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Larry Johnson's allegations


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#31 niner

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 09:15 PM

If Kurzweil is right, then Ted just had a minor setback sicne his DNA is all there and the AI will swoop in and regenerate what is left.

Not that Kurzweil is right...

Ted's head already had its body removed, which could be considered to be a "significant trauma". The idea that someone was trying to dislodge a tunafish can from his head with a "monkey wrench" worries me a lot more than a blow to his frozen neck. What kind of freezing protocol are they using? Are tunafish cans considered the technology of choice in the cryonics industry today? Is this event at all indicative of the protocols in use today? Or did this event not happen as described?

#32 Mind

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 10:39 PM

It would be nice if someone from the Board of Alcor would chime in on some of these questions.

I am not disturbed about the use of a tuna can as much as the method to remove it. I can see how a cylinder the size and structural stability of a tuna can could be used as a temporary pedestal and I can see how it could be used in a pinch by an organization that has to develop every procedure from scratch. Yes it would be nice if they ordered some sort of special use implement to rest vitrified bodies or heads. Maybe it doesn't bother me as much as others because I am a MacGyver-type fellow and use a lot of duct tape and tuna cans....lol. I would rather they focus on perfecting perfusion, vitrification, and revival than making sure they have a special implement on which to rest patients.

Removing the can with the swing of a wrench (if true) is a little disturbing. If there was even a very small chance of damaging the head then just leave the thing on already!

#33 advancedatheist

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 04:21 AM

The indignation over Alcor's alleged treatment of its patients seems incongruous in a society which has accepted Gunther von Hagens's Body Worlds shows. I guess you can get away with plastinating, flaying and partially dissecting human cadavers for public display. But trying to save people's lives by freezing them through admittedly unpleasant and unperfected procedures somehow violates the sanctity of the human body. I don't understand what criterion people use to make the distinction.

#34 RighteousReason

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 12:45 PM

http://www.alcor.org...s/response.html

October 5, 2009: Response to Media Allegations

Alcor Life Extension Foundation Granted Temporary Restraining Order Against Larry Johnson

Earlier today, Judge James Yates of the Supreme Court of the State of New York entered a Temporary Restraining Order against Larry Johnson, forbidding disclosure of any confidential information which is not already contained in his inflammatory and misguided book entitled, Frozen: My Journey into the World of Cryonics. The book was originally scheduled for release on October 6, 2009, but Vanguard Press, the publisher of the book, was allowing sales of the book in advance of today's hearing. It was also admitted at the hearing that Vanguard Press shipped copies of the book despite knowing there was a July 7, 2009 judgment entered in Maricopa County, Arizona against Mr. Johnson, forbidding disclosure of any confidential or illegally obtained information about Alcor, its members or its operations.

Upon receiving the Court's Order, Alcor legal counsel, Clifford A. Wolff stated, "Alcor is pleased that the Court prevented Larry Johnson from any further disclosures of confidential information and that Judge Yates gave validity to the judgment entered against Mr. Johnson in Maricopa County, Arizona. Alcor will continue its legal efforts for sanctions and damages against the defendants in order to protect the privacy rights of its members and employees."

According to Dr. Ralph Merkle, speaking on behalf of Alcor's Board of Directors, "We are pleased that the Court Order will prevent Mr. Johnson from any further violations of the previously obtained Judgment. The book is based upon illegally obtained and misleading information that also violates the privacy rights of our members and employees." Merkle added, "We are disappointed that a book publisher would knowingly sell for profit confidential information of Alcor and its members even after receiving notice of a previously entered judgment forbidding disclosure."

The book's primary author, Larry Johnson, was employed at Alcor for approximately seven months during 2003. He served as Director of Clinical Services and briefly as Chief Operating Officer. Johnson admits that, during his employment, he stole confidential documents and medical photographs from Alcor and "secretly recorded" private conversations with Alcor staff members.

Obviously, Johnson intentionally invaded the privacy of individuals and abused his position of trust to gather materials for the sale of an exploitive book.

According to Merkle, an internationally respected scientist who has served on the nonprofit organization's Board for over a decade, "Larry Johnson's covert misconduct demonstrates his disrespect for Alcor, its patients, its 900 members, and the law. As an employee of Alcor, his duty was to protect the interests of our members and the public. Unfortunately, his actions seem motivated by nothing more than desire for his own personal gain."

Merkle said that Johnson's main area of responsibility during his tenure at Alcor in 2003 was the supervision of the cryopreservation of Alcor members. According to Merkle, "Johnson expressed none of his lurid and sensationalistic concerns during his employment — when preventing and correcting any such alleged mistakes would have been a major part of his duties. Only afterwards, when he could profit from exaggerations and misrepresentations, did he start to complain about how Alcor performed cryopreservations."

Some of Johnson's most derogatory attacks of Alcor involve alleged mistakes during the cryopreservation of baseball great Ted Williams. Merkle said "It is absurd for Johnson to make these allegations because he had yet to be hired by Alcor when Williams was cryopreserved. Ted Williams was cryopreserved with the care and scientific rigor that Alcor devotes to all its patients. Mr. Johnson's claims are not only harmful to Alcor and its members, but also violate the privacy rights of the Williams family. It is a travesty that Mr. Johnson would knowingly and blatantly violate the Williams family's privacy in utter disregard of both the law and professional norms."

Alcor spokesperson, Cheryl Walsh, added that "publication of a book does not ensure its truthfulness as has been demonstrated in the past in such cases as James Frey's A Million Little Pieces and Herman Rosenblat's An Angel at the Fence. Even Oprah Winfrey, with her expansive staff, was deceived by these authors. Alcor's Board will not and can not stand by and allow Mr. Johnson to tarnish nearly 40 years of diligence and commitment by members, volunteers, scientists and professional staff. Alcor must set the record straight and ensure that Mr. Johnson is not permitted to cause havoc and confusion with his misleading claims."

Supplementary Documents:

Complaint filed in the Supreme Court of New York on October, 5, 2009. This complaint concerns the narrow issue of whether publication of the book by Larry Johnson and Scott Baldyga was a knowing violation of a standing court order and prior legal agreements. The broader issue of the numerous false and defamatory claims of the book will be the subject of separate litigation, likely by numerous parties.
Arizona Court Order against Larry Johnson
Rebuttal of similar 2003 allegations
Forensic analysis of Larry Johnson's PC
Interview with Larry Johnson
Attempt to sell photographs online
Explanation of neuropreservation


Well I feel a little bit better about all this. I am disappointed to not see a flat statement that: "The claims about mistreatment of ALCOR patients are false", I feel like they are leaving it open whether or not the claims of mistreatment of ALCOR patients is in fact true or false. That's the primary thing I am concerned about, not whether not his statements were made legally!

It is still quite disappointing that this guy somehow managed to get into such influential places in the organization.

Edited by RighteousReason, 06 October 2009 - 12:56 PM.


#35 kurt9

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 01:43 AM

I remember that Ted William's suspension was around July 4th, 2002. I remember this because I was waiting in an airport to get on my flight to Japan and the Ted Williams suspension case was all over the CNN news. I even got to see Max More on CNN on the displays in the airport. My understanding is that Larry Johnson was not even employed by Alcor at that time. Is this true? If so, could Larry Johnson schizophrenic or have mood instability? Or does he just have a grudge against Alcor because maybe he was fired or something?

#36 Cyberbrain

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 02:24 AM

Just in, or just saw I should say, Larry Johnson just appeared (October 7) on the Campbell Brown show on CNN where for ten minutes he bashed the hell out of Alcor, but at the end Campbell Brown exposed him for being a profiteer lol!

Edited by Cyberbrain, 08 October 2009 - 02:29 AM.


#37 advancedatheist

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 02:33 AM

I remember that Ted William's suspension was around July 4th, 2002. I remember this because I was waiting in an airport to get on my flight to Japan and the Ted Williams suspension case was all over the CNN news. I even got to see Max More on CNN on the displays in the airport. My understanding is that Larry Johnson was not even employed by Alcor at that time. Is this true? If so, could Larry Johnson schizophrenic or have mood instability? Or does he just have a grudge against Alcor because maybe he was fired or something?


Johnson writes such bizarre things about the Venturists that I have to wonder about his grasp on reality. As you may remember, we Venturists helped to raise money to put William O'Rights into cryonic suspension with CI. Yet Johnson, following Kunzman, views the Venturists as some kind of weird cult which lives in a Branch-Davidian like "compound" out in the desert. (And a very nice compound, suitable for affordable romantic getaways, I might add.)

For example on pp. 332-333 of Frozen, Johnson indicates that he hooked up with Alan Kunzman, formerly a deputy with Riverside County's medical examiner's office at the time of the Dora Kent incident involving Alcor in the late 1980's. Kunzman published his own book MotherMelters a few years ago. Johnson writes:

While Alan Kunzman was working the Dora Kent case, his informant told him of a
cryonicist "fortress" owned by David Pizer. This apparently wasn't the Creekside
Preserve location near Prescott I had visited; in some postings online I
gathered there had been an earlier version of Ventureville in the Phoenix area.
The informant claimed there were stores of survivalist gear buried out there.
Guns, bombs, medical supplies, cryonics equipment, everything they'd need to
hole up prior to Armageddon and prepare for its aftermath. There were
underground bunkers, he said, surrounded by barbed wire and claymore mines.


Alan read documents that corroborated his informant's claim, describing how
buses had been purchased and modified and then joined together underground.
These were filled with water and supplies, and the entire area was mined.


Alan's informant also talked about desert locations where he believed bodies
could be found. Teenage runaways and homeless people. Alan's informant suspected
Alcorians and David Pizer's Venturists had kidnapped "people who wouldn't be
missed" and then experimented on them until they died.


That was a very serious and shocking allegation. However, after having spent
time with Pizer and his followers, I believed it could be true.


In fact, I had hear rumors of the exact same thing while I was at Alcor in
Scottsdale, almost twenty years after Alan's informant came forward. That was
one of the reasons I had wanted to stay even longer at Alcor, bugging my
colleagues, to get proof of those rumored kidnappings and alleged murders.
Hearing that Alan's informant had the same suspicions was extremely frightening.


Yeah, I have a rough life in the Venturist cult, driving all those bodies out to the desert to cover up our crimes.

I wish these simpletons in the media would pick up on this aspect of Johnson's story, confront him with it and then show how Johnson sounds like a lunatic.

And I do mean simpletons. The Nightline story after Johnson's appearance last night discussed whether teens commit blasphemy when they text each other "OMG," which goes to show the two-digit IQ level of a lot of "news" coverage these days.

#38 JediMasterLucia

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 08:37 AM

http://www.alcornews...c_nightlin.html

Alcor Response to ABC Nightline and Larry Johnson Allegations

October 7, 2009

Last night, Larry Johnson appeared on ABC’s Nightline to promote the sale of his book, “Frozen: My Journey into Cryonics, Deception and Death.” Mr. Johnson continues to violate legal agreements with Alcor and an Arizona Court’s judgment prohibiting him from engaging in such activities. It is inexcusable and indefensible that Mr. Johnson would invade the privacy of private individuals and continue his false allegations against Alcor and its members. Mr. Johnson has had numerous opportunities to defend his actions in a court of law – both in Arizona and New York. He has failed to appear in Court in both states and has taken extreme steps to avoid service of process, and yet has no problem appearing on national television to slander innocent people and attempt to destroy a 40 year old nonprofit organization that has worked hard to gain respect among many in the scientific and medical communities. Johnson’s blatant disrespect for the law is yet another example of his disregard for the interests and rights of any other than his own.

Nightline made efforts to investigate Mr. Johnson’s many fallacious claims. Mr. Johnson was caught in his own web of deceit when one of his claimed errors in the Ted Williams case was exposed as false. He was also forced to admit that he tried to profit from the death of baseball great, Ted Williams by charging visitors to his website $20 to view alleged photos of Mr. Williams’ cryopreserved head. Such photos, some of which are part of internal case documentation files, were removed from Alcor without authorization by Mr. Johnson. Since August of 2004, Mr. Johnson has refused to abide by a settlement agreement he signed, a formal settlement agreement ordered by the mediator and a Court order to return all audiotapes, photos and the many other illegally obtained documents he removed from Alcor’s patient files. Sadly, this is just one of the many instances of Mr. Johnson’s shameless profiteering at the expense of the very people he was hired to protect.

While it is impossible to address all the false assertions in Mr. Johnson’s book in a brief statement, Alcor would like to set the record straight on some of the specifics addressed in the Nightline segment.

In his book and during the Nightline segment, Mr. Johnson claimed he witnessed Alcor staff striking Ted William's head with a wrench. Mr. Johnson, who was an executive with authority over the procedure in question, also claimed he said nothing about the purported incident when it allegedly occurred nor did he bring it to the attention of any other staff or board member. In fact, multiple individuals verified as documented witnesses to patient transfer procedures state without hesitation that Mr. Johnson’s claims are pure fabrication. Alcor’s internal investigation did not reveal any reports or recollections of any Alcor patient ever being struck by a wrench or any other object, accidentally or otherwise. Yet this fictional and unsubstantiated report continues to echo, as if it is fact, over and over again in the media.

Johnson’s statements about tissue debris, tuna, and cats are fictionalized accounts crafted for maximum tabloid shock value, as is nearly the entirety of his book. Alcor denies exposing patients to any devices or equipment that are not appropriate for their function, clean, and sterile as required. Alcor condemns the gross insensitivity of news media in presenting Johnson’s stories as newsworthy, desecrating the memory of Ted Williams to the great upset of his family, who were "horrified and shocked" in a New York courtroom on Monday when learning sales of Johnson’s book would go forward. This was particularly heinous since the publisher apparently knowingly accelerated release of the book in order to preclude the Temporary Restraining Order requested by Alcor and the Williams family. The situation sadly demonstrates how easy it is for one malicious individual to taint the memory of a great man, emotionally crush a family, and damage decades of work by others. That this is presented as wrong-doing on Alcor’s part is incomprehensible.

Johnson also alleged that Ted Williams’ head was stored in an unsafe malfunctioning freezer. Patient confidentiality agreements limit Alcor’s ability to discuss treatment of specific patients; however, we can confirm that in some instances, and for specific reasons, Alcor neuropatients have been stored for periods as long as one year in a type of low temperature freezer called a Cryostar at temperatures near -130˚C. This is done for purposes of relaxing thermal stress prior to final descent to -196˚C, the temperature of liquid nitrogen, to reduce the incidence of thermal stress fractures. This is very expensive, so it has only been done in cases where patients privately requested and paid for it, or on recommendation of scientific advisors for certain cases.

Cryostar storage was not done at any risk to patients. Patients were protected from temperature fluctuations by thermal buffering provided by their containers and surrounding foam insulation. In addition, they were surrounded by dry ice. Furthermore, the entire Cryostar freezer was connected to battery-powered liquid nitrogen backup so that even total mechanical failure or power failure could not result in warming. Finally, frequent scheduled and documented human monitoring of Alcor storage facilities would result in rapid detection of any problems. Any statements made by individuals that the Cryostar was unsafe for interim storage were either misinformed, or assumed a freezer not equipped with thermal buffering or backup systems.

As to references to “cracking” in his book and media reports, as former Director of Clinical Services, Johnson knows full well that fracturing is expected in every cryopreservation and is an unavoidable result of cooling large volumes of tissue toward liquid nitrogen temperature. There is an entire essay on this subject and the role of -130˚C storage as it pertains to fracturing, on the Alcor website. Mr. Johnson’s representations of fracturing (as revealed by Alcor’s careful monitoring and documentation of fracturing) as being the result of mishandling is deliberately misleading and crafted for shock value. This whole line of allegation is recycled from Mr. Johnson’s allegations in 2003 and has been previously dismissed.

The sensationalized reference to the use of a “hammer and chisel” in a cryopreservation demonstrates either Mr. Johnson’s ignorance or an effort to hoodwink the public. In a surgical context, those instruments are called a “mallet and osteotome” commonly used by orthopedists for surgical procedures involving bone. In testimony before a hearing of the Arizona House of Representatives in 2004, Alcor in fact testified that these instruments are utilized in cryonics surgical procedures. Johnson is again recycling his tabloid-style 2003 allegations trying to manufacture scandal where there is none.

Johnson also offered audio tapes claimed to be discussions of the hastening of the death of an AIDS patient cryopreserved by Alcor in 1992, an allegation refuted by the patient’s nurse on Nightline. These alleged recordings cannot be independently verified. To the extent the conversations were recorded illegally, taken out of context or edited by Mr. Johnson to suit his personal gain, we need to respect the rights of those individuals to take legal action against Mr. Johnson.

Alcor's operations are overseen by its Board of Directors, which meets on a monthly basis to review reports of Alcor's staff and management and to address other issues of significance to the organization. Alcor's management and its Board of Directors take seriously all reports or allegations of individual or institutional misconduct or other failings in the high operational standards to which Alcor holds itself. Notwithstanding the fact that Mr. Johnson's allegations were not raised to the Board or management at the time when he was an employee, and notwithstanding the six-year delay of some of these allegations and the for-profit format in which he has brought them, and notwithstanding the many allegations already determined to be factually incorrect, Alcor will continue to investigate each and every allegation in Mr. Johnson’s book in order to determine whether any internal corrections are warranted. The information collected will be valuable for ongoing and yet-to-be filed lawsuits against Johnson for violations of confidentiality, defamation, and other causes of action related to his prior employment at Alcor.

It is important to note that Mr. Johnson came to Alcor with supposed medical experience, and he was paid and entrusted to improve procedures and ensure the safety and privacy of Alcor members. In his short tenure, Mr. Johnson misappropriated Alcor property for his own financial gain; he invaded the privacy of private individuals by secretly recording their conversations; he absconded with medical records and technical photographs that were taken for documentation purposes and has presented these out of the context in which they were intended in order to make Alcor and its well-founded and documented procedures seem ghoulish in the eyes of the unsuspecting public. Mr. Johnson’s actions violated the trust of Alcor, breached the confidence of its members and damaged the reputation of the science of cryonics.

As Nightline asked in the lead-in to the segment, “is this self-styled whistleblower just out to make money?” The answer is a resounding yes.

It is unexplainable and indefensible that Mr. Johnson would voice his allegations in a book for profit and continue these unauthorized disclosures in the press while thumbing his nose at the legal system. Alcor is a non-profit organization, a pioneer in the field of cryonics and categorically denies the false allegations contained in Mr. Johnson’s book. We are prepared to take any and all action available within the legal system to protect the rights and privacy of our members. It is a difficult time for the members of Alcor, the families of our patients, and the private individuals who are attacked personally in Mr. Johnson’s book, but we have faith in the legal system and believe that, in time, Mr. Johnson will be brought to justice and Alcor will be fully vindicated.



#39 air90

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 03:31 PM

Quoting the court order;

"The Johnsons are enjoined from publishing or communicating any information about Alcor to third parties"

I just heard him on the Howard Stern show, is this not a violation of the court order?

From the show website. http://www.howardstern.com

"BASEBALL WITH TED WILLIAMS' HEAD
Howard got Larry Johnson, a former executive at the Alcor Life Extension Corporation, on the line to talk about his book, “Frozen,” which accuses Alcor employees of mistreating baseball great Ted Williams' cryogenically frozen head. Howard was confused by Larry's written description of Ted's head-mount, so Larry explained that a stand is needed for each head: "They put a tuna can at the bottom of each canister and then they put the head [upside down] on top of the tuna can."
Asked about the alleged "baseball" incident, Larry explained that technicians once repeatedly swung a large wrench at Ted's head-mount/tuna can in their effort to remove/un-stick it from the top of the scalp. Larry also revealed that Williams whole body was originally supposed to be cryogenically frozen, but due to clerical error, his head was removed from his body – with a hammer and chisel."

Edited by air90, 08 October 2009 - 03:32 PM.


#40 Mind

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 05:27 PM

It is about time Alcor came out with a thorough statement. What took so long? They should have made a spokesperson available throughout the whole ordeal.

#41 tripperm

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 08:05 PM

As mentioned earlier, Larry Johnson was on CNN with Campbell Brown last night. I didn't happen to see it, but I did find a transcript online of the interview if anyone is interested. It's about mid way through the transcript that the interview takes place:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0910/07/ec.01.html

I thought this part was the most hilarious:

BROWN: Now Alcor has called you a profiteer. And let's face it, you are. You're out trying to sell this book. I mean no offense by it, but let's look at the facts.

You posted photos on the Internet of other patients and you charge people to see them.

JOHNSON: I did that for about two or three hours before I thought, you know what? This is wrong. I need to stop that.

BROWN: OK. But can you see why people are going to say this guy has no credibility.

JOHNSON: Absolutely. Absolutely.

BROWN: You've got to question his motives. He's a jerk.

JOHNSON: Absolutely. Absolutely. I tell you, I was -- I was out of my mind. And if you had seen what I had seen in that facility, you never really know how you are going to react until you're put under that. And I look back at that time, that point, and I regret every minute of that.


So basically according to Johnson, he was so "out of his mind" by what he saw that it drove him to try and profit from pictures of dead people (which he stole) on the Internet. Um yeah - that makes sense - NOT! Also if I remember correctly, when Johnson pulled down those pictures he said on his website that he did it because his lawyer advised him to pull them down, not because of some realization that what he was doing was wrong.

#42 JediMasterLucia

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:56 PM

It is about time Alcor came out with a thorough statement. What took so long? They should have made a spokesperson available throughout the whole ordeal.

I agree. the spokesperson could tell on TV their side of the story.
I think not everybody goes to the Internet and read the responses of Alcor...

#43 RighteousReason

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 03:02 AM

http://www.alcornews...c_nightlin.html

Alcor Response to ABC Nightline and Larry Johnson Allegations

Finally, this is what I have been looking for. I am entirely relieved. And on a side note, what a dick this guy is! What he's doing is criminal

Edit: trimmed quote

Edited by niner, 09 October 2009 - 03:09 AM.


#44 imm1288

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 09:05 AM

I think that you guys may be engaging in some wishful thinking. The Alcor response is inadequate in a number of ways, including:

1. Not actually denying all of Johnson's allegations.
2. Alcor is using sleight of hand with their denial of the Ted Williams allegations. Just because Johnson wasn't at Alcor when Ted Williams was suspended, doesn't mean that he wasn't there AFTER Ted Williams was suspended and still at Alcor. Maybe the incident didn't occur, but Alcor is using an alibi which is obviously problematic, and that is suspicious in itself.
3. It is amazing to see some people rationalize the part about swinging a wrench at a suspended head by saying that it's OK as long as you don't hit it or the damage isn't too great. Besides the fact that it's not OK to do that to the head of a person who you want to revive, that also misses the broader point that if suspended bodies are being played with, the culture of the organization may be deleterious.
4. Also, in general, the Alcor statement spends a lot of time talking about breach of confidential information, rather than explaining why somebody should actually trust Alcor. Why should we care that the information is confidential? Alcor should save that for the courtroom. As customers we should want to know if the fundamentals are good, not if they are confidential.

The bottom line is that there are more hucksters out there in this field than in other fields, because it is a new one and because it deals with universal human yearnings like cheating death. It is worth being skeptical. Don't defend Alcor just because you think that it is "on your side," because if it's doing a bad job, then it is actually not on your side.

I recognize that I know a lot less about Alcor and this field than most of you, but I wanted to present an opposing viewpoint here.

Edited by imm1288, 12 October 2009 - 09:19 AM.


#45 RighteousReason

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 11:31 AM

I think that you guys may be engaging in some wishful thinking. The Alcor response is inadequate in a number of ways, including:

1. Not actually denying all of Johnson's allegations.
2. Alcor is using sleight of hand with their denial of the Ted Williams allegations. Just because Johnson wasn't at Alcor when Ted Williams was suspended, doesn't mean that he wasn't there AFTER Ted Williams was suspended and still at Alcor. Maybe the incident didn't occur, but Alcor is using an alibi which is obviously problematic, and that is suspicious in itself.
3. It is amazing to see some people rationalize the part about swinging a wrench at a suspended head by saying that it's OK as long as you don't hit it or the damage isn't too great. Besides the fact that it's not OK to do that to the head of a person who you want to revive, that also misses the broader point that if suspended bodies are being played with, the culture of the organization may be deleterious.
4. Also, in general, the Alcor statement spends a lot of time talking about breach of confidential information, rather than explaining why somebody should actually trust Alcor. Why should we care that the information is confidential? Alcor should save that for the courtroom. As customers we should want to know if the fundamentals are good, not if they are confidential.

The bottom line is that there are more hucksters out there in this field than in other fields, because it is a new one and because it deals with universal human yearnings like cheating death. It is worth being skeptical. Don't defend Alcor just because you think that it is "on your side," because if it's doing a bad job, then it is actually not on your side.

I recognize that I know a lot less about Alcor and this field than most of you, but I wanted to present an opposing viewpoint here.


Well the admin trimmed the quote, but I'll repaste it here. They actually are denying all allegations outright:

Alcor Response to ABC Nightline and Larry Johnson Allegations

October 7, 2009

Last night, Larry Johnson appeared on ABC’s Nightline to promote the sale of his book, “Frozen: My Journey into Cryonics, Deception and Death.” Mr. Johnson continues to violate legal agreements with Alcor and an Arizona Court’s judgment prohibiting him from engaging in such activities. It is inexcusable and indefensible that Mr. Johnson would invade the privacy of private individuals and continue his false allegations against Alcor and its members. Mr. Johnson has had numerous opportunities to defend his actions in a court of law – both in Arizona and New York. He has failed to appear in Court in both states and has taken extreme steps to avoid service of process, and yet has no problem appearing on national television to slander innocent people and attempt to destroy a 40 year old nonprofit organization that has worked hard to gain respect among many in the scientific and medical communities. Johnson’s blatant disrespect for the law is yet another example of his disregard for the interests and rights of any other than his own.

Nightline made efforts to investigate Mr. Johnson’s many fallacious claims. Mr. Johnson was caught in his own web of deceit when one of his claimed errors in the Ted Williams case was exposed as false. He was also forced to admit that he tried to profit from the death of baseball great, Ted Williams by charging visitors to his website $20 to view alleged photos of Mr. Williams’ cryopreserved head. Such photos, some of which are part of internal case documentation files, were removed from Alcor without authorization by Mr. Johnson. Since August of 2004, Mr. Johnson has refused to abide by a settlement agreement he signed, a formal settlement agreement ordered by the mediator and a Court order to return all audiotapes, photos and the many other illegally obtained documents he removed from Alcor’s patient files. Sadly, this is just one of the many instances of Mr. Johnson’s shameless profiteering at the expense of the very people he was hired to protect.

While it is impossible to address all the false assertions in Mr. Johnson’s book in a brief statement, Alcor would like to set the record straight on some of the specifics addressed in the Nightline segment.

In his book and during the Nightline segment, Mr. Johnson claimed he witnessed Alcor staff striking Ted William's head with a wrench. Mr. Johnson, who was an executive with authority over the procedure in question, also claimed he said nothing about the purported incident when it allegedly occurred nor did he bring it to the attention of any other staff or board member. In fact, multiple individuals verified as documented witnesses to patient transfer procedures state without hesitation that Mr. Johnson’s claims are pure fabrication. Alcor’s internal investigation did not reveal any reports or recollections of any Alcor patient ever being struck by a wrench or any other object, accidentally or otherwise. Yet this fictional and unsubstantiated report continues to echo, as if it is fact, over and over again in the media.

Johnson’s statements about tissue debris, tuna, and cats are fictionalized accounts crafted for maximum tabloid shock value, as is nearly the entirety of his book. Alcor denies exposing patients to any devices or equipment that are not appropriate for their function, clean, and sterile as required. Alcor condemns the gross insensitivity of news media in presenting Johnson’s stories as newsworthy, desecrating the memory of Ted Williams to the great upset of his youngest daughter, who was "horrified and shocked" in a New York courtroom on Monday when learning sales of Johnson’s book would go forward. This was particularly heinous since the publisher apparently knowingly accelerated release of the book in order to preclude the Temporary Restraining Order requested by Alcor and the Williams family. The situation sadly demonstrates how easy it is for one malicious individual to taint the memory of a great man, emotionally crush a family, and damage decades of work by others. That this is presented as wrong-doing on Alcor’s part is incomprehensible.

Johnson also alleged that Ted Williams’ head was stored in an unsafe malfunctioning freezer. Patient confidentiality agreements limit Alcor’s ability to discuss treatment of specific patients; however, we can confirm that in some instances, and for specific reasons, Alcor neuropatients have been stored for periods as long as one year in a type of low temperature freezer called a Cryostar at temperatures near -130˚C. This is done for purposes of relaxing thermal stress prior to final descent to -196˚C, the temperature of liquid nitrogen, to reduce the incidence of thermal stress fractures. This is very expensive, so it has only been done in cases where patients privately requested and paid for it, or on recommendation of scientific advisors for certain cases.

Cryostar storage was not done at any risk to patients. Patients were protected from temperature fluctuations by thermal buffering provided by their containers and surrounding foam insulation. In addition, they were surrounded by dry ice. Furthermore, the entire Cryostar freezer was connected to battery-powered liquid nitrogen backup so that even total mechanical failure or power failure could not result in warming. Finally, frequent scheduled and documented human monitoring of Alcor storage facilities would result in rapid detection of any problems. Any statements made by individuals that the Cryostar was unsafe for interim storage were either misinformed, or assumed a freezer not equipped with thermal buffering or backup systems.

As to references to “cracking” in his book and media reports, as former Director of Clinical Services, Johnson knows full well that fracturing is expected in every cryopreservation and is an unavoidable result of cooling large volumes of tissue toward liquid nitrogen temperature. There is an entire essay on this subject and the role of -130˚C storage as it pertains to fracturing, on the Alcor website. Mr. Johnson’s representations of fracturing (as revealed by Alcor’s careful monitoring and documentation of fracturing) as being the result of mishandling is deliberately misleading and crafted for shock value. This whole line of allegation is recycled from Mr. Johnson’s allegations in 2003 and has been previously dismissed.

The sensationalized reference to the use of a “hammer and chisel” in a cryopreservation demonstrates either Mr. Johnson’s ignorance or an effort to hoodwink the public. In a surgical context, those instruments are called a “mallet and osteotome” commonly used by orthopedists for surgical procedures involving bone. In testimony before a hearing of the Arizona House of Representatives in 2004, Alcor in fact testified that these instruments are utilized in cryonics surgical procedures. Johnson is again recycling his tabloid-style 2003 allegations trying to manufacture scandal where there is none.

Johnson also offered audio tapes claimed to be discussions of the hastening of the death of an AIDS patient cryopreserved by Alcor in 1992, an allegation refuted by the patient’s nurse on Nightline. These alleged recordings cannot be independently verified. To the extent the conversations were recorded illegally, taken out of context or edited by Mr. Johnson to suit his personal gain, we need to respect the rights of those individuals to take legal action against Mr. Johnson.

Alcor's operations are overseen by its Board of Directors, which meets on a monthly basis to review reports of Alcor's staff and management and to address other issues of significance to the organization. Alcor's management and its Board of Directors take seriously all reports or allegations of individual or institutional misconduct or other failings in the high operational standards to which Alcor holds itself. Notwithstanding the fact that Mr. Johnson's allegations were not raised to the Board or management at the time when he was an employee, and notwithstanding the six-year delay of some of these allegations and the for-profit format in which he has brought them, and notwithstanding the many allegations already determined to be factually incorrect, Alcor will continue to investigate each and every allegation in Mr. Johnson’s book in order to determine whether any internal corrections are warranted. The information collected will be valuable for ongoing and yet-to-be filed lawsuits against Johnson for violations of confidentiality, defamation, and other causes of action related to his prior employment at Alcor.

It is important to note that Mr. Johnson came to Alcor with supposed medical experience, and he was paid and entrusted to improve procedures and ensure the safety and privacy of Alcor members. In his short tenure, Mr. Johnson misappropriated Alcor property for his own financial gain; he invaded the privacy of private individuals by secretly recording their conversations; he absconded with medical records and technical photographs that were taken for documentation purposes and has presented these out of the context in which they were intended in order to make Alcor and its well-founded and documented procedures seem ghoulish in the eyes of the unsuspecting public. Mr. Johnson’s actions violated the trust of Alcor, breached the confidence of its members and damaged the reputation of the science of cryonics.

As Nightline asked in the lead-in to the segment, “is this self-styled whistleblower just out to make money?” The answer is a resounding yes.

It is unexplainable and indefensible that Mr. Johnson would voice his allegations in a book for profit and continue these unauthorized disclosures in the press while thumbing his nose at the legal system. Alcor is a non-profit organization, a pioneer in the field of cryonics and categorically denies the false allegations contained in Mr. Johnson’s book. We are prepared to take any and all action available within the legal system to protect the rights and privacy of our members. It is a difficult time for the members of Alcor, the families of our patients, and the private individuals who are attacked personally in Mr. Johnson’s book, but we have faith in the legal system and believe that, in time, Mr. Johnson will be brought to justice and Alcor will be fully vindicated.

Further information and supplementary documents to this statement are available on Alcor’s website.



#46 advancedatheist

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 02:57 PM

The bottom line is that there are more hucksters out there in this field than in other fields, because it is a new one and because it deals with universal human yearnings like cheating death.



1. Given how few people have signed up for cryonics (fewer than 2,000 world wide), I wouldn't characterize the possible "hucksters" in the field as numerous. Even if you view cryonics as a scam in competition with other scams, the huckster market has rejected it as a way to make illegitimate money.

2. The phrase "cheating death" frames the goal of cryonics as inherently immoral, in addition to showing primitive thinking, like in a religious tract:

Posted Image

Edited by advancedatheist, 12 October 2009 - 02:59 PM.


#47 Mind

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 05:17 PM

2. The phrase "cheating death" frames the goal of cryonics as inherently immoral, in addition to showing primitive thinking, like in a religious tract:


Just wanted to highlight this point for all supporters of cryonics, for when you are out in the world discussing it with friends and acquaintances.

#48 advancedatheist

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Posted 12 October 2009 - 06:31 PM

2. The phrase "cheating death" frames the goal of cryonics as inherently immoral, in addition to showing primitive thinking, like in a religious tract:


Just wanted to highlight this point for all supporters of cryonics, for when you are out in the world discussing it with friends and acquaintances.


We generally don't approve of cheating in marriage, business deals, card games, sporting events, etc. We should therefore scrupulously avoid the phrase "cheating death" in discussions of life extension.

#49 six

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 02:29 AM

I just read this book... I signed up with this website just so I could ask some questions. I hope I don't get immediately attacked... I'm not signed up with Alcor or CI, but have read alot about cryonics over the years and have found it interesting and plausable. Had I found this website, before the book, I would have still signed up for an account. I enjoy reading and learning about this.

Anyway... a glaringly obvious thing in FROZEN is that the people at Alcor are not conducting the procedures properly and are doing so without state regulations- and without and sanitary regards, it seems. CI, in Michigan is regulated with the state and works with the funeral homes in that state- and I have never read anything about them being associated with anything like homicide or questionable paperwork for any patient. Alcor seems to fight hard to not have regulations- and really sucks at PR. I have seen extreme postings that regulations are meant to shut Alcor down....thus resulting in "killing" future patients. What if the goal is NOT to shut Alcor down (why would they? CI is still open), wouldn't Alcor only benefit from regulation and cooperation from the state? I saw a posting on this thread earlier where a guy said he had completed everything with Alcor, but had not yet signed the papers. He was a little worried now. Shouldn't he be? I'm not saying he should be worried about cryonics, but maybe Alcor is the Kia of this business, if you will. I think I'll splurge for the Lexus if my future life depends on it. :-D

I hope people posting about the book actually read it- is Larry for real about the dumping of human blood and chemicals down the toilet, drains or dumping it in the bushes? What about the fact that the place was a complete mess and when the "red phone" rings it's chaos. Whether you think cryonics will work or not....if I'm paying over $100,000 for this "procedure" I want the absolute best chance for my money. Also, is it really legal to be transporting "deanimated" bodies in rental vans and uhal trucks?? I find Alcor's practices disturbing- and by that I mean, they seems to just be winging it everytime.

I imagine that cryonics could be as common as burial and cremation- that when you die, you have three choices and hospitals are set up for it just like if you picked burial or cremation. But, it will never get to this point if places like Alcor continue to cut corners...like with the Ted Williams case. Try not to slam me for this one, but I seriously do not believe that Ted Williams wanted this. His son signed the Alcor form as POA and no Ted signature was on it. He did loose his POA when Ted died, and the form was signed after...also the witness was an Alcor employee- so another reason the form was not valid. Yes, I know about the hand scribbled note. I don't believe it's real, and even if it was, those kinds of things should not count. Everything needs to be completely legal- and it's not hard to work that way. Alcor should have had the balls to say, "sorry, eventhough your dad is really famous and we would absolutely LOVE the publicity, we can't bend the rules. He had to sign the ALCOR documents himself, and the witnesses have to be legit. We can't afford to mess up. People watch us very closely and we want to be around to provide this service for our patients 'now AND later!'"

Alright... let me have it. :)

#50 six

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 03:24 AM

Quoting the court order;

"The Johnsons are enjoined from publishing or communicating any information about Alcor to third parties"

I just heard him on the Howard Stern show, is this not a violation of the court order?

From the show website. http://www.howardstern.com

"BASEBALL WITH TED WILLIAMS' HEAD
Howard got Larry Johnson, a former executive at the Alcor Life Extension Corporation, on the line to talk about his book, “Frozen,” which accuses Alcor employees of mistreating baseball great Ted Williams' cryogenically frozen head. Howard was confused by Larry's written description of Ted's head-mount, so Larry explained that a stand is needed for each head: "They put a tuna can at the bottom of each canister and then they put the head [upside down] on top of the tuna can."
Asked about the alleged "baseball" incident, Larry explained that technicians once repeatedly swung a large wrench at Ted's head-mount/tuna can in their effort to remove/un-stick it from the top of the scalp. Larry also revealed that Williams whole body was originally supposed to be cryogenically frozen, but due to clerical error, his head was removed from his body – with a hammer and chisel."



this didn't apply to the book he had already written. he was allowed to discuss anything pertaining to the book. I also heard him on stern. I was hoping stern would have asked better questions other than just focusing on Ted's frozen head.

#51 imm1288

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 07:42 AM

Well the admin trimmed the quote, but I'll repaste it here. They actually are denying all allegations outright:

...
While it is impossible to address all the false assertions in Mr. Johnson’s book in a brief statement, Alcor would like to set the record straight on some of the specifics addressed in the Nightline segment.
...
In his book and during the Nightline segment, Mr. Johnson claimed he witnessed Alcor staff striking Ted William's head with a wrench. Mr. Johnson, who was an executive with authority over the procedure in question, also claimed he said nothing about the purported incident when it allegedly occurred nor did he bring it to the attention of any other staff or board member. In fact, multiple individuals verified as documented witnesses to patient transfer procedures state without hesitation that Mr. Johnson’s claims are pure fabrication. Alcor’s internal investigation did not reveal any reports or recollections of any Alcor patient ever being struck by a wrench or any other object, accidentally or otherwise. Yet this fictional and unsubstantiated report continues to echo, as if it is fact, over and over again in the media.
...


I would just point out to you that the only allegations Alcor is denying outright are the allegations related to Ted Williams (or more precisely, they are anonymously quoting specific people who deny the allegations outright). They even admit they are not responding to every allegation.

It is true that Alcor can't go through the entire book and respond to every allegation in this statement, so perhaps I am holding them to too high a standard, but I was disconcerted that they didn't make more of an effort to address the more generic issues that were raised regarding safeguards.

At the very least, I think that this cries out for more transparency and probably an audit. There should be concrete procedural safeguards and public data that Alcor can point to to demonstrate the integrity of their operation. Instead, their defense right now is more of a he-said-she-said scenario revolving around the credibility of the claimant, which is a fairly weak defense.

Think of an audit/transparency/strict procedures as an investment. It is probably a prerequisite to broader acceptance of cyronics.

Edited by imm1288, 14 October 2009 - 07:52 AM.


#52 cryoguy

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 11:14 PM

Quoting the court order;

"The Johnsons are enjoined from publishing or communicating any information about Alcor to third parties"

I just heard him on the Howard Stern show, is this not a violation of the court order?

From the show website. http://www.howardstern.com

"BASEBALL WITH TED WILLIAMS' HEAD
Howard got Larry Johnson, a former executive at the Alcor Life Extension Corporation, on the line to talk about his book, “Frozen,” which accuses Alcor employees of mistreating baseball great Ted Williams' cryogenically frozen head. Howard was confused by Larry's written description of Ted's head-mount, so Larry explained that a stand is needed for each head: "They put a tuna can at the bottom of each canister and then they put the head [upside down] on top of the tuna can."
Asked about the alleged "baseball" incident, Larry explained that technicians once repeatedly swung a large wrench at Ted's head-mount/tuna can in their effort to remove/un-stick it from the top of the scalp. Larry also revealed that Williams whole body was originally supposed to be cryogenically frozen, but due to clerical error, his head was removed from his body – with a hammer and chisel."



this didn't apply to the book he had already written. he was allowed to discuss anything pertaining to the book. I also heard him on stern. I was hoping stern would have asked better questions other than just focusing on Ted's frozen head.


You are referring to the New York court order. He is in violation of the Arizona Court Order.

#53 cryoguy

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 11:22 PM

It is true that Alcor can't go through the entire book and respond to every allegation in this statement, so perhaps I am holding them to too high a standard, but I was disconcerted that they didn't make more of an effort to address the more generic issues that were raised regarding safeguards.

Knowing many of the people involved, I know for a fact that the book is extensively fictionalized. I've also heard that more detailed replies to all the false allegations are being prepared. I just wish they would publish them sooner, or at least say they were doing that. A work of scandalous fiction presented as fact casts a pall over the whole field.

#54 six

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Posted 14 October 2009 - 11:46 PM

It is true that Alcor can't go through the entire book and respond to every allegation in this statement, so perhaps I am holding them to too high a standard, but I was disconcerted that they didn't make more of an effort to address the more generic issues that were raised regarding safeguards.

Knowing many of the people involved, I know for a fact that the book is extensively fictionalized. I've also heard that more detailed replies to all the false allegations are being prepared. I just wish they would publish them sooner, or at least say they were doing that. A work of scandalous fiction presented as fact casts a pall over the whole field.



If you believe this to be true, would you mind replying to my post above... #49. I'm curious what your explanation is for the dumping of human blood and chemicals into the public sewer system. Will Alcor produce photos of their chemical cleaning and disposal stations and offer their explanation of the what Larry claimed. You better not say that it's okay to dump that crap down the drain....

#55 advancedatheist

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 12:31 AM

Knowing many of the people involved, I know for a fact that the book is extensively fictionalized. I've also heard that more detailed replies to all the false allegations are being prepared. I just wish they would publish them sooner, or at least say they were doing that. A work of scandalous fiction presented as fact casts a pall over the whole field.


Johnson completely fictionalized what he wrote on pp. 332-333 about David Pizer and the Venturists, though he gave himself cover by attributing his defamatory claims to Alan Kunzman's mysterious, unnamed "informant," or calling them "rumors" he heard (from whom?) while working at Alcor.

The gratuitousness of it puzzles me, because in the rest of the book he makes claims based on what he says he personally witnessed, heard in a conversation from a named individual or else could corroborate from the documents he managed to read or copy.

#56 niner

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 02:23 AM

You better not say that it's okay to dump that crap down the drain....

People dump blood and chemicals down the drain in the majority of homes in America. I really can't get that worked up over these allegations without knowing if they are true, for one thing, and the nature of the chemicals involved and volume of blood involved. Even if the volume of blood was large, so what? It's a sewer. Think about what else is in there.

#57 six

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 02:25 PM

You better not say that it's okay to dump that crap down the drain....

People dump blood and chemicals down the drain in the majority of homes in America. I really can't get that worked up over these allegations without knowing if they are true, for one thing, and the nature of the chemicals involved and volume of blood involved. Even if the volume of blood was large, so what? It's a sewer. Think about what else is in there.


seriously? things you pour down the drain end up in your water system.... I'm sorry, but you are a fool to think that this is not an issue... Again, I'm not bashing cryonics...I think it's amazing, but Alcor needs to get their act together if they want to continue on. What they are doing in dangerous.

...and you do know that they are pouring down the drain- human contaminated blood and cryopreservation fluids, the drugs that have been pumped into the body, etc.... my point is that not even funeral homes just pour stuff down the drain- and they also dispose of blood and chemicals. There are REGULTAED!! That's they key here. Alcor needs regulation, but everyone is so afraid to breathe this word in fear of it being shut down! Maybe it should, and the patients should be sent to CI where they comply with the state and are not endangering living citizens...and frozen patients for the matter.

#58 eternaltraveler

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 02:34 PM

You better not say that it's okay to dump that crap down the drain....

People dump blood and chemicals down the drain in the majority of homes in America. I really can't get that worked up over these allegations without knowing if they are true, for one thing, and the nature of the chemicals involved and volume of blood involved. Even if the volume of blood was large, so what? It's a sewer. Think about what else is in there.


seriously? things you pour down the drain end up in your water system.... I'm sorry, but you are a fool to think that this is not an issue... Again, I'm not bashing cryonics...I think it's amazing, but Alcor needs to get their act together if they want to continue on. What they are doing in dangerous.

...and you do know that they are pouring down the drain- human contaminated blood and cryopreservation fluids, the drugs that have been pumped into the body, etc.... my point is that not even funeral homes just pour stuff down the drain- and they also dispose of blood and chemicals. There are REGULTAED!! That's they key here. Alcor needs regulation, but everyone is so afraid to breathe this word in fear of it being shut down! Maybe it should, and the patients should be sent to CI where they comply with the state and are not endangering living citizens...and frozen patients for the matter.


Do you have any evidence for these allegations besides this fictitious book?

I spent six months at alcor as we rented lab space from them about a year ago. At that time what I saw of their operations were entirely professional

#59 six

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 02:44 PM

You better not say that it's okay to dump that crap down the drain....

People dump blood and chemicals down the drain in the majority of homes in America. I really can't get that worked up over these allegations without knowing if they are true, for one thing, and the nature of the chemicals involved and volume of blood involved. Even if the volume of blood was large, so what? It's a sewer. Think about what else is in there.


seriously? things you pour down the drain end up in your water system.... I'm sorry, but you are a fool to think that this is not an issue... Again, I'm not bashing cryonics...I think it's amazing, but Alcor needs to get their act together if they want to continue on. What they are doing in dangerous.

...and you do know that they are pouring down the drain- human contaminated blood and cryopreservation fluids, the drugs that have been pumped into the body, etc.... my point is that not even funeral homes just pour stuff down the drain- and they also dispose of blood and chemicals. There are REGULTAED!! That's they key here. Alcor needs regulation, but everyone is so afraid to breathe this word in fear of it being shut down! Maybe it should, and the patients should be sent to CI where they comply with the state and are not endangering living citizens...and frozen patients for the matter.


Do you have any evidence for these allegations besides this fictitious book?

I spent six months at alcor as we rented lab space from them about a year ago. At that time what I saw of their operations were entirely professional


so where did they dispose of the chemicals and blood?? just tell me you witnessed them doing it properly and I will no longer continue try and contradict you.

#60 eternaltraveler

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Posted 15 October 2009 - 03:03 PM

I believe they did that properly but I'm not going to say I witnessed it as I don't recall. There were only a few suspensions while I was there and I cant really get in to any of it as I did sign an NDA. I'm sure there will be more official statements forthcoming. One think to keep in mind as too why they aren't moving more quickly is the supposed events happened quite a few years ago and present management etc needs time to go through material from that time. It would be foolish to make hasty statements when minor misstatements could be taken as proof of misdeeds. They need to make sure they can back up everything they say




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