34 replies to this topic

[Brafarality]

If body creates mind, then I have a question:

Is there any other phenomenon in nature that is composed of molecules (simplified approach, no doubt, but, if you reduce the brain, it comes down to organic chemistry and molecules) but cannot be 'observed' at some level and via some means other than consciousness?

The great example of an emergent state or property, 'water', is very observable, as are nuclear fission, quasars, lobsters, hurricanes and flocks of sheep.
These are all 'observable' via some means, whether it be the eye, ear, radio telescope, LFO detector, etc., but consciousness is not observable in the same way, but it is supposedly composed of molecules.

In fine:
Consciousness is composed of molecules but cannot be 'observed' like just about everything else that is also composed of molecules. How is this possible?

[Soma]

:
Consciousness is composed of molecules but cannot be 'observed' like just about everything else that is also composed of molecules. How is this possible?

Science neatly gets around this problem by denying the actual existence of consciousness. It sounds completely crazy, but it is true. According to empirical science, consciousness is an illusion. It simply doesn't exist. It is considered an epiphenomenon of brain chemistry.

I find it funny that all of science (as well as every other human institution) is fundamentally born of and created at every level through consciousness, yet consciousness is said not to exist. Interesting.

For evolutionary psychologists and materialists, the problem of the mind is solved by considering it to be “a machine, nothing but the on-board computer of a robot made of tissue” (Pinker, 1997). Similarly, Daniel Dennett, Director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at Tufts University (Medford, MA, USA) denies the existence of qualia and claims that consciousness is an illusion or an epiphenomenon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1299294/

If science can't explain something then it doesn't exist. This is a convenient and easy way to solve all problems.

Edited by Soma, 31 July 2010 - 01:28 PM.

[Brafarality]

Feeling two unresolvable impressions in complete opposition, but sum up my conflicted feelings:

i. Can't conceive of how the brain can generate consciousness in a way consistent with the laws of nature as I feebly understand them
BUT
ii. Also Can't conceive of the mind separate from the brain.

Neither makes sense, but one must be right. That is, underlying one inconceivable thought is a truth.

Edited by Brafarality, 08 March 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[YanaRay]

Where is your mind, your sense of self when you're in a deep sleep? If someone could observe that state somehow, from inside of the body, would "me, sleeping" be any different from "you, sleeping"?

[GoingPrimal]

This may be an old topic but all one has to do is look a bit deeper into any mystic tradition to see examples of what the op is talking about. Speaking specifically from yogic/Buddhist traditions one does not have to look deep at all to find examples of what could be referred to as supranormal abilities. If you look at one of the most well known texts on raja yoga, The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, the third section of the text is devoted to how one can attain different powers through having strengthened and purified the mind. While this may be a bit much for people to accept, the earlier portion of the text explains how to attain the states of concentration needed to foster these abilities, which may be a bit easier to swallow for some. Buddhist and Yogic traditions are filled with stories of humans with powers comparable to that of Jesus, and just because these folk don't come out of the woodwork right now and prove these feats on CNN doesn't mean they don't exist.

That said, let's not forget the insane power of people's limiting beliefs to dismiss what doesn't currently fit into theirs ideas of what reality is or should be. This ignorance of other people and their ideas was and of course still is the main contributing factor to bloodshed. My point is not to convince any people on this forum that anything outside of the norm does exist, which would be a losing battle, but to encourage people to take a good hard look at themselves to see if they refute ideas they find too bizarre because of their fear that the world is just a bit stranger than they thought it was. God forbid their sense of self gets threatened.

I'll end by mentioning those who find these things too much to swallow by pointing them torwards quantum physics first and the baffling theories within, some of which have already been mentioned, and which the religion of the west (science) still hasn't figured out. After that, check out the Buddhist meditation of tummo, during which trained monks meditate in the middle of the snow, in Tibet, draped in wet, icy cloths, and within an hour they have produced so much body heat they've dried the rags and melted all the snow around them for a circumference of six feet. This has been validated by modern science btw, it's no legend or lore.