or puzzles, or math problems
<John_Ventureville> maybe the graphics & color scheme are just a little drab
<John_Ventureville> *but it's still a great site*
<eclecticd> I don't see imagination-engines as traditional..
<davidbe> The emphasis is on content, not glitz, John.
<John_Ventureville> just some constructive criticism
<John_Ventureville> just my opinion
<MichaelA> Even very simple software programs can theoretically be seen as "self-creating adaptive code"; if it is interpreted broadly enough
<MichaelA> I'll look at it more closely, but I'm pretty sure it falls into the envelope known as basically "traditional AI"
<MichaelA> I follow some of the robotics stuff, but mostly things that people in the field of cognitive science are doing to simulate reasoning, and the field of Artificial General Intelligence
<MichaelA> general architectures like SOAR
<BJKlein> take care guys.. until tommorow night
<MichaelA> I feel that most NN approaches expect all the critical features of intelligence to spontaneously emerge
<John_Ventureville> off-topic matter here....
<John_Ventureville> how many of you like me feel torn on Sunday night between.....
<Nuzz> I want to do more of a specific approach to AI
<Nuzz> combining specific programs
<John_Ventureville> being at the computer to do chats like this, and friends & family wanting to just sit around and talk and eat a leisurely dinner (which is great, too)
<Nuzz> instead of trying to build a giant machine, build hundreds of simple ones
<John_Ventureville> ???
<John_Ventureville> maybe I'm the only one with this dilemma
<FutureQ> not here John,just torn when Alias comes on LOL!
<MichaelA> I would guess that coding the "interconnective sinews" of those hundreds of simple programs might be nearly as hard as writing the programs themselves
<sjvan> Any other Q about alcor, or suggestions?
<MichaelA> It depends on what you really want to do, and why
<Nuzz> i know how it is john
<Nuzz> when i lived with my dad it was always like that, lol
<FutureQ> Get copiuos amounts of petroleum jelly on hand
<mem> we really want to kill this bill and later develop regulation that is actually appropriate.
<davidbe> Q: Why put embalmers in charge of storage in addition to licensing as a funeral establishments? What was the reasoning there?
<mem> I'd very much like to hear alternatives for oversight organizations.
<John_Ventureville> FutureQ, huh?
<FutureQ> j/k
<John_Ventureville> OH!!!!
<John_Ventureville> I get it now
<John_Ventureville> ; )
<mem> They picked an arbitrary 5-year time limit, but that will include other orgs like museums, fertility clinics and such... that's where the selective enforcement may come into play later.
<sjvan> I'm not sure there was much reasoning there...particularly when you think about all the different organizations that have body parts (the definition includes bones)
<FutureQ> they sort of screwed up there.
<mem> Don't anybody order a skeleton for the classroom, as the Funeral Board will want to regulate you!
<eclecticd> I think the technology may hold promise to create autonomous AI, but limited for now until massive parallel computing can be integrated to respond to multiple sensory inputs & form meaningful theories from those
<eclecticd> and robust sensory tools with more degrees of freedom
<davidbe> Yes, but didn't the funeral licensing requirement do what they wanted? Why add the embalmer clause?
<eclecticd> he does show a robotic arm learning to reach for its target
<FutureQ> Skeleton Nazi's are at the door to check if it's plastic or must be confiscated and conecrated!
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<mem> The embalmer clause is part of the standard Funeral Board directives, and it's not like we don't have a cooperating Funeral Director, he just doesn't oversee all aspects of our operation.
<eclecticd> and a robot learning how to use its legs to walk to a sonar target
<sjvan> I would very much like to find an voluntary industry accredidation that we can use to say we don't need governemnt oversight...such as American Assocaition of Tissue Banks
http://www.aatb.org/ <MichaelA> I disagree that real-world robotics will play a major part in developing human-level AI
<mem> I still need to take the time to look into that, sjvan. I'll try to get to that on Tuesday. We need a credible alternative to Funeral Board regulation, since Stump is making an issue of that.
<eclecticd> human-level?
<sjvan> Skeleton Nazi...I like that
<eclecticd> I believe they must respond to sensory inputs in the real world like us, to form observations like I us
<FutureQ> Well, folks, friends and all. I must say adiu fornw. g'hingt all.
<MichaelA> It's tangibly impressive, which is why it gets a lot of funding, and does address convergent problems, but simulated microworlds can fulfill a lot of the same challenges to an AI that the real world would supply, only the microworlds would have a lot of additional advantages
<eclecticd> if one takes shortcuts, such as feeding it patterns of information, it won't be able to function in reality as we do
<eclecticd> but may still be able to make meaningful abstractions & comparisons from them
<MichaelA> But blind, dumb, deaf people can become intelligent
<eclecticd> within the confines of the box we given it
<FutureQ> Jogn V check PM abov e
<John_Ventureville> I was at the ExI summit chat earlier today, and what struck me was the complexity of "memetic engineering/social strategizing" which in its own way is up there with physics and a.i. research.
<MichaelA> You could probably block off a massive percentage of the sensory information a human being experiences, just let them grow up completely in a very simple virtual reality, and I still believe they would possess general intelligence
<John_Ventureville> bye, FutureQ
<FutureQ> bye
<John_Ventureville> I'm at the p.m. now
<MichaelA> Microworlds can be deployed incrementally, precisely engineered, etc etc
<MichaelA> bye bye James
<eclecticd> hmm, but I don't think there are simulations that model our local laws of reality with all the complexities of the real one, to truly be representable of it
<MichaelA> See, the language, thrust and tone on this imagination engines website is already bothering me
<eclecticd> It *might* be able to, but creating such a simulation may be more difficult then achieving one with a reality that's given to us
<MichaelA> what the heck is this about?;
<MichaelA> In 1992, Thaler shocked the world with bizarre experiments in which the neurons within artificial neural networks were randomly destroyed. Guess what? The nets first relived all of their experiences (i.e., life review) and then, within advanced stages of destruction, generated novel experience. With this very compelling model of near-death experience (NDE) hopes for a supernatural or mystical explanation of this much celebrat
<eclecticd> but of course, with the prerequisite of achieving some hardware engineering too..
<eclecticd> that IS interesting
<MichaelA> it seems to argue that all ANNs spontaneously have anthropomorphic NDEs when they die
<mem> Sorry, but I have an insanely early power breakfast tomrrow. Does anyone have more questions about Alcor or the proposed regulation?
<eclecticd> Michael, elaborate
<MichaelA> "the reality that's given to us" is not special; the main reason we get such a massive flow of sensory info is not because it is an essential prerequisite to intelligence, but because we evolved from simpler ancestors that *required* tons of sensory information to even survive, because they were so dumb, and we got their luggage
<sjvan> Good luck tomorrow! You know how to reach me if you need me.
<mem> thanks!
<John_Ventureville> Tanya, hang in there!
<mem> will do
<John_Ventureville> I'm rooting for you
<John_Ventureville> and the Creekside is here for you and other tired Alcorite staff
<John_Ventureville> 2% discount!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<davidbe> LOL
<eclecticd> Michael, he might be thinking in your terms too..
http://imagination-e.../worldbrain.htm<mem> haha, we'll keep that in mind
<eclecticd> The Coming World Brain..
<John_Ventureville> lol
<eclecticd> of the Internet
<John_Ventureville> good
