84 replies to this topic

[2tender]

don't rely on protein shakes to build any mass, it simply won't happen...

Why do you say that?

Protein shakes can upset your metabolism and strain kidneys. The best supplement to use instead is Creatine,whey, and glutamine its expensive but it works (LEF has it)

whey and glutamine are protein. that's the only thing "protein shake" means as far as I have ever heard- it's just whey

True, but protein drinks are most often loaded with un-balanced and excessive amounts of amino acids, these are not good for kidneys. The combination product I mentioned is mild and effective.

[Mike M]

don't rely on protein shakes to build any mass, it simply won't happen...

Why do you say that?

Protein shakes can upset your metabolism and strain kidneys. The best supplement to use instead is Creatine,whey, and glutamine its expensive but it works (LEF has it)

If protein shakes caused any sort of kidney issue there would be 10's of thousands of people with kidney disease. Active athletes have taken 1g/lb for decades. Please show any research in health huamans that shows your kidney's being strained from taking protein. Upset your metabolism? What are you talking about?

[hormoneman]

Investigate peptides like CJC-1295 with DAC


http://jcem.endojour...full/91/12/4792


Pulsatile Secretion of Growth Hormone (GH) Persists during Continuous Stimulation by CJC-1295, a Long-Acting GH-Releasing Hormone Analog

Context: Pulsatile GH secretion is considered important for many of the hormone’s physiological effects. Short-term GHRH infusions enhance GH pulsatility and increase IGF-I, but the short GHRH half-life limits its therapeutic use. A synthetic GHRH analog (CJC-1295) that binds permanently to endogenous albumin after injection (half-life = 8 d) stimulates GH and IGF-I secretion in several animal species and in normal human subjects and enhances growth in rats.

Objective: Our objective was to assess GH pulsatility after a single injection of CJC-1295 and determine which GH secretion parameters correlated to the increase in IGF-I production.

Methods: GH pulsatility was assessed by 20-min blood sampling during an overnight 12-h period in healthy 20- to 40-yr-old men before and 1 wk after injection of either 60 or 90 µg/kg CJC-1295.

Results: GH secretion was increased after CJC-1295 administration with preserved pulsatility. The frequency and magnitude of GH secretory pulses were unaltered. However, basal (trough) GH levels were markedly increased (7.5-fold; P < 0.0001) and contributed to an overall increase in GH secretion (mean GH levels, 46%; P < 0.01) and IGF-I levels (45%; P < 0.001). No significant differences were observed between the responses to the two drug doses. The IGF-I increases did not correlate with any parameters of GH secretion.

Conclusions: CJC-1295 increased trough and mean GH secretion and IGF-I production with preserved GH pulsatility. The marked enhancement of trough GH levels by continuous GHRH stimulation implicates the importance of this effect on increasing IGF-I. Long-acting GHRH preparations may have clinical utility in patients with intact pituitary GH secretory capability.

You might also investigate GHRP-6 as well

http://www.professio...sic-guides.html A very long file but worth the read

[immortali457]

don't rely on protein shakes to build any mass, it simply won't happen...

Why do you say that?

Protein shakes can upset your metabolism and strain kidneys. The best supplement to use instead is Creatine,whey, and glutamine its expensive but it works (LEF has it)

whey and glutamine are protein. that's the only thing "protein shake" means as far as I have ever heard- it's just whey

True, but protein drinks are most often loaded with un-balanced and excessive amounts of amino acids, these are not good for kidneys. The combination product I mentioned is mild and effective.

Not good for the kidneys...bull...been drinking them for over 30 years. Kidneys are fine.

[ensun]

As others are saying, eat lots of protein. Protein is the #1 supplement for muscle mass.

Not targeting you OP, but I still don't understand why some people think they can eat a measly 40g of protein per day and get any decent gains. I've met quite a few though who spend a lot of time in the gym only to take a scoop of protein powder and eat a regular diet. That's a waste.

Get 1-1.5g protein per lb of body weight. This has been studied extensively and is still recommended to athletes/bodybuilders. Eat a lot of clean calories.

Avoid casein if you can. Excessive methionine intake and an anti-CR, possibly pro-aging diet are also potential downfalls, but you have to weigh the pros and cons for yourself.

Edited by ensun, 07 October 2009 - 10:49 PM.

[ensun]

enough protein (1g up to 1.5g during dieting per lbs body weight) & some creatine monoh. is about all you need. there is plenty of BCAA in whey, not that you'll find any evidence for them unless you're in traction. fish oil 2-3g epa/dha probably helps w/ partitioning too.

periodized routine 2-3 times a week per muscle and adding weight to the bar. eat a big meal right after the workout. you can't gain muscle if you don't get a little pudgy at least some of the time.

hey what do you guys think about muscle milk. they sell it at costco, a 3 lb container, that has a per serving size of 26 grams of protein. cost is 36 bones. let me know about your experiences with this product. seems to be very popular now in the los angeles area....

Muscle milk is OK (except for its casein content), but this is one of the reasons why people aren't getting enough protein. They think that they can buy a really expensive protein supplement, take a scoop or two, and then they're good. You won't see any big gains on muscle milk unless you're taking a lot (read: 5-10 servings per day).

The only benefit of casein is that it is a slow digesting protein. There is too much controversy otherwise to recommend it.

Here's what I recommend and part of what I actually used for massive gains.

50-75g total whey protein intake around workout time (before, during and after workout). 200-400 calories post workout with a small amount of carbs having a high glycemic index. 200-400 calories 1 to 2 hours later. The bulk of my other protein came from egg white protein spread out throughout the day. The rest came from diet. Be careful with egg white protein. You'll want to take a biotin supplement when you don't have egg white protein in your system, otherwise you may develop a biotin deficiency. The bulk of my carbs came from oatmeal. Healthy fats are also very important.

Creatine is the #2 supplement.

Fish oil and quality vitamins are #3.

This should work for 50 lbs. of muscle mass or so.

You don't need to look at others until you're a long way out.

Edited by ensun, 07 October 2009 - 10:51 PM.

[RighteousReason]

Why no casein? I think of casein as an important supplement for building muscle. You should really get plenty of it before bed, my way is just having a lot of milk. The reason is that it digests slowly so your muscles get protein all night long.

The only thing bad I have heard is that if you already have cancer, you should not have any casein as cancer feeds on it

Edited by RighteousReason, 07 October 2009 - 11:31 PM.

[ensun]

Why no casein? I think of casein as an important supplement for building muscle. You should really get plenty of it before bed, my way is just having a lot of milk. The reason is that it digests slowly so your muscles get protein all night long.

The only thing bad I have heard is that if you already have cancer, you should not have any casein as cancer feeds on it

You're right. Casein IS better than egg in terms of the amount of time digesting (slow release). Egg digests in about 4 hours, casein about 7 hours. You can increase the amount of time egg digests by mixing it with fats.

Casein protein would be optimal at night since you get a few extra hours. The only issues with casein are unresolved potential health issues, especially in large amounts, which is why I'm not recommending it. But if muscle building is your #1 goal, casein certainly would work better than egg at night.

Edited by ensun, 07 October 2009 - 11:44 PM.

[navyblue]

Creatine, Amino Acids and your bodyweight * .5oz of water daily. Worked for me. Oh, and of course, don't forget to lift weights. 5 - 10 reps is good. Glutamine will help as well.

The protein ordeal is just too much. Just eat and you'll be fine. Your body wants food not protein shakes. I've seen people (including myself) suck down protein and not get anywhere with their mass or strength for that matter.

Edited by navyblue, 07 October 2009 - 11:56 PM.

[ensun]

Amino acids and protein are one in the same.

[navyblue]

A lot of people do not properly break protein down into aminos. Amino acids are a step closer in the process.

[RighteousReason]

Short-duration beta-alanine supplementation increases training volume and reduces subjective feelings of fatigue in college football players.

Hoffman JR, Ratamess NA, Faigenbaum AD, Ross R, Kang J, Stout JR, Wise JA.
Department of Health and Exercise Science, The College of New Jersey, PO Box 7718, Ewing, NJ 08628, USA. hoffmanj@tcnj.edu
The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of 30 days of beta-alanine supplementation in collegiate football players on anaerobic performance measures. Subjects were randomly divided into a supplement (beta-alanine group [BA], 4.5 g x d(-1) of beta-alanine) or placebo (placebo group [P], 4.5 g x d(-1) of maltodextrin) group. Supplementation began 3 weeks before preseason football training camp and continued for an additional 9 days during camp. Performance measures included a 60-second Wingate anaerobic power test and 3 line drills (200-yd shuttle runs with a 2-minute rest between sprints) assessed on day 1 of training camp. Training logs recorded resistance training volumes, and subjects completed questionnaires on subjective feelings of soreness, fatigue, and practice intensity. No difference was seen in fatigue rate in the line drill, but a trend (P = .07) was observed for a lower fatigue rate for BA compared with P during the Wingate anaerobic power test. A significantly higher training volume was seen for BA in the bench press exercise, and a trend (P = .09) for a greater training volume was seen for all resistance exercise sessions. In addition, subjective feelings of fatigue were significantly lower for BA than P. In conclusion, despite a trend toward lower fatigue rates during 60 seconds of maximal exercise, 3 weeks of beta-alanine supplementation did not result in significant improvements in fatigue rates during high-intensity anaerobic exercise. However, higher training volumes and lower subjective feelings of fatigue in BA indicated that as duration of supplementation continued, the efficacy of beta-alanine supplementation in highly trained athletes became apparent.
PMID: 19083385 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Beta-alanine and the hormonal response to exercise.

Hoffman J, Ratamess NA, Ross R, Kang J, Magrelli J, Neese K, Faigenbaum AD, Wise JA.
Health and Exercise Science, The College of New Jersey, Ewing, New Jersey 08628, United States. hoffmanj@TCNJ.edu
The effect of 30 days of beta-alanine supplementation (4.8 g per day) on resistance exercise performance and endocrine changes was examined in eight experienced resistance-trained men. An acute resistance exercise protocol consisting of 6 sets of 12 repetitions of the squat exercise at 70 % of one-repetition maximum (1-RM) with 1.5 minutes of rest between sets was performed before and after each supplemental period. Blood draws occurred at baseline (BL), immediate (IP), 15-minutes (15P) and 30-minutes (30P) postexercise for growth hormone, testosterone and cortisol concentrations. A 22 % (p < 0.05) difference in total number of repetitions performed at the end of 4 weeks of supplementation was seen between beta-alanine (BA) and placebo (PL), and Delta mean power was greater in BA (98.4 +/- 43.8 w) vs. PL (7.2 +/- 29.6 w). Growth hormone concentrations were elevated from BL at IP and 15P for both groups, while cortisol concentrations were greater than BL at all time points for both BA and PL. No group differences were noted. No change from BL was seen in testosterone concentrations for either group. Results indicate that four weeks of beta-alanine supplementation can significantly improve muscular endurance during resistance training in experienced resistance-trained athletes. However, these performance gains did not affect the acute endocrine response to the exercise stimulus.
PMID: 18548362 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by RighteousReason, 08 October 2009 - 01:52 AM.

[RighteousReason]

...

Edited by RighteousReason, 08 October 2009 - 01:52 AM.

[RighteousReason]

Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise

R. M. Chandler, H. K. Byrne, J. G. Patterson and J. L. Ivy
Department of Kinesiology, University of Texas at Austin 78712.

To examine the effect of carbohydrate and/or protein supplements on the hormonal state of the body after weight-training exercise, nine experienced male weight lifters were given water (Control) or an isocaloric carbohydrate (CHO; 1.5 g/kg body wt), protein (PRO; 1.38 g/kg body wt), or carbohydrate-protein (CHO/PRO; 1.06 g carbohydrate/kg body wt and 0.41 g protein/kg) supplement immediately and 2 h after a standardized weight-training workout. Venous blood samples were drawn before and immediately after exercise and during 8 h of recovery. Exercise induced elevations in lactate, glucose, testosterone, and growth hormone. CHO and CHO/PRO stimulated higher insulin concentrations than PRO and Control. CHO/PRO led to an increase in growth hormone 6 h postexercise that was greater than PRO and Control. Supplements had no effect on insulin-like growth factor I but caused a significant decline in testosterone. The decline in testosterone, however, was not associated with a decline in luteinizing hormone, suggesting an increased clearance of testosterone after supplementation. The results suggest that nutritive supplements after weight-training exercise can produce a hormonal environment during recovery that may be favorable to muscle growth by stimulating insulin and growth hormone elevations.

Edited by RighteousReason, 08 October 2009 - 01:52 AM.

[RighteousReason]

A study was carried out in 15 male volunteers to evaluate qualitatively the secretion of growth factors following stimulation by oral amino acids. The results showed that oral administration of a combination of two amino acids (1200 mg 1-lysine plus 1200 mg 1-arginine) provoked a release of pituitary somatotropin and insulin. This phenomenon was reproducible and the growth hormone secreted in response to this stimulation had biological activity (as demonstrated by a radioreceptor assay and somatomedin induction). The effect appeared to be specific to the combination of the two amino acids; neither of the amino acids demonstrated appreciable stimulating activity when administered alone, even at the same doses.

PMID: 6790230 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Sixteen men completed four trials at random as follows: (Trial A) performance of a single bout of resistance exercise preceded by placebo ingestion (vitamin C); (Trial B) ingestion of 1,500 mg L-arginine and 1,500 mg L-lysine, immediately followed by exercise as in Trial A; (Trial C) ingestion of amino acids as in Trial B and no exercise; (Trial D) placebo ingestion and no exercise. Growth hormone (GH) concentrations were higher at 30, 60, and 90 min during the exercise trials (A and B) compared with the resting trials (C and D) (p < .05). No differences were noted in [GH] between the exercise trials. [GH] was significantly elevated during resting conditions 60 min after amino acid ingestion compared with the placebo trial. It was concluded that ingestion of 1,500 mg arginine and 1,500 mg lysine immediately before resistance exercise does not alter exercise-induced changes in [GH] in young men. However, when the same amino acid mixture is ingested under basal conditions, the acute secretion of GH is increased.

PMID: 9063764 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by RighteousReason, 08 October 2009 - 01:53 AM.

[RighteousReason]

Hrm I'm looking for studies on taurine right now. I've been taking it for a while but I can't remember why now.

Ah, posted by Funk, http://www.imminst.o...o...=10793&st=0

Amino Acids. 2004 Mar;26(2):203-7. Epub 2003 May 9.

Role of taurine supplementation to prevent exercise-induced oxidative stress in healthy young men.

Zhang M, Izumi I, Kagamimori S, Sokejima S, Yamagami T, Liu Z, Qi B.

Department of Welfare Promotion and Epidemiology, Faculty of Medicine, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Toyama, Japan.

To evaluate the protective effects of taurine supplementation on exercise-induced oxidative stress and exercise performance, eleven men aged 18-20 years were selected to participate in two identical bicycle ergometer exercises until exhaustion. Single cell gel assay (SCG assay) was used to study DNA damage in white blood cells (WBC). Pre-supplementation of taurine, a significant negative correlation was found between plasma taurine concentration before exercise and plasma thiobaribituric-acid reactive substance (TBARS) 6 hr after exercise (r = -0.642, p<0.05). WBC showed a significant increase in DNA strand breakage 6 hr and 24 hr after exercise. Seven-day taurine supplementation reduced serum TBARS before exercise ( p<0.05) and resulted in a significantly reduced DNA migration 24 hr after exercise ( p<0.01). Significant increases were also found in VO(2)max, exercise time to exhaustion and maximal workload in test with taurine supplementation ( p<0.05). After supplementation, the change in taurine concentration showed positive correlations with the changes in exercise time to exhaustion and maximal workload. The results suggest that taurine may attenuate exercise-induced DNA damage and enhance the capacity of exercise due to its cellular protective properties.

PMID: 15042451 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by RighteousReason, 08 October 2009 - 02:02 AM.

[RighteousReason]

Why no casein? I think of casein as an important supplement for building muscle. You should really get plenty of it before bed, my way is just having a lot of milk. The reason is that it digests slowly so your muscles get protein all night long.

The only thing bad I have heard is that if you already have cancer, you should not have any casein as cancer feeds on it

You're right. Casein IS better than egg in terms of the amount of time digesting (slow release). Egg digests in about 4 hours, casein about 7 hours. You can increase the amount of time egg digests by mixing it with fats.

Casein protein would be optimal at night since you get a few extra hours. The only issues with casein are unresolved potential health issues, especially in large amounts, which is why I'm not recommending it. But if muscle building is your #1 goal, casein certainly would work better than egg at night.

I'm reading that an egg digests in 45 minutes.

[ensun]

If you're talking the time it takes to hit your intestines, sure. But it takes much longer than 45 minutes for egg protein to reach your muscles. Most sources place egg protein at 2-4 hours and casein protein at 5-7 hours.

It is well-known within the bodybuilding industry that egg protein is a medium-rate digested protein. Coupled with the fact that egg protein has the best amino acid profile of any natural protein, is highly bioavailable when cooked and has a good health/safety profile, I feel it is the best overall protein.

In response to just taking amino acids, sure, I guess that could work. But there are many studies over the years that show that increased protein intake results in increased protein synthesis in the muscles. Those in the group with higher protein intake make larger lean muscle gains. One study showed a nearly tripling in gains with just double the protein intake (from 1.4g/kg to 2.8g/kg). So you can still build mass, but you're not maximizing your gains.

A high protein diet also comes with other benefits, namely, increased satiety and thermogenesis (and thus less fat) due to the fact that digesting protein is metabolically expensive.

[RighteousReason]

If you're talking the time it takes to hit your intestines, sure. But it takes much longer than 45 minutes for egg protein to reach your muscles. Most sources place egg protein at 2-4 hours and casein protein at 5-7 hours.

I'm calling you out. Do you have any references for this?

[RighteousReason]

It took my about a year since I've started bench pressing again and I've finally hit 225 today. My technique has improved dramatically, I really have had poor technique for like a year until I figured a couple things out just this past week.

[navyblue]

It took my about a year since I've started bench pressing again and I've finally hit 225 today. My technique has improved dramatically, I really have had poor technique for like a year until I figured a couple things out just this past week.

Used to bench press (6 years ago) in power-lifting competitions and was able to hit 470 without assistance or special equipment and weighing only 196lbs. Technique is crucial. At the time I was taking creatine (i think, but pretty sure), acetabolin II by MuscleTech, and a multivitamin. Every now and again I would down some whey protein loaded with aminos after a workout. I wasn't particularly huge, but was very thick. Aminos and creatine have always been my staple. But be careful if you ever take creatine because it will require you to drink a lot of water. Unfortunately I had strained some muscles because I did not do this.

[Logan]

If you really want to build upper body mass you have to do lower body training. Squats and lunges actually increase production of testosterone more than any other exercise. I think high reps of squats on the same day that you do an upper body exercise will allow you to get more out of that upper body exercise. Anyway, if you just do lower body on a regular basis you will increase testosterone that will help you build more upper body mass. I know this was not a supplement suggestion but I thought I might add it anyway.

[RighteousReason]

Used to bench press (6 years ago) in power-lifting competitions and was able to hit 470 without assistance or special equipment and weighing only 196lbs. Technique is crucial.

That's awesome, you are right, technique is so crucial. I feel like I'm going to make much faster progress now that I've got better technique

[RighteousReason]

If you really want to build upper body mass you have to do lower body training. Squats and lunges actually increase production of testosterone more than any other exercise. I think high reps of squats on the same day that you do an upper body exercise will allow you to get more out of that upper body exercise. Anyway, if you just do lower body on a regular basis you will increase testosterone that will help you build more upper body mass. I know this was not a supplement suggestion but I thought I might add it anyway.

Interesting point, I agree with you. If you think about testosterone and growth hormone being released as a result of exercise, working out the largest muscles in your body doing squats and leg exercises makes total sense for boosting muscle mass everywhere in your body.

[navyblue]

May not realize it, but the legs are also used in the bench press. And yes, they are definitely important. Instead of going high reps on legs, do them on a different day. Below is the split that had helped me. Cardio if needed was done either after an upper body workout or on a rest day. If your lifting heavy, then rest is also very important.

Mon: Lower
Tues: Upper
Wed: Rest
Thur: Lower
Fri: Upper
Sat: Rest
Sun: Rest