56 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

If you think eating meat is unethical and disgusting, try telling that to a leopard or a lioness right before they try to get the most defensless prey out of the herd.

Comparing us to animals who are living purely on instinct is folly and has absolutely no scientific basis in it. Not even anthropology does that, at least to that degree.

I think wild nature is exciting

And the reason you don't live in a jungle is?

Oh yea, you'd probably be eaten by any number of wild animals..

[okok]

Risk factors for diets at diagnose-me.

[Brafarality]

Go V, baby!

[xEva]

I've been lacto-ovo V for over a decade. The transition was difficult but worth it. It took about 3 years to get into it comfortably and stop worrying about "your proteins".

For those BBs who "require" meat for building muscles, I'd like to remind that buffalo and gorillas are vegetarians - but what strength and muscles! Exercise builds muscles.

Another point worth remembering that the higher up you are on the food chain, the more toxins you accumulate. Meat-eaters also accumulate heavy isotopes in their tissues, which, in time, impedes metabolic processes and make you more prone to radiation injury.

Go V!

[erzebet]

as a student in medicine, i would add that as long as you have the correct proportions of amino acids and get your iron and B12 a vegetarian diet is as healthy as an omnivore one. you should simply be more diverse in the vegetables, fruits and cereals you choose to eat.

i am vegetarian firstly because i do not like the taste of meat and secondly because psychologically i do not feel good when i see an animal is suffering - this is why i chose medicine and not biology and i couldn't kill a fly to save my life:) i think that my mental peace is worth more than the meat's proteins and besides that my favorite foods are vegetarian

[Saber]

A meat-based diet would probably be necessary to maintain good health in the past ages.
Now that we can obtain most of the special nutrients found only in meat through additional supplementation, there is no longer a reason to eat meat and having to deal with all the downsides.

[ForeverYouthful]

Which specifically are the special meat-based nutrients? I'm interested to know.

I was vegan and then vegetarian about 8 years ago, and for me it didn't work, it made me weaker, tireder, and sicker, and made my emotional well-being less .... well. Nowadays I eat a mixed diet, with a focus on whole foods. I listen to my body and if it says eat 4 eggs, then I do, for example. I actually eat a LOT of eggs, but I don't want to give the impression that I live solely on eggs, hehe, that's not the case.

I wonder what I could supplement with that would compensate for whatever it is in eggs that makes me crave them so much.

[Brain_Ischemia]

What is best for my health? PETA supporters will, and they’re right, cry in my face that it’s better for my health not to eat meat. An average well-groomed man from the intelligent layer in the middle class will claim the opposite. Whom should I believe? I don’t have the knowledge to do the research on my own, and there are tons of information supporting both beliefs.

Ouch...I'm a vegetarian and I like to consider myself an "average well-groomed man from the intelligent layer in the middle class"...

Vegetarianism with adequate supplementation is a perfectly healthy choice for a longevity-oriented diet
A) if you have moral concerns regarding the mass slaughter of animals
B) if you simply want to avoid consuming red meat or industrial farm animals out of health concerns (casein, hormones, etc)


I take some personal exception to the current paradigm in which avians and mammals are raised, systematically abused, and "processed" via the machinery of the world's industrial farming.
From a biological and evolutionary standpoint, what makes us different from some of the creatures we process this way is VASTLY less than what makes us similar, and the mind-bogglingly massive amount of resources used to raise and sustain animals for meat has a negative and widespread impact on the environment, so I think there are fundamental ethical, social, and environmental concerns that can't easily be dismissed.

On the other hand, some of the rhetoric from animal-rights groups can be a bit servile to their own rigid dogma to the point where they sometimes assert things that fly in the face of accumulated scientific evidence (such as denying that meat-eating and hunting played an important role in human evolution). Some of these individuals don't seem to realize or adequately appreciate the fact that mankind has been hunting and eating animals since before civilization existed, and that hunting can be a natural, even harmonious expression of mankind's basic place in the natural world.

Personally, I'm an Octo Lavo Vegetarian; while I do eat cheese, yogurt, and creams (such as sour cream), I exclude cow milk as a standalone beverage. While there are some benefits to yogurt (as a probiotic, for example) it does not have the lactose that milk does. I don't have any personal ethical concerns about consuming lower animal organisms which is why I sometimes take a Krill Oil supplement (though I do have some concern about the over-harvesting of krill and its effect on arctic ecosystems).

Even if you have no moral/ethical concerns about the humane treatment or mass slaughter of animals, my understanding is that heavy meat consumption is linked to increased risk of disease and reduced longevity (particularly in relation to casein, a serious cancer causing molecule), whereas the health benefits of vegetables and fruits are innumerable.

The bottom line is that if you want to reduce your risk of disease and maximize your potential for long life, then it would be prudent to eat a diet of mostly plant foods and limit or reduce your consumption of animal products.

[Saber]

Which specifically are the special meat-based nutrients? I'm interested to know.

I was vegan and then vegetarian about 8 years ago, and for me it didn't work, it made me weaker, tireder, and sicker, and made my emotional well-being less .... well. Nowadays I eat a mixed diet, with a focus on whole foods. I listen to my body and if it says eat 4 eggs, then I do, for example. I actually eat a LOT of eggs, but I don't want to give the impression that I live solely on eggs, hehe, that's not the case.

I wonder what I could supplement with that would compensate for whatever it is in eggs that makes me crave them so much.

Well, some of it has already been mentioned on various vegetarian threads on this forum such as taurine, l-carnitine, l-carnosine, calcium, vitamin d, fish oil, b12, creatine, choline (eggs contain high amount of choline) in additional to a complete protein profile in the diet . Your symptoms probably stem from malnutrition. There might be some other special nutrients that we haven't discovered. Nutrition science is far from complete.

But a poorly designed vegetarian diet filled with cheap carbs and fructose is probably the fastest way to diabetes and death.
As always, old man Darwin is working his magic in the background and it's up to each person to do their own research or reap the consequences.

For a normal person who does not take supplements, a vegan/vegetarian diet is definitely not a good idea. I also know several of them in real life, and they are very obese and sickly. You would probably find more of this type of vegetarians than healthy ones, especially in a country such as the US.
Without a complete understanding of nutrition, any reasonable person should be very reluctant of adopt a vegan/vegetarian diet.
So IMO, it is very contrived and artificial and can only be achieve successfully with modern supplementation. I would definitely not attempt it 200 years ago, but the modern American diet has turn the table around. You need supplements regardless of whether you eat meat or not, might as well cut it out and conserve the money for supplements.

[Brain_Ischemia]

For a normal person who does not take supplements, a vegan/vegetarian diet is definitely not a good idea. I also know several of them in real life, and they are very obese and sickly. You would probably find more of this type of vegetarians than healthy ones, especially in a country such as the US.

Nice anecdote there, but every single large scale study of vegetarians in the US and Europe that I'm aware of shows that vegetarians on average have lower BMIs than the rest of the population, not higher, as well reduced incidence of heart disease and diabetes (diseases linked with obesity). Unsupplemented vegetarianism may not be healthy over the long term nor promote longevity, but by itself it doesn't cause obesity and I've not seen any evidence whatsoever to indicate otherwise.

As an aside, vegetarians tend to be healthier on average, though the reason for that is arguably attributable to vegetarians usually being more discerning about what they eat (out of necessity) rather than mere abstention from meats alone.

Edited by Xanthus, 05 October 2009 - 04:02 PM.

[ajnast4r]

For a normal person who does not take supplements, a vegan/vegetarian diet is definitely not a good idea.
Without a complete understanding of nutrition, any reasonable person should be very reluctant of adopt a vegan/vegetarian diet.
So IMO, it is very contrived and artificial and can only be achieve successfully with modern supplementation. I would definitely not attempt it 200 years ago

as a nutrition student i can assure you that none of what you said is true... please refer to the american dietetic associations position on vegetarian diets

http://www.vegetariannutrition.net/
http://www.eatright....33_ENU_HTML.htm

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes

it is NOT necessary for a vegetarian to supplement anything. most vegetarians consume dairy and eggs which gives them an adequate supply of micronutrients and amino acids. a huge portion of the indian population has been vegetarian for tens of thousands of years and they have survived and thrived very well...hardly artificial.

you need to differentiate when speaking about vegan and vegetarian diets because they are drastically different... vegan diets require a good amount of planning and paying attention to details, but vegetarians diets can be healthy with no less effort than a omnivorous diet.

(NewLife @ Aug 3 2009, 06:15 PM) *
What is best for my health? PETA supporters will, and they’re right, cry in my face that it’s better for my health not to eat meat. An average well-groomed man from the intelligent layer in the middle class will claim the opposite. Whom should I believe? I don’t have the knowledge to do the research on my own, and there are tons of information supporting both beliefs.

although i would consider myself a well-groomed man from the intelligent layer in the middle class and im a vegetarian... i would say you should believe neither. you should get your information on nutrition from the governing scientific bodies, like the ADA (see the above links)

Edited by ajnast4r, 05 October 2009 - 05:55 PM.

[Saber]

For a normal person who does not take supplements, a vegan/vegetarian diet is definitely not a good idea.
Without a complete understanding of nutrition, any reasonable person should be very reluctant of adopt a vegan/vegetarian diet.
So IMO, it is very contrived and artificial and can only be achieve successfully with modern supplementation. I would definitely not attempt it 200 years ago

as a nutrition student i can assure you that none of what you said is true... please refer to the american dietetic associations position on vegetarian diets

http://www.vegetariannutrition.net/
http://www.eatright....33_ENU_HTML.htm

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes

it is NOT necessary for a vegetarian to supplement anything. most vegetarians consume dairy and eggs which gives them an adequate supply of micronutrients and amino acids. a huge portion of the indian population has been vegetarian for tens of thousands of years and they have survived and thrived very well...hardly artificial.

you need to differentiate when speaking about vegan and vegetarian diets because they are drastically different... vegan diets require a good amount of planning and paying attention to details, but vegetarians diets can be healthy with no less effort than a omnivorous diet.

(NewLife @ Aug 3 2009, 06:15 PM) *
What is best for my health? PETA supporters will, and they're right, cry in my face that it's better for my health not to eat meat. An average well-groomed man from the intelligent layer in the middle class will claim the opposite. Whom should I believe? I don't have the knowledge to do the research on my own, and there are tons of information supporting both beliefs.

although i would consider myself a well-groomed man from the intelligent layer in the middle class and im a vegetarian... i would say you should believe neither. you should get your information on nutrition from the governing scientific bodies, like the ADA (see the above links)

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, we should differentiate between vegan and vegetarian. Dairy and eggs would probably provide the missing nutrients in meat, but with vegan diet, it would be difficult to obtain these nutrients without supplementing. Even more so with the food provided by today's society when everything is thoroughly processed and depleted of nutrients.

For a normal person who does not take supplements, a vegan/vegetarian diet is definitely not a good idea. I also know several of them in real life, and they are very obese and sickly. You would probably find more of this type of vegetarians than healthy ones, especially in a country such as the US.

Nice anecdote there, but every single large scale study of vegetarians in the US and Europe that I'm aware of shows that vegetarians on average have lower BMIs than the rest of the population, not higher, as well reduced incidence of heart disease and diabetes (diseases linked with obesity). Unsupplemented vegetarianism may not be healthy over the long term nor promote longevity, but by itself it doesn't cause obesity and I've not seen any evidence whatsoever to indicate otherwise.

As an aside, vegetarians tend to be healthier on average, though the reason for that is arguably attributable to vegetarians usually being more discerning about what they eat (out of necessity) rather than mere abstention from meats alone.

Probably has little to do with the fact that they are vegetarian. Anyone who knows when to stop eating in this day and age would probably have low BMI and substantially healthier than the rest of the population, especially with the obesity epidemic rising.

What I like to see is a study that is not skewed toward one side and affected by personal beliefs with one normal diet with meat and another identical vegetarian diet with low GI carb being given to compensate for the missing calories and a strict regime of supplements to compensate for the missing meat nutrients. Then we can settle this issue once and for all logically without going all into personal ethical beliefs.

Edited by Saber, 05 October 2009 - 06:50 PM.

[Brain_Ischemia]

it is NOT necessary for a vegetarian to supplement anything. most vegetarians consume dairy and eggs which gives them an adequate supply of micronutrients and amino acids. a huge portion of the indian population has been vegetarian for tens of thousands of years and they have survived and thrived very well...hardly artificial.

While I think the ADA can mostly be relied upon to give decent, well-founded scientific advice, the influence of B12 on general health and well-being is GROSSLY under-appreciated by many mainstream nutritonists following old dietary guidelines. I suspect that many octo lavo vegetarians (not just vegans) suffer some degree of B12 deficiency since I'm not convinced that the amounts of B12 found in cheese and the occasional egg product are enough to reap the potential benefits of this vitamin. The importance of a good source of Omega 3 has also been generally under-appreciated until just the last several years. The positive impact of Omega 3 on health can't be overstated IMO, and there is *some* cause to believe that animal sources of Omega 3 may be better absorbed and used by the human body.

I'd advise those who prefer not to use animal-based Omega 3 supplements to choose freshly ground Flax Seed (which includes not only the oil but also the healthful lignans) as a regular Omega 3 source instead. While there are other plant sources of Omega 3, I don't believe they really compare to Flax Seed. Personally, I prefer to stay away from fish oil due to concerns about mercury and use a Krill Oil supplement myself along with the occasional tbsp of Flax meal which I grind with my coffee grinder and store in a non-clear ziplock bag in my refrigerator (goes great as a topping on just about anything!).

The bottom line is, even if you're an Octo Lavo Vegetarian and not a Vegan, adequate B12 and Omega 3 intake *should* be a priority for you IMHO. I say this as a life-long Octo Lavo Vegetarian myself.

Probably has little to do with the fact that they are vegetarian.

It's not really all that shocking or controversial that higher-than-average fruit and vegetable intake and being typically more discerning about food in general reduces average BMI and risk of heart disease and diabetes in Vegetarians. I agree with you, more direct and thorough research into comparing the effects of healthy meat-based diets (paleo diet comes to mind, which shows at least some promise) with healthy vegetarian diets on disease risk and longevity is absolutely warranted.

I have a hunch that very high protein intake is likely associated with increased cancer risk due to casein, but time will tell. I have no compunction about stating that the Paleo diet (which one of my best friends swears by) is certainly healthier than the typical American diet by leaps and bounds. I'm merely placing my bet on plant-based diets due to my own personal consideration of available evidence.

Edited by Xanthus, 06 October 2009 - 01:07 AM.

[ajnast4r]

the influence of B12 on general health and well-being is GROSSLY under-appreciated by many mainstream nutritonists following old dietary guidelines

why do you think the dri is not adequate? ... i use a methyl-b12 1mg 2-3 times a week myself bc i have celiac

im actually planning on trying this stuff later in the week.. first algal n3 supplement ive seen with dha & epa.

[erzebet]

regarding the b12 vitamin - i've never understood how can we get a vitamin from foods that are cooked like eggs, pasteurized milk or meat?

[ajnast4r]

regarding the b12 vitamin - i've never understood how can we get a vitamin from foods that are cooked like eggs, pasteurized milk or meat?

i dont understand what youre asking? b12 is heat stable in neutral solutions so most of it survives cooking. its also produced in the intestines by bacterial colonies.

Upon entry into the stomach, vitamin B12 becomes bound to haptocorrin (R factor), a glycoprotein. The resulting complex enters the duodenum, where pancreatic enzymes digest haptocorrin. In the less acidic environment of the small intestine, B12 can then bind to intrinsic factor. This new complex travels to the ileum, where special epithelial cells endocytose them. Inside the cell, B12 dissociate once again and bind to another protein, transcobalamin II. The new complex can exit the epithelial cells to enter the liver.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Vitamin_b12

[erzebet]

thanks, i knew it was not stable at light and somehow i deducted that most vitamins are lost when cooking

[ajnast4r]

i deducted that most vitamins are lost when cooking

if that was true we would all be dead

[rwac]

a huge portion of the indian population has been vegetarian for tens of thousands of years and they have survived and thrived very well...hardly artificial.

You're wrong on this. Vegetarianism came to India along with Buddhism and Jainism around 600 BC.
The early aryans were meat-eaters, including beef.

Unfortunately, this is kinda unpopular, so it doesn't get publicized very much.

Also, Indians are well know to be generally susceptible to heart disease.

Edited by rwac, 20 October 2009 - 06:26 PM.

[TheFountain]

Also, Indians are well know to be generally susceptible to heart disease.

So what?

'There were trends towards longer telomeres in vegetarian subjects compared with subjects on a mixed diet (vegetarians 1.31 (1.25 to 1.38); mixed 1.25 (1.18 to 1.33); p = 0.088) and shorter telomeres in subjects with a positive family history (FH) for CAD (+ve FH 1.25 (1.18 to 1.32); -ve FH 1.31 (1.24 to 1.38); p = 0.094).'

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

There is also this..




'Dyslipidemia is a primary risk factor for cardiovascular disease, peripheral vascular disease, and stroke. Current guidelines recommend diet as first-line therapy for patients with elevated plasma cholesterol concentrations. However, what constitutes an optimal dietary regimen remains a matter of controversy. Large prospective trials have demonstrated that populations following plant-based diets, particularly vegetarian and vegan diets, are at lower risk for ischemic heart disease mortality. The investigators therefore reviewed the published scientific research to determine the effectiveness of plant-based diets in modifying plasma lipid concentrations. Twenty-seven randomized controlled and observational trials were included. Of the 4 types of plant-based diets considered, interventions testing a combination diet (a vegetarian or vegan diet combined with nuts, soy, and/or fiber) demonstrated the greatest effects (up to 35% plasma low-density lipoprotein cholesterol reduction), followed by vegan and ovolactovegetarian diets. Interventions allowing small amounts of lean meat demonstrated less dramatic reductions in total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein levels. In conclusion, plant-based dietary interventions are effective in lowering plasma cholesterol concentrations.'



http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

[JLL]

I think you misunderstood the point... Yes, plant-basedd dietary interventions may well lower cholesterol levels, but so what? Is that a good thing? Indians have low cholesterol levels and they still get heart disease -- and not because they're genetic mutants, but precisely because of their diets.

[TheFountain]

I think you misunderstood the point... Yes, plant-basedd dietary interventions may well lower cholesterol levels, but so what? Is that a good thing? Indians have low cholesterol levels and they still get heart disease -- and not because they're genetic mutants, but precisely because of their diets.

You are lumping the entire population of indians into one category. There is no evidence that the ones with low cholesterol are the ones getting heart disease (some indian populations eat lots and lots and lots of meat!). The point of me bringing up those studies was to show that plant based diets have a protective effect on the heart, not the opposite as you are so ignorantly suggesting through mere correlation, which does not get us anywhere in terms of long-term dietary studies.

Edited by TheFountain, 21 October 2009 - 07:03 PM.

[JLL]

I think you misunderstood the point... Yes, plant-basedd dietary interventions may well lower cholesterol levels, but so what? Is that a good thing? Indians have low cholesterol levels and they still get heart disease -- and not because they're genetic mutants, but precisely because of their diets.

You are lumping the entire population of indians into one category. There is no evidence that the ones with low cholesterol are the ones getting heart disease (some indian populations eat lots and lots and lots of meat!). The point of me bringing up those studies was to show that plant based diets have a protective effect on the heart, not the opposite as you are so ignorantly suggesting through mere correlation, which does not get us anywhere in terms of long-term dietary studies.

And what is the evidence behind this "protective effect" if not mere correlation?

[JLL]

Btw, which populations eat lots and lots and lots of meat?

[TheFountain]

I think you misunderstood the point... Yes, plant-basedd dietary interventions may well lower cholesterol levels, but so what? Is that a good thing? Indians have low cholesterol levels and they still get heart disease -- and not because they're genetic mutants, but precisely because of their diets.

You are lumping the entire population of indians into one category. There is no evidence that the ones with low cholesterol are the ones getting heart disease (some indian populations eat lots and lots and lots of meat!). The point of me bringing up those studies was to show that plant based diets have a protective effect on the heart, not the opposite as you are so ignorantly suggesting through mere correlation, which does not get us anywhere in terms of long-term dietary studies.

And what is the evidence behind this "protective effect" if not mere correlation?

I just showed you two studies. Did you read them?

[TheFountain]

Btw, which populations eat lots and lots and lots of meat?

I don't think it's as simple as that. I think in some areas of like Pakistan you have large groups of individuals who enjoy 'vegetarian' diets. But heed what is meant in some cases as vegetarian is not synonymous with 'plant based'. A vegetarian diet could be nothing but bread, rice and cereal. Not optimal. We're talking about healthy vegetarianism, I.E the meaning of 'plant based'. Eating nothing but pizza and bread is not a 'plant based' diet.

[ajnast4r]

a huge portion of the indian population has been vegetarian for tens of thousands of years and they have survived and thrived very well...hardly artificial.

You're wrong on this. Vegetarianism came to India along with Buddhism and Jainism around 600 BC.
The early aryans were meat-eaters, including beef.

Unfortunately, this is kinda unpopular, so it doesn't get publicized very much.

Also, Indians are well know to be generally susceptible to heart disease.

2600 years is good in my book

vegetarians in modern western society have lower incidence of heart disease... high heart disease in indian population is likely due to malnutrition of some source and 3rd world lifestyle i would imagine.

Edited by ajnast4r, 21 October 2009 - 10:15 PM.