26 replies to this topic

[mongfu]

Seems to be getting more difficult. I am experienced (over 24 years of lifting), degreed (BS Kinesiology), but just cant figure it out. I am not one to accept "oh just getting older".
I am stuck at around 160lbs(relativley lean ~12-14% BF) and dont want to eat crap/un-healthy to gain more mass. Already eating approx 1.5-2g protein /pound bodyweight. Cant bring my self to eat High carb (good/un-refined carbs) Is that the only way? Getting just enough sleep and I know how to train.

Any suggestions?

[Shepard]

Can you be more specific on everything?

Training outline, diet outline, training nutrition, etc.

[mongfu]

Can you be more specific on everything?

Training outline, diet outline, training nutrition, etc.

routine is changed every 6 weeks or so.
Heavy= heavier weight and volume
Light= lighter weight and volume

Right now doing 4 days of weight training:
mon Tue Wed Th Fri Sat/Sun
H-chest H-arms Off/or H-back H-Legs off/cardio/abs
L-back L-Legs sprints/abs L-Chest L-arms
L-delts L-delts

General diet: High protein, Low carb (only good), Low/medium fat (only good)
As Organic as possible.

Whey Protein shakes or mixed with water 2-3 x day
Post workout shake ~50g protein, 1/2 cup milk, 1/2 banana, teaspoon agave,

Never really tried prohormones, been a while since I did Creatine.

[VidX]

If u really have been lifting for 24years u should know that at your age low test MAY be a cause of a plateau. I'd take some blood tests to find that out. Of your hormones are down - there's no way to gain acceptable amount of muscle.

[mongfu]

If u really have been lifting for 24years u should know that at your age low test MAY be a cause of a plateau. I'd take some blood tests to find that out. Of your hormones are down - there's no way to gain acceptable amount of muscle.

Recently had total Testosterone done and it was in the upper 2/3 range of "normal"

Did not test Free testosterone though. Of course I knew this to be an possibility, I can feel that i dont have as much Test then when I was 20! What are ya gonna do?

[niner]

What are ya gonna do?

Supplement it. Upper 2/3 is a pretty broad range though. You might want to get a better bead on it.

[mongfu]

What are ya gonna do?

Supplement it. Upper 2/3 is a pretty broad range though. You might want to get a better bead on it.

With What?

[niner]

What are ya gonna do?

Supplement it. Upper 2/3 is a pretty broad range though. You might want to get a better bead on it.

With What?

testosterone. From a gel or a patch, for example.

Edited by niner, 02 September 2009 - 04:21 PM.

[Mind]

Gettin' old. Male testosterone rapidly declines after the mid 30s. If you don't mind some of the risk that comes with supplemental testosterone, then that would probably help. I am 38, and I can't gain as easy as before or as much as before, however, I do eat more carbs, even high GI carbs, when I am gaining and - subjectively (and possibly objectively) - this helps me.

[Shepard]

Can you be even more specific? Absolute numbers as far as diet, training weights/sets/reps/etc.

[mongfu]

Can you be even more specific? Absolute numbers as far as diet, training weights/sets/reps/etc.

Shame on me, I have not counted daily caloric intake (and protein,fat,carbs) in a while, so I cant give you that info (use to use fitday).

Training: For example in the outline I posted above, Day 1 looked like this this .(just started this program, the 6 weeks prior I was doing 3 x week full body) ......

Elip warm up 5 minutes
Armcircles and pushups for warm up

DB Bench 40 x 20
60 x 15
60 x 15
60 x 12
60 x 10
80 x 4 then immediately 40 x 10
1-1.5 min rests between sets (I work up to 100's for multiple sets of 5-6 reps and I dont drop the weights)

Free motion cable flys 40 x 10 4 sets
4 sets of push ups ~12-15 reps on small medicine ball (1 hand on ball 1 hand on floor then switching each rep)

4 sets of light (no rest from side to side) DB rows 40lbs x 12 (heavier back day later in week)

3-4 sets of Db Lateral/front raises

Just finally rehabed a nagging Rotator cuff impingement from practicing MMA.

For reference: my PR in Deadlift on the 5th set of working up to it was 405 at 163 lbs--no straps

Favorite lifts are Squats, deads, pull-ups (strict-sometimes weighted-not crossfit style)

[drus]

i suggest a creatine supplement, specifically 'cell-tech hardcore' by muscle tech, it's a great supplement for putting on muscle. i also suggest increasing your weight and dropping your reps to 4-8. kick the weight out faster, and slower on the negatives. work in the 5-6 set zone, and go for broke at least once a week. diet is huge too, but you obviously realize that, EAT TO GROW. what are your cardio sessions like? try wind sprints instead of sustained cardio sessions. i'd say focus extra attention on back, legs, and core as well for a while.

[mongfu]

i suggest a creatine supplement, specifically 'cell-tech hardcore' by muscle tech, it's a great supplement for putting on muscle. i also suggest increasing your weight and dropping your reps to 4-8. kick the weight out faster, and slower on the negatives. work in the 5-6 set zone, and go for broke at least once a week. diet is huge too, but you obviously realize that, EAT TO GROW. what are your cardio sessions like? try wind sprints instead of sustained cardio sessions. i'd say focus extra attention on back, legs, and core as well for a while.

Thanks, I will try Creatine again.

"cardio" is either 30 min on eliptical or walk/sprint on treadmill or intervals on bike.

What is everyone's opinion on which Healthy Carb is the best? Brown rice, oat, sweet potatoes I heard some talk of quinoa etc

[Shepard]

I agree that you might want to start tracking your diet a little closer. I'd also like to see more carbs around training, more milk and yams or a sweet potato would be my choice.

Testosterone supplementation might be worth a shot, but I doubt it's the panacea some hope for. I have a feeling it might be more of an indirect aid, which is still quite useful. That said, I have no experience with testosterone supplementation for older trainees.

It all boils down to the same two concepts that teenagers also follow: make sure the weight on both the bar and scale are going up consistently. You just might want to make sure your scale weight is going up slower to limit fat gain.

Have there been any favorable changes coming from full body 3x/week to the above program?

Edited by Shepard, 02 September 2009 - 09:12 PM.

[nootrope]

I'm about your age (41), weight (mid 160s), and bodyfat percentage (14-15%). I think I've been making progress in the past couple of years, even though I weigh about the same. One supplement I think has helped my weightlifting is cordyceps. I've never experimented with actual testosterone, etc., but I seem to respond well to adaptogens. Eleuthero, etc. Even though you have a degree in the area, perhaps it could help to find a personal trainer to look over what you're doing. Turns out I'd been neglecting back/shoulder/biceps compared with chest/triceps.

[mongfu]

I agree that you might want to start tracking your diet a little closer. I'd also like to see more carbs around training, more milk and yams or a sweet potato would be my choice.

Testosterone supplementation might be worth a shot, but I doubt it's the panacea some hope for. I have a feeling it might be more of an indirect aid, which is still quite useful. That said, I have no experience with testosterone supplementation for older trainees.

It all boils down to the same two concepts that teenagers also follow: make sure the weight on both the bar and scale are going up consistently. You just might want to make sure your scale weight is going up slower to limit fat gain.

Have there been any favorable changes coming from full body 3x/week to the above program?

Although, I enjoy the program I just finished, I actually get more recovery doing the current program which ends up working each muscle group 2 x week at different loads and volumes. There is so much conflicting research on recovery time, I think it comes down to a biological individuality thing.

I will up my weights, lower the reps, start some creatine, eat some more carbs (Shepard--did you mean eat them close to the training session within the day? Not at other times? Carbs at night=fat gain or carbs/meal at night prevent low blood sugar/catabolism/ or neither?

Thanks everyone!!!

[DREXX]

The others have covered pretty much everything. Here are my 2 cents:
1. Might want to look at hormone replacement therapy

2. Look into theories of Protein Cycling, your body might be used to your high protein intake so you might need to start fighting this by cycling protein high and low



3. Look for the Anabolic Burst Cycling Diet Exercise (ABCDE) diet where you basically bulk up for 14 days and then go back to a CR diet 14 days. This is an effective way for natural bodybuilders to gain muscle without fat by utilising your body's hormones

4. As the others said train heavier to recruit more muscle fibers (6-10 reps)

5. Sleep more

As far as good carbs I get mine mostly from fruits, veggies and oats. Beyond that sweet potatoes, brown rice and whole grains aren't that bad but I don't consume lots of them.

If you want to gain weight without carbs I suggest increasing your fat since your protein is already high. Try adding EV olive oil to every meal and carbs before and after training.

39 isn't the end of the world. Lots of bodybuilders keep competing well into their 50's and 60's in the masters competitions.

[Shepard]

(Shepard--did you mean eat them close to the training session within the day? Not at other times? Carbs at night=fat gain or carbs/meal at night prevent low blood sugar/catabolism/ or neither?

To begin with, I'd just toss the extra carbs in around training and see what happens.

[VidX]

With What?

24years in lifting and you are asking this? :D lol, no offence man, but aren't most of the guys around you shooting test every other day? 

Low test is not an excuse these days. Most of the guys, if healthy - can supplement sane doses of test and prolong their youth in that area for a few more decades. I suggest you to take a look at some of the bodybuilding websites. 40 in bb'ing terms is pretty young. Many guys just start at that age and reach impressive results with enough determination and proper supplementation (in every sense).

Robby Robinson, 63. Of course, he's a pro, doing this for over 40years or so, but still inspiring:

Edited by VidX, 05 September 2009 - 02:23 PM.

[mongfu]

With What?

24years in lifting and you are asking this? :D lol, no offence man, but aren't most of the guys around you shooting test every other day?

Low test is not an excuse these days. Most of the guys, if healthy - can supplement sane doses of test and prolong their youth in that area for a few more decades. I suggest you to take a look at some of the bodybuilding websites. 40 in bb'ing terms is pretty young. Many guys just start at that age and reach impressive results with enough determination and proper supplementation (in every sense).

Robby Robinson, 63. Of course, he's a pro, doing this for over 40years or so, but still inspiring:

Of course I thought of that. But trying to do that in the safest/healthiest/cost effective and most legal way is what i would be interested in, and I have no clue how to do that.
But Thanks! I worked out next to Robinson once in Golds Venice--A great inspiration!

[shaggy]

Already eating approx 1.5-2g protein /pound bodyweight.

Up to 320 grams of protein a day? That's too much imho, I've never seen any research that proves high dosages of protien make any difference for the average trainer (no gear). I also believe 30 grams per meal/shake etc is optimal. Will try and dig out the papers on this point.

[VidX]

The thing is - body kinda upregulates when you increase that uptake of protein. I feel it can actually create more muscle tissue as a way to "store" excess protein, when you constantly overload with it.
Though I'd agree that you don't need more then 30g/a meal if you aren't the most intensive athlete.

[cutecub]

A proper guidance is very important in order to gain weight and muscle.And Protein is the primary element of a bodybuilding diet. Add in a sufficient amount of carbohydrates and some fats to the meals.Better to eat lots of protein rich foods so that 40% of your daily calorie intake is proteins.Get abs fast

Edited by cutecub, 13 January 2010 - 05:39 AM.

[platypus]

How about doing just 2 sets until failure (with heavy weights) for each of your exercises?

Edited by platypus, 13 January 2010 - 02:49 PM.

[DukeNukem]

I wrote this for another forum, but might be helpful here:

~~~~~~~~~

The closer you are to your maximum potential of muscle mass, the more intense you must train to increase mass, and the more rest you need between training.

Noobs can always train less intensely, and more often, and still see progress, because they are starting a long way from their max potential. Hardgainers are merely people who probably enjoyed early success, but as they reach their max potential, they train harder AND more often, trying to break through whatever roadblock they think they've hit -- when in fact they should train less often.

Overtraining is real, but it's not much of a factor for people in their first 6 months to a year. As you develop muscle mass, it becomes more and more of an issue.

The most effective strength training is based on INTENSITY, LARGE-MUSCLE FOCUS, VARIATION, and REST. A good workout should last at most 45 minutes, and more optimally 30 mins, and include large-muscle group supersets. This fast pace ensures a great cardio workout, and better supports a full body (systemic) benefit, even for uninvolved muscles.

[platypus]

I wrote this for another forum, but might be helpful here:

~~~~~~~~~

The closer you are to your maximum potential of muscle mass, the more intense you must train to increase mass, and the more rest you need between training.

It's worth noting that training intensity is not the same thing as training volume. I'm in the same age-bracket and I've managed to get decent gains by training quite infrequently with the two sets to failure method (compound movements) and supplementing with some whey protein. YMMV.

[mikeinnaples]

How about doing just 2 sets until failure (with heavy weights) for each of your exercises?

At 35 I have gotten better results lifting 'backwards' from what I usually see in the gym. Most guys start low weight and keep adding. I start high weight and keep working to failure, dropping weight as I go. I've been lifting for 20 years, but my days of wanting mass and size are done, I prefer more active muscle strength and endurance. Personally I beleive my current mind set on things works a lot better for me and I feel stronger and healthier than I did when I was 12 years younger and bulked up... At the height of witch I was maxing out bench at 385. The way I lift now reveals itself as being better for the activities I like to do: surfing, kiteboarding, paintball, races (5k/10k/halfs).

So lets say I am doing chest and tri's on:

Weight/Reps/Sets

Bench Press:

245/to failure/3

225/to failure/3

205/to failure/3

Incline DB Press:

75db(150 total) / to failure / 3

65db(130 total) / to failure / 3

Military DB PRess:

55db(110 total) / to failure / 3

45db(90 total) / to failure / 3

Decline DB Press

75db(150 total) / to failure / 3

65db(130 total) / to failure / 3

Dips

Body weight / to failure / 3

Pushups

Body Weight / to failure / 3


For cardio I also do half marathons and on a normal week (i.e. not gearing up for a half) I will average between 25k-30k a week... and alot can also be said for the sheer amount of cardio involved in surfing (at least east coast surfing where we have to fight through waves to get out in the line up rather than paddling around the break)