284 replies to this topic

[Animal]

I still occasionly get slight amounts of candida under my foreskin but honey is the best thing to get rid of it (as well as odor) there.

IME the best remedy is probiotic yoghurt applied topically. Gets rid of it right away, better than any antifungal cream.

Are you seriously suggesting he put yoghurt under his foreskin?

[niner]

I still occasionly get slight amounts of candida under my foreskin but honey is the best thing to get rid of it (as well as odor) there.

IME the best remedy is probiotic yoghurt applied topically. Gets rid of it right away, better than any antifungal cream.

Are you seriously suggesting he put yoghurt under his foreskin?

There's a website that caters to that sort of thing...

[nowayout]

I still occasionly get slight amounts of candida under my foreskin but honey is the best thing to get rid of it (as well as odor) there.

IME the best remedy is probiotic yoghurt applied topically. Gets rid of it right away, better than any antifungal cream.

Are you seriously suggesting he put yoghurt under his foreskin?

Laugh all you want. It works better than any antifungal cream. The good bacteria in the yoghurt outcompete the yeast in a day or two.

Can you explain to me how it is worse than putting a manufactured pharmaceutical cream under the foreskin for the much longer period it takes the latter to work?

[OneScrewLoose]

Candida overgrowth is BS that's long been debunked.

Prove it.

I mean in healthy people. When I did two weeks of research on it, I posted this article in another forum on why it's BS:

I've done a ton of research over the last week or so on Candida, and tried the diet a bit too, and I am starting to doubt the veracity of this problem. Being that it is such a hot topic on this forum, I thought I'd make a post about why, and hopefully get some active discussion about it. Also, hopefully, I won't be banned or have this thread locked for having a dissenting opinion. For anyone interested in an in-depth explanation on why it might be false check out this article:

http://www.quackwatc...cs/candida.html

I am aware that quackwatch is biased against pretty much all alternative medicine, but it is still worth a read with that in mind. Here are my issues:

1. Catch-all disease
The first thing that bothered me when I started doing research on this is that Candida can just about cause anything and everything. There was no systematic and consistent symptom profile ever compiled from Candida, except for in immuno-comprised patients. Just long lists of diseases that can really be caused by anything.

2. Results from the Candida diet
The results and relief that people feel can often be explained in other terms. The first thing that struck me is the removal of gluten and caesin. For Celiac Disease alone, 1/4300 are diagnosed with it but 1/133 have it. Then there is a whole of host of other undiagnosed food sensitivities, intolerances and allergies. I would challenge anyone who has gotten relief from the Candida diet to add back the sugar (in the form of healthy food such as fruits) without the gluten and caesin and see if they still feel good. For people who have gotten some relief but are still fighting it, I highly suggest checking out enterolab.com to get a comprehensive food intolerance test done. For a year I went gluten free and my gut felt better, but still not good. I got tests done and it turned out that I am intolerant to dairy and soy as well. With experimenting, eggs proved very painful and peanuts/nuts caused problems too.

Then there is the fact that this diet forces people off pretty much all junk food. Considering how poor people's diets are in this country, it is no surprise that many of them could simply get relief from the diet change required by the candida diet.

As for the "die off," well, any sudden diet change can cause feelings of fatigue and exhaustion that could be associated with die off. But, I have a feeling that a lot of die-off symptoms, such as rashes, can be attributed to the toxic anti-fungals that people take for ridiculous amounts of time. Not only that, but the regimen of Diflucan and Flagyl recommended by Dr. McCandless seems doubly strange, specifically the Flagyl, which is an anti-biotic that kills obligate anaerobes and protozoa (and not fungi, it seems), which one would think would could cause some of the GI imbalances that would like to Candidiasis in the first place.

3. Unexplained food restrictions
This is one of the strangest part of the diet. So many foods are restricted but no explanation as to why. I'll go over some 1 by 1.

Alcohol
Alcohol is a metabolic waste product of the fermentation process. It is basically yeast p!ss, I fail to see how drowning yeast in their own waste would encourage their growth. If anything, one would think it would stunt it. In fact, the amount of alcohol often limits the amount of fermentation that can take place, as yeast can only tolerate so much alcohol. If this weren't the case, then that 30-year-old barrel of wine would long have been 100% alcohol, but it somehow stops at about 12%.

Mushrooms or any other fungi
This is one is by far the most ridiculous. So I have an infection of one type of fungi, so I shouldn't have any others? What? Where's the evidence for this? Who decreed this? To me, this amounts to having a bacterial infection, and not having yogurt, because it contains other bacteria.

Caffeine
What? How in the world does this help Candida or any fungus? Caffeine is an antagonist of adenosine in the brain and can also increase cAMP levels, both of which contribute to it's "energy boosting" effects. But it does not have any inherent energy like glucose or fructose to encourage cell growth. I really fail to see how this is important.

Chocolate
From thecandidadiet.com:
"Often Candida sufferers have sweet cravings, which makes it doubly important to stay off the chocolate! Its not you that needs the chocolate, its the Candida telling you that its hungry. Put your Candida on a starvation diet - don't eat chocolate."

Once again, no explanation as to what mechanism chocolate encourages yeast growth (other than the obvious sugar).

-----

I could go on, but I think that's enough. The reality is that a lot of these restrictions come from the speculatory recommendations of Dr. Crook, the guy who popularized a widespread systemic Candidiasis in "The Yeast Connect." They don't seem to have a lot of actual basis.

4. Inconsistent information
Every little Candida site has there own take on Candida, Candida protocols, and diet information. Even in avoidance from sugar and what constitutes the dos and don'ts. Even in the info Brenda posts, there was contradictions. For instance, in one of the posts she makes, it says to avoid pineapple, but one says to go for it. Her posts do say to avoid strawberries, but other sites say that strawberries are OK. Makes no sense.

Another example in one of Brenda's post say no tea or coffee unless it's organic. What? So caffeine is OK if it's organic?Check out any site and you'll find that no two of them are alike when it comes to diet recommendations and candida. If this were a true syndrome that could be reproducible from person to person, one would expect some level of consistency.

5. The test of time
It seems that widespread systemic candidiasis has not stood the test of time. It seems that it became really popular in the 80s after the release of the yeast connection, but has since waned in popularity. If it were really helping so many people, then you'd think that the popularity of this diet would have been sustained, if not increased.
Not only that, but there aren't even a lot of web forums for this online, which I found especially strange.

6. People who never get better
Looking through web posts and web forums, this was the scariest part. It seems something that was supposed to take a few weeks or a few months become a life-long thing. People posting why doesn't such and such work and waiting and waiting for relief. It was really depressing. I couldn't find the success stories. More indication to me that there are other underlying problems instead.

7. Lack scientific evidence
After most of my time the last couple weeks researching Candida, I can't seem to find any real studies or trials showing that Candida is a problem in anyone except for people with compromised immune systems. Just tests that supposedly diagnose you with it (such as the ones touted on this forum as organic acid tests and other tests such as IgA, IgG, and IgM tests), and anecdotal evidence, usually testimonials in an attempt to sell, me something, which brings me to my last point:

8. BUY BUY BUY
It seems that almost every site with candida info is trying to sell me something. When I first started looking for info on this and dietary tips, I naturally thought of web forums. As I mentioned, there were few, and I the only one with a decent bulletin board system/forum was this site:

http://www.candidaye...hrushforum.com/

whose primary goal seems to sell Threelac (and the newer version, Fivelac, because the first version was missing two whole lacs)
Another site trying to sell Threelac is thecandidadiet.com itself.

I had a real hard time finding a site that has a good layout of info, a forum, and isn't trying to sell me something. I was unsuccesful. This isn't asking a lot either, it should be something pretty basic on the web for a disease that's supposedly so prevalent.

Also, here's a story of one doctor prescribing these antifungals to a patient:
http://www.quackwatc...p;query=candida

Here's a double-blind placebo study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....4?dopt=Abstract

Here's an article:
http://www.drweil.co.../u/id/QAA125503

Mayo Clinic comment:
http://www.mayoclini...cleanse/AN01679

Another pubmed article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;ordinalpos=46

Here's another site with a ton of sources:
http://www.doctorfun...Candidiasis.htm

The list just goes on and on...

[silverneedle]

Picamilon - Bad depression both times i tried it
Curcumin- great for pain but also kills libido
D3 with fish oil- 2500ui Causes heart palpitations for 24 hours
Deprenyl - behavior became quite hostile and agressive after one small dose
Piracetam - pill with sunset yellow caused tiredness, same amount of powder without dye was fine
NAC- Heart palpitations relieved by drinking some alcohol

[NeverSayDie]

Also, here's a story of one doctor prescribing these antifungals to a patient:
http://www.quackwatc...p;query=candida

Wow..you're citing quackwatch.com

This is quite possibly one of the most biased health information sites on the web and is downright notorious for being so.

If you give credence to quackwatch, then I am wondering why you are in the supplements forum of this site. The last time I checked, quackwatch has unequivocally labeled any and every non-drug/non-surgical/non-mainstream approach to health concerns as being quackery. Yes, that would include nearly all of the supplements discussed in this forum.

With reporting that is so blatantly imbalanced with a heavy pro-Big Medicine bias...I can't really be bothered to pay any attention to anything that comes from that site. It just simply isn't reliable.

Stephen Barrett is a piece of work, though. That's for sure.

Edited by NeverSayDie, 19 December 2009 - 10:48 PM.

[k10]

Candida overgrowth is BS that's long been debunked.

Prove it.

I mean in healthy people. When I did two weeks of research on it, I posted this article in another forum on why it's BS:

I've done a ton of research over the last week or so on Candida, and tried the diet a bit too, and I am starting to doubt the veracity of this problem. Being that it is such a hot topic on this forum, I thought I'd make a post about why, and hopefully get some active discussion about it. Also, hopefully, I won't be banned or have this thread locked for having a dissenting opinion. For anyone interested in an in-depth explanation on why it might be false check out this article:

http://www.quackwatc...cs/candida.html

I am aware that quackwatch is biased against pretty much all alternative medicine, but it is still worth a read with that in mind. Here are my issues:

1. Catch-all disease
The first thing that bothered me when I started doing research on this is that Candida can just about cause anything and everything. There was no systematic and consistent symptom profile ever compiled from Candida, except for in immuno-comprised patients. Just long lists of diseases that can really be caused by anything.

2. Results from the Candida diet
The results and relief that people feel can often be explained in other terms. The first thing that struck me is the removal of gluten and caesin. For Celiac Disease alone, 1/4300 are diagnosed with it but 1/133 have it. Then there is a whole of host of other undiagnosed food sensitivities, intolerances and allergies. I would challenge anyone who has gotten relief from the Candida diet to add back the sugar (in the form of healthy food such as fruits) without the gluten and caesin and see if they still feel good. For people who have gotten some relief but are still fighting it, I highly suggest checking out enterolab.com to get a comprehensive food intolerance test done. For a year I went gluten free and my gut felt better, but still not good. I got tests done and it turned out that I am intolerant to dairy and soy as well. With experimenting, eggs proved very painful and peanuts/nuts caused problems too.

Then there is the fact that this diet forces people off pretty much all junk food. Considering how poor people's diets are in this country, it is no surprise that many of them could simply get relief from the diet change required by the candida diet.

As for the "die off," well, any sudden diet change can cause feelings of fatigue and exhaustion that could be associated with die off. But, I have a feeling that a lot of die-off symptoms, such as rashes, can be attributed to the toxic anti-fungals that people take for ridiculous amounts of time. Not only that, but the regimen of Diflucan and Flagyl recommended by Dr. McCandless seems doubly strange, specifically the Flagyl, which is an anti-biotic that kills obligate anaerobes and protozoa (and not fungi, it seems), which one would think would could cause some of the GI imbalances that would like to Candidiasis in the first place.

3. Unexplained food restrictions
This is one of the strangest part of the diet. So many foods are restricted but no explanation as to why. I'll go over some 1 by 1.

Alcohol
Alcohol is a metabolic waste product of the fermentation process. It is basically yeast p!ss, I fail to see how drowning yeast in their own waste would encourage their growth. If anything, one would think it would stunt it. In fact, the amount of alcohol often limits the amount of fermentation that can take place, as yeast can only tolerate so much alcohol. If this weren't the case, then that 30-year-old barrel of wine would long have been 100% alcohol, but it somehow stops at about 12%.

Mushrooms or any other fungi
This is one is by far the most ridiculous. So I have an infection of one type of fungi, so I shouldn't have any others? What? Where's the evidence for this? Who decreed this? To me, this amounts to having a bacterial infection, and not having yogurt, because it contains other bacteria.

Caffeine
What? How in the world does this help Candida or any fungus? Caffeine is an antagonist of adenosine in the brain and can also increase cAMP levels, both of which contribute to it's "energy boosting" effects. But it does not have any inherent energy like glucose or fructose to encourage cell growth. I really fail to see how this is important.

Chocolate
From thecandidadiet.com:
"Often Candida sufferers have sweet cravings, which makes it doubly important to stay off the chocolate! Its not you that needs the chocolate, its the Candida telling you that its hungry. Put your Candida on a starvation diet - don't eat chocolate."

Once again, no explanation as to what mechanism chocolate encourages yeast growth (other than the obvious sugar).

-----

I could go on, but I think that's enough. The reality is that a lot of these restrictions come from the speculatory recommendations of Dr. Crook, the guy who popularized a widespread systemic Candidiasis in "The Yeast Connect." They don't seem to have a lot of actual basis.

4. Inconsistent information
Every little Candida site has there own take on Candida, Candida protocols, and diet information. Even in avoidance from sugar and what constitutes the dos and don'ts. Even in the info Brenda posts, there was contradictions. For instance, in one of the posts she makes, it says to avoid pineapple, but one says to go for it. Her posts do say to avoid strawberries, but other sites say that strawberries are OK. Makes no sense.

Another example in one of Brenda's post say no tea or coffee unless it's organic. What? So caffeine is OK if it's organic?Check out any site and you'll find that no two of them are alike when it comes to diet recommendations and candida. If this were a true syndrome that could be reproducible from person to person, one would expect some level of consistency.

5. The test of time
It seems that widespread systemic candidiasis has not stood the test of time. It seems that it became really popular in the 80s after the release of the yeast connection, but has since waned in popularity. If it were really helping so many people, then you'd think that the popularity of this diet would have been sustained, if not increased.
Not only that, but there aren't even a lot of web forums for this online, which I found especially strange.

6. People who never get better
Looking through web posts and web forums, this was the scariest part. It seems something that was supposed to take a few weeks or a few months become a life-long thing. People posting why doesn't such and such work and waiting and waiting for relief. It was really depressing. I couldn't find the success stories. More indication to me that there are other underlying problems instead.

7. Lack scientific evidence
After most of my time the last couple weeks researching Candida, I can't seem to find any real studies or trials showing that Candida is a problem in anyone except for people with compromised immune systems. Just tests that supposedly diagnose you with it (such as the ones touted on this forum as organic acid tests and other tests such as IgA, IgG, and IgM tests), and anecdotal evidence, usually testimonials in an attempt to sell, me something, which brings me to my last point:

8. BUY BUY BUY
It seems that almost every site with candida info is trying to sell me something. When I first started looking for info on this and dietary tips, I naturally thought of web forums. As I mentioned, there were few, and I the only one with a decent bulletin board system/forum was this site:

http://www.candidaye...hrushforum.com/

whose primary goal seems to sell Threelac (and the newer version, Fivelac, because the first version was missing two whole lacs)
Another site trying to sell Threelac is thecandidadiet.com itself.

I had a real hard time finding a site that has a good layout of info, a forum, and isn't trying to sell me something. I was unsuccesful. This isn't asking a lot either, it should be something pretty basic on the web for a disease that's supposedly so prevalent.

Also, here's a story of one doctor prescribing these antifungals to a patient:
http://www.quackwatc...p;query=candida

Here's a double-blind placebo study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....4?dopt=Abstract

Here's an article:
http://www.drweil.co.../u/id/QAA125503

Mayo Clinic comment:
http://www.mayoclini...cleanse/AN01679

Another pubmed article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....p;ordinalpos=46

Here's another site with a ton of sources:
http://www.doctorfun...Candidiasis.htm

The list just goes on and on...

Nystatin is effective in treating poly-symptomatic patients, see:
http://fampra.oxford...t/full/18/3/258
- EXCELLENT study!!!

I encourage you to read through the whole study and all the symptoms that showed improved from nystatin.

Results. Nystatin was significantly better than placebo in reduction of the overall symptom score (P < 0.003). In six of the 45 individually recorded symptoms, the improvement was significant (P < 0.01). All three active treatment groups reduced their overall symptom scores significantly (P < 0.0001), while the placebo regimen had no effect (P = 0.83). The benefit of diet was significant within both the nystatin (ND > N) and the placebo groups (PD > P).

Conclusions. Nystatin is superior to placebo in reducing localized and systemic symptoms in individuals with presumed fungus hypersensitivity as selected by a 7-item questionnaire. This superiority is probably enhanced even further by a sugar- and yeast-free diet.

And list of all the symptoms + improvement seen in the study:
http://fampra.oxford...ull/18/3/258/T3

[OneScrewLoose]

I linked to quackwatch not for information, I know it's biased, but simply for that story. I don't doubt that that story happened simply because quackwatch is the one telling it.

Also, do you have more than one study k10? I did some more googling and could not find another study of it's kind supporting this. 1 study against the mountain of evidence to the contrary doesn't cut it.

[NeverSayDie]

I linked to quackwatch not for information, I know it's biased, but simply for that story. I don't doubt that that story happened simply because quackwatch is the one telling it.

Yeah, maybe/maybe not. I wouldn't put it past quackwatch to complete fabricate the story either. That psychiatrist is downright desperate in his attempts to discredit and debunk everything that goes against the grain of allopathic/mainstream medicine.

An estimated 106,000* people in this country die every year from properly prescribed/properly administered drugs. And yet, Stephen Barrett spends all of his time trying to prove that an herb like echinacea is DEADLY AND DANGEROUS. It's beyond ridiculous.

The psychiatrists are always the crazy ones, huh? LOL

*Starfield, B. (2000, July 26). Is US health really the best in the world? Journal of the American Medical Association, 284(4), 483-485.

Edited by NeverSayDie, 20 December 2009 - 02:45 PM.

[OneScrewLoose]

I linked to quackwatch not for information, I know it's biased, but simply for that story. I don't doubt that that story happened simply because quackwatch is the one telling it.

Yeah, maybe/maybe not. I wouldn't put it past quackwatch to complete fabricate the story either. That psychiatrist is downright desperate in his attempts to discredit and debunk everything that goes against the grain of allopathic/mainstream medicine.

An estimated 106,000* people in this country die every year from properly prescribed/properly administered drugs. And yet, Stephen Barrett spends all of his time trying to prove that an herb like echinacea is DEADLY AND DANGEROUS. It's beyond ridiculous.

The psychiatrists are always the crazy ones, huh? LOL

*Starfield, B. (2000, July 26). Is US health really the best in the world? Journal of the American Medical Association, 284(4), 483-485.

You used the word allopathic. I take it you believe in homeopathy?

[NeverSayDie]

You used the word allopathic. I take it you believe in homeopathy?

I prefer to treat health concerns with holistic/naturopathic medicine. I have no personal experience with homeopathy and therefore cannot either support it nor discount it.

I know that originally the term "allopathic" was used in counter reference to "homeopathy" but it over time it has come to represent standard/conventional medicine.

"First, do no harm" (a la Hippocratic Oath) has been either forgotten or ignored by conventional medicine and its a shame.

"Is US health really the best in the world?", published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, by Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH http://www.imminst.o...ity-t36325.html

[Mixter]

DHEA: temporary acne
Creatine: works, but I always get terrible nausea
Selenium: long lasting nausea if 200mcg taken alone

Idebenone: taken at bedtime, just to find out it's not going to be bedtime for another 5 hours (known to cause insomnia)

Fish oil: can increase/cause pains in higher doses (>= 2 g). Make sure to take one with sesame lignans, reason:

LEF Mix: stomach pain and nausea when taken on an empty stomach (long time ago, but that was pretty careless. btw, never take vitamins on an empty stomach and never without some fat. especially never take anything with curcumin without food, as that is known to cause ulcers on an empty stomach)

Glucophage (CR-like benefits, but Rx, not really a supplement): once took 500mg with almost no carbs => mild hypoglycemia (sweat, palpitations) => ended up eating some spoons of table sugar

Btw, for a forum with many 'heavy' supplement users, and not all of them careful, this is a relatively harmless and non-life-threatening list of side effects.

[immortali457]

That seems like a Herxheimer reaction due to candida albicans die-off. Olive leaf extract is used to treat candida overgrowth.

I take it religiously everyday. I still get huge sugar cravings though so I don't know if I am free from candida.

I still occasionly get slight amounts of candida under my foreskin but honey is the best thing to get rid of it (as well as odor) there.

There's quite a few valid complaints about supplements but also some people missing the point in some aspects i.e. that the supplement that makes you feel good isn't anti aging. The supplement that makes you feel like shit for months on end is. This is because of the immunopathology and inflammation as all the pathogenic bacteria are targeted, destroyed and cleaned up. Once the rubble clears you're in better shape then you were when you started.

You actually believe this????

[lynx]

Fish oil: can increase/cause pains in higher doses (>= 2 g). Make sure to take one with sesame lignans, reason:

No GLA in fish oil, you may mean borage or primrose oil

[SATANICAT]

Multi-vitamins, especially the liquid ones, make me tired and lethargic (I blame it on amounts of B-vitamins).
Ginseng - makes me want to sleep the day away
Green Tea - does the same thing as ginseng 0.o?

Generally if it is supposed to give me energy, it makes me want to sleep. The only exception is coffee, it makes me wired beyond control.

[rwac]

Generally if it is supposed to give me energy, it makes me want to sleep. The only exception is coffee, it makes me wired beyond control.

I suspect an ACh deficiency. Try some CDP-choline to see if it helps.

[dangerroadhumps]

7 keto- quite weird acne in places I've never gotten it

fish oil-1.5 g epa/dha gave me crazy heart palpitations

forskolin- i do not enjoy my time in the bathroom

[Lufega]

Curcumin does lower your libido :(

[FunkOdyssey]

Curcumin does lower your libido :(

Aha, wasn't just me. At first I was suspecting mTOR inhibition but now I'm thinking along the lines of cox-2 and "inflammatory" eicosanoid inhibition, some of which are very important for libido . I suspect EPA is also a libido killer at higher doses for the same reason.

[Lufega]

Lithium lowers NE, decreased blood pressure further and makes me feel sleepy and dizzy. This is bad for me. However, this might be a good agent for hypertension.

[snow leopard]

great topic! I heard st. jonhs wort makes the birth control pill less effective, plus taking it with magnesium gives me an awful tension headache. don't get me wrong st. johns wort is great I was taking for a month. great for a mood booster.

[ajnast4r]

great topic! I heard st. jonhs wort makes the birth control pill less effective

it does... plus quite a few other drugs

[SATANICAT]

Generally if it is supposed to give me energy, it makes me want to sleep. The only exception is coffee, it makes me wired beyond control.

I suspect an ACh deficiency. Try some CDP-choline to see if it helps.

Sounds about right. Although I don't take choline supplements, I do receive an outrageous burst of energy several minutes after eating raw eggs, which are supposed to be great suppliers of choline. But, the energy may come from the easily digestible proteins and fat in the egg itself. I'll try what you said. Thanks.

[TigerMask]

Anything cholinergic makes me depressed. That includes DMAE, lecithin, choline bitartrate, and acetylcarnitine. Phosphatidylserine and gingko make me irritable and give me a headache. Lipoic acid tears my stomach up in any form, including a single drop (5 mg.) of liquid potassium lipoate. Jeez, it's a wonder I keep trying this stuff.

I'm pretty sure Lecithin makes me suicidal.

[jackj]

Selegiline/Deprenyl is the main one I remember as it allowed me to concentrate on things for so long but I was so angry/aggressive to anyone who talked to me, had to quit it pretty quickly.

Fish Oil (bare with me), when I first started taking it I would lie in bed and I could feel what felt like veins throbbing as if they where blocked or unblocking. started to worry a bit. It went on for a week or two and eventually stopped. I used to get occasional throbbing before taking it but ever since then I don't have this problem and I'm still taking fish oil.

Melatonin didn't work for me.. but I only took it for a week or two and I'm pretty sure it gave me 'restless legs' when trying to sleep.

A multivitamin (Swiss) I take now and then when I not feeling to good. I'm pretty sure it only make my urine a bright yellow/green colour though and that kinda cheers me up.

Edited by jackj, 12 January 2010 - 03:46 PM.

[Shay]

The worst reaction I've gotten from a supplement was from, believe it or not, Resveratrol

A week after starting it I got a lower back ache that would not go away, then I started getting other pains in my joints. I discontinued use and it took months for these problems to go away.

I'll second this! Very similar effect.

[Ayo]

1. Horse chestnut -- Found it made the skin in my face and neck REALLY saggy. Probably by increasing the action of elastase. It was supposed to do the opposite.

How much of the horse chestnut were you taking? I was thinking of taking it for my veins but this has scared me. Did it reverse upon stopping it?

[kitinje]

I just want to share my experiencce,

yesterday I tried for the first time in my life Echinacea extract in order to strenghten my immune system..
Well what happend is that a few minutes later I had an anaphylactic reaction, my pulse raised to 150bpm and I experienced respiratory issues as well.
I was carried to the hospital where an intravenous corticosteroid injection was needed to make me immediately feel better.

Wow. That was a really bad experience. Killing myself was not in my agenda.

I never had problems with any kind of vegetal supplements that i have been taking for years, no problems with resveratrol, green tea or anything else.
Never had issues with any pharmaceutical drug.

Today I had a little research on echinacea.
Kingdom: Plantae
Order: Asterales
Family: Asteraceae
Tribe: Heliantheae
Genus: Echinacea

When i was younger i had soft hay fever.
My last test said that i was a little allergic to Birch and Hazel.
Do you see any relationship?

I wanted to start astragalus supplementation but now I'm a little worried.
I think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to put a little astragalus on scratched skin to see if there is some kind of reaction.. what do you think?

I just wanted to share this experience, and hope it can be useful at least for those people that have or had a mild hay fever when they were younger..

[navyblue]

Inositol (12g/day) : Felt extremely feverish and sick
Ashwagandha : Feels like I'm having hot flashes, and I'm a guy.
Piracetam w/ Alpha-GPC : SPACED OUT!
Tyrosine : Euphoric anxiety if that makes any sense
DLPA : Same as above, but with the addition of a tension headache
L-Arginine : Knocks me out cold. Felt like 10000000g of Unisom
CoQ10: Spaced out
Ginkgo : Blood thinned out, possibly due to low vitamin-K. A bit of stomach upset. At least I think that is what it is
L-Theanine : Same as Tyrosine, but also makes me tired
DMAE : Spaced out
Asparagus Root : Felt a little too euphoric
Holy Basil : A bit of a headache
Rhodiola : Great the 1st day, but very irritable afterwards.
Picamilon : Made me too tired
Fish Oil : Again, blood thinned out, possibly due to low vitamin-K.
Alpha Lipoic Acid : Chest pain
Quercetin : Chest pain

I still take a few of these supplements from time to time as the positive effects outweigh the negative ones. And as someone said earlier, great thread! Very interesting to see the wildly different results. Could save some people a lot of money.

Edited by navyblue, 27 January 2010 - 09:12 AM.

[navyblue]

Forgot one.

St. John's Wort : Massive migraine like headaches

Edited by navyblue, 27 January 2010 - 10:52 AM.