81 replies to this topic

[JLL]

How does protein cycling on Atkins work?

I did a little experiment too. Ate low-carb, low-calorie on the first day, and then fasted for 24 hours without food or water. The first 12 hours were alright, but after that, I just felt exhausted. In the evening, maybe at 10 PM, the exhaustion passed and I felt very energetic. Just before sleep, I drank a glass of water. Did not sleep very well; I woke up at 6 AM without an alarm clock.

On the third day I ate a ketogenic diet (less than 20 grams of carbs, possibly less than 10 g). Eating felt pretty damn good at this point. I used a Ketostix strip and was indeed in ketosis. On the fourth morning (today), I was still in ketosis, as was to be expected.

Now I'm eating carbs again to see how quickly it passes.

What's funny is that during my usual 24-hour fast, I either don't feel exhausted at all, or feel exhausted for about an hour, after which it passes. I do drink water, coffee and tea, however. With the dry fast, I was tired (and hungry and thirsty) almost the entire day.

I'll have to measure whether I go into ketosis during these normal 24-hour fasts or not. It would be interesting to know how exactly autophagy relates to this.

In any case, a 24-hour dry fast does seem like a quick way to get into ketosis.

[okok]

I find running to be a very effective ketosis inducer. Also you mobilize and get rid of toxins. Plus reduces carb cravings. Plus gives you 10 more years of life expectancy.

[rwac]

How does protein cycling on Atkins work?

Well, too many carbs are a no-no.
Basically, I eat veggies and olive oil or High-fat yogurt (comparatively low protein) or buttermilk (still lowish protein) or make a milkshake with cream, coconut milk, etc.

[Brainbox]

I would be very interested in the full text of the Russian papers since I'm also trying to read-up in this matter.

Here is an "executive summary" of the method developed by Yuri Nikolayev, M.D. It's in Russian http://www.neizlechimih.net/med.html
I could swear I saw the English translation sometime last year, but after googling for an hour, I can't find it. I'll try to find it, and if not, maybe I'll translate it.

Here is the Russian text of his popular book "fasting for health" http://www.poprirode...di_zdorovia.doc

Nikolayev was a psychiatrist and initially applied therapeutic fasting to treat schizophrenia. In the process they noticed that it improved or cured other chronic conditions. His son is active on the Russian fasting forum http://www.golodanie.su/forum/. His nik is anyk99 and his speak good English. Maybe he has links to English translations of his father's works.

Thanks.

A bit strange perhaps it is, translation of google is be to read good.
http://translate.goo...history_state0=

[JulieAdam]

I find longer fasts more difficult and less useful than EOD. .
I fast 24 hours 3 times a week to increase autophagy, even though I'm under 30.

[JLL]

I find running to be a very effective ketosis inducer. Also you mobilize and get rid of toxins. Plus reduces carb cravings. Plus gives you 10 more years of life expectancy.

What exactly are these "toxins" people keep mentioning?

[JLL]

I would be very interested in the full text of the Russian papers since I'm also trying to read-up in this matter.

Here is an "executive summary" of the method developed by Yuri Nikolayev, M.D. It's in Russian http://www.neizlechimih.net/med.html
I could swear I saw the English translation sometime last year, but after googling for an hour, I can't find it. I'll try to find it, and if not, maybe I'll translate it.

Here is the Russian text of his popular book "fasting for health" http://www.poprirode...di_zdorovia.doc

Nikolayev was a psychiatrist and initially applied therapeutic fasting to treat schizophrenia. In the process they noticed that it improved or cured other chronic conditions. His son is active on the Russian fasting forum http://www.golodanie.su/forum/. His nik is anyk99 and his speak good English. Maybe he has links to English translations of his father's works.

Thanks.

A bit strange perhaps it is, translation of google is be to read good.
http://translate.goo...history_state0=

It's surprisingly readable. Are they talking about dry fasting or water fasting though?

EDIT: Water fasting, apparently: "Nikolayev and subsequent years, significantly supplemented by other experts in RTD is the voluntary abstinence from food with an unlimited (in the case of total starvation) use of water and a number of detoxification hygienic procedures (water therapy, daily cleaning enema, etc.) followed by recovery diet food in a special circuit."

Edited by JLL, 27 August 2009 - 07:26 AM.

[xEva]

A bit strange perhaps it is, translation of google is be to read good.
http://translate.goo...history_state0=

That's was not the right page, sorry. This one is better:
http://golodanie.su/...wthread.php?t=7
It's the summary of Nikolayev's method.

[xEva]

You know, that page is bogus too. Upon close examination, it's an article authored by the owner of the site and he "improved" on Nikolayev substantially without even indicating what is the authentic info and what are his "improvements".

Regarding the question of toxins - I guess they are dumped into the bloodstream when the housecleaning starts in earnest. How bad it can be depends on how "clean" you are. It's not necessarily your diet or habits though. It can be also due to the pathology left by an infection.

I'm trying to read on ketosis. There is a lot of confusion and misunderstandings. For example, it is believed that ketone bodies cause dehydration, but my experience rather indicates that excess water prevents the "fires of ketosis" from burning cleanly. That's why the body removes excess of it.

I am looking for supplements that would promote the efficient ketotic metabolism. BBs recommend ALA, EPA and DHA, + niacin. Then I'm thinking that sugar alcohols should go well on ketosis -? I know xylitol goes well with it.

On Sun, when I was berry-picking in the woods, I was intrigued how different berries tasted on ketosis. The normally sweet blueberry appeared tart and its sweetness stung, while its relative (can't find what it's called), that normally tastes bland, appeared "cool' and pleasantly sweet and thirst-quenching. It has a sugar that goes very well on ketosis.

The underlying chemistry of ketosis is completely different from the normal metabolism and it is not well understood, especially as it applies to fasting. If someone has a link to a good article on ketosis, please post.

Edited by Lex, 29 August 2009 - 05:33 AM.

[rwac]

What exactly are these "toxins" people keep mentioning?

http://www3.intersci...l...=1&SRETRY=0

Autophagy, organelles and ageing

Abstract

As a result of insufficient digestion of oxidatively damaged macromolecules and organelles by autophagy and other degradative systems, long-lived postmitotic cells, such as cardiac myocytes, neurons and retinal pigment epithelial cells, progressively accumulate biological garbage (waste materials). The latter include lipofuscin (a non-degradable intralysosomal polymeric substance), defective mitochondria and other organelles, and aberrant proteins, often forming aggregates (aggresomes). An interaction between senescent lipofuscin-loaded lysosomes and mitochondria seems to play a pivotal role in the progress of cellular ageing. Lipofuscin deposition hampers autophagic mitochondrial turnover, promoting the accumulation of senescent mitochondria, which are deficient in ATP production but produce increased amounts of reactive oxygen species. Increased oxidative stress, in turn, further enhances damage to both mitochondria and lysosomes, thus diminishing adaptability, triggering mitochondrial and lysosomal pro-apoptotic pathways, and culminating in cell death. Copyright © 2007 Pathological Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Published by John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

Does that answer your question ?

[xEva]

I have a hunch that toxicosis during fasting is caused by byproducts of incomplete "combustion" so to speak. Somehow I believe that the"fires of ketosis" can burn clean, without leaving these toxic byproducts.

Ketones are volatile compounds and ideally they should mop up the toxins and then be simply exhaled. In this regard lotsa moderate exercises on fresh air during a fast makes perfect sense. Breathing toxins out seems a better deal than having to remove them via kidneys or liver, the usual way (and indure toxicosis in the meantime).

The more I think about it, the more it becomes apparent that a true fast is the dry fast. Fasting on water or juice is inefficient half-measure. Of course, dry fasts can be quite dangerous, and the info I saw was puzzling. For example, dry fasts can kill someone with kidney disease - and yet I saw several reports that kidney stones "disappeared" after a dry fast. The people did not pass the stones - no one could miss that, lol - so the stones had to be "burned".

Regarding autophagy, any damage to a cell will promote it. From radiation to excess heat, to a poison. To me it seems that autophagy of starvation is the safest deal of all. Like VidX said, we just have to optimize the process.

Edited by Lex, 29 August 2009 - 07:19 AM.

[JLL]

As a result of insufficient digestion of oxidatively damaged macromolecules and organelles by autophagy and other degradative systems, long-lived postmitotic cells, such as cardiac myocytes, neurons and retinal pigment epithelial cells, progressively accumulate biological garbage (waste materials). The latter include lipofuscin (a non-degradable intralysosomal polymeric substance), defective mitochondria and other organelles, and aberrant proteins, often forming aggregates (aggresomes). An interaction between senescent lipofuscin-loaded lysosomes and mitochondria seems to play a pivotal role in the progress of cellular ageing. Lipofuscin deposition hampers autophagic mitochondrial turnover, promoting the accumulation of senescent mitochondria, which are deficient in ATP production but produce increased amounts of reactive oxygen species. Increased oxidative stress, in turn, further enhances damage to both mitochondria and lysosomes, thus diminishing adaptability, triggering mitochondrial and lysosomal pro-apoptotic pathways, and culminating in cell death. Copyright © 2007 Pathological Society of Great Britain and Ireland. Published by John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

Does that answer your question ?

Well I know autophagy gets rid of waste matter, but 'toxin' has a different ring to it; like you're getting rid of poisons in your body. And all these claims about "drinking water gets rid of toxins" just seem fake. The whole detoxification concept does -- IMO, the people who use this term are not referring to autophagy.

[russianBEAR]

If I fasted I'd probably die or be able to hide behind a piece of paper turned sideways I get blown away by the wind as it is, and can have a really fast metabolism. 

Can't imagine fasting being beneficial for me at all, maybe I'm just scared for my tummy though

My friends have done it and they liked the results, but these guys are about 2-3 times my weight

[xEva]

Well I know autophagy gets rid of waste matter, but 'toxin' has a different ring to it; like you're getting rid of poisons in your body. And all these claims about "drinking water gets rid of toxins" just seem fake. The whole detoxification concept does -- IMO, the people who use this term are not referring to autophagy.

It's a good question. When toxicosis is experienced during a fast, in your opinion, where do these toxins come from? Are they stored intracellulary or somewhere else? Detoxification does take place during a fast.

I was wondering why most people who try dry and "wet" fasting agree that dry fasts are easier. In my experiments with dry fasts (no more than 48h), there is no ketoacidosis and then there is no symptoms of toxicosis. I'm not sure why.

If I did not experience toxicosis during a fast, does it mean that it did not have any cleansing effect at all? The results of the dry fasts were apparent in improved skin tone and tonus (and I'd like to think that the same changes took place internally). Is it possible that toxins were removed efficiently, without lingering and causing symptoms of toxicosis?

It'd be good to know where these toxins live and why wet and dry fasts deal with them differently.

[JLL]

What is toxicosis? If it's to do with autophagy, then it's about clearing intracellular junk. IMO, junk is not the same thing as toxin. My room is full of junk but it's not toxic.

I found the 24 hour dry fast much, much harder than a 24 hour wet fast. Not sure about ketoacidosis, but it did result in ketosis. Didn't see any change in skin tone.

[xEva]

Toxicosis, because you feel poisoned: nausea is the key word here +headache and malaise. Have you ever experienced toxicity? How about your first cigarette? Or a hangover from cheap booze - what you never partied at school, lol? Those are the symptoms.

At some point in a water fast you may experience something similar - or 100 times worse. I call it toxicosis - perhaps it's not a right word, but it feels like toxins. Where they hide and why they come out en masse, I'm not sure. And why is it so much worse fasting on water than dry - that's what I was trying to figure out.

In the course of this discussion I understood that ketosis of therapeutic starvation, when all goes well, can be characterized by optimal concentrations of fatty acids, ketone bodies and yes, acetone, that fantastic solvent. If it can dissolve plastics and crazy glue, I think should dissolve lipofuscin, even though I have not checked this. And of course, you need lotsa O2 to keep those fires of ketosis burning. That's why physical activity on fresh air in cold weather is essential. All the crap is simply breathed out, you feel great, no toxicosis. Yay!

How to achieve this "optimal ketosis of therapeutic starvation", I obviously don't know and I doubt anyone knows at this point. It has not been studied. From my experience I know sauerkraut juice with its lactic and acetic acids is good. Some fats are good. Some alcohols may be good. CO2 mineral water is good. Too much water though is definitely a no-no. Too much water brings on toxicosis - I think because it dilutes optimal concentrations of relevant molecules and prevents them from being volatile. I'm obviously not a biochemist, lol, but I have always been a damn good analyst.

I found the 24 hour dry fast much, much harder than a 24 hour wet fast. Not sure about ketoacidosis, but it did result in ketosis. Didn't see any change in skin tone.

You should try entering the fast on empty stomach - well at least do not pig out the day before. To see changes in skin you should dry fast 36-48h once a week for 3 weeks - and you will definitely see the results. Else you're not old enough lol.

[JLL]

I don't know... 48 hours without water seems like pushing it.

And yeah, I've had hangovers (which have nothing to do with how cheap the alcohol is), but I wouldn't call it poisoning. I also didn't feel any hangover-like effect during the fast, just felt weak, hungry and thirsty.

[xEva]

See, if you'd had a hangover from real cheep alcohol, you'd know what poison is, lol.

48h pushing it? You should see those tough Russians dry fasting 11 days! But who am I to say, I've never pushed that far either. The consensus though is that 3 days dry fast is okay for most people of average health.

You start slow, of course and the key = you should have empty stomach when you start a fast. Otherwise, what you have is a slow digestion of a huge meal you had the day before. That's not a fast. You need water for digestion. If you dry fast on a full stomach, you get yourself a brick that will sit there well past your fast, and that will have deleterious effect on your complexion.

[russianBEAR]

Does fasting count if I was so jacked on meth I forgot all about food for about 24 hours if not more ? 

[VespeneGas]

This thread needs a lot more science.

I've never seen any evidence at all that 'toxicosis' occurs at all, much less during a fast. Sounds like liver failure. Could you please explain what 'toxins' are being removed from the body, through what mechanism, and provide evidence that this occurs?

Fasting appears to decrease gluthathione concentrations in the liver of rats, because liver glutathione is used as a cysteine reservoir during fasting:

Tissue Glutathione as a Cyst(e)ine Reservoir during Fasting and Refeeding of Rats^1,2<a name="RFN2">^,
Ei Soon Cho, Nadine Sahyoun and Lewis D. Stegink

Departments of Home Economics, Pediatrics and Biochemistry, The University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242



Previous reports suggest that liver glutathione serves as a cyst(e)ine reservoir in both starved rats and rats fed a cyst(e)ine-deficient diet. We investigated whether glutathione concentrations in other tissues also decrease and whether component amino acids of glutathione increase under such conditions. Tissue glutathione and free amino acid concentrations were measured in six groups of growing rats (120–150 g; four animals/group) during fasting and refeeding regimens. All animals were fed a rat stock diet ad libitum for 5 days. Two groups were then fasted for 24 or 48 hours, respectively. Other groups were fasted for 48 hours and then refed for 10, 24 or 48 hours respectively the stock diet. Significant changes (P 0.05) in liver and intestine glutathione concentrations were noted with 24 and 48-hour fasting, and a 24-hour refeeding was necessary to return concentrations to prefasting values. Muscle glutathione concentrations decreased slightly with fasting, but remained low with refeeding. Erythrocyte glutathione concentrations were independent of dietary treatment. Liver cysteine and glycine concentrations increased after 24 hours' fasting, but glutamate levels were not affected. The data indicate that liver and intestine glutathione serve as cyst(e)ine reservoirs during fasting. Since erythrocyte and muscle glutathione levels did not decrease, levels in these tissues cannot be used to measure cyst(e)ine status in premature infants fed parenterally.

This seems to reach the same conclusion:

The influence of fasting on liver sulfhydryl groups, glutathione peroxidase and glutathione-S-transferase activities in the rat.
Szkudelski T, Okulicz M, Bialik I, Szkudelska K. Department of Animal Physiology and Biochemistry, University of Agriculture, 60-637 Wolynska 35, Poznan, Poland. tszkudel@jay.au.poznan.pl

Sulfhydryl groups, glutathione peroxidase (GPx) and glutathione-S-transferase (GST) are important elements of the antioxidant defence in the organism. The efficacy of their antioxidant action is influenced by many factors. In this work, the effect of fasting on total, protein-bound and nonprotein sulfhydryl groups and on the activity of liver and serum GPx and GST in rats were determined. Male Wistar rats were divided into two groups: non-fasted and 18-hour fasted. In fasted animals liver content of nonprotein sulfhydryl groups (represented predominantly by reduced glutathione; GSH) was diminished by 22% in comparison to non-fasted group, whereas total and protein-bound -SH groups were unaffected. The activity of liver and serum GPx was unchanged in food deprived rats. In these animals the activity of GST in serum was reduced by 26%. Fasting had no significant effect on the activity of GST in the liver. Our results demonstrate that in rats deprived of food for 18 hours liver and serum GPx and GST are not involved in protection against action of reactive oxygen species formed during fasting. The observed drop in the content of liver nonprotein sulfhydryl groups without concomitant rise in the activity of GPx and GST indicates that this effect may be due to augmented degradation of GSH, its potentiated efflux from hepatocytes and formation of conjugates with intermediates arising as a result of reactive oxygen species action.

PMID: 15352379 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

So in order to maintain healthy glutathione levels in muscle and other peripheral tissues, the reservoir of cysteine (liver glutathione) is tapped, which would theoretically result in impaired phase II detoxification. This might be why you feel sick during longer fasts, but I'd say it's more likely just hypoglycemia or pathological changes in electrolyte concentration due to ingesting only water.

I'd also like to repeat niner's request that you produce evidence that effective fasting-induced autophagy requires ketosis.

Thanks!

[xEva]

JLL, I browsed through you blog today. It's very good. It's funny how my last message to you was right on the money (the mysterious ways in which the mind works have always fascinated me): you do tend to pig out before you fast.

Anyways, so far I tried to avoid stating the obvious, because I assumed that all of you here are very knowledgeable in basics of human physiology, especially as far as digestion is concerned. But I guess I was wrong. So, let me reiterate: NEVER EVER FAST WITHOUT WATER UNLESS YOU HAVE EMPTY STOMACH.

Reading your blog, I understand how psychologically a fast starts the moment you put your fork down. But I hope you'll agree that physiologically as long as there is food is in your system, it is still being digested and utilized - and if so, how is that a fast?

The body really starts fasting when you're experiencing your first hunger pangs. Until then you live on what you just ate and then glycogen stores. So, from reading your blog I think the longest you ever fasted is 15 mins, because that's how long you wait for ravenous hunger to go away, else you eat. And I agree that this way of eating is healthy.

I hope you'll never again make the mistake of fasting without water on a full stomach. Of course, there are unnatural ways of meeting this condition, but I personally dislike them. So, I ease myself into a dry fast with a day or two on water and liquids like coffee or diluted sauerkraut juice. After that, if I feel like it, I'll go 36-48h dry and after that may last another day with water. Other people, I've read, graze the day before they fast on raw white cabbage or a similar fodder that will not cause problems when you get dehydrated. Recently I also found that drinking flax seed oil on the day before a dry fast is really helpful.

And yeah, beer goes really well during a short fast

[xEva]

'VespeneGas, I just saw your post. I guess I took a long time editing my previous message. I'll reply shortly.

[xEva]

This thread needs a lot more science.

I've never seen any evidence at all that 'toxicosis' occurs at all, much less during a fast. Sounds like liver failure. Could you please explain what 'toxins' are being removed from the body, through what mechanism, and provide evidence that this occurs?

So in order to maintain healthy glutathione levels in muscle and other peripheral tissues, the reservoir of cysteine (liver glutathione) is tapped, which would theoretically result in impaired phase II detoxification. This might be why you feel sick during longer fasts, but I'd say it's more likely just hypoglycemia or pathological changes in electrolyte concentration due to ingesting only water.

I'd also like to repeat niner's request that you produce evidence that effective fasting-induced autophagy requires ketosis.

Thanks!

I thought it over and you may be right about liver (even though "failure" sounds scary). Yes, when I fasted on water for 12 days back when I was 23, I don't recall having such symptoms. I used to think that maybe back then my body was "cleaner", but now I see your input as confirmation of my long-standing suspicion that I got hep C sometime between then and my subsequent fast with that dramatic toxicosis described above. So, thank you for pointing this out.

As far as evidence that "effective fasting-induced autophagy requires ketosis", in my mind it's a given. But it's not that therapeutic starvation "requires" ketosis. Rather, ketosis ensues naturally, always and without fail when you starve. That's a fact.

Clearly, there is difference in what you and I mean by fasting. I mean "therapeutic starvation". You at ImmInst mean "temporary abstinence from food while living on your glycogen stores". The way I learned about fasting, the real, truly dramatic effects do not start until you experience hunger and enter fully into ketosis.

I have been researching "therapeutic starvation" for decades, ever since I saw a documentary about Nikolayev fasting clinic back in Russia. Sorry that I am more interested in actual knowledge than collecting references, even though I myself appreciate provided references very much (I too am a cerebral type and require science for optimal functioning). The funny thing is, I come to ImmInst from time to time for inspiration, when my fasting gets tough. Search "starvation" and see in how many ways it is good for you, from autophagy to activation of sirtuins, to fixing errors in transcription factors, etc. The list is endless and IMO it's all good.

And! Talking about "therapeutic starvation" we should not forget that "starvation" is only a half of the method. The second half is "restoration". That's when you start with very small amounts of food and eat every 3-4h and make sure that you get optimal nutrition. The analogy here is that during the first phase you knock the walls down and clear the trash, and now you rebuild the house with quality materials.

[rwac]

Clearly, there is difference in what you and I mean by fasting. I mean "therapeutic starvation". You at ImmInst mean "temporary abstinence from food while living on your glycogen stores". The way I learned about fasting, the real, truly dramatic effects do not start until you experience hunger and enter fully into ketosis.

I wanted to make a couple of points.

If you're already in ketosis, glycogen stores are near zero, so you'll start autophagy quickly.

Even if you have glycogen stores, you still need protein, and the only source of that is autophagy, if you're fasting. Perhaps the autophagy doesn't go as deep, though ....

[xEva]

rwac, yes, that's what I understood in the course of this discussion: if you are already in ketosis, you're already half-way into the fast. I wanna keep talking to you guys, cause with each exchange I get a different view on the subject and learn a lot. Like we say in Russian, one head is good but two heads are better

I've read your book on protein cycling - could not put it down and swallowed it in one night. You make an excellent science writer on par with my long-time favorites like Gina Kolata and Carl Zimmer. I wish I had a tiny bit of your knowledge of metabolism and biochemistry.



VespeneGas, I guess what I wanted to say about "evidence", in all these years reading about fasting, on and off, I have never seen reports, in Russian literature or forum "anecdotal accounts", that short fasts (less than 3 days) had dramatic results.

Sure, these "light days" are good for you, they regulate your health in many ways. But to cure a long-standing chronic condition requires a long fast, and during such a fast it is common to have various very nasty symptoms. For example, smokers would start reeking of stale tobacco, commonly in the second week of the water fast, and then the smallest whiff of smoke can bring up in them severe nausea. People with chronic sinusitis or periodontal disease would have puss and blood oozing out. It's not pretty. Depending on the pathology, one can experience severe pain in that part of the body. I saw 2-3 reports of hernias healing completely in the course of a long fast that included 7-10 "dry days". That's very dramatic.

And yes, I saw many reports that age spots get lighter or go away after a fast. I have never, ever seen anything so dramatic in regard to 2-3 "unloading" days (unless it's a dry fast and it is repeated, it's called "cascade fasting").

Imagine, Russians cure sarcoidosis with a series of long fasts and that includes not only resolution of symptoms but clearance of scar tissue. I never saw anything of the sort resulting after a few days of fasting, even though if IF is a way of life, I think it should have positive effects in the long run. I just have not seen many Russians fast that way. If they fast, they fast seriously 1-4 times a year.

Also, I saw many times, experienced people say that cosmetic results of a long fast (2-4 weeks) will last only 2-3 months tops after you resume your normal way of eating. They all say that to secure the results, you have to fast again no later than in 2 months. The latest trend is "cascade fasting". People say (including "clinicians") that these are really effective to secure results long-term. "Cascade fasting" usually involves 3 fasts, with the first lasting 5-10 days, second lasting 14-21 days and the 3rd 7-14 days, with several weeks of "restoration" in between.

There are many methods. You want scientific reports. There are papers and a few books in Russian. Then there is this Russian fasting forum. I am not here to prove anything to anyone. I am here to learn and share info.

Edited by Lexx, 05 September 2009 - 05:11 AM.

[rwac]

I've read your book on protein cycling.

As much as I find that flattering, I didn't write the book.

However, the writer (remig) is on here occasionally.
http://www.imminst.o...&...st&p=302880

[xEva]

Oops! Sorry for the confusion

[JLL]

Reading your blog, I understand how psychologically a fast starts the moment you put your fork down. But I hope you'll agree that physiologically as long as there is food is in your system, it is still being digested and utilized - and if so, how is that a fast?

The body really starts fasting when you're experiencing your first hunger pangs. Until then you live on what you just ate and then glycogen stores. So, from reading your blog I think the longest you ever fasted is 15 mins, because that's how long you wait for ravenous hunger to go away, else you eat. And I agree that this way of eating is healthy.

From what I've read, liver stores of glycogen are depleted in 6 to 10 hours.

When you fast, the liver store of glycogen gets used up in 8 to 10 hours, and muscle glycogen reduces by about 50 percent in 24 hours.

http://donmatesz.blo...oes-part-2.html

First things first, let’s define fasting. A simple timeline showing the various states of the body will be useful here (baseline is the end of the previous meal):
- Up to about 3 hours: the “fed” state
- From 3 to about 12-18 hours: the “postabsorptive” or “early fasting” state
- Up to about 2 days: the “fasting” state
- Beyond 2 days: “starvation” state or “long-term fasting”

http://www.fitnesssp...rgy-production/

I disagree that hunger pangs begin when digestion ends. Rather, hunger pangs begin when glycogen stores are depleted and disappear when the switch to ketones happens. I guess when "fasting begins" depends on how you define it. It seems to me that, based on the above (and Wikipedia), digestion takes about 3-4 hours, and is followed by 8-12 hours of using liver glycogen stores. That's 11-16 hours after the last meal, after which I would say you're in the fasted state. For each 24 hour fast, that'd be 8-13 hours of fasting, which is surely better than nothing.

I've never claimed 24/24 hour intermittent fasting is better than longer fasts, but it's been shown to have benefits, and it's easy to do.

I'm also not sure that as long as there is food in the system, it's being digested, but I don't know. Someone else care to comment?

Edited by JLL, 05 September 2009 - 11:37 AM.

[Sillewater]

Interesting stuff Lexx.

I have always wondered about how long a fast should really last. According to you it should last a pretty long time, the reason most ppl do 24/24 is because it easily fits into our everyday life, so a 3 day fast would be quite a dent, but only doing it 1-4 times per year makes it easier. However for me it feels better to have a consistent schedule.

I started to change my fasts a couple of weeks ago: I end dinner at around 8pm and don't consider my fast started until 8am the next morning. Then I do some sprint training, and weight training and I can feel myself jump into full blown ketosis. I fast until 8am the next day, and I feel this is more effective compared to my "12-hour" fasts before (from the time I put down my fork). I'm only 22 so it might be difficult to notice changes in my skin, but it does look smoother. Also my 24-hour fast is a dry fast, with only a cup of water in the morning.

In your opinion is it better to have a consistent schedule or do it 4 times a year type thing.

[xEva]

Sillewater, I think what you are doing is great, especially if you are on a ketogenic diet.

In Russian terms, a decent length water fast is at least 2 weeks. That's what people do 1-4 times a year (12-40d water fasts). 3d fasts they (=the dedicated ones) do once once a month in addition to one day a week (=36h), which is not called a fast, but a "light" or "unloading" day. A water fast is at least 3 days or it's not called a fast, but dry fasts are fasts from 24h up. That's how they treat it.

I'm reading now on ketogenic diets and ketosis. If done right, you can be in ketosis and then 6-8h after you stop eating carbs or proteins (remaining on fats like MCT+ L-carnitine) you are in starvation ketosis, with all the cell and body machinery already in place and running smoothly. I am experimenting with various supplements, like MCT and carnitine, ALA, minerals and dry fasting. I am certain it can be done right and without much suffering. I wish someone could help me by offering advice or insight. Thanks.

If you want to fast effectively and short, it's a dry fast (but I myself never fasted without water longer than 48h). I used to think that 3d was tops a human can live without water, then I saw people fast without water for 7 days and thought that was way too much. Recently I've been reading that Russian modern-day fasting "clinics" consider 11d dry fast very effective to cure just about anything. People who went through this sort of ordeal say that the first 7d dry fast is very hard but the subsequent 9-11day fast is "twice as easy" (that's how they do it in the clinic: the first 5-7d dry fast followed by the second 9-11d dry fast after ~5 feeding days). Also, they fast there in groups, which makes it easier, and they are required to get used to weekly 1-5d dry fasts at home before coming to the clinic. Oh yeah, and they are requested to arrive to the clinic on their 3rd dry fasting day. Cool eh? The clinic is in remote Altai mountains, which makes for most people 2d travel.

The literature says that before fasting, one has to clean up the digestive tract and liver (by inducing extensinve bile release), then fast 1-3days weekly on water, and after that start with 1d dry weekly fasts.

Regarding toxicosis, they say it's to be expected during a fast, regardless of liver disease. Other than that, nausea is a common reaction to gucagon, which is the main hormone that switches body to ketosis. Release of stored toxins is one of the therapies of starvation and cleaning up digestive tract and liver can almost prevent it. They say that toxins are "burned" during a dry fast (not sure how yet, Russians are not keen on biochemistry) and during a wet fast they are removed by kidneys.

Russians apparently don't have a clue about relation of ketogenic diets to fasting. Probably because most are vegetarian or even raw-food fruitarians. It's like me, I knew about ketosis of starvation and, vaguely, about ketosis of atkins, but only here I put the 2 together. Apparently, nobody here made this connection either. At least I have not seen it mentioned in this context before. I feel like a pioneer hehe

Edited by Lexx, 13 September 2009 - 01:46 AM.