81 replies to this topic

[Johann]

I usually stop eating in the evening around 7 PM and don't eat again until noon the next day. The difference I feel as opposed to eating late and/or eating breakfast is tremendous. I've read that small amounts of GH are secreted under semi-fasting conditions.

I will try to do longer fasts starting this Thursday eventually working up to 24 h and then maybe two days.

[rwac]

Russians apparently don't have a clue about relation of ketogenic diets to fasting. Probably because most are vegetarian or even raw-food fruitarians. It's like me, I knew about ketosis of starvation and, vaguely, about ketosis of atkins, but only here I put the 2 together.

Is vegetarianism common in Russia ? I would never have guessed.

[FunkOdyssey]

No it definitely is not common in Russia compared to the United States, they love their meat.

[xEva]

Is vegetarianism common in Russia ? I would never have guessed.

No, I meant among the "fasters" - or those who fast often and are into health extension. Nikolayev himself was a vegetarian (lacto-ovo I think, or at least lacto) which was very, very rare in those years in Russia. The current "fasting clinicians" are all vegetarians. Among the people who frequent the fasting site is a relatively large - or maybe just very vocal - group of militant raw-fooders/fruitarians. They are certain that raw is the only natural way for humans to eat, while all the evidence - at least IMO - points otherwise.

FunkOdyssey is right: among the general Russian population, vegetarians are less common than in the US.

Edited by Lexx, 13 September 2009 - 04:28 AM.

[xEva]

JLL, sorry it took me so long to reply to your last post. I have lotsa work now and then I was not sure what to say..

Regarding your question, it takes ~2h for food to empty from stomach into small intestine, where the bulk of digestion takes place. I guess I’m the one to blame for your confusion, because when referred to stomach above I actually meant the whole digestive system (my conservative upbringing forbids referring to gory details of physiology in a polite society, sorry). But now I may as well state the obvious, since your question above shows that you don’t have a clue: digestion starts with a first bite and ends with a flush of a toilet.

I’m not gonna argue with you how long glycogen stores last. I stand by my knowledge: they lasts on average 2d. A good workout can deplete them sooner and one can be trained to store more or make them last longer. I know you want “a reference”, because that’s how you understand “science” on this board, but before you attempt to understand science you may want to get your basics of human physiology straight.

I don’t want it to look like I’m picking on you personally. Rather, I address this to all of you, young males who have taken over this board: Regardless how smart you may consider yourselves, you don’t know life and you don’t understand science. You don’t know how your bodies operate, worse yet, you sorely lack common sense, which means that you don’t know how to use your heads either. On this board you established for yourselves a sci-fi fantasy club and you don’t even see that your neurotic obsession with food and huge amounts of supplements you take daily - even when you “fast”! - is actually a form of an eating disorder.

When a member here says "autophagy begins in as little as 2 hours after you eat" (because that's how long it took for cells in a solution after the nutrients were depleted), why don’t I see your science police straightening him out: "Dude you can't directly apply what goes on in a petri dish to yourself." Why don't you correct him? I can't believe it's because you share his view - surely you’re smarter than that – it rather proves that here you’re engaged in wishful thinking and are unwilling to deal with tough questions that would put doubts in your eating routines and complex supplement regimens.

You request references from me, but I could not get an answer from you how long it takes for a mouse to start starving after its last meal. And I would have believed you without a reference, because I expect you to know this really well. Otherwise, how exactly do you extrapolate all these rodent data - on which you base your behavior! - to human physiology? The unwillingness to deal with "hard questions" on this board only proves that you don’t like to be distracted from your boyish sci-fi fantasies.

You were surprised to learn about the relevance of ketosis to autophagy and demanded references. It never occurred to me to search for such references – it’s like looking for a reference that water is wet. But here they are: google ketones autophagy

You show your lack of common sense by preparing for a fast by gorging on enough food to last you until your next eating hour so that you won’t feel hungry (which reminds me of some crazy Russians who drink a gallon of water in preparation for a dry fast ). And yeah, I'd like to ask you for a reference that it is possible to start starving without feeling hungry.

Here you declared starvation "uncivilized" and hope for a pill that would magically override the underlying chemistry of starvation and yet give you the whole array of its benefits, which shows that your analysis of the situation sucks, because you failed to ask the most crucial question here: What is the metabolic background in which the beneficial processes of starvation take place and is it possible to effectively extract and transplant them into another metabolic context?

Edited by Lexx, 17 September 2009 - 03:51 AM.

[xEva]

The current "fasting clinicians" are all vegetarians.

Actually, not all. The woman who invented and teaches the dry cascade fast method is obviously not a vegetarian, because she recommends breaking the dry fast with fish broth (or chicken broth if fish is not available). But she does not mention ketosis. Her rationale is that it's more natural to start eating with proteins rather than carbs and gives a newborn feeding on milk as an example.

[rollo]

That's very interesting. Please tell me, how long you are on atkins and how long are your fasts, how frequent and how they go? Sorry for so many questions, but this topic really interests me.


If only I could do some serious fasting without suffering through the transitions back and forth... Ah dreams...

Do you think a lacto-ovo vegetarian can do atkins? I love cheese and icecream

it doesn't take 10 days to get into ketosis...

i tried a keto diet during a cut. it would take me 24-30 hours to get into ketosis...

remember that being in the state of ketosis is a mesureable effect, just goto the pharmacy and ask for ketostix, you pee on them and the color tells you the level of ketosis you're in. that in itself is not so usefull since once you're in ketosis and you stay of the carbs you stay in ketosis. also the time of day plus water intake can effect that shows up on the ketostix...

the first time you enter ketosis it can take longer and perhaps be uncomfortable but it gets easier and faster....

i also did an experiment once which seemed to work, on my carb up day which was friday-mid saturday, i took about 400mg of r-ala after my workout, before my postworkout meal and the next day i checked and i was still in ketosis...

[JLL]

I’m not gonna argue with you how long glycogen stores last. I stand by my knowledge: they lasts on average 2d. A good workout can deplete them sooner and one can be trained to store more or make them last longer. I know you want “a reference”, because that’s how you understand “science” on this board, but before you attempt to understand science you may want to get your basics of human physiology straight.

And how do you explain the fact that people go into ketosis in ~24 hours? I have tried this on myself, and apparently rollo has done the same. Or are you saying ketosis kicks in before glycogen is depleted?

I don’t want it to look like I’m picking on you personally. Rather, I address this to all of you, young males who have taken over this board: Regardless how smart you may consider yourselves, you don’t know life and you don’t understand science. You don’t know how your bodies operate, worse yet, you sorely lack common sense, which means that you don’t know how to use your heads either. On this board you established for yourselves a sci-fi fantasy club and you don’t even see that your neurotic obsession with food and huge amounts of supplements you take daily - even when you “fast”! - is actually a form of an eating disorder.

You're just talking out of your ass now. What is an eating disorder exactly? Is your way of fasting an eating disorder? Is 5 supplements a day an eating disorder? 10? 100?

Sorry for asking all these silly questions; it's jsut that I don't know life and I don't understand science.

[xEva]

it doesn't take 10 days to get into ketosis...

i tried a keto diet during a cut. it would take me 24-30 hours to get into ketosis...

remember that being in the state of ketosis is a mesureable effect, just goto the pharmacy and ask for ketostix, you pee on them and the color tells you the level of ketosis you're in. that in itself is not so usefull since once you're in ketosis and you stay of the carbs you stay in ketosis. also the time of day plus water intake can effect that shows up on the ketostix...

the first time you enter ketosis it can take longer and perhaps be uncomfortable but it gets easier and faster....

i also did an experiment once which seemed to work, on my carb up day which was friday-mid saturday, i took about 400mg of r-ala after my workout, before my postworkout meal and the next day i checked and i was still in ketosis...

That's interesting. Thank you for sharing your experience. rwac here says it took him 2 weeks to get into ketosis the first time around. BBs and frequent fasters also say that it takes time and is difficult at first but becomes quick and easy with experience. I also tried r-ALA as well as MCTs (coconut oil) and agree that they work.

The way I understand it now, being on a ketogenic diet matters more for a water fast than for a dry fast, because a dry fast will get you into ketosis quickly and fairly painlessly, regardless of your diet. On a water fast you'll suffer more going through additional mild ketoacidosis, because the body is not accustomed utilizing ketones. -? This is my take on this for now.


JLL, I'm not sure yet how glycogen stores figure in the picture. BBs keep repeating that they have to be depleted for ketosis to ensue - maybe they mean it for the first time around? I guess once you're there it does not matter -? I know that when I got into ketosis via dehydration, my glycogen stores were not completely depleted. The same goes for MCTs that are metabolized to ketones right away.

Russians say that the first crisis of a dry fast (after which you are no longer hungry) happens toward the end of the 2nd day. It makes sense that the glycogen stores have to be depleted for starvation ketosis to kick in full. The hunger goes away soon thereafter, because cortisol, that is normally bound to plasma proteins, becomes free and therefore available, as liver probably starts with plasma proteins when it begins gluconeogenesis. I'm not sure about this yet, it just makes sense to me as to what's going on.

[xEva]

You're just talking out of your ass now. What is an eating disorder exactly? Is your way of fasting an eating disorder? Is 5 supplements a day an eating disorder? 10? 100?

I googled eating disorders just in case and no, there isn't one yet characterized by excessive worries about food and extraordinary amounts of supplements. But wait another 10 years and it'll be there (defined by this board cohort lol). Regarding your question, 5 supplements a day is not an eating disorder, 10 probably not, 100 for sure is

I already went through a phase when I too had my cupboards overflowing with a variety of bottles and boxes - all the good stuff, lol. I'm glad it's over and I wish you a speedy recovery too, for in the process I understood that food is medicine and all these vitamins and supplements are super-powerful medicines and as such they have to be used intelligently and for a specific condition. Taking them just to relieve your anxiety that maybe you're not doing enough to ensure your survival is a sure way to kick your body out of balance. That's what I learned. Even regarding tonics, there is thousand-year tradition that states that they should not be taken day after day without at least 2w breaks. Otherwise, the tradition says, they stop working. Live and learn a little.

Edited by Lexx, 21 September 2009 - 08:10 PM.

[health_nutty]

Okay I admit I don't fast. If I skip even one meal I get in a very miserable, my appetitie is huge even though I'm only 5'10" 150lbs. The most I"ve done is every other day CR where I did it by mostly consuming large quantaties of low cal veggies.

[ForeverYouthful]

What is the science on the benefits of ketosis?

[xEva]

What is the science on the benefits of ketosis?

There are plenty of articles. You may want to start with these:

Ketones: Metabolism’s Ugly Duckling
Theodore B. VanItallie, M.D., and Thomas H. Nufert, B.A.

Ketoacids? Good medicine?
George F. Cahill, Jr and Richard L. Veech

Ketone Bodies, Potential Therapeutic Uses
Richard L. Veech, Britton Chance, Yoshihiro Kashiwaya, Henry A. Lardy and George F. Cahill, Jr.

[xEva]

Okay, 9 months have gone by, here are the answers you've been waiting for with bated breath...

First of all, the last unanswered question: To enter ketosis for the first time around takes at least a week and you need to loose glycogen for this, which takes ~2 days. Once you are in ketosis, you can go out of it by loading on carbs for no longer than 2.5 days. This will leave you one foot in ketosis, to which you return the following day with help of ALA, ALCAR and MCT oil.

Simply having ketones in urine is not quite enough to judge your level of ketosis. It is the level of beta-hydroxybutyrate in plasma that counts, while in urine you measure acetoacetate, whose level does not quite correspond to the level of ketones in plasma.


And now, :::::drum roll::::: the most important question of them all: about mice and men or how to extrapolate rodent CR data to humans:

Reading CR papers I noticed long ago that it takes 24h for a mouse to loose 10% of its weight. And I knew that for an average human, it takes a bit less than a week to loose 10% of his weight, and it may take a month or even two to loose that much weight for an obsese man. In 48h, a poor mouse will loose 20% of its weight, which for an average human will take at least 3-4 weeks. So I knew off the bat that when it comes to starvation, you can't compare mice and men.

But here is what Dr. Thomas N. Seyfried, today's leading authority on ketosis and ketogenic diet, has to say about it:

It must be recognized that caloric restriction in mice is not the same as caloric restriction in humans. Basal metabolic rate is about seven-eight times greater in mice than in humans. A 24-hour fast in mice is comparable to a 6-7-day fast in humans. We recently published a paper showing that a 40 % CR in mice mimics a full therapeutic fast in humans. Thus, the health benefits attributed to CR in mice can be realized in humans who engage in water only therapeutic fasting for at least three to four days.

I can't find the paper he is referring to, but from what I understand, they compared levels of ketones, glucose and FFAs, and how long it takes for a mouse and a human to reach them.

Here is an audio interview with him that Skötkonung posted in IF thread. There he says basically the same thing, plus another tidbit of mouse metabolism: apparently mice eat 25% of their body weight daily.

All of this means that if you want to come close to the CR benefit in mice, you have to fast seriously. 7d fast will not even put most of you in real ketosis. Most poeple need 10 days for this. A serious level of ketosis you will reach only in 2-3 weeks of fasting on water only. Read all about it in papers by Oliver Owen, George Cahill and Richard Veech.

Edited by Lexx, 18 July 2010 - 08:55 PM.

[Logan]

Sorry I'm being lazy and have not read through this entire thread, so the question I am about to ask may have already been answered.

I'm wondering what a typical every other day fast consists of. Is it just water? Just water and juice? Water, juice and a very small amount of food? Just curious.

[Soma]

Oh I get it. Forgot about the demographics here. The vast majority of people on ImmInst are in good health and under 30. There is no need to fast and even when you do, out of curiosity, there is nothing to gain. Wait till you start getting actually old. Your first wrinkles and "age spots"... Then you'll rave about fasting.

Hey Lexx,

Do you know of or have any experience of long term fasting affecting dermal scar tissue (in terms of remodeling)? I have read some anecdotal reports to this effect but have never known whether they have any validity.

[Forever21]

29 years old here.

I am on CRON
but also on every other day fasting.

I'm pretty bad on doing fasting though. I often break it. But I always go back to this diet.

[xEva]

Do you know of or have any experience of long term fasting affecting dermal scar tissue (in terms of remodeling)? I have read some anecdotal reports to this effect but have never known whether they have any validity.

All I read were anecdotal reports. And I think they involved dry fasting. And usually this happens during the refeeding phase.

[MoodyBlue]

Oh I get it. Forgot about the demographics here. The vast majority of people on ImmInst are in good health and under 30. There is no need to fast and even when you do, out of curiosity, there is nothing to gain. Wait till you start getting actually old. Your first wrinkles and "age spots"... Then you'll rave about fasting.

Hey Lexx,

Do you know of or have any experience of long term fasting affecting dermal scar tissue (in terms of remodeling)? I have read some anecdotal reports to this effect but have never known whether they have any validity.

The only thing I know which helps with scar tissue is DMSO (Dimethylsulfoxide). It is a sulfur compound, so the more you get in your body the more you stink. But if your only using a small amount on a small area, it might not even cause a noticable body odor. Here's a quote:

Keloids, scars, acne, and burns
Applied topically and repeatedly, DMSO flattens the raised, nodular, lobulated liner mass of scar tissue in keloids and acne. It takes away much of their discoloration too. And for eliminating the pain of burns of all types, nothing is better.

If you apply it topically, (which you would want to do directly on the scar tissue) you have to make sure the area is thoroughly cleansed and rinsed. The DMSO will carry any chemical or dirt with it through your skin and into your body, so let any chemicals or dirt come in contact with areas of your skin where the DMSO is dried. It takes about 20 minutes after it's applied before it is thoroughly absorbed. Then rinse the area with water and dry. It comes in convenient roll on bottles. Here's a site with a good price: http://www.neeps.com/311553.html. It's veterinary quality which is the best that can be bought. It's not even possible to get a prescription for the medical grade DMSO. Neeps' DMSO is pyrogen and acetone free and 99.85% pure.

A thought just occured to me. The silk worm enzyme, serrapeptase, is supposed to dissolve abnormal stuff inside our bodies including intermal scar tissue when taken orally. Perhaps if you break open a capsule of serrapeptase and apply it over the scar tissue immediately after you've applied DMSO, there will be a much higher concentration of serrapeptase delivered within the scar tissue than could ever get there through your blood stream if you just take it orally.

[bacopa]

Do you know of or have any experience of long term fasting affecting dermal scar tissue (in terms of remodeling)? I have read some anecdotal reports to this effect but have never known whether they have any validity.

All I read were anecdotal reports. And I think they involved dry fasting. And usually this happens during the refeeding phase.

Not to say you shouldn't enjoy your appearance, but I'm wondering why you are more interested in vanity than living a long full life? Maybe you are skeptical of life extension happening so are opting for the more realistic approach. I personally don't see my vanity to be that important, as most of my utils are gained through meaningful relationships not based on physical appearance alone. If we were able to extend life through slowing or halting or reversing the aging process would you NOT take advantage of this?

By the way you do ask very important questions and are obviously intelligent.

[xEva]

Not to say you shouldn't enjoy your appearance, but I'm wondering why you are more interested in vanity than living a long full life? Maybe you are skeptical of life extension happening so are opting for the more realistic approach.

it's because the younger you look the longer you've got. There is no life extension beyond youth extension. Everything else is just postponement of the inevitable.

I personally don't see my vanity to be that important, as most of my utils are gained through meaningful relationships not based on physical appearance alone. If we were able to extend life through slowing or halting or reversing the aging process would you NOT take advantage of this?

Yeah, and we start with acquiring just a bit of sense of humor

By the way you do ask very important questions and are obviously intelligent.

Aya! you don't day say

[bacopa]

to your first statement...what's wrong with postponing the inevitable? We have done that since we knew anything about medicine. Or would you rather live 150 years prior and have a very bad chance of even surviving birth not to mention other diseases that we can now cure. I'm sure you understand that postponing death is the only option we've got.

Also, I don't understand your statement the younger you look the longer you've got...obviously many people who look young die young, and vice versa.

You can read up on what Aubrey is doing with SENS and it's funder the Methuselah Foundation to see that life extension, although in its infancy, is being worked on and it will happen one day, if not for us, then further down the line with future generations.

If you are religious I respect that, but life extension can go hand in hand with religion as in one poll a huge percentage of many people in many countries voiced interest in living even forever, and certainly longer.

Also, and not to harp, but enjoying youth now, will you be happy with normal aging once it gets to a much more extreme level? I would imagine you would desire a means to turn back the clock.

I have always believe that if you enjoy life, and see it's wonders and derive utility from that why not work to postpone the inevitable, because after all, the short time we have now is desirable or you, or none of us would be working to stay youthful and happy.

I think it makes sense that if we can prolong the life of nematodes and fruit flies, the worms by 6 fold, then working on mice and than humans is the next logical step. If I could stay in a biological age of a 27 year old for even 10 years I would gladly take that time, more time, to enjoy, learn, feel healthy etc., and yes, enjoy my vanity.

edit: I have also found in my 8 years of knowing of any "movement" with regards to life extension that some people desire longer life more than others, but I know no one enjoys having to die, and this is evidenced by the people on their death beds trying desperately for any experimental life extending treatments, and this includes the elderly. I have heard this both anecdotally and read first hand of how cancer patients, yes many elderly, will try so hard to get anything that will help them.

Many people don't die easily, and without a fight, but I can see how if you are already near the end why one does inevitably accept things, so we're trying, hoping, that we can make it so it doesn't get to that point. Personally I asked my dad at age 5 if it could be possible to one day stop aging, and he said, "yes one day that will happen." By the way, I have no problems with your personal opinions on whether you choose to accept death or not, I just wanted to ask why you seemed so focused on vanity, to which you explained that it was said in a joking manner.

Edited by dfowler, 21 July 2010 - 03:28 AM.