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Separate supplementation regimen - Feedback?


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#31 nameless

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:42 AM

The folate problem is that unmetabolized folate can be a problem in the body. And the RDA for folic acid is actually 200mcg, not 400mcg, which is commonly used. 400mcg is for folate from food.

AOR plans to change their multis so they no longer use folic acid, but 5-MTHF instead. But they seem to be taking their time with the conversion over...

That orange triad multi is... eh. At a very partial dose the vitamins are sort of okay, but then the minerals are out of whack. And no idea about the brand, how reliable it is, and the extras sort of do it in too. Do you really need a joint and flex complex, in your multi, at 19 years old?

#32 shazam

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 08:19 AM

The folate problem is that unmetabolized folate can be a problem in the body. And the RDA for folic acid is actually 200mcg, not 400mcg, which is commonly used. 400mcg is for folate from food.

AOR plans to change their multis so they no longer use folic acid, but 5-MTHF instead. But they seem to be taking their time with the conversion over...

That orange triad multi is... eh. At a very partial dose the vitamins are sort of okay, but then the minerals are out of whack. And no idea about the brand, how reliable it is, and the extras sort of do it in too. Do you really need a joint and flex complex, in your multi, at 19 years old?



Not likely, even though I run and plan on running alot. I wanna start doing marathons in 2 or 4 years depending on how quickly I can get my finances handled better and get my fitness level up a bit.

Hell, the joint complex in it isn't even that great, I was just curious to see if I was overly critical or what. That's kinda why I made my stack in the first place. If my supplements of choice in the stack were lower dose, they'd be freakin' ideal. Kinda funny, huh? They got alot of stuff right, but not the serving sizes.

Didn't know that about folic acid, though looking back I remember reading it. If that's the case, then there's ALOT of vitamins out there that have mislabled the RDA. The New Chapter says 'folate', but I guess I may ask their customer service what exactly it is.

Well, I'm thinking going with either this http://www.iherb.com...Tablets/62?at=0 or this http://www.iherb.com...Tablets/92?at=0 depending on my level of cash, maybe eve n 3/4th dosing one of them, and also supplementing with an appropriate level of D, K2 (is k2 overrated?), C, magnesium, maybe calcium, maybe more b12 and b6

On the level of non vitamins/minerals, maybe getting a cheaper fish oil (using max DHA liquid, there was some evidence that a higher dha fish oil will be more anti inflammatory and have better heart benefits, but it's not exactly compelling, just promising, and there's no evidence that a regular fish oil doesn't work just as well), and perhaps some herbal extracts like ginger, green tea, etc, as well as either fruit/veggie powder or actual fruit depending on which is more economical (i suspect it's the first), assuming all this info checks out and isn't just some surface level interpretation of research.

I dunno. While it DOES make sense not to go over the daily value for certain things (folic acid, likely, being one.), I hear some contradictions in this thread. Since I don't have a diet too high in zinc I hear "Yeah if that's true then 30mg is fine" alongside "just partial dose a decent multi and eat fruits and veggies" within 3 replies of each other. My general position on blueberries is "f@#$ that noise." since black beans are a MUCH more economical source of anthocyanins, ESPECIALLY if you drink the broth after cooking them, and what else do blueberries have? Fiber? Sugar? I'm good on that.

Not to mention this multi I'm looking at is sort of diametrically opposed to everything I've built my value comparison though process to stand for. Get less for more money? That makes ALOT of sense. If only the companies I was looking at earlier did their stuff in lower dosages and higher container counts. Ah well, capsules ain't free, eh? It'd be cool if they used tiny softgels and just sold the stuff that could be used as powder in bulk. Or smaller capsules/tablets, I'd be alright with that, too. Cutting the pill works for me. Better formulations, more innovative products, better TESTED absorption vs this whole food shenanigans, and yet the amounts throw it all off, apparantly (still curious as to the logic behind these claims).

I DO wish there was some kind of guide out there explaining why the vast majority of supplements out there use 200 percent or more of various minerals (zinc) and the correct proportions to use it all in. And WHY exactly is copper 'contraversial'? It was my understanding that supplementing zinc without copper is what scientists call "a bad idea", yet I see a ton of people doing it intentionally here.

Heh. These questions are open to anyone, really.

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#33 nameless

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 05:15 PM

This site may help you:
http://lpi.oregonsta...r/vitamins.html

I don't necessarily agree with everything they say, but they are pretty good with most of their data.

I'm not sure there really are contradictions in this thread. You may be safe with 30mg zinc (which is food + supplement total), as it's under the UL, but you may be better off not taking zinc at all. I don't know the exact amounts of vits/minerals you consume. If you are getting close to the RDA for zinc from diet, then consume a partial multi, I wouldn't go any higher.

There are other multis on iHerb you can consider, but it's really difficult to recommend one. Maybe you can find a suitable multi from Now, or Jarrow, that is cheaper, since you have a limited budget. I expect they'll all have flaws too, though.

If you go with MK-7 for K2, you don't have to take it daily, as it has a longish half-life. Alternate days should be fine. And only take mag, cal, etc. if you are deficient, although based on your diet, I suspect you are deficient in several things.

#34 kismet

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 07:34 PM

you're asking the wrong questions. "Show me it's dangerous"... no, you should *know* that the stuff is actually beneficial before popping a pill. Freeze dried fruit powder (which was not included in your regimen if I skimmed it correctly) can hardly replace a good diet (fruit, vegetable, a good source of MUFA, avoidance of unhealthy food, etc). In a perfect world a one in all super-extract could come close or maybe not; we'd need to see actual studies performed - and actual studies have been performed on healthy diets and not on extracts.

This won't work.

Edited by kismet, 27 October 2009 - 07:36 PM.


#35 shazam

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Posted 27 October 2009 - 10:23 PM

you're asking the wrong questions. "Show me it's dangerous"... no, you should *know* that the stuff is actually beneficial before popping a pill. Freeze dried fruit powder (which was not included in your regimen if I skimmed it correctly) can hardly replace a good diet (fruit, vegetable, a good source of MUFA, avoidance of unhealthy food, etc). In a perfect world a one in all super-extract could come close or maybe not; we'd need to see actual studies performed - and actual studies have been performed on healthy diets and not on extracts.

This won't work.


*shrug*. Good reasoning towards the start. I'm curious to know why exactly the companies use such high doses of minerals/vitamins if there aren't any benefits that high, and maybe even some harmful side effects. Cashing in on the psuedoscience seems like one reason, but I'd like to think they have at least some kind of logic about it. Maybe not.

As for FDFP, I'm still looking into it. I don't know what standard they use to claim that 2 grams is an entire fruit. I've heard claims about ORAC before, but I think it may just be the removal of sugar and water, which usually constitutes about 95 percent of the mass. They may also remove most of the fiber and whatever protein is in it, so that's even more weight. I could see a 100 gram fruit being reduced to 2-4 grams via freeze drying, pulverization and removal of certain macronutrients this way.

http://www.nutrition.../content/8/1/43 This is the study I've seen in regards to one type of fruit powder. It shows promise. And of course with other brands I've heard anecdotal claims on other small forums that it helped in lowering someone's cholestrol significantly and general well being, though I'm not sure what other supplements/what dosage they were on. All in all, I don't see any logical reason why a well made, FREEZE DRIED (otherwise the heat will destroy nutrients) fruit powder wouldn't have all the benefits of fruit. It's not an extract of one compound as you see in spices (curcumin). There's not many losses at all, in terms of the important stuff (unless the answer lies in the fructose and water... ;P).

Anyway, I'm gonna start looking into low dosage multis, or low dose seperate supplements. I am sort of curious as to what should be lower dosage and what should be higher dosage (such as vitamin D). If anyone can tell me, it'd be helpful.

Edited by shazam, 27 October 2009 - 10:24 PM.


#36 kismet

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 05:07 PM

*shrug*. Good reasoning towards the start. I'm curious to know why exactly the companies use such high doses of minerals/vitamins if there aren't any benefits that high, and maybe even some harmful side effects. Cashing in on the psuedoscience seems like one reason, but I'd like to think they have at least some kind of logic about it. Maybe not.

Some do have possible benefits, most don't. American bigger-better mentality? I think there's something to it. Additionally "alternative" "health" movements can be very cultish, like the followship of Linus Pauling for instance. No science in the world will change their mind, and supplement manufacturers simply want to cater to such people and those with a similar mentality ($$). More often than that people follow a long refuted idea, like high dose antioxidants; yes, based on preliminary evidence scientists hypothesised they'd be benefical - but this was in the late 90s. The evidence is in, most of them are useless, but the antiquated idea is still a good sell (I mean who has the time to follow the literature all the time?)

Take 300% RDA of everything because our soils are impoverished is a much better sell then "check your diet using cron-o-meter". For myself I can only justify "therapeutic" use of vitamin D (approx 2000 IU), vitamin K2 or K1 and B6, possibly Mg; but others also have some benefits and some risks in some populations.

As already mentioned: a good freeze dried formula (incl. vegetable not just fruit!) might work if it is done right; but for this to work the manufacturer must make assumptions about the best process (which temperature or solvent may destroy which substance? what do we want to extract anyway? is the manufacturer honest to begin with?) and best fruits to choose (unkown imbalances that would not happen with diet? leaving synergies on the table?) - questions which simply cannot be answered right now. Therefore it is rather high-risk, low-reward gambling to bet on such a standalone formula.

Edited by kismet, 28 October 2009 - 05:11 PM.


#37 shazam

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Posted 28 October 2009 - 06:54 PM

As already mentioned: a good freeze dried formula (incl. vegetable not just fruit!) might work if it is done right; but for this to work the manufacturer must make assumptions about the best process (which temperature or solvent may destroy which substance? what do we want to extract anyway? is the manufacturer honest to begin with?) and best fruits to choose (unkown imbalances that would not happen with diet? leaving synergies on the table?) - questions which simply cannot be answered right now. Therefore it is rather high-risk, low-reward gambling to bet on such a standalone formula.

Hmm. See, I'd be getting seperate veggie and fruit formulas. Those questions may be valid. I'll have to look more into the process of manufacturing, but it's pretty much just "take out the water and sugar" from what I've seen. There's not really a whole lot of 'extracting' to do. How they make vegetable powder intrigues me a little, though. I know they're not quite as water based as fruit.

I do have a question about provitamin A carotenes as well; if they're supposedly so bad as supplements, why do we eat them? Are the forms really all that different? I'm talking of course, about the 'natural' ones. What's the difference between a D. Salina derived beta carotene and just eating some Spirulina every day? Do they refine the beta much more than we're lead to believe, or is it just isolated from the algae? I do not see that mattering in the long run anyway; if they didn't do it, your body would. And if those results in those 2 studies weren't just from using synthetic, then what difference is a food going to make?

Oh, and why no b12? I've heard that b12 typically has low bioavailability (even as methyl), and that the doses of b12 in most vits/minerals is actually too LOW.

Edited by Michael, 11 November 2009 - 06:37 PM.
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#38 Michael

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 08:21 PM

Kismet, Nameless, Pycgnogenol:

Gawrsh, you guys make me so proud ... Posted Image

#39 shazam

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 08:27 AM

Well, after letting this sit for a bit and gather information, I've figured out that I need to supplement a few vitamins and not many minerals to meet the RDA on my current diet, most notably vitamin A. I've also learned that yes, the intakes for these were WAY high. I'm thinking the "half dose a good multi" will be a good plan for this purpose. However, I have also sketched up a "dream regimen" of sorts ,that takes all the stuff I found noteworthy and did not find something wrong with in terms of supplemenation. I probably won't be using alot of these, but they're all up for review, in a good way. Tell me what you think and what you'd add/remove and why. Studies are always appreciated.


-The imminst vitamin (when it comes out)

-Cycle of adaptogens (rhodalia, maybe maca, maybe cordyceps)

-Omega 3s, possibly a high DHA one.

-GLA

-Maybe anti glycation stuff once I know WTF it is/ if it's useful.

-Appropriate intake of Vitamin D relative to serum levels

-A probiotic (cycled, maybe every other to third day)

-Strontium, on an empty stomach with nothing else (supports bone density)

-Calcium, enough to meet the RDA. Either citrate or maybe hydroxyapatite if it's actually helpful.

-Creapure

-Beta alanine, maybe.

-MAYBE some freeze dried fruit powder.

-POSSIBLY a beta-glucan supplement for immune purposes, or a mushroom complex, which may work better anyway, since
we're talking about no expenses barred here.

-MAYBE citicholine when I need a quick little mental 'boost'.

-Herbal extracts of certain times. Green tea, maybe ginger.


This covers all the supplements I wouldn't consider 'food' (protein powders, even special ones like whey fraction
and beef plasma protein, which rival colustrum's activity at similar prices and higher protein content.)

Edited by shazam, 10 November 2009 - 08:28 AM.


#40 VesperLynd

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Posted 10 November 2009 - 11:37 PM

Why the GLA?


VL

#41 shazam

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 03:48 AM

shazam - Adaptogens what for? How much fishoil EPA/DHA and why do you want to take it?


Enough to meet 1 gram of DHA a day, increasing to 2 when money is no longer an issue. Since I'm using max dha liquid right now, that's about 644mg of EPA and 282mg of DPA alongside the DHA (haha, off the top of my head even... I probably have spent too much time on this), and when I switch to a standard omega 3 (from now), that'll be about 1.5 grams of EPA with a similar amount of DPA as in the first one. All the benefits of fish oil, I don't think there's any (non money/allergy related) reason NOT to take it, though to take it in excess would be a bad idea.

The adaptogens are just for general energy. I'm going to be a busy guy in the next few months (years, life probably). I'm not very easily stressed or anything (yaaay self actualization), but a little boost never hurt. Plus I will be upping my physical activity significantly, and they may help stave off overtraining. Not really inclined to look up the studies yet, since that is a distant possibility (I'm poor), but it's in my mind. If you happen to know about these things I'd listen, though.

Edited by shazam, 11 November 2009 - 03:55 AM.


#42 shazam

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 03:51 AM

Why the GLA?


VL


General EFA supplementation, and it's anti-inflammatory. This is another one of those things that I haven't done a ton of research on due to the fact that I won't be looking into it until I have the money to do so, but I found it interesting. I won't be getting any of this from my diet, so I've looked at borage oil as the supplement of choice to get it in. However, I do hear that the body makes GLA from lineolic acid, which is easy enough to get in your diet, so it's on the fence.

The thing with the ideal stack is I start wide scoped, then eliminate those that prove unhelpful or counterproductive. Hence why I posted it here ;)

Seemed to work well for my initial vitamin supplementation plan ;P. I wish there was some kind of deadline for the imminst multi... I'm not sure if I'll be seeing it next year or what.

Edited by shazam, 11 November 2009 - 03:53 AM.


#43 shazam

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:08 PM

Yadda yadda


Ay. AY! Take it outside fellas.

#44 Michael

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Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:46 PM

Referring to debate on the relative benefits of statins and aspirin vs. vitamin B6 and other supplements between Kismet and pamojja:

Yadda yadda

Ay. AY! Take it outside fellas.

Done.

#45 shazam

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 04:48 PM

Referring to debate on the relative benefits of statins and aspirin vs. vitamin B6 and other supplements between Kismet and pamojja:

Yadda yadda

Ay. AY! Take it outside fellas.

Done.

Thanks for removing my topic's tumor =P

On the subject of probiotics, what's one that everybody's had a good experience with?

#46 nameless

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 05:41 PM

On the subject of probiotics, what's one that everybody's had a good experience with?


For OTC, I like Culturelle. It has a well studied strain of bacteria.
If you can get a prescription and have insurance, I like VSL #3 DS. But if taken for general health reasons, only take a baby dose -- like one packet per week or two. It really depends why you want a probiotic... you can take more if you have stomach problems.

#47 kismet

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 07:33 PM

Which study do you based the dose on? There must be some clinically relevant benefits that people are after? (and I think excessive supplementation is in part based on a misreading of JELIS) Recently I've decided to considerably cut down on fish oil. A good diet and some ALA may be the way to go...

Edited by kismet, 12 November 2009 - 07:36 PM.


#48 nameless

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 07:42 PM

Which study do you based the dose on? There must be some clinically relevant benefits that people are after? (and I think excessive supplementation is in part based on a misreading of JELIS) Recently I've decided to considerably cut down on fish oil. A good diet and some ALA may be the way to go...

What do you think of ALA and prostate cancer risk? Data so far appears contradictory somewhat.

As for DHA, optimal dosage appears to be somewhere between 200mg-1600mg, so I wouldn't go up to 2 grams of DHA only. A mixed EPA/DHA may be better, at a smaller dose.

http://www.futurepun...ves/006499.html

Edited by nameless, 12 November 2009 - 07:44 PM.


#49 Sillewater

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 04:53 PM

Which study do you based the dose on? There must be some clinically relevant benefits that people are after? (and I think excessive supplementation is in part based on a misreading of JELIS) Recently I've decided to considerably cut down on fish oil. A good diet and some ALA may be the way to go...


I have decided to do the same. MR convinced me with his posts.

#50 kismet

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 12:26 AM

Which study do you based the dose on? There must be some clinically relevant benefits that people are after? (and I think excessive supplementation is in part based on a misreading of JELIS) Recently I've decided to considerably cut down on fish oil. A good diet and some ALA may be the way to go...


I have decided to do the same. MR convinced me with his posts.

What about the evidence on egg consumption?  :)

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#51 Sillewater

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 02:24 AM

Well, I decreased my egg intake before I encountered MR's threads (it was getting boring) and it seemed to make me lethargic throughout the day. Right now I eat 1 egg yolk a day soft-boiled. His reasoning is very convincing, but there's a lot of research showing benefits of eggs, and its an easy source of undamaged cholesterol.




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