79 replies to this topic

[AORsupport]

But, cosmos, keep in mind that the young rats that are used in the referenced study were 6 weeks old, or Fisher rats; this is the equivalent of a four year old human.  At the age of 25 (my age), a rat equivalent age is 18 months (according to  Dr Arun Kumar HS who I would trust a bit more than AORSupports speculative guesswork) which is pretty close to 22 months old.  In other words, in this case AORSupport is wrong with his age interpretation.  Therefore it is very likely that there will be an increase in my brain...

adamp2p, I'm pleased to see you making a substantive argument here, and hope that this will be more representative of our interactions in the future. However, with all due respect to Dr. Kumar, I must submit that this is not a reasonable extrapolation of the available life history data. It is worth noting, perhaps, that s/he is a veterinarian, not a biogerontologist. This page from the Rat Genome Database indicates that othe F344 rat (the strain most commonly used in lifespan studies) has a median or mean lifespan in the range of 24-31 months:

http://rgd.mcw.edu/t...ew.cgi?id=60994

The current mean lifespan of persons in industrialized countries is ~75-85 years, and could perhaps be pushed a few years longer with better medical care (excluding true anti-aging medicine, which if available would be 'cheating' ). Hence, the range of reasonable extrapolations places 24-month-old rats at a human equivalent of 58-85 years.

Similarly, when researchers at the USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging decided to ask the question, "Is late-life caloric restriction beneficial?", they did so by comparing "Survival rates and terminal pathology ... between a cohort of 17 continually ad libitum fed Long Evans rats and a cohort of 18 Long Evans rats, which were gradually introduced to 33% restriction in diet consumption at 18 months of age" (reference: Aging Clin Exp Res 1995 Apr;7(2):136-9). So 18 months of age is already "late life" in these rats, not similar to a 25-year-old human.

Just poking around on PubMed confirms that this is widely accepted in the scientific community. For instance, an easy PubMed on the search "rats AND young AND old" (no quotes)

Arterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol. 2004 Jun 3 [Epub ahead of print]
Rat Aortic MCP-1 and Its Receptor CCR2 Increase With Age and Alter Vascular Smooth Muscle Cell Function.
Spinetti G, Wang M, Monticone R, Zhang J, Zhao D, Lakatta EG.

With age, rat arterial walls thicken and vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMCs) exhibit enhanced migration and proliferation. Monocyte chemotactic protein-1 (MCP-1) affects these VSMC properties in vitro. Because arterial angiotensin II, which induces MCP-1 expression, increases with age, we hypothesized that aortic MCP-1 and its receptor CCR2 are also upregulated and affect VSMC properties. METHODS AND RESULTS: Both MCP-1 and CCR2 mRNAs and proteins increased in old (30-month) versus young (8-month) F344xBN rat aortas in vivo ...


Physiol Behav. 2004 Jun;81(4):569-76.
Reduced thirst in old, thermally dehydrated rats.
Whyte DG, Thunhorst RL, Johnson AK.

Water intake and blood parameters of young (7-month) and old (23-month) male Brown Norway rats were assessed following a period of thermal dehydration.


J Appl Physiol. 2004 May 28 [Epub ahead of print]
AGE-RELATED ALTERATIONS IN NOS AND OXIDATIVE STRESS IN MESENTERIC ARTERIES FROM MALE AND FEMALE RATS.
Sullivan JC, Loomis ED, Collins M, Imig JD, Inscho EW, Pollock JS.

The purpose of this study was to determine if the effects of aging on NOS, oxidative stress, and vascular function are different in males and females. Mesenteric arteries from young (3 month) and old (24 month), male and female F344/BN rats were studied.

... etc. Finally, it is of note that the whole point of comparing the effects of idebenone on NGF in young or old rats in this experiment was as a "strategy and preparation of animal model for Alzheimer-type senile dementia"; they consider a 24-month-old rat to be a model of senile dementia, and the young animals are used as a contrast.

To your health!

AOR

(Dr. Kumar's post:)

   

    These are my personal speculation based on my experience as a veterinarian and working with laboratory rat for the last 10 years.

    Human Age Rat Age
    6 months 24 days
    1 year 45 days
    3 years 2-21/2 months
    10 years 7 months
    15 years 10 months
    25 years 16-18 months

 

[nootropi]

First I must say that your stabbing remarks make you look quite desperate. Please note that I am not selling anything at this site (and you are) so you might want to watch your comments; they reek of anger and bitterness: you just don't like being wrong, it's that simple.

Your argument is based on what? Huh? Apparently you are not able to see that 3 rat months are, according to Dr. Kumar, 5 human years. And clearly between 16 moths and 24 months there are 8 months, right? So that could amount to your discrepancy. And who ever said that the rat is a perfect model human aging? I disagree with you on several points; however, you act as if your speculation is far better than anybody else's, which is an arrogant approach, one I would rather not interact with.

Take care!

[hc1976]

you act as if your speculation is far better than anybody else's, which is an arrogant approach, one I would rather not interact with.

His speculations are FAR better than yours. I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but a lot of research are done on animals and then theorized to humans.

And i think you're the one that's angry and even immature in this thread.

But i'll bring up a point that nobody seems to have done in this thread yet... your tests for purity means absolutely nothing, because you told Rizzer ahead of time that you were going to have his stuff tested. He could have given you a more pure sample because he knew it was going to be tested, and then cut the rest with filler. I haven't looked at AORSupport's assays' yet, but if the testing sample was also small, then again, it means absolutely nothing. If you want to see proper testing, look at 1fast400.

[nootropi]

THANK YOU for sharing you views with us. As this is your first post in this forum, I am suspicious of the integrity of your post.

Nice try, very funny. Oh, and exactly how am I angry?

My test for purity means nothing? As far as I am concerned, your comments are intended to start an argument. I am not going to address your questions, because they really have no pertinence to the topic at hand.

There is no dispute: smi2le is for real. I am not the only person in these forums to have excellent experiences with him and his products. However, nobody in these forums has purchased (and might I add with emphasis) ANY AOR products.

If you are so emotionally involved in this topic, why don't you conduct your own indepedent testing and share the results with us? Because, in essence, your contribution to this discussion has no value unless you have something else besides your opinion. Show me: don't tell me.

[nootropi]

you act as if your speculation is far better than anybody else's, which is an arrogant approach, one I would rather not interact with.

His speculations are FAR better than yours. I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but a lot of research are done on animals and then theorized to humans.

And i think you're the one that's angry and even immature in this thread.

But i'll bring up a point that nobody seems to have done in this thread yet... your tests for purity means absolutely nothing, because you told Rizzer ahead of time that you were going to have his stuff tested. He could have given you a more pure sample because he knew it was going to be tested, and then cut the rest with filler. I haven't looked at AORSupport's assays' yet, but if the testing sample was also small, then again, it means absolutely nothing. If you want to see proper testing, look at 1fast400.

After rereading your comments, I decided I will reply to your comments.

your tests for purity means absolutely nothing, because you told Rizzer ahead of time that you were going to have his stuff tested.

Yes, this is true; however, I ordered 5 different chemicals from Rizzer. I did not disclose to Rizzer which substance I was going to have evaluated, therefore my selction was random; thus, the result indeed has integrity. The real issue is the purity of the sample submitted; not what I told him or he told me; that is just talk, and has no singificance whatsoever in this matter.
Editorial:
All we have in this world are claims. Is there is evidence to substantiate a claim, then is can be considered a valid claim. However, if evidence is presented with a bias, often the evidence is disregarded. In the case of AOR's so called "independent test", there is a clear confict of interest because the party submitting the sample is not independent. Therefore the result is diregarded.

If you want to see proper testing, look at 1fast400.

I have no issues with 1fast400. As far as I am concerned, they are a reputable company. I myself have ordered several products from 1fast400, and I can testify that they have an excellent service. However, 1fast400 only posts a copy of the COA of their product on the web; they do not themselves submit samples to Integratedbiomolecule corp, nor do they encourage their customers to. What I think is the best quality control measure is the have customers, whom have no affiliiation with the respective supplement company, submit the samples. If they can offer the individual store credit plus interest for the amount of the tests and assoicated expenses, that would bring a whole new meaning to the definition of quality service and integrity in the supplement industry. Any company that takes this stand, in my opinion, deserves due credit. And I think I can say with confidence that several members of this forum will awknowlege that I am undoubtedly an independent party, and find value in the fact that I go through all of these measures to ensure quality, and are happy to see that I submitted a sample of Rizzer's product and shared the result.

You need to read this article.

[nootropi]

^^ Pardon my spelling errors above. I am typing on a small Mac laptop and cannot read from the screen as well as I would like.

[shpongled]

While offering to pay for independent testing is good from a business standpoint for a small, nonestablished company, it isn't really for a bigger company like 1Fast/BN, as we would just be paying for testing for a product that we already know is pure. We already get many of the powders tested by a third party to begin with (any time the purity is in question). Mike has also paid for independent testing of many other supplements from other supplement companies, most of which we sell (see http://www.labelclaimstesting.com). There is certainly a lot more quality control going on than most of the competitors: products are tested by a third party before they are sold. And, just try asking BAC for a COA. Not saying there aren't plenty of good reasons to support a company that offers to pay for testing, and also to support small/growing businesses, I just think that 1fast has helped a lot in establishing more integrity in the industry, which shouldn't be discounted either.

[nootropi]

While offering to pay for independent testing is good from a business standpoint for a small, nonestablished company, it isn't really for a bigger company like 1Fast/BN, as we would just be paying for testing for a product that we already know is pure. We already get many of the powders tested by a third party to begin with (any time the purity is in question). Mike has also paid for independent testing of many other supplements from other supplement companies, most of which we sell (see http://www.labelclaimstesting.com). There is certainly a lot more quality control going on than most of the competitors: products are tested by a third party before they are sold. And, just try asking BAC for a COA. Not saying there aren't plenty of good reasons to support a company that offers to pay for testing, and also to support small/growing businesses, I just think that 1fast has helped a lot in establishing more integrity in the industry, which shouldn't be discounted either.

We in the eyes of the public, is not "us." If indeed 1fast400 already pays for independent third party verification of quality and freedom from contaminants, then this should be well documented and the results should be available to the consumer. BUT-- then how and where can the consumer verify that these "tests" take place and that what is tested is what is purchased?

A "third party" is one not affiliated with the profiting party; clearly there exists a conflict of interest.

Here I offer my own funds to verify the claims of any nootropic that I purchase off of the internet, in exchange for product. I consider myself trusted in these forums, because I have proven that I have no affiliation with any of the supplement providers. If 1fast400 wants to offer me product for the amount of third party tests, I will be pleased to submit a random sample and share the results here and at any other supplement forum. It is my firm belief that consumer oriented third party testing would bring about enormous confidence in the respective company that offers this opportunity to the consumer, granted s/he is trusted not to be affiliated with any profiting party; thus it is in their best interest to offer this opportunity.

Take care,

Adam

[watch]

Today I am getting some R-ALA, Centrophenoxine, and Pyritinol from Smi2le.biz. I plan on having the R-ALA tested by IBC labs. I will post the results here.

Nootropi, did you eventually have the R-lipoic acid from smi2le tested and if so, what were the results?

[nootropi]

Before I answer your question, I would like to draw your attention to what David Tolson says here, then compare this with the findings my investigation

While offering to pay for independent testing is good from a business standpoint for a small, nonestablished company, it isn't really for a bigger company like 1Fast/BN, as we would just be paying for testing for a product that we already know is pure. We already get many of the powders tested by a third party to begin with (any time the purity is in question). Mike has also paid for independent testing of many other supplements from other supplement companies, most of which we sell (see http://www.labelclaimstesting.com). There is certainly a lot more quality control going on than most of the competitors: products are tested by a third party before they are sold. And, just try asking BAC for a COA. Not saying there aren't plenty of good reasons to support a company that offers to pay for testing, and also to support small/growing businesses, I just think that 1fast has helped a lot in establishing more integrity in the industry, which shouldn't be discounted either.

After you read David Tolson's quote CLICK HERE

I have proven that 1fast400 does not maintain labelclaimstesting.com anymore. The most recent test is from November 2003 and there ARE NO NOOTROPICS!!!

I do admit there are some assays at labelclaimstesting; however, I DO NOT consider testing a couple of cereal/protein bars in 2003 to be sufficient to make a claim like David did above.

1fast400 only uploads scanned images of COA's from Chinese powder dealers. And they don't even get 99% often. Like take a look at the COA of their ALCAR; it is a 98% product.


You see, when companies are as purely profit motivated, they buy the cheaper product and not the purer product.

You should demand from your supplement provider they only purchase powders of 99% or greater purity. Do ask for the COA, that will at least tell you what the "claimed" purity is.

Edited by nootropi, 18 September 2004 - 10:36 PM.

[nootropi]

Today I am getting some R-ALA, Centrophenoxine, and Pyritinol from Smi2le.biz. I plan on having the R-ALA tested by IBC labs. I will post the results here.

Nootropi, did you eventually have the R-lipoic acid from smi2le tested and if so, what were the results?

No, I never submitted a sample of Rizzer's RALA because his is the same as geronova's.

[bigk]

Before I answer your question, I would like to draw your attention to what David Tolson says here, then compare this with the findings my investigation

While offering to pay for independent testing is good from a business standpoint for a small, nonestablished company, it isn't really for a bigger company like 1Fast/BN, as we would just be paying for testing for a product that we already know is pure. We already get many of the powders tested by a third party to begin with (any time the purity is in question). Mike has also paid for independent testing of many other supplements from other supplement companies, most of which we sell (see http://www.labelclaimstesting.com). There is certainly a lot more quality control going on than most of the competitors: products are tested by a third party before they are sold. And, just try asking BAC for a COA. Not saying there aren't plenty of good reasons to support a company that offers to pay for testing, and also to support small/growing businesses, I just think that 1fast has helped a lot in establishing more integrity in the industry, which shouldn't be discounted either.

After you read David Tolson's quote CLICK HERE

I have proven that 1fast400 does not maintain labelclaimstesting.com anymore. The most recent test is from November 2003 and there ARE NO NOOTROPICS!!!

I do admit there are some assays at labelclaimstesting; however, I DO NOT consider testing a couple of cereal/protein bars in 2003 to be sufficient to make a claim like David did above.

1fast400 only uploads scanned images of COA's from Chinese powder dealers. And they don't even get 99% often. Like take a look at the COA of their ALCAR; it is a 98% product.


You see, when companies are as purely profit motivated, they buy the cheaper product and not the purer product.

You should demand from your supplement provider they only purchase powders of 99% or greater purity. Do ask for the COA, that will at least tell you what the "claimed" purity is.

The column on the right side are the test results, the left side is the specification(ranges the results should fall under, or between).

[nootropi]

The column on the right side are the test results, the left side is the specification(ranges the results should fall under, or between).

Regardless, that is the assay according to the Chinese powder seller, which does not make it particularly credible; however, thanks for pointing that out.

[intelligence]

Alright nootropi... what i have to say may or may not be misconstrued as subjective bs in your terms but nonetheless i am going to post. as a non-biased 3rd party individual reading through these posts in an attempt to further amplify my current knowledge of these drugs, i have found your posts in particular to be more emotionally charged and self driven than any others on this site. Your responses tend to be futile and childish (note the rat argument as an example where when proven 100% wrong as to the comparitive age of rats you immediately respond by restating your invalid claim) and where you are found to be mistaken in your knowledge, you lash out immediately with nonsensical insults to the persons validity and intelligence. Then you find ways to further your own beliefs by reminding everyone in this forum that you are in fact not associated with selling anything, which is splendid, despite the fact that you use this claim to defend nearly every attack brought upon you. I am not trying to start a conflict. I am not trying to instigate emotions... and furthermore I am certainly not trying to attack your personal standpoints on any of these issues. I am only trying to point out that as a logical arguer you fall unbelievably short of unbiased and fail miserably at promoting the intellectual growth of any of the topics which i have observed.

[jubai]

You, my friend, are very... - How shall we say?
... .. Late to this thread?


Have a look around. You might find something that fits, your, , needs.


Really. Stay a, hôh, while!

[jaydfox]

Um, nootropi is currently a banned user, so he can't really respond to what you're saying. Just thought I'd point that out, since your first and only post here is to criticize nootropi.

[tradewinds]

Most of this post was made already a while back, but was deleted by LifeMirage. This is a message from Adam.

I need to start with an apology; to scottl, stellar, section8, and
Bruce (Klein); and any other member of the forums who had to witness
my dramatic scene last year. Too much dopamine.

To scottl for acting in a manner that was immature and totally out of
line; to stellar and section8 for being correct with respect to my
dopamine intensive stack causing me a lot of negative side effects and
anxiety; this anxiety led me to prescribe myself benzodiazepines,
which caused what I consider a toxic effect along with all of the
dopamine enhancers I was taking at the time. This neurotoxic effect
persisted throughout the summer, and throughout the fall; when I was
prescribed 3 milligrams of clonazepam per day to help me deal with the
anxiety stemming from my encounter with the California Food and Drug
Administration. I probably did some serious brain damage; and I am
not sure my current "stack" will be able to compensate...

And I need to publicly apologize to Bruce for making silly (and
unwarranted) comments this summer about his administrative abilities;
I was getting especially personal about supplement transactions
occurring in the Imminst forums that could potentially endanger the
lives of the full members (and the "free riders" too); however, it was
especially ironic that I was making such comments meanwhile
demonstrating my oh so excellent "administrative abilities" that got
me in some trouble with the government (and could have sent me to
prison for several years)! My logical abilities were obviously
impaired...smoking cigarettes (organic or not!) meanwhile trying to
optimize my stack of K-RALA + ALCAR, olive leaf extract; oh yeah,
pyridoxmine too...reallly makes a lot of sense...and telling everyone
else to watch out for those contaminants...yeah.. sure...I quit smoking
in January.

Also, the sponsor for the forums: Relentless Improvement uses only
pharmaceutical grade suppliers; and now has their own brand of
pharmaceutical grade nootropics. I also owe an apology or two (or
three!) to AORsupport for all of the ad hominem attacks I
made on him; although our exchanges in the old days of the forums were
informative to myself and others; I was rude (and dead wrong, in many
cases); although AORsupport sells supplements, he is a foremost authority on
effective and safe supplementation, and certainly substantiates his
claims with several scientific references. This particular discussion
in one in which I am arguing with the wrong person...I have serious
respect and admiration for AORsupport and he has been a great inspiration
for me; it took me a while to see he knows his field (have you guys
ever read the unbelievable articles he wrote for AOR?! They are
amazing!) By the way, I do not take idebenone anymore.

http://www.aor.ca/magazines2.php

I recognize my faults and have since tried to apologize to Bruce and
scottl on several occasions, and am currntly trying to work with the
leaders of the Institute to seek solutions and move forward. I also
have to apologize to Shane (Oversoul711) for calling him all summer
and harassing him with my maniacal delusions. I also wrote a pretty
freaky email or two to Bruce in my neurotoxic state that I hope he
won't publish…(whoops, I already did...hey Bruce, can you edit that?)

I was contacted by "tradewinds" a couple of weeks ago when he pointed
out to me that there was some substantial drama in the forums about
me, where folks apparently think we are the same person. Well, thanks
for thinking of me, but we are not the same person; tradewinds is in
Texas, and I am in Los Angeles; you are welcome to contact tradewinds
by personal message and he will give you his phone number or conduct a
conference call with the three of us to verify as I can tell it is
very important for some of you to verify we are not the same person;
some more irony is the fact that tradewinds' first name is also Adam!

Yes, the recent LifeMirage episode is still passing. I personally
asked him to come forward and tell folks the truth a week before I
notified Leadership. I never knew he would leverage a personal attack
as vicious as he did in Leadership proceedings. He characterized me
as "obsessed with him and ImmInst." This was hardly the case. I do
not tolerate fraud or lies, and never have. I used to ask LifeMirage
for references as to where to purchase products from; and for his MD;
as if was really an MD I could use his name to promote products.
LifeMirage promoted the mistruth that "all Chinese powders are created
equal" when this hardly represents reality; which made me really
question his ethics and education.

Oversoul711 is too busy going to school part time, working two jobs,
and training for Olympic weightlifting to work with nootropikreations
extensively and function as a company spokesperson, I offered
tradewinds the interim position, and he has accepted. Oversoul711
(Shane) will be back around soon enough though.
Nootropikreations went from a single, isolated investment on 1 single
kilogram of oxiracetam to what it is today with no other cash
investment; unless you include the individual whom purchased the
encapsulation machine for me (I won't be using this anymore as it
could get me into some serious trouble).

Not to get too dramatic, but I would like to proudly state formally
that my Food and Drug encounter resulted in no fines or jail time
whatsoever, and all products were returned to me approximately six
months later.

I stated these comments to djk in the rec.drugs.smart google group,
and I guess they apply to readers here as well:

http://groups.google...8cb4a3d773f69f2

The only updates I have for the community is that now there are now
more sources of nootropics that are certified purity. I also have
proof that there is a hell of a lot of crap floating around this
market. See the end of the post to learn more about these inferior
products. These results merely prove that any company who is not
performing independent analysis could very well have such crap in
their inventory! I promised not to go after companies that sell
questionable imported products, and I will not, I will merely
recommend the companies who do use independent testing, as it is
counter intuitive to be ingesting unsafe supplements. It is also just
plain stupid to be acting the way I was about these issues, and taking
too many supplements is also just plain stupid. Make sure what you put
into your body is safe and high quality, that's all that matters. It
might cost you a little more, but we only have one body and one brain
after all.

Relentless Improvement beat my company to the HPLC and furthermore,
provide products that are certified x>99% purity. Not only that, they
have performed full microbiological assays (yeast and molds, too!),
and assays for heavy metal content.

All I can certify about the purity of my nootropics is that they are
government grade! It is flattering that the government ended up
returning all my products to me. They tried to intimidate me when they
took my products and told me that they would be testing them. So I was
very worried that I was going to prison because I could not afford
HPLC assays and microbiological assays on my products, but my supplier
assured me the products would pass government inspection. Even though
the products were on the floor in Aluminum PE bags, they still came
out to be pure. This was vindicating for me, because I chose only
quality suppliers like Sabinsa Corporation, American Lecithin Company,
and GeroNova Inc. I only could afford USP heavy metal and melting
point assays, but they turned out to be enough. Now I have the capital
to perform HPLC assays as I have negotiated with a reputable lab
forHPLC, microbiological assays, and USP heavy metals for a very
reasonable price.

Anybody who would like to see these independent assays (and several
more), and you must have a fast internet connection to view these:

http://nootropics.ip...1856

Briefly, here are a summary of their independent results from American
Analytical Chemistry Laboratories:

Aniracetam: 99.55% by HPLC, no microbiological content, nor lead
Piracetam: 100% by HPLC, no microbiological content, nor lead

Idebenone, Centrophenoxine HCL, and Pyritinol results from ExperTox
laboratories:

no different from "their" reference standards (however, I am still
unclear who's reference standards these are...They do not state a
quantitative purity result); what I can say is
that there is no microbiological content, nor heavy metals. Full HPLC
results are available for these assays here:

http://nootropics.ip...findpost&p=1877

Here are some results from a company that started out well, possibly
with good intentions to sell their customers high quality products;
however, the results of their assays only show that the products that
they sell are low in purity and demonstrates their inability to demand
pharmaceutical grade (and NON expired!) products to begin with. Now
they have ceased using independent analysis altogether! They have had
"pending" assays for months now, many of their supplier COAs look made
in Word and are not signed, and many COA links are totally dead, which
is suspicious.

My feelings on this issue/company:

I now can extol the only ones whom do INDEPENDENTLY test their
imported Chinese powders and furthermore only sell products with
certified x>99% purity (thanks Jay!). These results were horrible –
and this particular company went ahead and sold these inferior
products to consumers and show off these inferior assays in an attempt
to demonstrate their products' integrity when all these assays prove
is that this market is full of substandard products and they happen to
have them in their inventory! This company tested independently
Oxiracetam by mass spectrometry – the results were 96.25% when the COA
read 99.1% (this is a serious discrepancy, what is the other 3.75%?)
-- and they posted these results three times in the same page -- what
are we, stupid?; their independent assay of
Aniracetam came out to ~97.5% (the COA read ~97.5%, I do not know why
they bothered testing or purchasing inferior material in the first
place (we want the COA to claim 99%+!)! What is the remaining 2.5%, it
can't all be moisture!), and an independent centrophenoxine assay came
out to be 86.75% -- this may be good material because the HCL part of
the centrophenoxine did not appear to be accounted for – however –they
purchased then assayed raw material that was past expiration! This
company has since ceased using independent analysis altogether
and resorted to their "in house melting point test," which defeats the
entire purpose of independent testing (it needs to be independent!)
Not that my company has HPLC'd any imported nootropics yet; however,
if I do have results of 97.5% and 96.25% this would be an
embarrassment! Out of all of their assays, ONLY their idebenone was
acceptable. They did perform the necessary testing; however, they
stopped where they should have just started.

http://nootropics.ip...findpost&p=1882

That's it for my editorial. I am trying to come back in a different
incarnation. One not rude, ad hominem free, and less vulgar.

Edited by AORsupport, 21 March 2006 - 01:31 PM.

[jaydfox]

BTW, for anyone concerned that tradewinds posted this on bahalf of the banned member nootropi, I should say that he cleared it with a couple members of leadership (myself included) first, a couple days ago. He was going to wait, but I can see that this "intelligence" person prompted this rebuttal.

It's mostly an apology of sorts, as well as a rebuttal to attacks made on his name/business in his absense, today and previously (especially by LifeMirage, e.g., in the "LifeMirage = Misrepresenting?" discussion). This is the only post that will be allowed through the ban, so long as people refrain from attacking him again.

[intelligence]

I apologize for all of my comments and only reacted the way i did in order to relieve the tension that had built from reading so many emotionally charged posts by this nootropi character... i realize now that my post was an ignorant and trite response to a matter i should have concluded was already dealt with... i appreciate the reactions and further apologize for my somewhat hypocritical post... Keep the knowledge flowing through here because its an amazing thing to see so many people communicating the ability to enhance ourselves as it fuels the engine driving the next era in human evolution...