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Climategate


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#121 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 17 December 2009 - 01:29 PM

Climategate isn't done yet.
(snip -- see above post for content.)


The IEA is an economic research institute without special expertise in climatology.



And there you go again.

Wahhhhh they can't possibly be able to report that a statistical analysis was only reporting 25% of the data points available because what would an economist know about STATISTICS!!! They must be long haired commie pinkos in the pocket of BIG OIL for daring to point out any possible flaws in the perfect science of the Holy Climatologists!

They did not make a comment on the climate. They made a report about the cherry picking of data from a total body of data. You know, picking only those data points which agree with your beliefs? I.E. what you are doing right here in this post?

But of course you probably didn't even read the article, simply saw the words economists and Russia, and immediately jumped to ENEMY OF MY BELIEFS!!!

#122 maxwatt

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 12:04 AM

Climategate isn't done yet.
(snip -- see above post for content.)


The IEA is an economic research institute without special expertise in climatology.



And there you go again.

Wahhhhh they can't possibly be able to report that a statistical analysis was only reporting 25% of the data points available because what would an economist know about STATISTICS!!! They must be long haired commie pinkos in the pocket of BIG OIL for daring to point out any possible flaws in the perfect science of the Holy Climatologists!

They did not make a comment on the climate. They made a report about the cherry picking of data from a total body of data. You know, picking only those data points which agree with your beliefs? I.E. what you are doing right here in this post?

But of course you probably didn't even read the article, simply saw the words economists and Russia, and immediately jumped to ENEMY OF MY BELIEFS!!!


The IEA is scarcely even a legitimate economic institute; it is tightly run by one man, Andrey Nikolayevich Illarionov, a long time climate denier and confident of Vladimir Putin. He analyzes data to provce hat he already believes, or wants others to believe.

No I never said Communist. Russian nationalists, not communists, believe they have a tremendous stake in maintaining or increasing oil consumption, and they have a belief that warming will make Siberia habitable. Their operatives have infiltrated the conservative and libertarian right wing in the US, and are using this front to cast doubt on global warming so that no treaty is achieved and the US and the West remain dependent on oil and gas. As the earth warms, Mother Russia will bloom and the American wheat belt will become an arid desert. The claim that Russia is not warming is BS. The northern ports are ice free longer and longer, the rivers flowing into the Arctic Ocean remain ice free farther into the fall and thaw earlier and earlier, and the frozen peat bogs are melting. Don't believe your lying eyes, believe Andrey. The whole climate gate break-in was engineered by the Russian security services. Take a look HERE. It gives a rough overview of what's going on.

You are a useful tool of the Russians and the Saudis, if you are not indeed one of them. :-D Why else would you be denying the fact of warming with one breath and then claim that it isn't man made with another? There is a logical inconsistency here I feel you must be aware of.

Edited by maxwatt, 18 December 2009 - 12:19 AM.


#123 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 11:14 AM

Climategate isn't done yet.
(snip -- see above post for content.)


The IEA is an economic research institute without special expertise in climatology.



And there you go again.

Wahhhhh they can't possibly be able to report that a statistical analysis was only reporting 25% of the data points available because what would an economist know about STATISTICS!!! They must be long haired commie pinkos in the pocket of BIG OIL for daring to point out any possible flaws in the perfect science of the Holy Climatologists!

They did not make a comment on the climate. They made a report about the cherry picking of data from a total body of data. You know, picking only those data points which agree with your beliefs? I.E. what you are doing right here in this post?

But of course you probably didn't even read the article, simply saw the words economists and Russia, and immediately jumped to ENEMY OF MY BELIEFS!!!


The IEA is scarcely even a legitimate economic institute; it is tightly run by one man, Andrey Nikolayevich Illarionov, a long time climate denier and confident of Vladimir Putin. He analyzes data to provce hat he already believes, or wants others to believe.

No I never said Communist. Russian nationalists, not communists, believe they have a tremendous stake in maintaining or increasing oil consumption, and they have a belief that warming will make Siberia habitable. Their operatives have infiltrated the conservative and libertarian right wing in the US, and are using this front to cast doubt on global warming so that no treaty is achieved and the US and the West remain dependent on oil and gas. As the earth warms, Mother Russia will bloom and the American wheat belt will become an arid desert. The claim that Russia is not warming is BS. The northern ports are ice free longer and longer, the rivers flowing into the Arctic Ocean remain ice free farther into the fall and thaw earlier and earlier, and the frozen peat bogs are melting. Don't believe your lying eyes, believe Andrey. The whole climate gate break-in was engineered by the Russian security services. Take a look HERE. It gives a rough overview of what's going on.

You are a useful tool of the Russians and the Saudis, if you are not indeed one of them. :) Why else would you be denying the fact of warming with one breath and then claim that it isn't man made with another? There is a logical inconsistency here I feel you must be aware of.



Ahh, so now I am THE ENEMY. XDDDDDD

And reread my previous posts. There is evidence that AGW has been greatly exaggerated, and has been for many years prior to this event. IF the russians were behind the leak, all they accomplished was to get further evidence of exaggeration into the public purview.

Warming on the other hand has been taking place since the LAST MILLENNIUM and the end of the Little Ice Age. Since our current temps have not even reached the point that we were at PRIOR to the Little Ice Age, I am unconcerned with AGW and their catastrophic panicmongering. Pollution on the other hand is a VERY REAL DANGER, as POSSIBLY is high levels of carbon.

But runaway warming? Sorry, no. Glaciers melt, Sea levels change, and climate shifts. Has happened all of the history of the Earth. At every turn I have called for a rigorous re-examination of the data under close observation and proper scientific methods. If there is indeed PROOF of AGW then that should not be a problem. At every turn, such examination has been refused by those who BELIEVE!!!!!!!!

But then, I seriously should have realized you'd misrepresent my positions as facilely as you have everyone else's.

You also seemed to have utterly missed the Charlie Daniels Band song reference from Uneasy Rider.

Simply put, your position is akin to that of a clergyman claiming he has PROOF of Gods existence, while denying proper examination to that proof to anyone who is not already convinced.

Edited by valkyrie_ice, 18 December 2009 - 11:17 AM.


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#124 maxwatt

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 11:46 AM

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#125 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 01:13 PM

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I'm expected to accept a chart formed from data which is cherry picked to show ONLY that data which confirms your belief?

Try again.

#126 maxwatt

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 02:16 PM

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I'm expected to accept a chart formed from data which is cherry picked to show ONLY that data which confirms your belief?

Try again.

The meme has spread. The difference is in the second derivative. 95% of the records are from public data unaffected by the alleged (and unproven) impropriety at East Anglia, which has been spun to discredit climate scientists world-wide. But we do not need direct measurement to tell something is going on, there are other indicators.

There can be no doubt things are now warming faster than anytime in the past 2000, perhaps 12,000 years, ever since the northern hemisphere glaciers mostly melted and a warmer regime became the norm. We know from newspaper photographs that trees in New England leaf out a full month sooner than they did in the 1880's. Gardeners know full well that planting zones have moved north as much as 500 miles in places. This is not my belief, this is objective fact. Butterflies in England have already evolve larger torsos for food storage, and bigger wings, to migrate further to survive warmer, drier summers. (I think the species is called the Great Blue, I am going from memory here, but I can find specifics if you insist.)

I find a dissident disconnect in your posts: first denying warming calling it an exaggerated trend, then belittling it on the grounds it is a natural variation. I could accept this, but for the following chain of logic quite apart from measured data points from climate stations: Throughout the last 20 million or so years, ocean levels and glaciation have correlated strongly with CO2 levels. We are producing CO2 sufficient to have more than doubled the percent in the earth's atmosphere since 1850. Odd that is when the little ice age is said to have ended.... (It is now shown that levels began slowly increasing with the advent of widespread agriculture a few thousand years ago, and this may be causally related.)

CO2 traps heat. Absent increased albedo, this will result in more heat being retained. The earth's albedo is not increasing, as it was once thought it might from increased cloud cover over the oceans. That is not occurring. One can calculate approximately how much extra heat the earth is absorbing.

Are you with me? The planet is absorbing more heat-energy, and it is a significant percentage increase from what it was without the extra CO2 we are dumping in the atmosphere through industrial activities. That additional heat has to be affecting the system. It is on top of any natural cycle. Where is the error in the inferences that have led to this "belief" ? This is not a religious or ideological belief, it is a belief in reason and one's ability to deduce objective truth using reason.

Edited by maxwatt, 18 December 2009 - 02:18 PM.


#127 eternaltraveler

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 03:56 PM

Can someone explain how any action short of the voluntary human extinction movement or switching to a nuclear economY could hope to prevent the burning of every last drop of oil. If there is going to be more warming to a significant degree the prudent course is to stop worrying about how to prevent it (If the models are correct; you can't) but plan for it instead. Buy some canadian land and get ready to make a killing when the planting belts move north.

#128 rwac

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:46 PM

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So we've decided to ignore Briffa's reconstruction, have we ?

The meme has spread. The difference is in the second derivative. 95% of the records are from public data unaffected by the alleged (and unproven) impropriety at East Anglia, which has been spun to discredit climate scientists world-wide. But we do not need direct measurement to tell something is going on, there are other indicators.

Briffa's reconstruction actually diverges from the hockey stick and the trend points downward...
Cherry picking calls the entire proxy data and the surface station data into question.

There can be no doubt things are now warming faster than anytime in the past 2000, perhaps 12,000 years, ever since the northern hemisphere glaciers mostly melted and a warmer regime became the norm. We know from newspaper photographs that trees in New England leaf out a full month sooner than they did in the 1880's. Gardeners know full well that planting zones have moved north as much as 500 miles in places. This is not my belief, this is objective fact. Butterflies in England have already evolve larger torsos for food storage, and bigger wings, to migrate further to survive warmer, drier summers. (I think the species is called the Great Blue, I am going from memory here, but I can find specifics if you insist.)


And this winter and the last one have been so cold.
Anecdotal response to anecdotal data.

I find a dissident disconnect in your posts: first denying warming calling it an exaggerated trend, then belittling it on the grounds it is a natural variation. I could accept this, but for the following chain of logic quite apart from measured data points from climate stations: Throughout the last 20 million or so years, ocean levels and glaciation have correlated strongly with CO2 levels. We are producing CO2 sufficient to have more than doubled the percent in the earth's atmosphere since 1850. Odd that is when the little ice age is said to have ended.... (It is now shown that levels began slowly increasing with the advent of widespread agriculture a few thousand years ago, and this may be causally related.)


These are both possibilities. The concept of AGW is flawed if either of those things is true.
CO2 rises after the temperature does. How does that imply causa

CO2 traps heat. Absent increased albedo, this will result in more heat being retained. The earth's albedo is not increasing, as it was once thought it might from increased cloud cover over the oceans. That is not occurring. One can calculate approximately how much extra heat the earth is absorbing.


True. However, the problem of estimating the amount of warming due to CO2 is not simple.
This is done by simulation, and the track record of these simulations is not very good.

... significant percentage increase ....


[citation needed]

Edited by rwac, 18 December 2009 - 04:50 PM.


#129 maxwatt

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:40 PM

Posted Image


So we've decided to ignore Briffa's reconstruction, have we ?

The meme has spread. The difference is in the second derivative. 95% of the records are from public data unaffected by the alleged (and unproven) impropriety at East Anglia, which has been spun to discredit climate scientists world-wide. But we do not need direct measurement to tell something is going on, there are other indicators.

Briffa's reconstruction actually diverges from the hockey stick and the trend points downward...
Cherry picking calls the entire proxy data and the surface station data into question.

There can be no doubt things are now warming faster than anytime in the past 2000, perhaps 12,000 years, ever since the northern hemisphere glaciers mostly melted and a warmer regime became the norm. We know from newspaper photographs that trees in New England leaf out a full month sooner than they did in the 1880's. Gardeners know full well that planting zones have moved north as much as 500 miles in places. This is not my belief, this is objective fact. Butterflies in England have already evolve larger torsos for food storage, and bigger wings, to migrate further to survive warmer, drier summers. (I think the species is called the Great Blue, I am going from memory here, but I can find specifics if you insist.)


And this winter and the last one have been so cold.
Anecdotal response to anecdotal data.

I find a dissident disconnect in your posts: first denying warming calling it an exaggerated trend, then belittling it on the grounds it is a natural variation. I could accept this, but for the following chain of logic quite apart from measured data points from climate stations: Throughout the last 20 million or so years, ocean levels and glaciation have correlated strongly with CO2 levels. We are producing CO2 sufficient to have more than doubled the percent in the earth's atmosphere since 1850. Odd that is when the little ice age is said to have ended.... (It is now shown that levels began slowly increasing with the advent of widespread agriculture a few thousand years ago, and this may be causally related.)


These are both possibilities. The concept of AGW is flawed if either of those things is true.
CO2 rises after the temperature does. How does that imply causa

CO2 traps heat. Absent increased albedo, this will result in more heat being retained. The earth's albedo is not increasing, as it was once thought it might from increased cloud cover over the oceans. That is not occurring. One can calculate approximately how much extra heat the earth is absorbing.


True. However, the problem of estimating the amount of warming due to CO2 is not simple.
This is done by simulation, and the track record of these simulations is not very good.

... significant percentage increase ....


[citation needed]

Problem is not estimating warming on surface -- there could be a disconnect at least in local areas due to such things as local ocean convection. One can estimate the additional amount of heat that must be getting trapped on the planet due to additional CO2. It has to go somewhere, and it will have an effect. There are too many other trends than the stolen data that indicate a warming trend world-wide. It would dull Occam's razor not to attribute it to anthropogenic CO2. Where is the heat? Oceans? Land? Ice caps? one would not expect it to be uniform. One theory has been Europe and North America could get colder due to melting arctic ice reducing salinity of the North Atlantic, thus blocking the flow of warm salty water from the south (Gulf Stream). Ice Age, any one? But this does not seem to be happening either, and a measured increased influx of warm water from the Indian Ocean is thought to be counterbalancing it.

Briffa explained tree growth not being linearly dependent on temperature, so tree rings are not a good proxy past a certain increase in temperature. Such data would not only give us a downward trend now, but would prove there was no medieval warm period. Isotope records contradict that. The "trick" to "hide" the reverse hockeystick if I understand it, was a technique to account for the limited range where tree rings could be used.

And eternaltraveler has said one of the first things that has made sense in this discussion. Buy land in Canada. Ain't nothing we can do to stop CO2 emissions, we can only slow them down a little, and not enough to make a big difference. Ending the West's dependence on autocratic and unstable regimes would be a more immediate motivation, if we could somehow call it a war on something or someone. Whee! it's going to be an interesting ride through the next century. The mayors in Copenhagen are better statesmen than the national government representatives, trading tips on dealing with the situation.

I am hoping a deus ex machina will come out of the blue and change things. My favorite science-fictioney candidate right now is imitating plants' trick; They are now known to use a quantum computing technique of routing electrons in multiple chromophore paths to attain energy conversion efficiencies over 90% by some measures. If this could be improved to generate electricity directly the problem might become sucking too much CO2 our of the atmosphere. Or we could just use vats of bioengineered algae to generate diesel fuel.

#130 cathological

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 04:30 AM

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If this is accurate then why isn't Greenland green now like it was during the little optimum?

#131 Blue

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 09:13 AM

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If this is accurate then why isn't Greenland green now like it was during the little optimum?

Greenland was never "green". That was just a real estate pitch to prospective colonists.

#132 Blue

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 09:19 AM

Climategate isn't done yet.
(snip -- see above post for content.)


The IEA is an economic research institute without special expertise in climatology.



And there you go again.

Wahhhhh they can't possibly be able to report that a statistical analysis was only reporting 25% of the data points available because what would an economist know about STATISTICS!!! They must be long haired commie pinkos in the pocket of BIG OIL for daring to point out any possible flaws in the perfect science of the Holy Climatologists!

They did not make a comment on the climate. They made a report about the cherry picking of data from a total body of data. You know, picking only those data points which agree with your beliefs? I.E. what you are doing right here in this post?

But of course you probably didn't even read the article, simply saw the words economists and Russia, and immediately jumped to ENEMY OF MY BELIEFS!!!


The IEA is scarcely even a legitimate economic institute; it is tightly run by one man, Andrey Nikolayevich Illarionov, a long time climate denier and confident of Vladimir Putin. He analyzes data to provce hat he already believes, or wants others to believe.

No I never said Communist. Russian nationalists, not communists, believe they have a tremendous stake in maintaining or increasing oil consumption, and they have a belief that warming will make Siberia habitable. Their operatives have infiltrated the conservative and libertarian right wing in the US, and are using this front to cast doubt on global warming so that no treaty is achieved and the US and the West remain dependent on oil and gas. As the earth warms, Mother Russia will bloom and the American wheat belt will become an arid desert. The claim that Russia is not warming is BS. The northern ports are ice free longer and longer, the rivers flowing into the Arctic Ocean remain ice free farther into the fall and thaw earlier and earlier, and the frozen peat bogs are melting. Don't believe your lying eyes, believe Andrey. The whole climate gate break-in was engineered by the Russian security services. Take a look HERE. It gives a rough overview of what's going on.

You are a useful tool of the Russians and the Saudis, if you are not indeed one of them. :) Why else would you be denying the fact of warming with one breath and then claim that it isn't man made with another? There is a logical inconsistency here I feel you must be aware of.

Interesting. Also wondered how much of the anti-nuclear power movement is sponsored by the security services of oil dependent dictatorships.

#133 cathological

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 01:54 AM

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If this is accurate then why isn't Greenland green now like it was during the little optimum?

Greenland was never "green". That was just a real estate pitch to prospective colonists.

I've heard otherwise from a reputable source. Although I haven't seen pictures of a bunch of frozen grass or anything like that underneath the ice. I'd be willing to change my mind if you did more than just make an assertion.

#134 maxwatt

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 03:07 AM


If this is accurate then why isn't Greenland green now like it was during the little optimum?

Greenland was never "green". That was just a real estate pitch to prospective colonists.

I've heard otherwise from a reputable source. Although I haven't seen pictures of a bunch of frozen grass or anything like that underneath the ice. I'd be willing to change my mind if you did more than just make an assertion.

The Saga of Eric the Red (Eiríks saga rauða), is a written record of Norse settlement in Greenland and the story of Erik the Red in particular. The Íslendingabók from the 12th century is a historical work dealing with early Icelandic history. Both say "He named the land Greenland, saying that people would be eager to go there if it had a good name."

The climate was warm enough to support growing grains and raising cattle from the time the Greenland colony was founded in the 10th century, until it was abandoned about 500 years later. When the wheat crop repeatedly failed and the cattle died in the 14th century there was nothing to eat. There are written Church records until 1408. The modern Greenlanders are descended from Inuit peoples who came later, in another wave of migration from the northwest. Modern Greenlanders are mostly of Innuit stock, with some intermixing from 19th century Danes. In the past 10 years, for the first time in memory, it has been possible to raise cabbage and other greens outdoors.

#135 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 09:52 AM

By the way... just thought you should know that plants seem to be rather enjoying the climate, rather than being poisoned off by it like you seemed to suggest maxi baby.

http://www.sciencema...t/300/5625/1560

Climate-Driven Increases in Global Terrestrial Net Primary Production from 1982 to 1999
Ramakrishna R. Nemani,1* Charles D. Keeling,2 Hirofumi Hashimoto,1,3 William M. Jolly,1 Stephen C. Piper,2 Compton J. Tucker,4 Ranga B. Myneni,5 Steven W. Running1
Recent climatic changes have enhanced plant growth in northern mid-latitudes and high latitudes. However, a comprehensive analysis of the impact of global climatic changes on vegetation productivity has not before been expressed in the context of variable limiting factors to plant growth. We present a global investigation of vegetation responses to climatic changes by analyzing 18 years (1982 to 1999) of both climatic data and satellite observations of vegetation activity. Our results indicate that global changes in climate have eased several critical climatic constraints to plant growth, such that net primary production increased 6% (3.4 petagrams of carbon over 18 years) globally. The largest increase was in tropical ecosystems. Amazon rain forests accounted for 42% of the global increase in net primary production, owing mainly to decreased cloud cover and the resulting increase in solar radiation.
1 School of Forestry, University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59801, USA.
2 Scripps Institution of Oceanography, University of California, San Diego, CA 92037, USA.
3 Graduate School of Agricultural and Life Sciences, The University of Tokyo, 1-1-1 Yayoi, Bunkyoku, Tokyo 113, Japan.
4 NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD 20771, USA.
5 Department of Geography, Boston University, Boston, MA 02215, USA.


http://www.umt.edu/u...2002/9plant.htm

UM SATELLITE STUDY SHOWS
INCREASED PLANT GROWTH

This image from the Terra satellite shows North American plant growth in late fall 2001.
A NASA-funded study directed by UM finds that changing rainfall patterns over much of the United States in the last century have allowed plants to grow more vigorously and absorb more carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

In the presence of water and sunlight, plants take in carbon dioxide (CO2) during photosynthesis to create fuel, glucose and other sugars, as well as build plant structures. Better understanding of biological and physical processes that contribute to carbon uptake by plants will help scientists predict climate change and future levels of CO2, a heat-trapping gas in the atmosphere.

“The changes in the hydrologic cycle are a mechanism often overlooked in the recent debate over carbon sequestration in the United States,” says Ramakrishna Nemani, a researcher at the UM School of Forestry and lead author of the study, which appeared in an issue of Geophysical Research Letters earlier this year.

Scientists have noticed that the U.S. terrestrial sink, an effect where carbon is drained from the air and stored in the land, has been increasing since the latter part of the 20th century. Previous research has claimed this rise may be due to an observed greening of the United States as a result of forest regrowth, as well as greater concentrations of atmospheric CO2 and warming temperatures.

For the first time, however, this study suggests that changing rainfall patterns may play a bigger role in plant growth and carbon absorption. Computer model results show that on average from 1950 to 1993 higher humidity combined with an 8 percent increase in precipitation has led to a 14 percent increase in plant growth in the United States. Data over that time period also show increases in cloud cover, minimum temperatures, soil moisture and stream flows, all of which are signs of a changing hydrologic cycle.

Whether or not shifting rainfall patterns result in a positive uptake of carbon by land ecosystems depends on complex interactions that include plant physiology and both the magnitude and timing of changes that impact the water cycle.

Between 1950 and 1993, minimum temperatures in the spring generally have become warmer and autumns generally have been wetter, which has combined to lengthen the growing season for plants. A longer growing season means plants pull carbon from the air for a greater period of time. In addition, the magnitude of precipitation on average has gone up in the conterminous United States, except over the Pacific Northwest.

“Most people only think of the idea that more water means more growth, but really plants benefit from more water in a number of ways,” says Steven Running, a UM forestry professor and co-author of the study.

When the air is wetter, plants can open special cells in their leaves without losing much water to the air, increasing CO2 uptake while reducing the amount of water needed to grow. Additionally, wetter soils promote decomposition of dead plant materials, releasing nutrients needed for plant growth. Also, higher humidity in the spring helps maintain higher night temperatures, which makes for more frost-free days and lengthens the growing season.

The authors found that without enhanced rainfall and humidity, CO2 increases and temperature changes have a lesser effect on plant growth.

Greenhouse gases warm the air, and warmer air can hold more water, which impacts the hydrologic cycle. Changes in the cycle may mean more rainfall in some regions and less in other places, affecting plant growth and carbon absorption, which in turn affects future concentrations of greenhouse gases, Nemani says.

The study was funded by the Vegetation Ecosystem Modeling and Analysis Project and the Moderate-resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer science team, which are part of NASA’s Earth Science Enterprise. V


And JoSH is still blogging away and poking holes left and right

http://www.foresight...nanodot/?p=3611

Original Sin
By J. Storrs Hall, on December 20th, 2009
Mike Treder has a post at IEET that reads like a catechism of the Gaian religion. Now I’m a firm supporter of freedom of religion and Mike has a perfect right to believe what he does and indeed to preach it to whomever will listen. (And besides, Mike is a friend of mine.) But in this particular article he takes a backhanded swipe at Foresight, linking to us from this paragraph:

Techno-rapturists among our reading audience might be quick to respond with glib answers about miraculous nanotechnology solutions that are just around the corner, or the promise of a superintelligent friendly AI who can take over everything and solve all our troubles just like Daddy would.

So I feel that it would be appropriate to set the record straight on a few points. First and simplest, the Dead Sea is a completely natural phenomenon — it is dead because it has ten times the salinity of the oceans, and the salinity is from exactly the same reason — rivers run into it, bearing dissolved minerals, but water leaves by evaporation, leaving and thus concentrating the solutes. The idea of using a picture of the Dead Sea to illustrate a paragraph about ocean acidification makes me quite skeptical of the scientific reasoning behind the rest of the article.

Let us suppose that, for example, we had been monitoring the oceanic biosphere by satellite for a decade and over that time the levels of life had fallen by 6%. That would be a clear cause for alarm and one would have to worry about acidification and other deleterious human influences. But in fact the results of such studies show that the opposite is the case. Both in the ocean and on land, plant growth, which is what can be measured directly by satellite, has increased, and this appears largely due to increased CO2 and warming. (After all, we build greenhouses for a reason.)

Mike quotes a Green angst blog that quotes a Green angst opinion piece in Nature as follows:

The Earth has nine biophysical thresholds beyond which it cannot be pushed without disastrous consequences.
Ominously, we have already moved past three of these tipping points.

There is really no scientific basis for this kind of statement. James Hansen, one of the authors of the Nature piece in question, has been making this kind of noise about runaway warming feedbacks for years. But the actual physical greenhouse effect is logarithmic. You have to postulate some completely different positive feedback to talk about “tipping points”, and no such thing has been demonstrated in the real climate system (although there is no lack of them in the computer models). In fact the icecore paleothermometry reconstructions show that there have been fairly rapid rises at the beginning of each interglacial, as if there were a positive feedback operating, but that they stop uniformly when they get to temperatures a little warmer than current, as if there were some very strong negative feedback in that part of the phase space.



Posted Image



Furthermore, there’s not much sign of a positive feedback acceleration in the current temperature record, either:

Posted Image

cubic fit to UAH temp record
(This is a simple least-squares cubic fit to the satellite temperature record (UAH global monthly averages) to date.) For there to be a dominant positive feedback (there are plenty of minor ones), it would have to be something that operates on longer timescales than the PDO/ENSO oscillations (and thus longer current GCMs can model accurately). Regarding which this pithy remark in one of the climategate emails:

Without trying to prejudice this work, but also because of what I
almost think I know to be the case, the results of this study will
show that we can probably say a fair bit about <100 year
extra-tropical NH temperature variability (at least as far as we
believe the proxy estimates), but honestly know fuck-all about what
the >100 year variability was like with any certainty (i.e. we know
with certainty that we know fuck-all).

So, what’s the difference between a Gaian take on Sinners in the Hands of an Angry Earth, and a reasoned scientific stance? One main difference is the degree of certainty which is attached to the statements. Another is the moral coloration given to any human influence. The main reason I object to that is the attempted disguise of the coloration as scientific projections of physical effects. It would be perfectly fine to say, as other religions do, that men are born evil and we should all take vows of poverty because it is harder for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich American to enter the kingdom of heaven.

There are, of course, deleterious effects to human operations and expansion over the Earth’s surface. If we pave over the whole planet, it would be a pretty bad thing. The satellite biosphere inventories show that, indeed, life is contracting in some areas while expanding in others. There are limits to virtually every form of human impact, from emitting CO2 to building suburban homes and mowing the grass. But by and large the effects are proportional to the cause: we do more stuff, things get worse in some regard (polluted waters, for example), the effects are noticed, and the causes are backed off from. But there’s very little reason to believe that we’re sitting in a circle of traps where one false step in any direction will result in certain doom.

Would it be nice to save the Earth as a park and wildlife preserve? I personally happen to think so. Indeed, I live in the remote mountains where I can’t see another human habitation from my windows, putting up with considerable inconvenience to do so because I like the natural environment more than cities or suburbs. But the only way that will happen in a realistic projection, is for the substantial mass of humanity and industry to move into space (or cyberspace or the equivalent). And that will require nanotech.



#136 maxwatt

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 12:29 PM

By the way... just thought you should know that plants seem to be rather enjoying the climate, rather than being poisoned off by it like you seemed to suggest maxi baby.
...(snip, see above)...


Thank you for the food for thought., but you're putting words in my mouth; I never said CO2 will kill off plants. In fact, some, famously including poison ivy, rather like the increased CO2. The weed grows rather more profusely and enthusiastically now than it did even 50 years ago when CO2 levels were lower than they are now. Plant response to different CO2 levels has been tested in controlled greenhouse experiments. It is nice to see Steven W. Running has been able to confirm it in vivio (as it were) with satellite data

I look forward to reading the papers referred to in your post, rather than just scanning them.

Meantime, consider the paper in last weeks Nature: (LINK)

Global change: Interglacial and future sea level p856
A merger of data and modelling using a probabilistic approach indicates that sea level was much higher during the last interglacial than it is now, providing telling clues about future ice-sheet responses to warming.
Peter U. Clark & Peter Huybers
doi:10.1038/462856a


They've made the case that at the height of the last interglacial 127,000 years ago, when CO2 levels were a good bit higher than now, sea levels were some 6 meters higher than currently, requiring a contribution from the Antarctic glaciers as well as Greenland. Co2 levels rose quickly but not as fast as is now happening. Huybers posits warming was due the more eccentric orbit of the earth of that time, and its axial tilt of the northern hemisphere toward the sun in summer, the opposite of current conditions, resulted in hotter summers, warming northern landmasses. They put the earth's average temperature at the time to be only two or three degrees warmer than 20th century levels.

FWIW, the rapid rise in CO2 in past interglacials has elsewhere been attributed to temperature rise and its effect on soils, triggering positive feedback from CO2. Perhaps increased ocean volume provided a carbon sink, perhaps increased plant biomass -- I am speculating on that as a negative feedback mechanism to halt the rise in CO2.

I've no doubt that past interglacials were a little warmer than at present, but only two or three degrees; it seems enough to melt icecaps and raise sea levels some 6 or seven meters. Regardless whether present CO2 rise is anthropogenic or not, it is rising. If you don't like climate data, the measured sea level is also rising consistent with a temperature rise.

The present arrangement of ocean currents, and continents aligned north-to-south, makes the climate exquisitely sensitive to changes in solar input, which have apparently come about in cycles due to cyclic precession of the earth's axis and orbital eccentricity. The difference is the current situation does not appear to be due to any such cause, leaving anthropogenic CO2 as the only plausible explanation. As I understand the present state of knowledge, we will see an increasingly rapid rise in CO2 due to positive feedback from things like melting tundra and burning of all available fossil fuel, before the (as yet poorly understood) negative feedback mechanism that halts CO2 rise kicks in. I do hope it kicks in. The world will have a more temperate climate in the north, and plants will grow more happily and profusely. The fly in the ointment is that ocean levels will be some 6 meters higher.

#137 eternaltraveler

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 04:47 PM

the fly in the ointment is that ocean levels will be some 6 meters higher


So?
they won't be 6 meters higher tomorrow or 100 years from now. Such melting of massive quantities of ice will take centuries at minimum. We can build structures slowly up the hill over the course of generations. This really isn't something we need to worry about. At all.

We have other very real threats to deal with. These distractions lower our probability of survival.

Very few climate scientists back any of the hysterical rantings of the anti climate change movement, they do however fuel them. Attacking climate change hysteria is not anti science. Scientists might vaguely think its a good idea to limit man made change but they don't think in terms of how much things cost. They really don't. Half the academic science supply companies don't even lost prices of what their products cost. Its all paid with grant money anyway. A lot of the stuff is an order of magnitude over priced or more. A clean bench costs 10-50k new. You can build one that works just as well with parts from home depot for 100 bucks. No need to do that though when you can pick up a used one for the same 100 bucks (the used market is pretty non existent as why even bother about price when you aren't spending your money). I bought a used one myself for 100 bucks. Works great.

There is an increasing problem in our society of most everyone being so insulated from reality that they don't even know what it is.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 24 December 2009 - 05:17 PM.


#138 maxwatt

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 07:04 PM

the fly in the ointment is that ocean levels will be some 6 meters higher


So?
they won't be 6 meters higher tomorrow or 100 years from now. Such melting of massive quantities of ice will take centuries at minimum. We can build structures slowly up the hill over the course of generations. This really isn't something we need to worry about. At all.

From Huybers' paper:

According to Kopp et al.3, sea-level rise during the last interglacial was in the range of 6–9 millimetres per year. By comparison, instrumental records indicate that the rate of global sea-level rise over the twentieth century was about 2 mm yr−1. That may have accelerated between 1993 to 2003 to around 3 mm yr−1, at least in part due to an acceleration in mass loss from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets12.

At 3mm a year, that would be 2000 years. Even if the rate accelerates to 9mm a year, it will take 600 years. Future rates are unknown, no doubt the industrialized countries will be able to adapt. A disproportionate number of people live in low lying areas that will be affected in the next century, particularly flooding in storm surges, and most of the large cities will see major impacts over the next century. There will be a dike around lower Manhattan to protect against high tides, already a problem on Water Street in the financial district.

We have other very real threats to deal with. These distractions lower our probability of survival.

Charting possible impacting asteroids and developing measures to deal with them is one such. Our own propensity to shoot ourselves in the head another. Taking measures to ensure a continuing food supply will be important as weather patterns change; some governments are dealing with this. Ending the West's dependence on oil and gas from unfriendly despotic regimes is another.

Very few climate scientists back any of the hysterical rantings of the anti climate change movement, they do however fuel them. Attacking climate change hysteria is not anti science. Scientists might vaguely think its a good idea to limit man made change but they don't think in terms of how much things cost. They really don't. Half the academic science supply companies don't even lost prices of what their products cost. Its all paid with grant money anyway. A lot of the stuff is an order of magnitude over priced or more. A clean bench costs 10-50k new. You can build one that works just as well with parts from home depot for 100 bucks. No need to do that though when you can pick up a used one for the same 100 bucks (the used market is pretty non existent as why even bother about price when you aren't spending your money). I bought a used one myself for 100 bucks. Works great.

There is an increasing problem in our society of most everyone being so insulated from reality that they don't even know what it is.


Well said. Climate change hysteria is similar to that of the anti-nukes kooks who have prevented the construction of new nuclear reactors in the US for some 50 years. The "tipping point" theorists do sound alarmist. There is a remote chance that a sudden collapse of the West Antarctic could trigger a sudden sea level rise of unknown magnitude. Whether this is Chicken Little saying the sky is falling, or a valid cautionary warning we won't know until something happens. Death threats against climate scientists, or hysterical attacks base on inaccurate accounts of stolen email files are not science either.

Nor do I do not see some guy in a garage as likely to come up with an efficient CO2 eating solar cell, or with cold fusion either. Apparently we need guys at $50,000 workbenches. (Sardonically said.)

#139 Blue

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 07:06 PM

the fly in the ointment is that ocean levels will be some 6 meters higher


So?
they won't be 6 meters higher tomorrow or 100 years from now. Such melting of massive quantities of ice will take centuries at minimum. We can build structures slowly up the hill over the course of generations. This really isn't something we need to worry about. At all.

Short-term termal expansion of water may be more important than glacier melting. Does not need very much higher water levels to make many densly populated agricultural regions such as river valleys and deltas immediately above the sea level (as in much of Bangladesh) uninhabitable. Similar agriculture cannot be done higher up on a hillside. That is something will those people will have to worry about now or in a few decades.

Now, that of course do not mean that reducing carbon emissions is the best alternative. I think it is not unlikely that accepting high emissions and rapid industrialization would be a better alternative than slower industrialization. If the agricultural productivity in developing nations such as India would somewhat approach that in developed nations then a very small percent of population working as farmers could on a smaller agricultural area feed all the climate refugees and many others moving away from farming to industry/services. If carbon emissions reductions means slower industrialization and thus lower resources and productivity then this may be a much worse alternative.

#140 eternaltraveler

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 11:03 PM

Short-term termal expansion of water may be more important than glacier melting.


data please.

We've had about a degree of temp rise in the last century. How much higher is the water level?

It's not in dispute that people without means can't readily adapt to any kind of change no matter what it is, and no matter if it is natural or not. The solution is to assist these populations in becoming more adaptable. Not adapting the world to a stagnant state for the sake of the lowest common denominator.

If it's positively determined that temperature rise really is bad we can always pollute the stratosphere with sulfur compounds for a comparatively minuscule cost.

#141 Blue

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 11:39 PM

"Low-lying areas including Bangladesh, Florida, the Maldives and the Netherlands face catastrophic flooding, while, in Britain, large areas of the Norfolk Broads and the Thames estuary are likely to disappear by 2100. In addition, cities including London, Hull and Portsmouth will need new flood defences."

"The International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) - when it presented its most up-to-date report on the likely impact of global warming in 2007 - concluded that sea-level rises of between 20 and 60 centimetres would occur by 2100. These figures were derived from estimates of how much the sea will increase in volume as it heats up, a process called thermal expansion, and from projected increases in run-off water from melting glaciers in the Himalayas and other mountain ranges.But the report contained an important caveat: that its sea-level rise estimate contained very little input from melting ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland... ....land sheets are breaking up faster and far more melt water is being added to the oceans than was previously expected... ...These revisions suggest sea-level rises could easily top a metre by 2100... ...By 2200, they estimate a rise of 1.5 to 3.5m unless we stop the warming. This would spell the end of many of our coastal cities."

"Scientists have calculated that if industrial emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases eventually produce a global temperature increase of around 4C, there is a risk that Greenland's ice covering could melt completely. This could take several hundred years or it might require a couple of thousand. The end result is not in doubt, however. It would add around seven metres to the planet's sea levels."

"The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets represent vast reserves of frozen fresh water. The former would add 7m to sea levels if melted completely; the latter would bring a further 60m rise to the levels of the world's oceans."

"Rising oceans will also contaminate both surface and underground fresh water supplies, worsening the world's existing fresh-water shortage. Underground water sources in Thailand, Israel, China and Vietnam are already experiencing salt-water contamination."

"It is estimated that a one-metre sea-level rise could flood 17% of Bangladesh, one of the world's poorest countries, reducing its rice-farming land by 50% and leaving tens of millions without homes."

"Climate-change research shows there will be significant increases in storms as global temperatures rise. These will produce more intense gales and hurricanes and these, in turn, will produce massive storm surges as they pass over the sea."
http://www.guardian....change-flooding

#142 Blue

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 11:44 PM

There is also the possibility of a catastrophic positive feeback loop. Maybe the risk is small, but the effect would really devastating:
http://en.wikipedia...._gun_hypothesis

#143 eternaltraveler

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 12:45 AM

"Low-lying areas including Bangladesh, Florida, the Maldives and the Netherlands face catastrophic flooding, while, in Britain, large areas of the Norfolk Broads and the Thames estuary are likely to disappear by 2100. In addition, cities including London, Hull and Portsmouth will need new flood defences."

"The International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) - when it presented its most up-to-date report on the likely impact of global warming in 2007 - concluded that sea-level rises of between 20 and 60 centimetres would occur by 2100. These figures were derived from estimates of how much the sea will increase in volume as it heats up, a process called thermal expansion, and from projected increases in run-off water from melting glaciers in the Himalayas and other mountain ranges.But the report contained an important caveat: that its sea-level rise estimate contained very little input from melting ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland... ....land sheets are breaking up faster and far more melt water is being added to the oceans than was previously expected... ...These revisions suggest sea-level rises could easily top a metre by 2100... ...By 2200, they estimate a rise of 1.5 to 3.5m unless we stop the warming. This would spell the end of many of our coastal cities."

"Scientists have calculated that if industrial emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases eventually produce a global temperature increase of around 4C, there is a risk that Greenland's ice covering could melt completely. This could take several hundred years or it might require a couple of thousand. The end result is not in doubt, however. It would add around seven metres to the planet's sea levels."

"The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets represent vast reserves of frozen fresh water. The former would add 7m to sea levels if melted completely; the latter would bring a further 60m rise to the levels of the world's oceans."

"Rising oceans will also contaminate both surface and underground fresh water supplies, worsening the world's existing fresh-water shortage. Underground water sources in Thailand, Israel, China and Vietnam are already experiencing salt-water contamination."

"It is estimated that a one-metre sea-level rise could flood 17% of Bangladesh, one of the world's poorest countries, reducing its rice-farming land by 50% and leaving tens of millions without homes."

"Climate-change research shows there will be significant increases in storms as global temperatures rise. These will produce more intense gales and hurricanes and these, in turn, will produce massive storm surges as they pass over the sea."
http://www.guardian....change-flooding


that is not data. That is the hysteria I referred to earlier from the popular press.

lets look at one of your quotes

"The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets represent vast reserves of frozen fresh water. The former would add 7m to sea levels if melted completely; the latter would bring a further 60m rise to the levels of the world's oceans."


This is hysteria. Neither of these ice sheets are melting any time soon.

I'll give you some data. The greenland ice-sheet is in fact melting, and the most liberal estimation of it's rate of melt puts it at about 235 cubic kilometers a year. That sounds like an awful lot until you consider that the total volume of the ice sheet is approximately 2.85 million cubic kilometers, which means the damn thing will take more than ten thousand years to melt. That isn't even taking into account where most of the melt is coming from (coastal glaciers, not the interior).

The antarctic ice sheets are a whole different animal. The ice gain in Antarctica over the last few decades (as long as we've been measuring effectively) has exceeded ice loss by a ratio of 2:1. Models predict with greater warming this ratio would be skewed even more toward ice gain. Lets keep in mind the average annual temperature in Antarctica is -50 degrees C (-58 F). That ice isn't going anywhere.

"It is estimated that a one-metre sea-level rise could flood 17% of Bangladesh, one of the world's poorest countries, reducing its rice-farming land by 50% and leaving tens of millions without homes."


..... over the course of the next 1-2 thousand years... Hence. it is nothing more than fear mongering propaganda

Edited by eternaltraveler, 25 December 2009 - 12:48 AM.


#144 Blue

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 02:37 AM

"Low-lying areas including Bangladesh, Florida, the Maldives and the Netherlands face catastrophic flooding, while, in Britain, large areas of the Norfolk Broads and the Thames estuary are likely to disappear by 2100. In addition, cities including London, Hull and Portsmouth will need new flood defences."

"The International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) - when it presented its most up-to-date report on the likely impact of global warming in 2007 - concluded that sea-level rises of between 20 and 60 centimetres would occur by 2100. These figures were derived from estimates of how much the sea will increase in volume as it heats up, a process called thermal expansion, and from projected increases in run-off water from melting glaciers in the Himalayas and other mountain ranges.But the report contained an important caveat: that its sea-level rise estimate contained very little input from melting ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland... ....land sheets are breaking up faster and far more melt water is being added to the oceans than was previously expected... ...These revisions suggest sea-level rises could easily top a metre by 2100... ...By 2200, they estimate a rise of 1.5 to 3.5m unless we stop the warming. This would spell the end of many of our coastal cities."

"Scientists have calculated that if industrial emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases eventually produce a global temperature increase of around 4C, there is a risk that Greenland's ice covering could melt completely. This could take several hundred years or it might require a couple of thousand. The end result is not in doubt, however. It would add around seven metres to the planet's sea levels."

"The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets represent vast reserves of frozen fresh water. The former would add 7m to sea levels if melted completely; the latter would bring a further 60m rise to the levels of the world's oceans."

"Rising oceans will also contaminate both surface and underground fresh water supplies, worsening the world's existing fresh-water shortage. Underground water sources in Thailand, Israel, China and Vietnam are already experiencing salt-water contamination."

"It is estimated that a one-metre sea-level rise could flood 17% of Bangladesh, one of the world's poorest countries, reducing its rice-farming land by 50% and leaving tens of millions without homes."

"Climate-change research shows there will be significant increases in storms as global temperatures rise. These will produce more intense gales and hurricanes and these, in turn, will produce massive storm surges as they pass over the sea."
http://www.guardian....change-flooding


that is not data. That is the hysteria I referred to earlier from the popular press.

lets look at one of your quotes

"The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets represent vast reserves of frozen fresh water. The former would add 7m to sea levels if melted completely; the latter would bring a further 60m rise to the levels of the world's oceans."


This is hysteria. Neither of these ice sheets are melting any time soon.

I'll give you some data. The greenland ice-sheet is in fact melting, and the most liberal estimation of it's rate of melt puts it at about 235 cubic kilometers a year. That sounds like an awful lot until you consider that the total volume of the ice sheet is approximately 2.85 million cubic kilometers, which means the damn thing will take more than ten thousand years to melt. That isn't even taking into account where most of the melt is coming from (coastal glaciers, not the interior).

The antarctic ice sheets are a whole different animal. The ice gain in Antarctica over the last few decades (as long as we've been measuring effectively) has exceeded ice loss by a ratio of 2:1. Models predict with greater warming this ratio would be skewed even more toward ice gain. Lets keep in mind the average annual temperature in Antarctica is -50 degrees C (-58 F). That ice isn't going anywhere.

"It is estimated that a one-metre sea-level rise could flood 17% of Bangladesh, one of the world's poorest countries, reducing its rice-farming land by 50% and leaving tens of millions without homes."


..... over the course of the next 1-2 thousand years... Hence. it is nothing more than fear mongering propaganda

A respected newspaper quoting named researchers and published papers trumps totally unsourced claims.

Edited by Blue, 25 December 2009 - 02:41 AM.


#145 maxwatt

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 03:28 AM

Increases in global sea level stem from both expansion of warming water (thermosteric change) and addition of new water from melting ice on land (eustatic change). Predictions of future thermosteric changes are relatively well constrained compared with those of the eustatic change associated with melting of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets4

--Huybers et al.

The volume due to thermostatic expansion is far outweighed by that from melting ice. What is not clear from the geological record of past interglacials is the rate of change of the melting; if it causes a constant three to 9 mm a year adaptation with proper preparation will be an expensive nuisance rather than catastrophic. It is discontinuities, a sudden release of ice into the sea resulting in a rise of perhaps a foot or two at a time that are a greater danger. Though this seems unlikely, it cannot be ruled out. A rise of one or two meters a century as the paper below suggest to have been the case during the last interglacial, would be very expensive to adapt to, but there may be no alternative.

Nature Geoscience 1, 38 - 42 (2008)
Published online: 16 December 2007 | doi:10.1038/ngeo.2007.28

Subject Categories: Palaeoclimate and palaeoceanography | Oceanography

High rates of sea-level rise during the last interglacial period
E. J. Rohling1, K. Grant1, Ch. Hemleben2, M. Siddall3, B. A. A. Hoogakker4, M. Bolshaw1 & M. Kucera2 LINK

#146 eternaltraveler

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 04:25 AM

yes, i suppose i neglected to give my references above for the numbers I threw out. I assumed falsely such figures would be known.

here they are.

greenland ice loss per year based on satellite data http://www.agu.org/p...8GL034816.shtml
greenland and antarctic ice sheets total volume from the us geologic survey http://www.smith.edu...p108USGS_99.pdf

antarctic ice sheet is gaining ice vs loss based on satellite measurements http://www.gsfc.nasa...outhseaice.html
and http://rsta.royalsoc...4/1627.abstract
and http://www.sciencema...bstract/1110662

In regards to models predicting further thickening of antarctica. That's straight from the exalted intergovernmental pannel on climate change
http://www.ipcc.ch/i...dex.php?idp=600

would you like some data on the average antarctic temperature or can you accept its freakin cold? i admit i pulled that from wikipedia :-D

also

A respected newspaper quoting named researchers and published papers trumps totally unsourced claims.


a newspaper is essentially worse than nothing for science information and doesn't trump the babbling of a baboon in my opinion. If these are your sources for data please realize alarmist propaganda does a much better job of selling newspapers than boring objective reality

Edited by eternaltraveler, 25 December 2009 - 04:33 AM.


#147 eternaltraveler

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 04:27 AM

Increases in global sea level stem from both expansion of warming water (thermosteric change) and addition of new water from melting ice on land (eustatic change). Predictions of future thermosteric changes are relatively well constrained compared with those of the eustatic change associated with melting of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets4

--Huybers et al.

The volume due to thermostatic expansion is far outweighed by that from melting ice. What is not clear from the geological record of past interglacials is the rate of change of the melting; if it causes a constant three to 9 mm a year adaptation with proper preparation will be an expensive nuisance rather than catastrophic. It is discontinuities, a sudden release of ice into the sea resulting in a rise of perhaps a foot or two at a time that are a greater danger. Though this seems unlikely, it cannot be ruled out. A rise of one or two meters a century as the paper below suggest to have been the case during the last interglacial, would be very expensive to adapt to, but there may be no alternative.

Nature Geoscience 1, 38 - 42 (2008)
Published online: 16 December 2007 | doi:10.1038/ngeo.2007.28

Subject Categories: Palaeoclimate and palaeoceanography | Oceanography

High rates of sea-level rise during the last interglacial period
E. J. Rohling1, K. Grant1, Ch. Hemleben2, M. Siddall3, B. A. A. Hoogakker4, M. Bolshaw1 & M. Kucera2 LINK


thanks for the references re thermal expansion. I haven't read much on volume changes of liquid water with temperature before.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 25 December 2009 - 04:42 AM.


#148 eternaltraveler

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 04:41 AM

Though this seems unlikely, it cannot be ruled out. A rise of one or two meters a century as the paper below suggest to have been the case during the last interglacial, would be very expensive to adapt to, but there may be no alternative.


Its possible that a meter a century could happen. But that doesn't seem very likely at the time being considering essentially all of the net continental water being added to the ocean is coming from greenland, and as i pointed out above its only melting at ~200 cubic km a year presently. That rate would have to increase by a factor of 15 to get one meter increase per century.

Again, as you seem abundantly aware of as well, if thats going to happen these bandaids being proposed aren't going to do a thing about it. If we want to stop it it will require geoengineering which is the anathema of most in the global warming movement at present. Then again if china's coastline starts disappearing they might go ahead and just pump some sulfur compounds into the stratosphere themselves to solve the problem.

#149 valkyrie_ice

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 05:01 AM

This states the case for why the data needs to be re-examined quite eloquently:

http://www.finemrespice.com/node/72

Some flow measurement approaching "neverending" seems to make a good candidate for "best descriptive prose" when discussing the number of apologist excuses for various components of the corpus of stolen University of East Anglia Climate Research Unit data. Amusingly, the quality of argument put forth by the many gallant defenders of Climate Science's beleaguered battlements is so desperately weak that it doesn't take but a few hours for one to find oneself suddenly overcome with the impression that one is fishing in a barrel... with dynamite.

To wit:

"The data was stolen."

That's terrible!

Unfortunately:

1. That ship has sailed.
2. It is not clear what, exactly, this has to do with the content of the released data. We aren't dealing with the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure here. (Yet).

"The 'whistleblower' has questionable motives."

That's terrible!

Unfortunately:

1. That ship has sailed.
2. It is not clear what, exactly, this has to do with the content of the released data.
3. This is a totally obvious and meaningless assertion. Questionable motives. Uh, duh. She stole the data.

"This was timed to sabotage the summit in Copenhagen."

That's terrible!

Unfortunately:

1. That ship has sailed.
2. It is not clear what, exactly, this has to do with the content of the released data.
3. I challenge you to find someone who wants to take the other side of a bet that Copenhagen was, also, carefully timed.

"Your romantic view of the scientific process and scientific method doesn't describe the "real world" of science. This is normal."

Also:

"The language used by scientists in the emails in question is typical of a robust peer review process."

Let me suspend my disbelief with respect to this assumption for a moment, and posit that this "typical" characterization is actually true with respect to the peer review process. Putting aside for a moment the negative ramifications this has for the peer review process in general, this assertion does nothing positive at all for views of the veracity of the underlying data or findings in this particular case or, indeed, any data, conclusions or findings that undergo peer review. It does, however, do quite a bit to damage them.

If anything, taken at face value, this assertion seems to suggest that a body of work that has undergone peer review is actually much less credible all things being equal. After all, if peer review is typically characterized by the irresistible urge to delete data rather than share it, violate FOIA laws, sabotage the careers of critics, cherry-pick peers who will be reviewing, scuttle the professional life peers who still apply tough review, manipulate the membership of scholarly publications, hope and pray that no one discovers that your data is subject to FOIA and generally do the sorts of things to "get the message out" that are at issue here (and this is a pretty conservative reading of the emails I've seen), well, it is pretty obvious to anyone who isn't presently under general anesthesia that this has a highly dilutive rather than accretive effect on the credibility of the underlying work.

Truly strong work would survive the slings and arrows of outrageously jealous colleagues and academic politics without political manipulation (or "advocacy" if you prefer) of this kind. True, it might not advance the careers of the scientists involved to the levels of superstardom and celebrity to which they clearly believe themselves entitled. True, the original researchers might even be long dead before the value of their work is finally recognized, but I'm fairly sure that regularly getting the best table at Masa isn't what science is supposed to be all about.

Of course, it isn't really possible to suspend disbelief on this topic so easily. It takes only a cursory reading of the email archive to see that the system as it was in place started off by throwing quite a bit of resistance into the paths of our intrepid heroes. Even IPCC reviewers once objected (can you imagine this recurring today?) to elements of the data and method early on. What is telling is that our heroes felt that these natural features of the peer review process had to be short circuited or totally destroyed in order to "get the message out." For a group that so readily extolled the peer review system when attacking critics who hadn't participated (or had been unable to participate) in it, our latest scientific-lynching victims sure appear to have a poor view of peer review's nobility now that the tables are turned.

Quite contrary to the view that peer review was a brutally cutthroat system that, sadly, forced our beleaguered protagonists to resort to unfortunate, ignoble, or even Chekist (but ultimately necessary) methods to successfully navigate their way to their world-saving destinies, it seems quite clear that they had already rendered the process mostly toothless by the time the CRU finally lost its data security virginity. These guys were bouncing the rubble so hard that there was literally no scrutiny of any substance left. (Enter: "Well settled science.")

In short, arguing that the caustic prose (and action) purportedly compelled of our heroes by the difficulties of the peer review process is "normal" is either distinctly naive, or severely diminishes the credibility of any underlying work that endured such a process. Either way, it is not enough to say "that's normal" and move on. One must ask what ramifications this has for the exceptional claims that underlie anthropomorphic global warming theory.

"The language used by scientists in the emails in question is indicative of scientists under a great deal of political pressure from the outside."

The heart bleeds with an anguish and despair so palpable, so imbued with the darkly iridescent and sickly sweet venom of suffering that it is plainly visible out to 50 meters as a colorful aura, brightly fluorescing through the ribcage, glowing like a beacon of sorrow to any empath with the skill level of a Freshman at Vassar who thinks she remembers once reading a book on shamanism.

As a group one rarely sees scientists (or, indeed, any vocational group other than politicians) so deeply in love with the by-hook-or-by-crook of politics, the grand import of jetting off to Nice for the next climate meeting and the limelight that accompanies all these world-saving goings on as those few, those lucky few exposed in the CRU emails. (Just throw in a bit of expense scandal and you might as well be in the House of Commons- oh, wait a second....) It is all but impossible not to come away with a sense of what is plainly a naked lust for naked ambition simply oozing out of those texts. I am utterly devoid of sympathy for any such that later claim to have been forced to compromise their composure, their decorum or their data because of the unfortunate realities of politics.

Oddly, I suspect there might be a strong correlation between those now citing the unfortunate (but unavoidable) realities attending an environment of political pressure (be it self-inflicted or otherwise) on scientists and those who howled bloody murder upon learning that (quelle surprise!) policymakers might have influenced intelligence analysts and other professionals in the days leading up to the war in Iraq. You were right the first time. Have the courage of your convictions when it cuts against the monumental moment of your little pet science project too, yes?

That our heroes so readily embraced the conflict of interest in which they now find themselves entangled is only the most obvious reason to regard such excuses as laughable farce and to treat their originators with the cold distaste normally reserved for those acquitted but clearly guilty murderers bold enough to be seen once again cavorting in public.

At some point along the line someone decided that the United Nations should be involved. At some point along the line someone decided that Al Gore (a man with no scientific credentials of substance, but apparently some kind of former national politician of some former renown) was a good "face man." At some point along the line someone decided that commanding the unwavering loyalty of the "man on the street" was the critical path to success.

In short, at some point someone decided that it was time to "build consensus." Nay- a national and international consensus. You can hear the urgency in this particular quest even in the public statements our prisoners of public opinion have, from time to time, been known to make public. Phrases like "wide consensus among scientists" and "international mandate." Or, turning to their "not intended for public dissemination" discussions, the burning urgency behind finding as many thousands of scientists (any scientists) as possible to make sure the evening news had a nice, high number for the climate segment's sound bite.

I've pointed out before that this kind of "consensus building," (read: "politics") is intrinsically incompatible with real science. To wit:

Politics, however, is not about the search for truth. It is about the building of consensus. It is easy to see how quickly politics becomes anathema to truth by considering the basic fact that in order to get elected to national office in the United States one must at some level convince a sizable portion of the population that, though you may never say it out loud, you really believe that god hates fags, or perhaps that ethanol subsidies are simply a splendid idea. So what exactly happens when data conflicts with politics? I think the CRU has just shown us.
This "but the politics did it" argument also suffers from the same sort of "well, that's just how it is" flaw as the peer review dodge. It just doesn't cut it to shake your head at how unfortunate it is that national and international politics is run by a stinking den of thieves and move on right past the effect this has on the underlying work. In the end it doesn't matter if our CRU heroes are really evil people deep down, or if they are just individuals with fatalistic weaknesses for the allure of the political process who now find themselves caught up in an unfortunate twist of "that's life when you are dealing with the United Nations." Not only have they been front and center for every effort to pull these organizations into bed with them, they have actively engaged in the exactly the sort of consensus building chicanery that gives, for example, Zimbabwe a forum in which to lecture the United States on fiscal discipline. (Ok, maybe that's not the best example). Or perhaps to Venezuela in which to scold the United States for human rights violations. (Yeah, better).

Both of these "that's just how it is" arguments, even if taken at face value, are strong reasons to reform the widespread application of the scientific method, not to give a blanket pass to data and conclusions so produced. Everyone knows intuitively that the kinds of things highlighted in the more shocking of the CRU emails produce flawed results (See: Sexing up intelligence). Why making the leap to critical re-examination of results produced under these conditions is so difficult is the real question.

"Those emails were not intended for public viewing."

I am ceaselessly amazed at how often this excuse is rolled out whenever some whistleblower or another makes a blockbuster disclosure like this. Of course they weren't intended for public viewing. Which is exactly why they are the absolute best metric of the clear, unvarnished, unpolished, unadulterated and unmitigated views of the authors.

Who was it exactly who put these people in charge of public relations?

"The really bad sounding stuff is being taken out of context."

I would be sympathetic to this view if we were talking about an email here or an email there. The reality is that it is trivial to see a deeply woven thread of malfeasance, almost cultural in its prevalence, extending through dozens and dozens of emails and bleeding over into programming notes and code notations across the entire 60+ megs of data (nearly 160 megs uncompressed). We aren't talking about excerpts from a few unconnected emails here and the entire stash is available for just about anyone who wants to read it. What's out of context is this ridiculous "out of context" excuse.

None of this refutes the notion that anthropomorphic warming is real.

I really don't even know how to talk to people who believe this. I was somewhat shocked to see Megan McArdle repeat it. I can only suspect that people who echo this sentiment simply have not looked as deeply into the matter as they might. The entire dataset on which these studies have been based would be hard pressed to find itself elevated to a level worthy of the descriptor "garbage." After three major and totally undocumented processing iterations the raw data (which, despite recent claims of shocking openness still is unavailable to the scientific plebeian class, and which apparently wasn't so hot to begin with) has been so tortured that reproducing CRU models, the most basic scientific behavioral expression, is quite literally impossible. The worldwide marketing blitz on anthropomorphic global warming may have convinced these individuals that:

1. There is a warming trend, and;
2. It's dangerous.

But even assuming that even the more conservative results posited by the theory happen to be true, relying on these data and modeling epoch to support that notion is the height of irresponsibility- not least because it seems entirely clear now that these results are, using CRU tainted data and/or models, entirely unfalsifiable. This is the very definition of religion.

So what now?

Punt.


emphasis mine.

#150 Blue

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Posted 25 December 2009 - 02:10 PM

yes, i suppose i neglected to give my references above for the numbers I threw out. I assumed falsely such figures would be known.

here they are.

greenland ice loss per year based on satellite data http://www.agu.org/p...8GL034816.shtml
greenland and antarctic ice sheets total volume from the us geologic survey http://www.smith.edu...p108USGS_99.pdf

antarctic ice sheet is gaining ice vs loss based on satellite measurements http://www.gsfc.nasa...outhseaice.html
and http://rsta.royalsoc...4/1627.abstract
and http://www.sciencema...bstract/1110662

In regards to models predicting further thickening of antarctica. That's straight from the exalted intergovernmental pannel on climate change
http://www.ipcc.ch/i...dex.php?idp=600

would you like some data on the average antarctic temperature or can you accept its freakin cold? i admit i pulled that from wikipedia ;)

also

A respected newspaper quoting named researchers and published papers trumps totally unsourced claims.


a newspaper is essentially worse than nothing for science information and doesn't trump the babbling of a baboon in my opinion. If these are your sources for data please realize alarmist propaganda does a much better job of selling newspapers than boring objective reality


Again, the newspaper cited researchers and published reports. Not a babbling baboon. It is these reports and researchers that should be criticized with other sources.

Your own opinons seems to based on the assumption or model that the rate of change will not change in future. Which is of course is a fallacy. Ignoring this, your only source for the future changes is the IPCC one regarding Antartica which does not say what you claim: "The future of glaciers in the Arctic will be primarily one of shrinkage, although it is possible that in a few cases they will grow as a result of increased precipitation." More importantly, this seems to based on very old data. Only data sources from the 90s are mentioned. The Guardian article quotes researchers and papers stating that recently more new data has become available which makes the situation worse.

"The International Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) - when it presented its most up-to-date report on the likely impact of global warming in 2007 - concluded that sea-level rises of between 20 and 60 centimetres would occur by 2100. These figures were derived from estimates of how much the sea will increase in volume as it heats up, a process called thermal expansion, and from projected increases in run-off water from melting glaciers in the Himalayas and other mountain ranges.But the report contained an important caveat: that its sea-level rise estimate contained very little input from melting ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland. The IPCC forecast therefore tended to underestimate forthcoming changes.

"The IPCC felt the whole dynamics of polar ice-sheet melting were too poorly understood," added Vaughan. "However, we are now getting a much better idea of what is going on in Greenland and Antarctica and can make much more accurate forecasts about ice-sheet melting and its contribution to sea-level rises.""
http://www.guardian....change-flooding

Edited by Blue, 25 December 2009 - 02:18 PM.





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