25 replies to this topic

[JLL]

According to routine health checkups there's nothing wrong with my posture, but I've been told that the curves in my spine (http://www.spineuniv...rticle1022.html) are perhaps more pronounced than the average. This means that even though my BMI is only 18.5 and body fat is low, from a side angle it sometimes makes it look like I might have beer belly or something.

I'm thinking that I could affect this with some strength exercises -- maybe not the curvature of the spine itself, but at least training the muscles that are related to the issue -- but I'm not sure which ones would be best. Hopefully something that doesn't require eating 5,000 kcal per day and putting on huge amounts of weight. Any ideas?

[platypus]

According to routine health checkups there's nothing wrong with my posture, but I've been told that the curves in my spine (http://www.spineuniv...rticle1022.html) are perhaps more pronounced than the average. This means that even though my BMI is only 18.5 and body fat is low, from a side angle it sometimes makes it look like I might have beer belly or something.

I'm thinking that I could affect this with some strength exercises -- maybe not the curvature of the spine itself, but at least training the muscles that are related to the issue -- but I'm not sure which ones would be best. Hopefully something that doesn't require eating 5,000 kcal per day and putting on huge amounts of weight. Any ideas?

Yoga is probably your best bet for posture and training of all back muscles, choose an athletic style like Ashtanga Vinyasa or Power Yoga.

[tunt01]

compound movements. pushups, squats. jogging/speed walking alone will strengthen your spine (vibrations trigger osteogenesis).

search around for the term "core body workout". i also spoke w/ a doc several years ago about spine/posture strength and he recommended yoga.

[nowayout]

I don't think yoga is good for these purposes. Yoga increases laxity of ligaments and passive support tissues and increases range of motion at the expense of stability, which will probably not improve posture and may increase your propensity for spine injury. The passive support tissues in your spine are probably already too lax, given your description, and yoga would probably just make this worse.

For your purposes, training the stabilizer muscles would probably be better. A good approach can be found in Stuart McGill's books, which you can search for on Amazon.

[platypus]

I don't think yoga is good for these purposes. Yoga increases laxity of ligaments and passive support tissues and increases range of motion at the expense of stability, which will probably not improve posture and may increase your propensity for spine injury. The passive support tissues in your spine are probably already too lax, given your description, and yoga would probably just make this worse.

Yoga does not do that, unless you're doing it wrong. Of course, sometimes beginners won't know they're doing it wrong until it's too late.

[nowayout]

I don't think yoga is good for these purposes. Yoga increases laxity of ligaments and passive support tissues and increases range of motion at the expense of stability, which will probably not improve posture and may increase your propensity for spine injury. The passive support tissues in your spine are probably already too lax, given your description, and yoga would probably just make this worse.

Yoga does not do that, unless you're doing it wrong. Of course, sometimes beginners won't know they're doing it wrong until it's too late.

From Stuart McGill: "Ultimate back fitness and performance":

Longitudinal studies have shown that the more flexibility one has in the back, the greater the risk is of having future back troubles.

Flexion and rotational stretching overloads the annulus fibers often exacerbating the spinal tissues which can occur unbeknownst to the individual. Yet they continue the practice, reporting that it "feels good". ... Generally they are ensuring that they remain chronic and will not make advances until stretching is stopped! Solomonov's group (2003) have shown that static stretching of the spine ligaments can cause muscle spasms and diminishes the stretch reflex. The reflex is a protective mechanism!

Do some mobilizing exercise approaches such as "yoga" or "pilates" work? They help some and hurt others. Flexibility without strength and motor control is useless.

Kinesiologists who specialize in spine issues do not agree on everything, but they all seem to agree on the principle of strengthening stabilizer muscles and grooving motor patterns that will keep the spine in a neutral position before increasing flexibility, if at all, and even then, they tend to emphasize active flexibility with stable motion, as opposed to the kind of passive flexibility at the end of the range of motion emphasized by yoga. In the case of the spine, tightness of the passive tissues protect the back, and making them lax facilitates injury.

I'm sure yoga helps some people, but I still don't think the OP is presenting with the kind of problem that yoga would be much help for.

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 November 2009 - 06:13 PM.

[platypus]

From Stuart McGill: "Ultimate back fitness and performance":

Longitudinal studies have shown that the more flexibility one has in the back, the greater the risk is of having future back troubles.

So were any yogis included in that study? I readily believe flexibility without strength is dangerous but yogis can have astoundingly strong back and core muscles. The only people who seem functionally stronger to me are practising gymnasts.

Do some mobilizing exercise approaches such as "yoga" or "pilates" work? They help some and hurt others. Flexibility without strength and motor control is useless.

Advanced yoga requires and develops incredible strength and motor control. How else people could practise advanced hand-balances and backbends for example?

Kinesiologists who specialize in spine issues do not agree of everything, but they all seem to agree on the principle of strengthening stabilizer muscles and grooving motor patterns that will keep the spine in a neutral position before increasing flexibility, if at all, and even then, they tend to emphasize active flexibility with stable motion, as opposed to the kind of passive flexibility at the end of the range of motion emphasized by yoga. In the case of the spine, tightness of the passive tissues protect the back, and making them lax facilitates injury.

I'm not sure which kind of yoga you're referring to but dynamic yoga styles develop strength and motor control together with flexibility. Are you referring to hatha-yoga for old ladies or something similar?

I'm sure yoga helps some people, but I still don't think the OP is presenting with the kind of problem that yoga would be much help for.

I cannot comment on that, except that people with moderate postural or back problems very often get better with yoga-practise.

[nowayout]

From Stuart McGill: "Ultimate back fitness and performance":

Longitudinal studies have shown that the more flexibility one has in the back, the greater the risk is of having future back troubles.

So were any yogis included in that study? I readily believe flexibility without strength is dangerous but yogis can have astoundingly strong back and core muscles. The only people who seem functionally stronger to me are practising gymnasts.

No, the studies were for "normal" people. Of course, there is yoga and there is yoga, and the good practitioners are probably compensating for the laxness of the passive stabilizing tissues with muscle strength and exceptional motor control. I still do not think end of range stretching does them any favors with regards to joint stability, though.

Probably these yogis are also pre-qualified for yoga by genetic reasons, and there is selection going on in the sense that individuals who do not thrive on yoga will not reach that stage.

It is well-known that gymnasts and dancers who naturally have the loosest joints are the most prone to injury, so their strength cannot quite compensate for their increased flexibility. For this reason, for example, some ballet teachers will not take on students who are too loose to begin with. And back problems are ubiquitous in women's gymnastics.

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 November 2009 - 06:56 PM.

[nowayout]

squats.

Squats, deadlifts, and so on, can be dangerous if the spine curvature is incorrect.

JLL, you really should get the recommendations of a good PT or kinesiologist before embarking on any program.

Take this from someone who seriously messed up his back with the wrong kind of exercise at the wrong time. :(

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 November 2009 - 07:22 PM.

[tunt01]

squats.

Squats, deadlifts, and so on, can be dangerous if the spine curvature is incorrect.

JLL, you really should get the recommendations of a good PT or kinesiologist before embarking on any program.

Take this from someone who seriously messed up his back with the wrong kind of exercise at the wrong time. :(

who says doing anything with bad form/posture is a good idea?

[Shepard]

You mean you have (excessive) anterior pelvic tilt?

Regarding yoga: I would assume most types of yoga would require time spent with the torso locked in isometric contraction? Damn near everything else does. There's your stabilizer work.

Edited by Shepard, 02 November 2009 - 09:35 PM.

[Shepard]

It is well-known that gymnasts and dancers who naturally have the loosest joints are the most prone to injury, so their strength cannot quite compensate for their increased flexibility. For this reason, for example, some ballet teachers will not take on students who are too loose to begin with. And back problems are ubiquitous in women's gymnastics.

There's a difference between loose joints and range of motion about a joint.

Don't blame the back issues in gymnastics solely on flexibility. Have you seen the pounding the spine takes in gymnastics?

[JLL]

You mean you have (excessive) anterior pelvic tilt?

Yes, this seems to be accurate.

http://img36.imagesh...pelvictilt2.png

I'd like to go from the left image to the right image.

[Blue]

How about a six pack?

[Myka]

I have read that anything that opens the chest is good for posture (like flyes, etc).

[nowayout]

You mean you have (excessive) anterior pelvic tilt?

Yes, this seems to be accurate.

If this is the problem, there are IMO more efficient and productive ways to correct it than yoga.

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 November 2009 - 11:17 PM.

[nowayout]

Regarding yoga: I would assume most types of yoga would require time spent with the torso locked in isometric contraction? Damn near everything else does. There's your stabilizer work.

That isn't what would concern me. If, for example, he has excessive lordosis, poses such as the cobra would probably be counterproductive.

In my opinion he needs a targeted program that addresses his deficits, not an activity that may exacerbate them.

[nowayout]

Don't blame the back issues in gymnastics solely on flexibility.

I wasn't.

However, gymnasts with excess range of motion are more prone to injury.

In female gymnastics back injuries have very much to do with repeatedly stressing the joints at the end of the ranges of motion where passive support and the stretch reflex are crucial in joint protection. Stretching too much can make the former too lax and deactivates the latter, setting the athlete up for injury. Yoga is also guilty of some of this, though admittedly the movements are not generally as explosive.

Edited by viveutvivas, 02 November 2009 - 11:32 PM.

[Shepard]

Sure, hypermobility is a concern for any sport. You won't get any argument there.

I've done yoga, but I don't know enough about the different types to continue this discussion. But don't most yoga programs always involve complementary postures? I might could buy the cobra posture helping if it stretches his hip flexors while he's tightening the glutes. Dunno, I still don't necessarily think yoga is the best way to fix the issue. But, I don't think yoga is the best way to fix anything.

Anyway, Cressey says this kind of posture is due to overactive hamstrings, hip flexors, and erectors with inadequate abdominal and glute activation. I'd start there.

Edited by Shepard, 03 November 2009 - 12:08 AM.

[nowayout]

Anyway, Cressey says this kind of posture is due to overactive hamstrings, hip flexors, and erectors with inadequate abdominal and glute activation. I'd start there.

Yes.

For the OP, see http://ericcressey.com and particularly, the series
http://ericcressey.c...k-savers-part-1
http://ericcressey.c...k-savers-part-2
http://ericcressey.c...k-savers-part-3

He also has DVDs http://www.assessandcorrect.com/ that might be helpful, but that I have not seen (a little expensive).

Edited by viveutvivas, 03 November 2009 - 12:43 AM.

[JLL]

Thanks for the links and comments.

Bear in mind that I don't know all that much about exercise. The interview seeemed to concentrate on people with back pain (which I don't have, at least not yet) and went a bit over my head.

If we assume I have inadequate abdominal and glute activation and all that other stuff, can you suggest some simple exercises that would counteract this and exercises I should avoid? Apparently bridges are good -- these I already do, but will start to do more often.

Regarding the sixpack suggestion, my abs are in better shape than the rest of my body, but that doesn't seem to help with this issue much. Also, I don't want huge a prominent sixpack to make the situation look worse.

EDIT: Right, I see there's a million and one exercises for all of these things. I'll start digging into this more. Meanwhile, if you know of specific exercises I should avoid, please let me know.

Edited by JLL, 03 November 2009 - 07:41 AM.

[platypus]

How does this feel?

http://www.corbisima...76-A1F16C2B4A18

[JLL]

I can't really do it.

[exapted]

My suggestion:
Use a balance board to work on stability and coordination during some cable exercises (at first). Before I started powerlifting, I had a trainer who taught me to do some cable exercises with balance boards that were absolutely challenging. They really hit my core and improved my coordination and posture. Then I moved to powerlifting exercises like squats and deadlifts. If I have time soon I'll do my best to describe what I mean. Most of them were lower body exercises with cables. One of them was pushups on a balance board, forcing me to maintain balance between left and right side. That will teach your body to have perfect form once you start doing other exercises.

[fifth]

My suggestion:
Use a balance board to work on stability and coordination during some cable exercises (at first). Before I started powerlifting, I had a trainer who taught me to do some cable exercises with balance boards that were absolutely challenging. They really hit my core and improved my coordination and posture. Then I moved to powerlifting exercises like squats and deadlifts. If I have time soon I'll do my best to describe what I mean. Most of them were lower body exercises with cables. One of them was pushups on a balance board, forcing me to maintain balance between left and right side. That will teach your body to have perfect form once you start doing other exercises.

This balance board idea sounds good. I for one have seemingly "lost" my left side in terms of strength and coordination. Right is just fine but I lead everything with my right and the left just kind of slugs along after it.

Did you ever write up this idea? Perhaps in another thread?


For those that don't know there's Bikram yoga which is based off of 26 movements done in tandem with breathing. It focus's on bone and joint alignment as well as movement patterns such as sitting and bending in correct manners. Haven't found any DVDS that I like but there's a cd disk set on Amazon called "Bikrams beginning yoga class Vol 1." Recently started with it after moving up north away from the Bikram studio I was attending for a short period of time

[kurdishfella]

Bad posture can cause issues with the body and it's caused by anxiety or depression (low motivation) so if you can find a hobby that makes you more confident. Exercises just give temporary posture boost and it is only half of it.