59 replies to this topic

[Teixeira]

You are just saying things...

That´s what this forum is all about.
In a forum like this we can discuss ideas, theories, facts, but not perform experiments or anything like that no matter how frustrating that might be.

[Luna]

You are just saying things...

That´s what this forum is all about.
In a forum like this we can discuss ideas, theories, facts, but not perform experiments or anything like that no matter how frustrating that might be.

It doesn't help if someone says "There is N1 human nature and N2.." and doesn't give any evidence. That makes it pointless.
Why do we trust science experiments and not what people just tell us you asked? Because people don't know what they feel, see or whatever, you can make people believe they feel all sort of things which aren't there.
Science experiments are run in very specific set environments with measuring devices and everything, are usually repeated to be sure and by different labs

You just choose to believe in things without evidence (or you are at least not providing any evidence).
That's why (and please do not extend this sentence to a conversation, it's an off topic example) people here choose not to believe in God, it's based on people saying, yet no evidence. No one sees God, no one sees anything that can be linked to God evidently.
People claim they "feel God" or "everything is linked to God" and they can't give evidence to it, "Well Duh, he's behind the scenes" see, that's not very helping.
About "feeling God", people can feel anything they want, as a kid I been playing with some friends "Imagine games", I could easily feel if as if I had wings, tail, controlling the clouds or whatever", I felt my wings bump into doors when I walked through them, but they never bothered me walking through, they were just a feeling.
We could even play catch with "heat/energy balls" and feel them by heat. You know what, if we weren't looking or focusing on it, we didn't feel a thing. We wanted to feel it so we felt it, I am sure I can still do it with anyone who believes it has a chance to be real. It was fun, but it's not really there.

And if you start come "Oh but you have wings, you felt your metaphysical self.. whatever..!" I will summon my metaphysical dragon and EAT you!

Edited by Luna, 05 January 2010 - 07:18 AM.

[Teixeira]

You are just saying things...

That´s what this forum is all about.
In a forum like this we can discuss ideas, theories, facts, but not perform experiments or anything like that no matter how frustrating that might be.

It doesn't help if someone says "There is N1 human nature and N2.." and doesn't give any evidence. That makes it pointless.
Why do we trust science experiments and not what people just tell us you asked? Because people don't know what they feel, see or whatever, you can make people believe they feel all sort of things which aren't there.
Science experiments are run in very specific set environments with measuring devices and everything, are usually repeated to be sure and by different labs

You just choose to believe in things without evidence (or you are at least not providing any evidence).
That's why (and please do not extend this sentence to a conversation, it's an off topic example) people here choose not to believe in God, it's based on people saying, yet no evidence. No one sees God, no one sees anything that can be linked to God evidently.
People claim they "feel God" or "everything is linked to God" and they can't give evidence to it, "Well Duh, he's behind the scenes" see, that's not very helping.
About "feeling God", people can feel anything they want, as a kid I been playing with some friends "Imagine games", I could easily feel if as if I had wings, tail, controlling the clouds or whatever", I felt my wings bump into doors when I walked through them, but they never bothered me walking through, they were just a feeling.
We could even play catch with "heat/energy balls" and feel them by heat. You know what, if we weren't looking or focusing on it, we didn't feel a thing. We wanted to feel it so we felt it, I am sure I can still do it with anyone who believes it has a chance to be real. It was fun, but it's not really there.

And if you start come "Oh but you have wings, you felt your metaphysical self.. whatever..!" I will summon my metaphysical dragon and EAT you!

"It doesn't help if someone says "There is N1 human nature and N2.." and doesn't give any evidence."

What kind or type of evidence are you talking about? would you give me some details of it?
If it doesn´t help what I say about nature N2, what could help? It´s only information.
What I say about N2 has the intention to inform about something new. If I don´t tell it, nobody will, because nobody knows what is nature N2 (and it´s strange properties).

(That story about the "teixeira under cover" was funny!)

[Luna]

are you reading my posts at all? YOU are the one supposed to describe the evidence.

What you are doing is no different from me saying "There are yellow elephants!".

Sure I said that, but I never saw one, no one ever did! I just SAID it, it doesn't help anyone if I didn't bring evidence of it. Show us N2 or this thread is useless, that's my point.

[modelcadet]

What kind of features can we expect from an immortal body?

Saggy boobs.

[Teixeira]

are you reading my posts at all? YOU are the one supposed to describe the evidence.

What you are doing is no different from me saying "There are yellow elephants!".

Sure I said that, but I never saw one, no one ever did! I just SAID it, it doesn't help anyone if I didn't bring evidence of it. Show us N2 or this thread is useless, that's my point.

Supose you did saw a yellow elephant. You had the garanties that it´s not yellow paint. Ok. How are you going to give us any evidence of your yellow elephant? Sending a photo? How do we know that it is not painted yellow? The only way we had is to see the elephant and confirm that it is not painted yellow. In a post in a Forum you have no way to prove that your elephant is in fact yellow. Even if you send us a document of an institution, we could doubt that document. So, only near the real elephant we could prove his yellow color! I don´t see no other option.
You surely saw my posts were I describe some of the strange properties of nature N2 (if science is affraid to confirm them, what can I do?) But how can I post those evidences in a forum? I see no way.
(Remember the photos of "UFO´s"? They didn´t prove anything and they could be manipulated)

[Teixeira]

What kind of features can we expect from an immortal body?

Saggy boobs.

Can you be more specific?

[modelcadet]

What kind of features can we expect from an immortal body?

Saggy boobs.

Can you be more specific?

UU =>> VV

When even the Sun is not an immortal body, it is really hard to answer this. Therefore, I offer snark.

[Teixeira]

What kind of features can we expect from an immortal body?

Saggy boobs.

Can you be more specific?

UU =>> VV

When even the Sun is not an immortal body, it is really hard to answer this. Therefore, I offer snark.

"the Sun is not an immortal body"
Where did you get that idea? From scientific forecast? They change all the time! Besides there are lots of theories. How do you know what theorie is the right one? (If there is such a thing). Science knows very few things about the future, and by definition, we can never be sure. What can happen in the future? We just don´t know!

[Luna]

What kind of features can we expect from an immortal body?

Saggy boobs.

Can you be more specific?

UU =>> VV

When even the Sun is not an immortal body, it is really hard to answer this. Therefore, I offer snark.

"the Sun is not an immortal body"
Where did you get that idea? From scientific forecast? They change all the time! Besides there are lots of theories. How do you know what theorie is the right one? (If there is such a thing). Science knows very few things about the future, and by definition, we can never be sure. What can happen in the future? We just don´t know!

Cause we observed suns go supernova somewhere over the rainbow?

[Ben Abba]

are you reading my posts at all? YOU are the one supposed to describe the evidence.

What you are doing is no different from me saying "There are yellow elephants!".

Sure I said that, but I never saw one, no one ever did! I just SAID it, it doesn't help anyone if I didn't bring evidence of it. Show us N2 or this thread is useless, that's my point.

Supose you did saw a yellow elephant. You had the garanties that it´s not yellow paint. Ok. How are you going to give us any evidence of your yellow elephant? Sending a photo? How do we know that it is not painted yellow? The only way we had is to see the elephant and confirm that it is not painted yellow. In a post in a Forum you have no way to prove that your elephant is in fact yellow. Even if you send us a document of an institution, we could doubt that document. So, only near the real elephant we could prove his yellow color! I don´t see no other option.
You surely saw my posts were I describe some of the strange properties of nature N2 (if science is affraid to confirm them, what can I do?) But how can I post those evidences in a forum? I see no way.
(Remember the photos of "UFO´s"? They didn´t prove anything and they could be manipulated)

Teixeria is right. Last year we celebrated the 40th anniversay of the most witnessed, the most photographed, and the most video'd event in my lifetime, which had a substantial amount of hard evidence; Neil Armstrong's walk on the moon. Yet last year, TLC and other media outlets showed many programs describing how all of our moon walking videos. photos, and moon rocks were faked; and the Apollo program was a big fraud. Last I heard, there is a growing amount of people who are actually believing these theories.

There is a gentleman out there named "Li Ching Yuen" who, according to the New York Times (and many other publications) which researched this incredible man, found records that proved when he died in 1933 he was 256 years of age. This information does not prove human immortality, but it does prove our modern day beliefs about aging are suspect at best. I can give you many such examples that can prove that "human immortality" is possible, but outside of performing a live dissection in front of 1,000+ scientists of impecible creditiblty of a real immortal, we are simply not going to have absolute proof that "human immortality" is reality.

I recommend we all get together in about 100 years and continue with this discussion. By then, I believe, we will all have more convincing evidence to share with one another.

Be Well!

[modelcadet]

What kind of features can we expect from an immortal body?

Saggy boobs.

Can you be more specific?

UU =>> VV

When even the Sun is not an immortal body, it is really hard to answer this. Therefore, I offer snark.

"the Sun is not an immortal body"
Where did you get that idea? From scientific forecast? They change all the time! Besides there are lots of theories. How do you know what theorie is the right one? (If there is such a thing). Science knows very few things about the future, and by definition, we can never be sure. What can happen in the future? We just don´t know!

I think you misread my post. To clarify; even stars are mortal creatures, so it's really hard to tell what a truly "immortal" system would be like.

[Teixeira]

What kind of features can we expect from an immortal body?

Saggy boobs.

Can you be more specific?

UU =>> VV

When even the Sun is not an immortal body, it is really hard to answer this. Therefore, I offer snark.

"the Sun is not an immortal body"
Where did you get that idea? From scientific forecast? They change all the time! Besides there are lots of theories. How do you know what theorie is the right one? (If there is such a thing). Science knows very few things about the future, and by definition, we can never be sure. What can happen in the future? We just don´t know!

I think you misread my post. To clarify; even stars are mortal creatures, so it's really hard to tell what a truly "immortal" system would be like.

The dynamic of the universe doesn´t mean that human immortality is impossible. We are talking of two absolute different things.

[Teixeira]

Let´s suppose that science can give bio-technology instruments capable of repairing the aging mechanisms. So, science could eventualy produce the "Eternal Youth" dream. But are we talking of immortality? Is it the same thing? Absolutely not! For some reasons:

* Can we be sure that a human body, with the aditional characteristic of living indefinetly, could suport infinite time? What about pshychology? Can it suport it? Sometimes it doesn´t suport 20 or 30 years without some malfunction. What makes us think that human pshychology is prepared to face an infinite amount of time? This is a very serious problem. I see no solution for it. I´ll analise any idea...

* And what about diseases? We can imagine that somewher in the future, science will solve all health problems. Some might consider it an impossibility , but we can consider it a possibility anyway. So, nobody would died of a disease.

* Let´s supose these problems didn´t exist. What about the accidents? Does human nature has the possibility to eliminate the accidents? Absolutely not! Can science give the solution to this problem? I don´t know such solutions. So we have annother serious problem here. But let´s supose somebody is very carefull and had a lot of luck. But what happens is that, as time passes by, the mathematical probabilities of an accident increase every year. So, as time go to infinite, the probability of an accident became equal to 1, which mean, it is absolutely garantee! Here we don´t have a problem we have an impossibility. With an human body it is mathematicaly impossible in an infinite dimension of time, to avoid a mortal accident. Even if it takes 500 or 2000 years.

* So, I came to a conclusion: with a human nature that as the possibility to eliminate all the problems caused by aging, and has no kind of diseases, that nature has a very serious problem with pshychology and the impossibility to survive some mortal accident in the future. Because the probability is note zero, it´s only a matter of time untill that person will have a mortal accident.
So, in this particular situation, immortality is an impossibility, regardless of all the science advances. I don´t know how can we avoid this obstacle. Any idea?

(That´s because problems like these, that this topic discusses the features of a real immortal body)

[N.T.M.]

* So, I came to a conclusion: with a human nature that as the possibility to eliminate all the problems caused by aging, and has no kind of diseases, that nature has a very serious problem with pshychology and the impossibility to survive some mortal accident in the future. Because the probability is note zero, it´s only a matter of time untill that person will have a mortal accident.
So, in this particular situation, immortality is an impossibility, regardless of all the science advances. I don´t know how can we avoid this obstacle. Any idea?

Duplication

[Teixeira]

* So, I came to a conclusion: with a human nature that as the possibility to eliminate all the problems caused by aging, and has no kind of diseases, that nature has a very serious problem with pshychology and the impossibility to survive some mortal accident in the future. Because the probability is note zero, it´s only a matter of time untill that person will have a mortal accident.
So, in this particular situation, immortality is an impossibility, regardless of all the science advances. I don´t know how can we avoid this obstacle. Any idea?

Duplication

Can you be more specific?

[N.T.M.]

* So, I came to a conclusion: with a human nature that as the possibility to eliminate all the problems caused by aging, and has no kind of diseases, that nature has a very serious problem with pshychology and the impossibility to survive some mortal accident in the future. Because the probability is note zero, it´s only a matter of time untill that person will have a mortal accident.
So, in this particular situation, immortality is an impossibility, regardless of all the science advances. I don´t know how can we avoid this obstacle. Any idea?

Duplication

Can you be more specific?

Presumably within the next few centuries we will be able to scan our brains and recreate all of the unique connections which constitute our sentience. Now if we download this information into an inorganic "host" humanoid we could circumvent the problem of inevitable death given enough time by simply creating several copies (ideally interfacing copies) of ourselves.

Once one dies you create another to compensate for your attrition.

[Kolos]

At some point it should be possible to create 100% nanobotic bodies.
But to be honest I think role of the "real world" would become quite marginal with development of Virtual Reality. There will be little reasons to live in "real" world when we can create almost anything without thinking about materials or laws of physics, we could create whole universes based on whatever laws we like. Of course some scientific reserch programs related with non-virtual reality would probably continue, computer networks would have to be maintained and protected and no one would force people to "live in the machine", it's just there will be no point in living like we are today, there are far too many limitations even if you eliminate (most of) the risks.

[Luna]

Yeah, virtual reality is offering a lot. But if everyone is in the machine, who will prevent the stars from dying and the universe of ending? :(

[Kolos]

Yeah, virtual reality is offering a lot. But if everyone is in the machine, who will prevent the stars from dying and the universe of ending? :(

Even if we wouldn't be fully concious at that time our supercomputers might deal with this problems assuming we would be still limited to our universe (and thus dependent from it) or that we wan't to preserve it for some sentimental reasons etc.

How I see it is that only part of humanity would join this network or perhaps networks perhaps 2-3 bilion but people in many 3 world countries wouldn't afford it even if technology was given for free, you need a secured uninterrupted supply of energy which many countries have serious problems with not to mention corruption and some cultural-religious reasons but eventually number of users might grow thanks to charity.
But out of this bilions of people only few will remain fully conscious not to mention smarter after first few hundreds of years, most people would prefer to "melt" in some sort of virtual paradise alone or with milions of others, total control of feelings and emotions is the ultimate drug and such technologies might be used (and developed) seperately from the VR. Only small minority would remain active for longer periods of time either because of some kind of religious/philosophical beliefs or because of their responsibilities etc. some might aim to become the Ultimate Inteligence of our universe. But it's also possible that at some point there will be no former-humans active and only AI will remain but I wouldn't be scared of this possibilty if only our culture remain allive at least in the sense that there will be some continuity. After all after some time AI should replace what were children to us and they would be better adapted to this kind of environment.

[Luna]

I am sorry Kolos but as of the current knowledge, you aren't independent from the universe :/
You need energy to keep going and that energy is from somewhere and if the universe is gone and limited with energy, you're probably too. Hiding in a computer isn't going to change that unless it has infinite energy and some super immortal shield :(

Complicated! fix me

This all applies to robots and AI too.

Edited by Luna, 25 April 2010 - 08:00 PM.

[Kolos]

I am sorry Kolos but as of the current knowledge, you aren't independent from the universe :/

Well currently we are very dependent from our univers at least some part of it but what I mean is there might be some other universes or out there, perhaps with different laws of physics etc. http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Multiverse perhaps we could even create them (our own universe could been purposely created too) there are many reasons for that e.g. we could use them to create computers much faster than it would be possible in our own universe.

Hiding in a computer isn't going to change that unless it has infinite energy and some super immortal shield :(

Even without this technologies that would give as God-like powers "hiding in a computer" would have many advantages to living in some sort of biological body, you need much less to sustain your existence - just energy while biobody needs oxygen, food, water and many other things. You can hide machines deep underground, under tons of concrete, in the ice of antarctic on the asteroids or in the cold emptyness of space but it might be more volnurable from the inside, computer viruses could kill people like black death.

[Teixeira]

* So, I came to a conclusion: with a human nature that as the possibility to eliminate all the problems caused by aging, and has no kind of diseases, that nature has a very serious problem with pshychology and the impossibility to survive some mortal accident in the future. Because the probability is note zero, it´s only a matter of time untill that person will have a mortal accident.
So, in this particular situation, immortality is an impossibility, regardless of all the science advances. I don´t know how can we avoid this obstacle. Any idea?

Duplication

Can you be more specific?

Presumably within the next few centuries we will be able to scan our brains and recreate all of the unique connections which constitute our sentience. Now if we download this information into an inorganic "host" humanoid we could circumvent the problem of inevitable death given enough time by simply creating several copies (ideally interfacing copies) of ourselves.

Once one dies you create another to compensate for your attrition.

Are you talking about computers or men, because you cannot transform one thing into the other...

[Teixeira]

Let me tell you something, if you want an immortal life, it is not enought to find an immortal body, you need to find an endless happiness, otherwise, you will make suicide. By the simple reason that we are dealing with eternity and not an enormous amount of time. Did you get my idea?
(True happiness can never come from technology).

[Luna]

Let me tell you something, if you want an immortal life, it is not enought to find an immortal body, you need to find an endless happiness, otherwise, you will make suicide. By the simple reason that we are dealing with eternity and not an enormous amount of time. Did you get my idea?
(True happiness can never come from technology).

How about subject yourself to electrode implant and see what you have to say after that! AMAZINGLY ENOUGH, happiness is simply some chemistry process.

[chris w]

There is a gentleman out there named "Li Ching Yuen" who, according to the New York Times (and many other publications) which researched this incredible man, found records that proved when he died in 1933 he was 256 years of age. This information does not prove human immortality, but it does prove our modern day beliefs about aging are suspect at best. I can give you many such examples that can prove that "human immortality" is possible, but outside of performing a live dissection in front of 1,000+ scientists of impecible creditiblty of a real immortal, we are simply not going to have absolute proof that "human immortality" is reality.

And this "Li Ching Yuen" had a birth certificate dating back to China of the year 1677 or some other legitimate way of proving his age ? Common. Did he meditate his cells into not turning cancerous for two hundred years ? Don't you think that if this was possible we would have a lot more wise magical kung fu masters ( like Pai Mei of Kill Bill ) hanging around for centuries ?

Edited by chris w, 08 May 2010 - 09:39 PM.

[chris w]

And this "Li Ching Yuen" had a birth certificate dating back to China of the year 1677 or some other legitimate way of proving his age ? Common. Did he meditate his cells into not turning cancerous for two hundred years ? Don't you think that if this was possible we would have a lot more wise magical kung fu masters ( like Pai Mei of Kill Bill ) hanging around for centuries ?

Edited by chris w, 08 May 2010 - 10:02 PM.

[chris w]

Sorry for the accidental double

Edited by chris w, 08 May 2010 - 09:40 PM.

[Kolos]

(True happiness can never come from technology).

Is that what your guru said?

[Teixeira]

(True happiness can never come from technology).

Is that what your guru said?

I am my own guru