79 replies to this topic

[nootropi]

Why? You are supposed to take Aniracetam on a full stomach, right? Preferably with fatty foods. At least that is what I thought.

Regarding the two books you speak of: Smart Drugs and Nutrients; in my opinion those ARE NOT good books. Shpongled has a far more elequent writing style and presents facts in an orderly fashion; he compiles the conclusions of several studies very efficiently; the "Smart Drugs and Nutrients" books are largely anecdotal...cliche, if you will.

[nootropi]

I've never read the books but the tone of people speaking about them made it seem good, sphongled however does pack much more hard scientific information into an article and does not rely heavily on anecdotal evidence. Nootropics cannot be taken seriously without the serious scientific support. sphongled does not short change the reader in his articles and he is not influenced by his relationship to 1fast400.

His "relationship" with a particular website would only be an "issue" if he specifically only endorsed one website; for example, if he said, this is a good drug, BUT you have to buy it from John Doe...

The Smart Drugs and Nutrients series is completly rediculous, in my opinion. If there was a well written book about nootropics that detailed their chemical structure, direct and indirect effects, as well summarized the results of numerous studies it would be a bestseller. This is exactly what I am thinking. And I would invest in such a venture (with my own capital).

[thumb]

Edited by adamp2p, 27 May 2004 - 02:14 AM.

[nootropi]

sphongled should write a book, however I don't know his credentials and anything less than a PhD writing about something as controversial as nootropics might be difficult. Although what would I know considering I haven't taken a biology/anatomy course in my life.

That is not necessarily true. If an author writes as well as sphongled, there could simply be a link to his book at the bottom of each of his articles throughout the net. He could require anybody who posts his articles to link to an amazon site that sells his book; and it would not have to be too expensive to be very profitable. The internet thrives on an overdose of data; it is very difficult and expensive to get your hands on the full articles published by scientific journals. If someone could analyse several nootropics and publish all of their findings in an objective manner, thousands of copies would sell. Anybody who can compile data such an efficient, eloquent manner will attract several thousand customers who want analysis of, say, 40 or so chemicals. If you take a hit meter of his articles, divide that by 50, that would be the minimum books he could sell.

If he charged $15 USD per book and prints merely 10,000 that would be $150,000 USD in revenue when to print the books should cost about appx. $15-20,000 USD (depending on the quality and contents of the print).

[shpongled]

Thanks for the positive comments. I have definitely considered writing a book, at least an e-book, which as far as I know is much easier to do than getting something in print. On the other hand, an e-book is much easier to rip off, as people will inevitably email it to each other. However, I don't really have any credentials (other than having my writings in a few print magazines), as I am still in college. Also, my writing style is tailored for relatively intelligent people, so it doesn't have a lot of mass appeal. Not that I'm not capable of "dumbing things down" so to speak, but because I don't like doing it, because so much is inevitably lost in translation. My typical approach with any subject is to learn as much as I reasonably can and then formulate conclusions, and with nootropics, I am still in the first stage. There are some nootropics that I know very little about. Once I've gotten my bases covered, I am definitely going to consider compiling the information, but that is a ways down the road.

[nootropi]

Today I am getting some R-ALA, Centrophenoxine, and Pyritinol from Smi2le.biz. I plan on having the R-ALA tested by IBC labs. I will post the results here.

[nootropi]

Thanks for the positive comments. I have definitely considered writing a book, at least an e-book, which as far as I know is much easier to do than getting something in print. On the other hand, an e-book is much easier to rip off, as people will inevitably email it to each other. However, I don't really have any credentials (other than having my writings in a few print magazines), as I am still in college. Also, my writing style is tailored for relatively intelligent people, so it doesn't have a lot of mass appeal. Not that I'm not capable of "dumbing things down" so to speak, but because I don't like doing it, because so much is inevitably lost in translation. My typical approach with any subject is to learn as much as I reasonably can and then formulate conclusions, and with nootropics, I am still in the first stage. There are some nootropics that I know very little about. Once I've gotten my bases covered, I am definitely going to consider compiling the information, but that is a ways down the road.

Well David; the least you should do is provide your readers with a way to express their gratitude...maybe for now, add a paypal donation link?

I would donate...

[thumb]

[rizzer]

AOR Support:
Your lab results on r-ala don't show a percentage purity; do you have independent results from IBC stating the purity? If it's only 80% and 20% polymer/air that is fine...but don't critize mine when they come out if you don't have results of yours...especially results that were "in the wild" as they say..

Adam is going to send my r-ala into IBC to have tested; I'm confident about this but not that confident; since I don't think his r-ala has been refrigerated at his house and it's been shipped a few times; we'll see how much r-ala is still there..if it's over 90% that's probably a good result; but I think it will be higher..I got some tips from geronova that I'll send to Adam so that we can have them test for polymer content s-ala/r-ala and other things that IBC can test for on the r-ala.. I am probably buying some k-rla from geronova.com to use in formulas and to sell to people who'd rather pay more for confidence...but I think the concerns with r-ala are exagerrated mostly by the people from geronova who sell the k-rla...but they are good people and I"m gonna get some k-rla from them as I've already destroyed a lot of materials trying to blend r-ala with them..like idebenone and r-ala (both very expensive materials)

I do agree about smart-nutrition...they are a great company...they're probably getting phenibut,aniracetam and centrophenoxine from me and we might work together on sourcing all materials...they sent me some covex vinpocetine for a really great price too...they also have great information and feeder sites on all the stuff they sell...and even if they have higher prices then me....they will still get a lot of orders from people who search on materials and learn about them from their sites...

Yes I"m planning on getting COQ-10..the market on this stuff is huge and if I have the cheapest price on it people will knock down my door to get it..I'm probably gonna order 5kg from us suppliers within 2 weeks..if it sells well and I have enough money I might get 100kg from one of my chinese contacts...I still think idebenone is a lot better then COQ-10 though despite Dr. Weil and others ignoring all the data on idebenone...

Thanks,
Mike
http://smi2le.biz/

[AORsupport]

AOR Support:
Your lab results on r-ala don't show a percentage purity; do you have independent results from IBC stating the purity? If it's only 80% and 20% polymer/air that is fine...but don't critize mine when they come out if you don't have results of yours...especially results that were "in the wild" as they say..

Without excessive quibbling, the cited certificate of analysis does show the aspects of purity of greatest concern to R-lipoic acid supplement users, namely, breakdown of the lipoic acid into percentages of R-LA, S-LA, and polymer (namely, 99.5%, 0.006%, and 0.5%, respectively), which is a testament to the extremely high quality of the material.

I'm not sure what you mean by "air" above; obviously, one does not and cannot assay for the amount of "air" in a material, and the amount of air in a capsule does not bear on quality except in cases where peroxidizability is a major issue, as in some omega-3 supplements (and even here the "air" would be quite acceptable if it were nitrogen gas, for instance). However, certainly, if there were 20% polymer in the material it would be of exceedingly poor quality, and we would have thrown out the batch.

Below is a scan of the IBC Certificate of Analysis for this batch's raw material, clearly showing the purity of the material outside of all excipients etc: it is a true, pharmaceutical-grade material.

Adam is going to send my r-ala into IBC to have tested; I'm confident about this but not that confident; since I don't think his r-ala has been refrigerated at his house and it's been shipped a few times; we'll see how much r-ala is still there..if it's over 90% that's probably a good result; but I think it will be higher..

AOR would not use, and I certainly would not put into my own body, a material with such a low result. Even reagent-grade material, which is unfit for human consumption, should be significantly higher than 90%. Pharmaceutical-grade lipoic acid (whether racemate or R(+)-LA)) is >98% LA per EP. Residual solvents, heavy metals, epicontaminants, and unspecified impurities do not qualify as life extension compounds.

AOR

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[nootropi]

@ AORsupport: are you sitting on that same batch from November 2003? Or have you restocked since then? If so, could you show us your most recent analysis?

That result is from six months ago [sfty] ; considering the degradation rate of R+Lipoic Acid, the purity of your stock probably has diminished signifcantly; you should definately consider restocking if you have not recently.

Adam.

[abolitionist]

AORsupport's postings seem to be on the level - I'm sure that if they believed that Idebenone was beneficial - they would be selling it. Their caution reflects positively on their ethic.

There is definately a tendency among supplement users to exaggerate the potential benefits of a substance and to get over-excited about anecdotal reports and research that isn't directly related to a product's intended usage. This is certainly understandable given the human condition but ultimately is counter-productive.

It is a good idea to hold-off on using Idebenone until more-conclusive studies on the long-term effects and benefits to healthy users are available. There is a good reason to not use yourself as a guinea-pig (increased oxidative stress on mitochondria.)

I think that a good test of a substance should account for everything that it contains. 96% is a little weak in my opinion - what else is in there?

These are valid concerns IMHO, especially considering that many people intend to use these substances on a long-term basis.

[nootropi]

It is 96.73%, not 96%. And you are calling AOR's "caution" as reflecting positively on their "ethic?" I am sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.

If AOR was "cautious" and "ethical" don't you think that over seven months is a little too long for a purity authentication? Because that is the only analysis that they have performed, or so it seems...wouldn't you THINK that if they DID submit a sample to IBC RECENTLY (ie in the last month) that they wouldn't display the resuits of THAT analysis (rather than one from NOVEMBER 2003)? What kind of fool do you think I am? If I submitted the results of an analysis from NOVEMEBER 2003, wouldn't you be a bit doubtful that the quality of a supplement did not degrade over the course of seven months? LOL!

"A tendency among supplement users?" Huh? You must be speaking of your own tendency! Recall that in another thread (please spare me by not editing what you wrote) you suspected that the effects of the idebenone/ALA/ Aniracetam combo "could be placebo." Clearly you doubt your own reactions to supplements; therefore you probably should refrain from using ANYTHING that is not approved by the FDA! LOL!

I'm currently taking 300mg of regular ALA with only 45mg Idebenone for now.

Maybe it's all placebo effect, but I find combining ALA, Idebenone, and Aniracetam has a long-lasting stimulating effect.

You can hold off all you want, my friend. There is more conclusive evidence that idebenone REDUCES mitochondrial free radicals than evidence that states the converse.

What else is there? Man, you need to educate yourself BEFORE opening your mouth, okay? Here you are on one hand telling me how you aren't sure if effects are placebo or not, and on the other hand you are telling me that 96.73% purity is substandard? Jeez! I hate explaining things to n00bs! Okay, okay, I guess I will be patient with this one...LOL...

Why don't you put your reading glasses on for a minute and glance back at the IBC analysis of smi2le's idebenone for a moment and look closely at the specs. The substance was analysed for heavy metals and other such contaminants. The results are consistent with the COA.

If you go buy a freaking chocolate bar, and have it analysed by IBC labs, you will find that it is NOT 100% chocolate. Is this suprising to you? I sure hope so. You do not know, for example, the degradation rate of idebenone, now do you? LOL. And here you are opening your mouth, drawing conclusions which are based on your non technical knowledge of this topic...In "my opinion..." LOL! Who are you? Should we respect your opinion when you do not even know the difference between subjectivity and objectivity? Well I will tell you I do not respect your opinion, sorry.

YOU are the one using ANECDOTAL evidence to support YOUR claims! I am using scientific evidence for mine. Check your premises: there should be NO contradictions!

[glasses]

[AORsupport]

AORsupport: are you sitting on that same batch from November 2003?  Or have you restocked since then?  If so, could you show us your most recent analysis?

Our current batches are still from this same lot, purchased in November.

That result is from six months ago  [sfty] ; considering the degradation rate of R+Lipoic Acid, the purity of your stock probably has diminished signifcantly; you should definately consider restocking if you have not recently.

Adam.

If R-LA degraded that quickly, it would be unethical to sell it, as it would have lost potency and have produced degradation products of unknown health impact well within the period that it would likely sit on a shelf. Also, it would mean that the expiration dates were fraudulent. Any material that degrades quickly likely either has a contaminant, or is so intrinsically unstable as to make it simply inappropriate for use in a dietary supplement for humans.

AOR R-Lipoic acid-containing supplements (including Network Synergy and Ortho•Mind) still meet full label claim 2 years after manufacture if properly stored. Leave them sitting on the windowsill or uncapped for this period, of course, and all bets are off.

To your health!

AOR

[nootropi]

Your speculation is not compelling...nice try though...

if properly stored

LOL.

[abolitionist]

adamp2p, I personally think what smi2le is doing is great! a business for selling nootropics, anti-aging substances at the lowest cost. I hope he is very successful as well.

but, why only 96%? Yes it's true that I don't know about how well Idebenone keeps - that's why I'm asking. Still, I'd like to know what is in the other 4%.

let's stop all the posturing and name calling and get down to the facts. patience is a good thing. If you don't have the patience, then don't bother responding.

Also, I've yet to see any studies of Idebenone on healthy subjects showing the side effects and benefits - which isn't to say they don't exist, but here would be a great place to post them.

let's keep this civil, okay?

I've found AORsupport's comments to be responsible and well-measured.

[nootropi]

Look, abolitionist, lets face it: your comments are rediculous. I am not going to respond or participate in a discussion with you; you are AORSupport! Why don't you mosey on over to the AOR "Member forum?" Why don't you pose your questions and concerns there? They desperately need your Support in the AOR Member Forum; you will find yourself in a forum with one member: Yourself; whom you characterize as more "responsible and well measured" than I. I have to get back to work now, okay? Goodbye.

[abolitionist]

okay, well be sure to post if you find a study that conclusively answers the question of whether or not Idebenone actually increases oxidative damage to mtDNA after long-term use.

thanks!!

[AORsupport]

Your speculation is not compelling...nice try though...

I'm confused by your comment, here. There is no speculation in the post to which you are responding, only statements of fact (and, of course, of ethics, regarding the sale of poor-quality, unstable products):

That result is from six months ago  [sfty] ; considering the degradation rate of R+Lipoic Acid, the purity of your stock probably has diminished signifcantly; you should definately consider restocking if you have not recently.

Adam.

If R-LA degraded that quickly, it would be unethical to sell it, as it would have lost potency and have produced degradation products of unknown health impact well within the period that it would likely sit on a shelf. Also, it would mean that the expiration dates were fraudulent. Any material that degrades quickly likely either has a contaminant, or is so intrinsically unstable as to make it simply inappropriate for use in a dietary supplement for humans.

AOR R-Lipoic acid-containing supplements (including Network Synergy and Ortho•Mind) still meet full label claim 2 years after manufacture if properly stored. Leave them sitting on the windowsill or uncapped for this period, of course, and all bets are off. {emphasis added}

if properly stored

LOL.

???

AOR

[nootropi]

@AORSupport: I am not suprised that you could not interpret this...

You are really a character, I must admit.

Sometimes, AORSupport, you speak in a scientific tounge, and other times absolute bullsh*t. I would rather stay on the topic, honestly; but I will address your ??? (question) as you have addressed mine; I think it is only common courtesy to do unto others as others done unto you (cliche, yes).

You cannot expect intelligent people to believe the kind of BS as you are trying to sell us; namely that the company for whom you work for is *perfect;* that AOR is the only manufacturer of quality nootropics and life extensionist products.

Let me tell you this: I am no fool.

The objective value of a sheet of paper that you claim to be evidence that your company only has the *best quality,* supplements is non existent. For one, the ONLY sample (and might I add particular emphasis to this point) analysis which you characterize as an "independent" test is NOT independent! For a test to be independent it must be SUBMITTED by an independent, third party. In other words, one of your customers needs to submit a RANDOM sample of your product to IBC Labs to ensure the integrity of the test. All of this babble in which you speculate about shelf life is worthless; it is merely theoretical, not factual. It is a selling point, an advertisment, not a reflection of the quality of your product.

THAT is what I mean by "nice try."

Do you REALLY believe that if I took a two year old bottle of AOR's R-ALA that had been stored at room temperature and submitted a random capsule to IBC labs, that the result would come back consistent with your so called "independent" test? I think not. I declare you and your company fraudulent simply based on the grounds that you falsely characterize a NON independent test as an independent test on your website.

Any more questions?

???

Take care!

Adam

[AORsupport]

AORsupport, it appears that Idebenone increases the amount of NGF in the brain. Can you hypothesize whether increased NGF over an extended period of time in a healthy adult brain could increase the number of connections between neurons, and as a result increase mental capacity in certain areas?

From a PubMed search, the only study I can find indicating that idebenone increases NGF in the brain (as opposed to a review of this same result) is the following:


Nabeshima T.
Nerve growth factor strategy and preparation of animal model for Alzheimer-type senile dementia
Yakugaku Zasshi. 1995 Jul;115(7):499-512.

We demonstrate here that the oral administration of ... idebenone ... induced the increase in NGF protein and mRNA, and in choline acetyltransferase activity, in basal forebrain-lesioned and aged rats, but not in intact young rats. These drugs also ameliorated the behavioral deficits in habituation, water maze, and passive avoidance tasks in these animals.

The aged rats were 24 mo old -- roughly equivalent to a 65-76-year-old human. Therefore, unless you are well into a government old age pension , I don't see any reason to believe that idebenone actually will increase NGF in your brain. Since, by contrast, animal studies show that NGF can be increased by voluntary exercise (Brain Res 726(1-2):49-56), I would suggest going for a jog instead.

Even if I saw clear evidence that idebenone did increase NGF or yield actual cognitive functional improvements in normal, healthy humans, I would not even so consider it to be a fair bet against the specter of increases in mitochondrial ROS generation. As I have said before, there would be nothing more bitterly ironic than to take drugs or supplements to enhance one's quality or quantity of life, only to have quality or quantity of life stolen away by those very substances. In our present state of knowledge, I simply cannot see that idebenone is a sensible risk.

To your health!

AOR

[nootropi]

But, cosmos, keep in mind that the young rats that are used in the referenced study were 6 weeks old, or Fisher rats; this is the equivalent of a four year old human. At the age of 25 (my age), a rat equivalent age is 18 months (according to Dr Arun Kumar HS who I would trust a bit more than AORSupports speculative guesswork) which is pretty close to 22 months old. In other words, in this case AORSupport is wrong with his age interpretation. Therefore it is very likely that there will be an increase in my brain...

    Dear Kally O'Reilly

    Please find the table describing the answers to your question.

    These are my personal speculation based on my experience as a veterinarian and working with laboratory rat for the last 10 years.

    Human Age Rat Age
    6 months 24 days
    1 year 45 days
    3 years 2-21/2 months
    10 years 7 months
    15 years 10 months
    25 years 16-18 months

    Dr Arun Kumar HS
    Cardiovascular & Receptorology Lab
    Dept of Pharmacology & Toxicology
    National Institute of Pharmaceutical Education & Research,
    Phase X, Mohali, Punjab: 160062, India.
    Ph: 0172-2214682 ext 2041.
    URL:www.geocities.com\hsarunk

[nootropi]

Cosmos, I will try to be as articulate as possible here.

My method is not to make myself smarter through nootropics, but to nurture the mechansims involved in the memorization process and enhance the brains ability to process data. Case in point; I will not divulge my entire life story here, but I will briefly give you an account of my experiences with nootropics, what I have gained from their use, and what has changed in my life since I started the particular regime that I currently employ. I have already divluged my stack to you privately, so bear those drugs in mind as I continue.

If you spend a majority of your free time thinking, and find yourself unable to meet the demands of your own mind; in other words, you would like to achieve a tangible level of "intelligence," but find yourself limited by the predetermined makeup of your brain; ie you can't study for long enough, and when you do you cannot process advanced topics and end up frustrated as a result, then what you need to do is isolate exactly what is wrong with your mind. I know this sounds a little abstract---it has to be---but keep following...

For me, I noticed intitally in my first years of returning to school after basically surviving through drug abuse (crack, meth, benzos, etc), that I had a lot of trouble really concentrating. What does this mean? I could not focus on something entirely for any significant period of time. Enter mathematics: a very time consuming, attention demanding practice. I managed to get my hands on some Strattera from a friend of mine. I took it and I was able to focus in a way I never had before; it was really amazing. However, my memory was no good. Short term, no good. Long term, well, okay, but to succeed in my chosen field of study I needed to remember about 1000 formulas. So after getting a prescription for Strattera I managed to coerce my Pdoc to prescribe aricept for me. So the memory started to function better. But, my reaction time was terrible. So I isolated that part, and found the racetams, which also help with short term memory.

I could proceed and tell you my whole life story; but I wont. I will conclude here. You will not be able to make yourself any smarter than you already are. However, if you are sharp enough at recognizing what your weaknesses are, then you can pinpoint where your deficiencies are, one by one. As soon as you figure out one weakness, and how to overcome it, then often another one presents itself. Often there is a drug available that is able to aid you in overcoming such difficulties; for other weaknesses, there are no such drugs. Luckily, there has been a plethora of research into the field of the human brain; and if you know yours well enough, then you can begin fixing what you think is broken. I can honestly tell you today that hard work and dedication alone are not what makes me a success. I have to attribute my success to the drugs that I take AND the hard work and dedication. This is not hard for me to say because I feel that I know the functionality of my brain, where it has improved and how well I can remember advanced theorems far later than ever before.

In summary, what I am saying is that if you do not know what your weaknesses are (mentally), then you wont know what to fix and you will be running around in circles plugging holes that might not need to be plugged. You need to recognize what you want your brain to do, what it can and can't do already, and what drug(s) might help you do the things you want to do. But you need to be able to have enough determination to stick it out.

Take care,

Adam [thumb]

[nootropi]

Well I don't know. What are your academic goals? I do not know why you turned down my offer about sending you some *free* samples of strattera. It is good stuff for studying, but TERRIBLE for sex! Premature ejaculation!

[shpongled]

I'm trying to concieve of ways of overcoming what seems to be the inflexibility of the brain to substantially expand beyond it's genetic parameters. There are numerous substances which seem to repair or regenerate damaged or degraded brains but it seems more difficult to improve the mental capacity of a young healthy brain.

As Adam said, what you want to look for does depend a lot on your goals and what you think your deficits are. In my case, my primary goal right now is reducing sleep requirements and keeping a regular sleep schedule, and to a lesser extent, increasing motivation. I'm not too concerned about increasing memory, learning, etc. as that all comes to me naturally (although my short-term memory could probably use some work). Still, I find nootropics very interesting, and any extra edge is of benefit.

I think one of the major problems is in defining a "young, healthy" brain. There is really no such thing as a perfectly healthy brain. Every day, you are subjected to a variety of insults and stressors. "Young, healthy" brains can generally handle these stressors more effectively. So the main difference is the point at which mental capacity begins to break down. Nootropics aren't going to increase your ability to remember a three digit number, as they would someone with Alzheimer's. However, they will increase your ability to perform complex tasks - multitasking, memorizing a large amount in a small period of time, and so on. With all the reading I've been doing, I've been starting to get a better idea of how nootropics affect healthy people. Take multitasking for example - a person could do three tasks individually, and a nootropic would not improve performance on any of them. However, a nootropic would increase the ability to perform all of the tasks at the same time, or improve performance on one of the tasks that normally becomes much more difficult when multitasking. Another example is the differences between study groups. Nootropics will inevitably cause greater improvements in young/healthy people subjected to great amounts of stress, for example, college students during finals week. So what you are essentially doing is not improving your intelligence per se, but increasing your ability to handle situations which normally cause performance decrements, if that makes sense.