81 replies to this topic

[xEva]

Hello,

I'd like to know how many people here fast at least 3-4 days in a row (water only), once in a while. The search I did gave me an impression that fasts other than EOD are not encouranged here. I would like to know why.

[SloMoSandy]

Yeah, I'm still lookin' for an answer if occasional fasts (when NOT on CR) are beneficial, as I got an impression that some ppl are sceptical about this. I was planning' to try like 2-3 a month fasts with exercising (partuculary cardio, to induce shortage of oxygen) and taking some of the autophagy promoting supps on these days.

Edited by VidX, 18 August 2009 - 07:54 AM.

[JLL]

I find longer fasts more difficult and less useful than EOD.

[xEva]

Oh I get it. Forgot about the demographics here. The vast majority of people on ImmInst are in good health and under 30. There is no need to fast and even when you do, out of curiosity, there is nothing to gain. Wait till you start getting actually old. Your first wrinkles and "age spots"... Then you'll rave about fasting.

until then...

[JLL]

We are all getting old, no matter what age we are. I fast 24 hours 3 times a week to increase autophagy, even though I'm under 30. Better late than never but even better soon.

How is a 3 day fast going to help with wrinkles?

[xEva]

"Fast 24h" sounds like you fast the whole day, while from what I've seen here, in practice you actually eat every single day! lol But who am I to judge. Before I hit 30, I fasted only once, almost 2 weeks (out of curiosity). During my adult life it's been normal for me to not eat for a day or two (just don't feel like it) but I never called it fasting. But I guess it's just semantics. I'll adjust.

To answer you question, 3days fast is actually not enough to help with wrinkles and uneven skin tone (unless it's a "dry fast"). Acording to the extensive Russian research and clinical experience (they used to have therapeutic fasting clinics run by the state medical board back in the Soviet era), ketosis is required for effective autophagy to take place. And fasting on water only, it takes 3-4 days on average just to get there, past ketoacidosis.

Also, according to Russian clinical experience, "cheating" with even a squeeze of lemon in your water (not to mention supplements) hampers this process and invariably leads to obvious signs of malnutrition and pathology. This old Russian clinical observation is supported by the current research (ex. insulin inhibits autophagy).

So it seems to me that CR or IF are not sufficient to really appreciate the power of autophagy. True, the process of getting into ketosis via ketoaocidosis is not pleasant (even though it goes faster and smoother with practice) but results are worth it. Relevant to this site, on a Russian fasting forum many people report disappearance or lightening of some of the "age spots", implying that lipofuscin can be broken and cleared from cells in a course of a prolonged fast.

[JLL]

"Fast 24h" sounds like you fast the whole day, while from what I've seen here, in practice you actually eat every single day! lol But who am I to judge. Before I hit 30, I fasted only once, almost 2 weeks (out of curiosity). During my adult life it's been normal for me to not eat for a day or two (just don't feel like it) but I never called it fasting. But I guess it's just semantics. I'll adjust.

To answer you question, 3days fast is actually not enough to help with wrinkles and uneven skin tone (unless it's a "dry fast"). Acording to the extensive Russian research and clinical experience (they used to have therapeutic fasting clinics run by the state medical board back in the Soviet era), ketosis is required for effective autophagy to take place. And fasting on water only, it takes 3-4 days on average just to get there, past ketoacidosis.

Also, according to Russian clinical experience, "cheating" with even a squeeze of lemon in your water (not to mention supplements) hampers this process and invariably leads to obvious signs of malnutrition and pathology. This old Russian clinical observation is supported by the current research (ex. insulin inhibits autophagy).

So it seems to me that CR or IF are not sufficient to really appreciate the power of autophagy. True, the process of getting into ketosis via ketoaocidosis is not pleasant (even though it goes faster and smoother with practice) but results are worth it. Relevant to this site, on a Russian fasting forum many people report disappearance or lightening of some of the "age spots", implying that lipofuscin can be broken and cleared from cells in a course of a prolonged fast.

Interesting. Any studies to back this up?

As for CR, if you block autophagy, CR fails to extend lifespan. Therefore, it seems to me that CR activates autophagy. And as for IF, autophagy begins in less than 24 hours, so even a 24-hour fast should activate it.

You could be right, of course, that a longer fast is even better. But the question is, is one 3-day fast once or twice a month better than 24/24 hour intermittent fasting? I know IF is easier for me, at least.

Why would lemon be bad for autophagy?

[SloMoSandy]

Yep, the question is not about whether we should chose CR over IF to achieve any remarkable results, the question is - how effective (if at all) is occasional fasting for a few days a month.
I'm somewhat sure it should be beneficial in at least some way, maybe even unnoticeable (in cellular level).

As for lipofuscin, age spots, etc.. - first thing I'd do (to prevent and maybe "cure) is to eliminate ALL the processed/fried/grilled/unnatural food for EVER. I've already done that actually. First things first imho, then we can try to do something more complicated, but if you eat the same stuff you've ate for years (and if it's a "bad" stuff) there's no need to go any further as u've already failed.

Edited by VidX, 20 August 2009 - 09:09 AM.

[xEva]

Any studies to back this up?

The literature I saw was all in Russian. Most of the studies were done in the 40-80s and naturally they were not even close to the current level. The advantage they have though is that their subjects were humans, not mice. There was a lot of speculation as to what exactly goes on and how the process works. Most of it turned out spot on: autophagy and DNA repair.

As for CR, if you block autophagy, CR fails to extend lifespan. Therefore, it seems to me that CR activates autophagy. And as for IF, autophagy begins in less than 24 hours, so even a 24-hour fast should activate it.

Any studies on humans to back this up?

I saw someone mentioning here before that mice have faster metabolism. It remains to be seen if their data fully apply to us. In this regard, I wonder if anyone here knows how long it takes for fasting mice to switch to ketosis and past ketoacidosis, for comparison with humans. Anyone?

Also, I would think that there must be "gradations" to autophagy. Some of it must be routine, going on daily in between meals and is part of the normal cellular metabolism. So I'd guess that blocking autophagy would shorten lifespan throughout the board, regardless of CR. It seems that autophagy on ketosis is different from its daily routine version, and here it seems prudent to distinguish ketosis on a pure protein diet from the ketosis of a long fast.

But the question is, is one 3-day fast once or twice a month better than 24/24 hour intermittent fasting? I know IF is easier for me, at least.

As I said above, 3-day fast once in a while will not get you into ketosis. It takes 3-4 days for an average person to get past ketoacidosis, when fasting on water only. That's a fact. A "dry fast" - no water no nothin - will get you there in 24-36h and then yes, if then you last another day or two, that would be sufficient to start seeing real results.

But then the question is, if you practice CR or IF, why would you need to activate "extreme" forms of autophagy? The benefit of these practices seems in prevention of accumulation of cellular junk in the first place. According to Russian hypothesis based on clinical observation, autophagy goes on according to the principle "last in first out". So I'd think that a mild version of autophagy you get as part of your routine would keep your cells in good shape for a long time.

Why would lemon be bad for autophagy?

I too was puzzled by this. It started to make seense when I saw the diagram in the last paper that shows that insulin inhibits autophagy. Seems that even a small amount of juice triggers insulin release and this puts a break on the process. In fact, sometimes Russians did apply such "breaks" to slow the process down when it was warranted. The pathology developed when a bit of lemon juice was consumed daily to flavor water.

Their speculation was that small amount of nutrients impede catabolic process while not being sufficient for adequate nutrition; that metabolism can be catabolic or anabolic, ketosis or normal, but not both at the same time. It's like trying to drive a car pressing alternatively on gas and break in quick succession or hitting both at once. Not only you won't get far, you'll break the car. In any rate, this hypothesis was based on extensive clinical observation.

[xEva]

As for lipofuscin, age spots, etc.. - first thing I'd do (to prevent and maybe "cure) is to eliminate ALL the processed/fried/grilled/unnatural food for EVER. I've already done that actually. First things first imho, then we can try to do something more complicated, but if you eat the same stuff you've ate for years (and if it's a "bad" stuff) there's no need to go any further as u've already failed.

The way I understand it, it's the overall amount of food consumed that matters, not so much its perceived quality. Throughout history humans have adapted to various diets (some yogis eat glass! lol) and I think that we can adapt to junk food too. The food that tends to deposit more junk in the cells simply warrants more frequent or thorough cleanup.

Edited by Lex, 20 August 2009 - 08:04 PM.

[Mind]

Autophagy is a constant cellular process. Fasting upregulates autophagy.

Paul Wakfer claims autophagy can be upregulated with a 20 hour fast. You can probably find some research at his website to back this up.

A raw food diet might reduce the formation of lipofuscin, but as long as you eat, your cells will end up with lipofuscin.

[SloMoSandy]

The way I understand it, it's the overall amount of food consumed that matters, not so much its perceived quality. Throughout history humans have adapted to various diets (some yogis eat glass! lol) and I think that we can adapt to junk food too. The food that tends to deposit more junk in the cells simply warrants more frequent or thorough cleanup.

Don't forget that every tiny bit of junk that's left uncleaned - adds up through the years pretty fast. It's like u have a cup of tea, drink it, put under a runnig water for a few secs and prepare a fresh tea. After like 2-3 cups there's will be left brown tint on the sides of a cup, that'd add up with each time u'd drink it, unless you'd do a throughout cleaning of it with a scrub.
Can some manner of fasting be that "scrub"? And most importantly - u should avoid ANY, even the smallest junk that has a potential to accumulate (like AGE). I personally don't understand how a person can eat something called "Junk food", or food that's knowingly "unhealthy" for him and want to extend his life at the same time.

Edited by VidX, 20 August 2009 - 10:38 PM.

[niner]

ketosis is required for effective autophagy to take place.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this is the case?

[xEva]

Autophagy is a constant cellular process. Fasting upregulates autophagy.

Thank you, that's what I thought. Always good to hear confirmation from the expert.

Paul Wakfer claims autophagy can be upregulated with a 20 hour fast. You can probably find some research at his website to back this up.

That homemade site is difficult to navigate and I could not find any such human data. But I have no doubt that autophagy can be upregulated with 20h fast. It must go on even during shorter fasts between meals and at night. The question is, to what extent.

A raw food diet might reduce the formation of lipofuscin, but as long as you eat, your cells will end up with lipofuscin.

Well then, there you have it. Looks like fasting - and I mean the real thing - is the most effective anitaging therapy. So then my question for ImmInst remains, why don't you? Stranger still, why do you discourage others?

[xEva]

ketosis is required for effective autophagy to take place.

Is there any evidence whatsoever that this is the case?

I thought it was basic knowledge for ppl interested in the subject. I believe it is covered in introductory biology courses. You should read on starvation and ketosis.

Below is the gist of it (don't quote me ):

When glucose levels drop, metabolism switches to ketosis. For a person who never fasted longer than 2 days (that's how long glycogen stores lasts), this transitional period is rather difficult and takes another day or two after all glycogen is depleted. During this day-two, blood pH falls, keton bodies are produced abundantly but not yet efficiently utilized, resulting in a mild form of ketoacidosis (and giving you headache, tiredness, malaise and very grumpy disposition ). You can't sleep, because your brain is agitated and very, very hungry. When you close your eyes, you see vivid, bright, steamy colorful and very flavorful dishes Finally you manage to fall asleep. This was your most difficult night, and it normally happens on the 3rd-4th day after you stop eating.

When you wake up next morning, you feel much better. Finally, true ketosis ensues, blood pH returns to normal and you feel good, your head clears, you have good energy and you no longer feel hungry. From this moment on, active autophagy takes place to supply the needs of glycogenesis. The housecleaning has begun. The longer you last in this state, the more thorough it will be.

Edited by Lex, 21 August 2009 - 07:35 PM.

[rwac]

Below is the gist of it (don't quote me ):

When glucose levels drop, metabolism switches to ketosis. For a person who never fasted longer than 2 days (that's how long glycogen stores lasts), this transitional period is rather difficult and takes another day or two after all glycogen is depleted. During this day-two, blood pH falls, keton bodies are produced abundantly but not yet efficiently utilized, resulting in a mild form of ketoacidosis (and giving you headache, tiredness, malaise and very grumpy disposition ). You can't sleep, because your brain is agitated and very, very hungry. When you close your eyes, you see vivid, bright, steamy colorful and very flavorful dishes Finally you manage to fall asleep. This was your most difficult night, and it normally happens on the 3rd-4th day after you stop eating.

When you wake up next morning, you feel much better. Finally, true ketosis ensues, blood pH returns to normal and you feel good, your head clears, you have good energy and you no longer feel hungry. From this moment on, active autophagy takes place to supply the needs of glycogenesis. The housecleaning has begun. The longer you last in this state, the more thorough it will be.

This sounds very much like atkins phase one, but involving fasting rather than limiting carbs.

The term Ketosis is also used in atkins, the same thing is triggered by a low-carb diet.

Atkins probably doesn't promote much autophagy, but I bet it would ease fasting.

[xEva]

Yes, I also read about it on a BB site and according to them it takes 8-10 days to switch to ketosis on a high protein diet, which means that they suffer through the transition even longer.

This brings an interesting question and I hope that knowledgeable people here can help me out: how to induce ketosis in the most efficient and painless way possible?

The fastest way I found so far is a dry fast - presumably because the body begins to break lipids sooner, not for energy but to get water (don't recall if it's one or 2 molecules of H2O released in the process in addition to CO2). Then the transition to ketosis seems to proceed smoother, without obvious symptoms of ketoacidosis, and takes 24+ hours only (because of this, many people on a Russian fasting site jump start a long water fast with a few dry days).

I don't think that trying to induce autophagy via a "magic pill" while keeping metabolism normal is a realistic proposition. The body's clockwork is too complex to presume that tweaking a wheal or two will force a part of it into the right direction while keeping the rest intact. A more realistic way would be to help the body switch to ketosis in the most painless way possible. Because once you're there, it's pretty easy and actually enjoyable. The transition is the hard part.

[rwac]

It took me about 2 weeks, but I'd say it's easier since you don't have to be hungry, but you can eat as much as you want, just not carbs.

Also, if you keep your body in ketosis via atkins (low carb, high fat generally) fasting becomes easier overall.
You won't need to go through ketacidosis if you're already in ketosis when you start the fast.

[xEva]

That's very interesting. Please tell me, how long you are on atkins and how long are your fasts, how frequent and how they go? Sorry for so many questions, but this topic really interests me.


If only I could do some serious fasting without suffering through the transitions back and forth... Ah dreams...

Do you think a lacto-ovo vegetarian can do atkins? I love cheese and icecream

[Sillewater]

In the past 4 months I have done four or five 3 day fasts, with limited water intake (maybe one glass per day). The first night is the hardest to get through because I find its hard to sleep (the ketosis is just providing me with too much energy), but after that I could probably go on without eating for many more days but I always end the fast because I don't want to take it too far. I enter the fast not eating the night before at around 8pm and then exercising in the morning when I get up then stop eating. I transition into ketosis fairly easily since my diet is high fat and low-carb.

For the second and third day, I feel great and continue to exercise and hardly get muscle soreness unlike the days when I don't fast, but one thing I dislike about it is the stress. I don't know why but I get a very similar feeling to when I get stressed on these long fasts and it may be the ketosis causing a rise in cortisol levels (I saw a paper mentioning this somewhere).

Because of the stress feeling I only perform these long fasts on days I have lots and lots of time (which was during my summer vacation). But now that I have jobs and other commitments I find it hard-pressed to do them.

[okok]

Interesting read: the protein cycling diet. http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=28167

[HealthologisT]

I mix it up for 3-4 days at a time: Dry Fast, Water Fast, Fruit Juicing Fast and Vegetable Juicing Fast (also drink OIL on the fruit/vegs days). I do this about every 40-60 days. 24 hours a piece, of course, on each. I rest a lot on the Dry days. Lots of DEEP BREATHING tho. In fact, throughout. Moderate exercise like walking, stretching/calesthenics on the fruits and vegetables days.

Depending on your health at the time of these fasts, you can get extreme DIE-OFF (or not that much....gets better the cleaner your internal environment becomes....which by the way, is affected by whether you burn more GLUCOSE or FAT as fuel).

[Brainbox]

Do you think a lacto-ovo vegetarian can do atkins? I love cheese and icecream

Icecream = lots of sugar (and/or fructose when you're a bit more lucky), at least where I come from.

But more seriously, I would be very interested in the full text of the Russian papers since I'm also trying to read-up in this matter.

[SloMoSandy]

two after all glycogen is depleted. During this day-two, blood pH falls, keton bodies are produced abundantly but not yet efficiently utilized, resulting in a mild form of ketoacidosis (and giving you headache

Interesting. I'm kinda sure that not much of a glycogen is left after my usual workout in the gym as I drag my legs out of it usually, maybe I could find some way to fasten the effective fast ..
It's "known" (from what I remember) that shortage of axygen induces autophagy. So the logical conclusion would be - cardio.? Or some other physical activity, if not for oxygen shortage, then for forcing the body to find energy somewhere. If you are not in high BF scale, then cut water supply, after a workout to diminish glycogen + some jogging and some of these supps that enhanche autophagy (can't name at the momentm, but know there are some. Emm..Curcumin?). Maybe we could take a "usual fast" to another level? I'm sure there's some way to optimize this process without torturing yourself for prolonged periods of starvation.

It's a good discussion BTW.

Edited by VidX, 22 August 2009 - 11:01 AM.

[Brainbox]

It all depends on the goal you have with exercise I guess. By starvation (or insufficient nutrition in general), hypertrophy and / or neovascularization will not take place or only take place (very) sub-optimal, which would negate the "normal" benefits of the exercise. Furthermore, by overdoing it, it might even be detrimental to health, but that's just an (educated?) guess.

Edited by Brainbox, 22 August 2009 - 11:35 AM.
typo

[SloMoSandy]

Exercising to induce overall energy demand, thus forcing cells to find a way to get that energy, thus forcing them to recycle themselves (even if it's just a tiny bit of a puzzle, needed to effectively induce that process at full throttle). That's how I see it.

[rwac]

That's very interesting. Please tell me, how long you are on atkins and how long are your fasts, how frequent and how they go? Sorry for so many questions, but this topic really interests me.


If only I could do some serious fasting without suffering through the transitions back and forth... Ah dreams...

Do you think a lacto-ovo vegetarian can do atkins? I love cheese and icecream

I've been on atkins for the last 6 months or so.
I fast for about 20-24 hrs at a time, maybe every other week or so.
I also do protein cycling more often.

I just have an early breakfast and skip lunch and dinner, have a late breakfast the next day.
No problems sleeping, either.
I don't see the need to do 3 day fasts quite yet, for me personally.

It's going to be hard for a lacto-ovo vegetarian, for sure. Lots of Eggs, cheese, whey, cream, butter etc.

[xEva]

Thank you for all you feedback. Just as I thought, it was very rewarding to bounce ideas off your brilliant heads Armed with new insights, I did a little experiment this past weekend.

The plan was to induce ketosis. So, I ate light on Fri, no carbs and drank few tablespoons of flax seed oil. Late Sat morning I went to banya (Russian traditional cross between sauna and steam room). This dehydrated me thoroughly while cleansing skin and lymph - the usual. I sat there for about 2 hours and, as tradition dictates, jumped into cold water every 40 mins - great stuff. I estimate, I loose about a gallon of sweat in a session.

Following this, I did drink a bit of CO2 mineral water. I was physically active - more than usual, but no strenuous workouts. Did not eat but drank 3 spoons of flax seed oil throughout the day. Sun was physically active, again more than usual. Ate a bit of wild berries, a relative of blueberries, but obviously with low fructose (some other stuff in there, don't know what, does not rise insulin).

At 10pm Sun I suddenly felt weak and had to cut the day short. Woke up 5am, worked for 1-2 hours, had to lie down again. Felt nauseous, with obvious signs of toxicosis, which I recognized as the first sign of real housecleaning already going on.

To me this usually happens on the 5th morning of a traditional water fast. I did not experience acidosis this time. In fact, felt very good these past days - and suddenly BAM I am in full blown fast. The way I see it, the toxicosis (does not happen to "clean bodies" lol) confirmed that the housecleaning was going on full force - already less than 36h after the banya, that started the fast.

The toxicosis scared me. Once I had it during a fast following many years of no fasting. The crisis was super bad, the sickest I felt in my whole life, but I suffered only 4-5 hours, following which I slept for 2 full days, with only short interruptions to drink some water, pee and go back to sleep. When I finally woke up and went out, people were shocked by my transformation. Those who met me a few months ago would stare into my face and ask with a puzzled look, say how old you said you were? I never did. They assumed I was a certain age, but now that assumption did not fit.

You can tell I am vain lol and want not so much life extension as youth extension. Yes, I want the results but going through that super-detox scares me. I remember then I thought I was going to die but I lived alone and was too weak to pick up the phone. For a long time that horrendous morning following the detox, I could not sleep, could not think, everything hurt and even the slightest movement was impossible. I just lay there praying that I could fall asleep so I would not be conscious.

So this time I thought I'd "apply breaks" on the process and I had half a green sour apple and then drank some grapefruit juice, and the latter was a mistake, because it halted the process entirely

Now I am reading on vegetarian ketogenic diets - thank you, yes, there is such thing! There is even Atkins for vegans - google is the greatest thing. I will follow the ketogenic diet and try again.


Now that I know how to induce ketosis, it'd be good to know how to remove toxins in a less painful manner. Your suggestions and insight are greatly appreciated.

[xEva]

I would be very interested in the full text of the Russian papers since I'm also trying to read-up in this matter.

Here is an "executive summary" of the method developed by Yuri Nikolayev, M.D. It's in Russian http://www.neizlechimih.net/med.html
I could swear I saw the English translation sometime last year, but after googling for an hour, I can't find it. I'll try to find it, and if not, maybe I'll translate it.

Here is the Russian text of his popular book "fasting for health" http://www.poprirode...di_zdorovia.doc

Nikolayev was a psychiatrist and initially applied therapeutic fasting to treat schizophrenia. In the process they noticed that it improved or cured other chronic conditions. His son is active on the Russian fasting forum http://www.golodanie.su/forum/. His nik is anyk99 and his speak good English. Maybe he has links to English translations of his father's works.

[xEva]

Sillewater, your experience is very interesting, just like rwac and HealthologisT, both on ketogenic diet. When you fast you start right away without having an additional stress of transition to ketosis. That's what I understood this weekend, thank to yall I also saw somewhere that rise in cortisol is a normal response during a fast. It's not necessarily a bad thing - I guess it depends..


VidX, I also saw that BBs use exercise to deplete glycogen sooner to induce ketosis.

I'm sure there's some way to optimize this process without torturing yourself for prolonged periods of starvation.

Yes! That would be great. While we wait for the magic pill that would let us have our cake and eat it too, we could improve on the Russian method and make it quicker and less painful.

There are a number of hurdles to overcome. Like how to break a long fast. That's an art too, lots to know, very dangerous if not done right. According to Russians, what they did to David Blaine was all wrong. Nikolayev starts with 50/50 water tomato juice, then plain tomato juice, then half an apple, etc. According to his method the recovery phase must last as long as the fast itself before resuming normal diet. But now with people sharing their experiences on the net, the whole field is developing fast - even though it's not "scientific". The latest trend is these dry fasts. Nikolayev was very adamant against dry fasts - I guess because his method had to work for most people with less than average health without killing them in the process.


HealthologisT, yes deep breathing is the key during the fast - toxins are cleared via lungs. Russian method requires lotsa moderate exercise. If not, people get weak and suffer. It seems contra-intuitive to go for a walk when you feel so week that you can hardly move and your head hurts. But if you try (provided that the weather is cool, or you'll faint in the heat) it's amazing how quickly you start to feel good and return home in good mood, clear head and full of energy. They say that lactic acid produced during exercise is turned to glucose, and the brain does appreciate it.

I think what you mean by DIE-OFF is what I mean by toxicosis. That sucks big time. It's a next hurdle to overcome for me now.

Edited by Lex, 25 August 2009 - 07:21 AM.