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Magnesium


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Poll: Magnesium (55 member(s) have cast votes)

Magnesium

  1. yes (51 votes [92.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 92.73%

  2. no (4 votes [7.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.27%

Vote

#1 ajnast4r

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 01:22 AM


Magnesium

#2 ajnast4r

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 02:13 AM

my suggestion is 200mg, 50% DRI as albion glycinate

Edited by ajnast4r, 29 October 2009 - 02:14 AM.


#3 rwac

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:07 AM

my suggestion is 200mg, 50% DRI as albion glycinate


The important question is, will it fit ?

#4 ajnast4r

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:18 AM

my suggestion is 200mg, 50% DRI as albion glycinate


The important question is, will it fit ?


depends on how many pills the final products end up being dosed at i guess... probably will even @ 2/day

#5 nameless

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:54 AM

If it fits, I'd like to see a little more even, perhaps 250-300mg, considering some people will take partial doses of the multi. Not sure it will squeeze in though.

#6 sdxl

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 04:56 AM

200 mg elemental Mg from Albion Magnesium Glycinate Chelate comes down to about 1,111 mg. That would take up at least one 00 capsule and likely more depending on the density of the powder.

#7 niner

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 06:27 AM

If it fits, I'd like to see a little more even, perhaps 250-300mg, considering some people will take partial doses of the multi. Not sure it will squeeze in though.

If we don't overdose anything, there won't be much reason to take a partial dose. Magnesium is a problem due to its volume; that's why everyone uses oxide. It's not so much that it's cheap, it's more that it's small. Anyway, 200 mg is reasonable. The RDA is for all sources, not just supplements. People get magnesium from food and also from water. The upper limit on Mg is not all that much, as I recall.

#8 Blue

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 06:31 AM

Magnesium in unique in having an UL that is lower than the RDA. :~

http://lpi.oregonsta...dex.html#safety

#9 rwac

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 06:40 AM

Personally, I'd prefer a lower amount of a more absorbable Magnesium compound as opposed to a larger amount of oxide.

I'd like to get a better estimate of how much I'm actually absorbing ...

#10 1kgcoffee

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 07:37 AM

I prefer malate.

#11 Blue

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 07:47 AM

Not citrate which seems to increase at least aluminium (and maybe other heavy metal) absorption dramatically under certain circumstances (1700% is one figure I have seen). Malate and other weak binders may have similar problems. I would greatly prefer the amino acid chelates which bind relatively tightly to their metals.

#12 maxwatt

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 03:03 PM

Leave it out, put an absorbable form in a separate pill.

#13 Michael

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 07:44 PM

Haven't voted. Despite the hype, Mg glycinate isn't terribly well-absorbed. This review of published studies:

Ranade VV, Somber JC. Bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of magnesium after administration of magnesium salts to humans. Am J Therapeut. 2001 Sep-Oct;8(5):345-57.

... found a % mEq bioavailability of 23.5%, only marginally better than oxide; citrate is at 29.64 (if you're really doing this, make sure you get real, fully-reacted Mg citrate, not 'blends,' 'complexes,' etc), and true aspartate at 41.7.

#14 Blue

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Posted 29 October 2009 - 08:38 PM

Haven't voted. Despite the hype, Mg glycinate isn't terribly well-absorbed. This review of published studies:

Ranade VV, Somber JC. Bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of magnesium after administration of magnesium salts to humans. Am J Therapeut. 2001 Sep-Oct;8(5):345-57.

... found a % mEq bioavailability of 23.5%, only marginally better than oxide; citrate is at 29.64 (if you're really doing this, make sure you get real, fully-reacted Mg citrate, not 'blends,' 'complexes,' etc), and true aspartate at 41.7.

Unlike the other albion amino acid chelates I have not seen a study showing better absorption from magnesium. But the possible increased heavy metal absorption from citrate scares me. What is the evidence for magnesium aspartate?

"Animal models suggest that citrate-containing compounds augment absorption of aluminum from food and tap water, causing aluminum accumulation in bone and brain despite normal renal function. Citrate also enhances lead absorption in animals. We questioned whether use of calcium citrate by women as a calcium supplement causes an increase in aluminum or lead absorption from dietary sources. Changes in 24-hour urine aluminum and lead excretion, plasma aluminum level, and whole blood lead level were assessed in 30 healthy women before and during treatment with calcium citrate (800 mg of elemental calcium per day). During calcium citrate therapy, urinary aluminum excretion and plasma aluminum level increased significantly. In contrast, there were no changes in urine or whole blood lead levels. We conclude that treatment with calcium citrate significantly increases absorption of aluminum from dietary sources. Additional studies are needed to determine whether long-term use of calcium citrate leads to aluminum accumulation and toxicity."
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8091252

Edited by Blue, 29 October 2009 - 08:38 PM.


#15 niner

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 04:22 AM

Here is a later study that finds long term citrate use does not increase total body burden of aluminum.

J Am Coll Nutr. 1996 Feb;15(1):102-6.
The lack of influence of long-term potassium citrate and calcium citrate treatment in total body aluminum burden in patients with functioning kidneys.

Sakhaee K, Ruml L, Padalino P, Haynes S, Pak CY.

University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas 75235-8885, USA.

BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that citrate salts might enhance aluminum (Al) absorption from a normal diet, posing a threat of Al toxicity even in subjects with normal renal function. We have recently reported that in normal subjects and patients with moderate renal failure, short-term treatment with tricalcium dicitrate (Ca3Cit2) does not significantly change urinary and serum Al levels. However, we have not assessed total body Al stores in patients on long-term citrate treatment. OBJECTIVE: The objective of this study was to ascertain body content of Al non-invasively using the increment in serum and urinary Al following the intravenous administration of deferoxamine (DFO) in patients with kidney stones and osteoporotic women undergoing long-term treatment with potassium citrate (K3Cit) or Ca3Cit2, respectively. METHODS: Ten patients with calcium nephrolithiasis and five with osteoporosis who were maintained on potassium citrate (40 mEq/day or more) or calcium citrate 800 mg calcium/day (40 mEq citrate) for 2 to 8 years, respectively, and 16 normal volunteers without a history of regular aluminum-containing antacid use participated in the study. All participants completed the 8 days of study, during which they were maintained on their regular home diet. Urinary Al excretion was measured during a two-day baseline before (Days 5, 6) and for 1 day (Day 7) immediately following a single intravenous dose of DFO (40 mg/kg). Blood for Al was obtained before DFO administration, and at 2, 5 and 24 hours following the start of the infusion. RESULTS: The median 24-hour urinary Al excretion (microgram/day) at baseline versus post-DFO value was 15.9 vs. 44.4 in the normal subjects and 13.3 vs. 35.7 in the patients. These values were all within normal limits and did not change significantly following DFO infusion (p = 0.003 and p = 0.0001, respectively). The median change of 17.1 micrograms/day in urinary Al in the normal subjects was not significantly different from the 18.7 micrograms/day change measured in the patient group (p = 0.30). Similarly, no change in the mean serum Al was detected at any time following the DFO infusion, either in the patient or control group (patients 4.1 to 4.3 ng/ml, controls 7.4 to 4.6 ng/ml). CONCLUSION: The results suggest that abnormal total body retention of Al does not occur during long-term citrate treatment in patients with functioning kidneys.

PMID: 8632109



#16 ajnast4r

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:13 AM

Haven't voted. Despite the hype, Mg glycinate isn't terribly well-absorbed. This review of published studies:

Ranade VV, Somber JC. Bioavailability and pharmacokinetics of magnesium after administration of magnesium salts to humans. Am J Therapeut. 2001 Sep-Oct;8(5):345-57.

... found a % mEq bioavailability of 23.5%, only marginally better than oxide; citrate is at 29.64 (if you're really doing this, make sure you get real, fully-reacted Mg citrate, not 'blends,' 'complexes,' etc), and true aspartate at 41.7.


interesting i hadnt seen that.. albion cites a study claiming superior bioavailability but its unpublished.

aspartate would be the clear choice here.

#17 nameless

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 05:25 AM

The heavy metal thing about citrates worry me a little too. When studies are mixed like that, I usually just avoid the supplement to be safe.

If Albion has unpublished data, maybe email them and ask for a copy? Maybe explain the project and that an Albion is being considered, and you just need more info.

#18 ajnast4r

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 06:10 AM

If Albion has unpublished data, maybe email them and ask for a copy? Maybe explain the project and that an Albion is being considered, and you just need more info.


good idea. i've already contacted them about something else today, when i hear back ill ask for it.

#19 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 09:30 PM

I still like magnesium glycinate, despite potentially slightly inferior bioavailability to the salts, simply because you can count on it not to interfere with the absorption of the other minerals in the formula (or in your actual food), which I tend to worry about with these multimineral products.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 30 October 2009 - 09:30 PM.


#20 rwac

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 09:36 PM

interesting i hadnt seen that.. albion cites a study claiming superior bioavailability but its unpublished.

aspartate would be the clear choice here.


Aspartate is a bad idea. I have trouble sleeping when I take ZMA (Zinc monomethionine aspartate and Magnesium Aspartate).
Somebody on M&M had the same issue.

I'm sure more people are sensitive to aspartate.

#21 ajnast4r

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 11:04 PM

I'm sure more people are sensitive to aspartate.


makes sense as aspartate is an excitatory neurotransmitter

#22 nameless

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 05:22 AM

I remember reading in some study (which I realize is a useless comment without the actual study link), that magnesium lactate was one of the best absorbed magnesiums. It's just really uncommon to find, no multis use it, and only like one manufacturer I know of even sells it.

Anyone ever see any studies testing it against other magnesiums? If my memory is correct, I thought it was in the 40% range.

Edit: And here is that mag lactate study:
http://www.cmellc.co...es/g020208.html

Edited by nameless, 31 October 2009 - 05:44 AM.


#23 waldemar

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 09:46 PM

Ideas:
1) Put Magnesium and Calcium into a seperate pill to save space.
2) Use forms that also contain an other nutrient, like -ascorbate.
3) Don't use the form thats most bioavailable per mg Mg, but per mg total substance. ;-)
4) Is it possible to increase the bioavailability of Magnesium/Calcium with other substances?

#24 niner

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 11:54 PM

4) Is it possible to increase the bioavailability of Magnesium/Calcium with other substances?

Maybe, but it might increase the bioavailability of other things as well, including things that you didn't want to be absorbing. For safety's sake it would be better to not go this route.

#25 eternaltraveler

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:45 PM

I agree highly with number 1. If you want this to be something reasonable to take for others besides the most dedicated supplement takers minimizing the number of pills should be a concern

Ideas:
1) Put Magnesium and Calcium into a seperate pill to save space.
2) Use forms that also contain an other nutrient, like -ascorbate.
3) Don't use the form thats most bioavailable per mg Mg, but per mg total substance. ;-)
4) Is it possible to increase the bioavailability of Magnesium/Calcium with other substances?



#26 rwac

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 04:53 PM

I agree highly with number 1. If you want this to be something reasonable to take for others besides the most dedicated supplement takers minimizing the number of pills should be a concern

Ideas:
1) Put Magnesium and Calcium into a seperate pill to save space.


You're assuming that the multi will even have Calcium, which is kinda unlikely, really.

Edited by rwac, 04 November 2009 - 04:53 PM.


#27 shazam

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Posted 05 November 2009 - 05:20 AM

I agree highly with number 1. If you want this to be something reasonable to take for others besides the most dedicated supplement takers minimizing the number of pills should be a concern

Ideas:
1) Put Magnesium and Calcium into a seperate pill to save space.


You're assuming that the multi will even have Calcium, which is kinda unlikely, really.


IN GIANT FAVOR OF EITHER OF THESE IDEAS: removing calcium, or seperating it from magnesium. If you do include calcium, keep it with the synergists, ie: K2, D (if you add it) and away from vitamin C.

In fact, I think that each pill should have its own serving info if you're gonna make it a multi 'pack'. Full serving info on the package (if you cut out packaging to save expenses further me love you long time), piece of paper (make it copy paper for all I care) on the inside detailing the pills' nutrition info.

As for the form to use... albion glycinate seems to be one of the better choices out there. I am suprised nobody has tried to make a special form of magnesium yet. It's one of the more in demand out there.

Edited by shazam, 05 November 2009 - 05:22 AM.


#28 pycnogenol

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Posted 09 November 2009 - 11:45 PM

Yes. Magnesium glycinate, 360 mg per day.

#29 OneScrewLoose

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 04:03 AM

Yes. Magnesium glycinate, 360 mg per day.


Do you have any idea how huge that is? That's almost two 00 pills. Like eternal said, size should be a concern. I think the market would best be, not your average joe, and not your hardcore supplement-taker, but the people in between. This would encompass bodybuilders, nature-loving people who have some understanding of nutrition and buy everything organic, people who shop at health stores, people who go through different nutrition fads, people who read sites like Consumer Reports Health (sites that go into the basics without much detail), and so on. If we try to make it for the average joe, it would have to be in one pill, cheap, and available at your local supermarket, defeating the whole purpose of this project. If you make it for the hardcore types like us, there will be virtually no market. The in-between should be the target. That being said, it should probably be about 2 pills. This would exclude magnesium. And why should it be included? Magnesium is best taken at night on an empty stomach, and this would probably be taken with meals. Besides, a good portion of this market probably already knows about the benefits of supplementing magnesium, so it's not necessary. The most you could include in 2 pills, and still have room for everything else, is probably 50mg of glycinate. There's just no point in that.

#30 scottl

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 09:13 PM

Magnesium is best taken at night on an empty stomach,



Because?




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