• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 11 votes

Benefits - real or illusory - and side effects to stimulating NGF


  • Please log in to reply
291 replies to this topic

#91 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 21 April 2010 - 05:28 PM

The Lion's Mane mycelia is grown on a base of organic brown rice. It is covered with the menstruum a combination of alcohol and water then macerated for at least 2 weeks. Product is pressed, filtered then bottled.

My chemistry is a little rusty, but I think mixing alcohol and water doesn't necessarily give you the same solubility profile as both separately. In that regard, the Cordyceps etc. product might be a better extract (in the sense of containing the most actives). Though this is entirely mycelium, so wouldn't have the possibly cytotoxic concerns.

I take 1.2 g/day in 4 doses and I suspect that it acts as a blood thinner (though the reason I got some mild nose bleeding is that this is one among many blood thinners I happen to take).

What form/product do you take? And why do you suspect it of being a blood thinner, if you're also taking a number of substances you know to have this property?

Edited by chrono, 21 April 2010 - 06:39 PM.


#92 babcock

  • Guest
  • 299 posts
  • 73
  • Location:USA

Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:13 PM

My chemistry is a little rusty, but I think mixing alcohol and water doesn't necessarily give you the same solubility profile as both separately. In that regard, the Cordyceps etc. product might be a better extract (in the sense of containing the most actives. Though this is entirely mycelium, so wouldn't have the possibly cytotoxic concerns.


Yea wasn't a terribly helpful response...

On another note, Anyone look into testosterone supplementation for neuro-protection?

Link to absolutebodybuilding forums post with two articles from studies done on neuro-protection derived from testosterone:

http://www.absoluteb...protection.html

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#93 mentatpsi

  • Guest
  • 904 posts
  • 36
  • Location:Philadelphia, USA

Posted 21 April 2010 - 06:40 PM

I'm glad this topic is soaring in the manner it deserves, thanks guys for promoting that growth. Also thanks chrono for taking the time to do more time consuming research.
A couple points I wanted to make.

1.) I have found different reactions depending on time taken, such that a day dose promotes a more energetic effect the moment the lethargy wears out. At night however I find myself tired throughout the next day. I am wondering for such a cause if taking it at night is really as benefical as suggested. Given that I personally believe the secretion of NGF and its application in the brain might be dependent on the activities of the individual throughout the day. It's a theory I had awhile back, but it makes logical sense.

2.) What of the fear of increased risks of cancer? Any type of substance promoting cell growth should be taken with a level of hesitance. The new formulation of New Chapter contains Chaga whose application, from my reading, seems more pertaining to cancer rather than psychological. Though it does seem to have a sedative nature. This introduction leads me to wonder if New Chapter has concerns in regard to this possibility. Can anyone address this concern?

Link on Chaga from my blog: Chaga Mushroom

#94 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:22 PM

Nice to see you again, mentat! I hope you'll check back in occasionally if you have the time; one reason I'm trying to be verbose in my research is so other brains can catch things I miss and interpret with different pools of knowledge.

My feeling at the moment is that Lion's Mane has a bidirectional relationship with cancer. On the one hand, a system-wide increase in NGF could probably accelerate the growth of existing cancers and increase their cell viability (in one case, inhibiting NGF was shown to slow the spread of breast cancer cells and encourage their apoptosis). But as these are endogenous growth factors (well, except the exo-bipolymer) they're already constantly at work in the body, and I've seen nothing to suggest that they're capable of causing cancer.

On the other hand, the other beta-glucans and polysaccharides in Lion's Mane have been shown to have some impressive immunomodulating action, including the strong possibility of antitumor and antimutagenic properties (see the NK paper above, as well as 16782550, for starters). I believe these are more prevalent in the fruiting body, but could also be obtained from other mushrooms like chaga or reishi, perhaps.

You raise an excellent point though, and this should be kept in mind when considering enhancing NGF. If you have cancer, it's probably a bad idea. If not, adding preventative supplements is a good idea, to (possibly) counter the risk of accelerated growth.

I still need to read a lot more about the up/down/dys-regulation of NGF, but I've been wondering if cycling NGF inducers might be beneficial to avoid tolerance. This might be another good reason to build some breaks into the regimen, to avoid any runaway cell growth.

Can you add any more details about the immediate subjective effects? I've been picturing this only in terms of long-term neurological benefit. How long does the fatigue (brain fog?) last, and how severe is it?

#95 mentatpsi

  • Guest
  • 904 posts
  • 36
  • Location:Philadelphia, USA

Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:51 PM

Of course, this has been one of my most enjoyed topics.

An excellent reply, I had the same pondering in regards to cancer since it does seem to have anti-cancer effects through NK increasing and various other means. However, it still seems to be a slight cause for concern without the introduction of other compounds to reduce risks through further immunomodulating effects, such as Jiaogulan.

In regards to the fatigue, the word is a difficult one to use, I'd call it a level of lethargy but an alteration in cognitive functioning and a heightening of perceptiveness (colors brighter and spatial processing changes). I haven't taken it in awhile since sometimes there is a slowing of thought but a deepening of the vividness of it. At times when thoughts require speed it might not be beneficial.

At night it has at times sponsored night terrors which might be in regards to adrenal changes. Overtime adaptations take place which reduce the effects of the anxiety. However, taking it in the morning might allow for the utilization of increased adrenal functioning (stress responses) throughout the daye. An adaptogen might provide benefit if this does arise and provide discomfort. I have also seen a more active mind at times when eyes are closed.

I would be interested of knowing its application in strength training and exercising since many compounds seem to benefit from the introduction of the physiological effects of increased work production (cardiovascular changes for instance). Not only for increased reps but also how it alters the cognitive effects.

Edited by mentatpsi, 21 April 2010 - 07:54 PM.


#96 phernandez

  • Guest
  • 33 posts
  • 1

Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:15 PM

To prevent allergies and allergic reaction, I now recommend eating a few satsuma orange slices a day.

Comparative evaluation of 12 immature citrus fruit extracts for the inhibition of cytochrome P450 isoform activities.
Biol Pharm Bull. 2008 May;31(5):925-30.

No Lion's Mane for me until its Satsuma season this winter when I have those on-hand.

Unlike grapefruits and other citruses which can deleteriously affect other medicines by inhibiting cytochrome p450, satsuma mandarin does not have so much of an effect on p450, yet is excellent at suppressing a broad range of allergies.

I still won't make any blanket endorsements for Lion's Mane, but not because I think it is ineffective. It is a whole herb with whole effects. The extract is like jet fuel in comparison to the dried whole mushroom's effects. Just ask yourself what the effects of increasing NK cells in an individual affected by Lyme disease might be. Could not Lion's Mane provoke tissue destruction in that individual? In my humble opinion, Lion's mane extract might not be safe for all populations.

Edited by phernandez, 21 April 2010 - 08:41 PM.


#97 babcock

  • Guest
  • 299 posts
  • 73
  • Location:USA

Posted 21 April 2010 - 09:27 PM

To prevent allergies and allergic reaction, I now recommend eating a few satsuma orange slices a day.

Comparative evaluation of 12 immature citrus fruit extracts for the inhibition of cytochrome P450 isoform activities.
Biol Pharm Bull. 2008 May;31(5):925-30.

No Lion's Mane for me until its Satsuma season this winter when I have those on-hand.

Unlike grapefruits and other citruses which can deleteriously affect other medicines by inhibiting cytochrome p450, satsuma mandarin does not have so much of an effect on p450, yet is excellent at suppressing a broad range of allergies.

I still won't make any blanket endorsements for Lion's Mane, but not because I think it is ineffective. It is a whole herb with whole effects. The extract is like jet fuel in comparison to the dried whole mushroom's effects. Just ask yourself what the effects of increasing NK cells in an individual affected by Lyme disease might be. Could not Lion's Mane provoke tissue destruction in that individual? In my humble opinion, Lion's mane extract might not be safe for all populations.


Yea the point was brought up a few posts ago that Lion's Mane may stimulate activation of NK cells which in turn could lead to the proliferation of certain bacteria and diseases that use NK activation as a proliferation point.

A big question we have is whether or not the extracts are actually like "jet fuel". There's very limited knowledge to what extraction techniques actually work to get the concentrated H&E's out of the Lion's Mane and whether or not the "extracts" out there are actually made using these techniques.

I still need to read a lot more about the up/down/dys-regulation of NGF, but I've been wondering if cycling NGF inducers might be beneficial to avoid tolerance. This might be another good reason to build some breaks into the regimen, to avoid any runaway cell growth.


I'm not sure if tolerance would be something to worry about as much as over-stimulation. To go back to post #2 on this thread I did come across this research:

http://rms1.agsearch...ety/73-3244.pdf

which noted irregular epidermal itching in mice with the theory that their nerves in their skin cells had been overstimulated and grown into a layer of skin not typically populated by nerves. This led to the mice always itching themselves.
This leads to the question, since NGF stimulates all nerves in the body not just the brain (and from a patent chrono posted it appears they may stimulate other cells easier than brain cells), Would long term administration of H&E extract overstimulate nerve growth to a dangerous level (i.e. a touch feels painful etc.) Not much research in this area that I've found.

Edit:Spelling

Edited by babcock, 21 April 2010 - 09:27 PM.


#98 NDM

  • Guest
  • 343 posts
  • 7
  • Location:North America

Posted 21 April 2010 - 10:15 PM

Re: Chrono

I take Mushroom Science...the reason for the suspicion is that in the two days when I had mild/beginning of nose bleeding the only change in my supplement regimen has been the addition of lion's mane. I've just wanted to put the info out there to see if somebody else can confirm or it's all in my own mind...

Unfortunately I did not notice any obvious mental improvement/worsening from LM...but I hope it works silently, in the background. The only mushroom which gives me detectable changes in mood/behavior is cordyceps (energy & horniness).

#99 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 21 April 2010 - 11:54 PM

That's an interesting paper. Since it seems to play a role in the severity of atopic dermatitis in humans, NGF should probably not be augmented if you have this condition. OTOH, their conclusion was a little unclear with regard to cause/effect (they say NGF-induced nerve growth causes itching "indirectly," implying that other factors are involved).

I've never read about hypersensitivity being encountered in any other studies involving mice, so this condition may need to preexist for this to occur. More generally, people have been using agents which increase NGF for hundreds of years, and for many decades in clinical application (i.e. lithium). The woman who discovered it has been applying it conjunctively for 20 years, apparently without problem. I would hesitate to say this is a real concern, though it's a possibility. If it is, it would probably happen gradually—not like you'd wake up in agony from the touch of your pajamas :|w

But indeed, it raises the larger issue of unintended/negative consequences of playing with this potent nerve chemical. I certainly wouldn't want to imply that it's safe for everyone (what is?), but so far all concerns seem to apply to isolated conditions (or pre-existing cancers). My feeling is that it poses little threat to the healthy. It's great that we're finding these possibilities, so they can be taken into account, or obviated.


But I do think downregulation (tolerance) to NGF inducing compounds is a very real possibility, and one which might apply to everyone who takes it for the long-term. I haven't seen the specific mechanism of inducing NGF expression mentioned yet, so it's going to take some more lateral and general research. But a search of papers shows that downregulation of NGF expression is definitely possible in many instances. I find it somewhat hard to believe that you could convince your cells to pump out supernormal amounts of this growth factor for the rest of your life.

In cerebrolysin therapy for advanced alzheimer's (which in some cases produces remarkable results, due at least in part to NGF/BDNF), a standard treatment cycle is 5x/week for four weeks, then four weeks off. If this is done when there's every reason to try to promote as much nerve growth as possible, I'm hypothesizing that it's partly to prevent tolerance.

So I'm considering either an all-on/all-off cycle, or staggering substances which we know to work on different systems/mechanisms (i.e. endogenous inducers vs. direct growth stimulators). And maybe a 3-4 week on/1 week off cycle. Just a thought at this point, but I think that it might yield better results than a constant regimen of diminishing returns.


NDM: So you're still taking it, and no more nosebleeds? Do you get any of the lethargy/fatigue some people have described? At what time of day do you take it?

#100 babcock

  • Guest
  • 299 posts
  • 73
  • Location:USA

Posted 22 April 2010 - 12:28 AM

Re: Chrono

I take Mushroom Science...the reason for the suspicion is that in the two days when I had mild/beginning of nose bleeding the only change in my supplement regimen has been the addition of lion's mane. I've just wanted to put the info out there to see if somebody else can confirm or it's all in my own mind...

Unfortunately I did not notice any obvious mental improvement/worsening from LM...but I hope it works silently, in the background. The only mushroom which gives me detectable changes in mood/behavior is cordyceps (energy & horniness).


If you're sensitive to nosebleeds then maybe a change in humidity caused it, or maybe you just picked your nose too much those days (that's what always gets me....j/k). But in all seriousness, I haven't come across anyone who has reported noticeable blood thinning from taking LM. I would also think it would be something mentioned in at least some of the mouse studies since bleeding would be a pretty big thing to note.
Also, fyi, you most likely won't ever notice any overnight changes with LM. The changes will most likely be so minimal in small increments that you may never notice them. But the hope is that when you get to the age where brain function normally starts to decrease, yours may not. The only "monumental" change I've read about was in an iherb review of one of the LM supps. A reviewer reported loosing feeling in half their face in some incident and a few months after taking LM they regained the feeling. Now being purely anecdotal we shouldn't really even consider this but it truly amazes me if this actually happened this quickly. But that anecdotal experience is also why we're interested in LM.

@Chrono, your arguments are logical and I completely agree. I think I was just jumping to my previous conclusions to make an argument without really thinking about it. Nice work.

#101 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 22 April 2010 - 02:45 AM

@Chrono, your arguments are logical and I completely agree. I think I was just jumping to my previous conclusions to make an argument without really thinking about it. Nice work.

I'm very glad you and mentat brought up these possible downsides today, even if they are based on theoretical mechanism or specific conditions. I'm far too inclined to get caught up in the exciting possibilities of improving cognition on one of the most fundamental physiological levels. It's important to keep in mind that access to that power has the potential for side effects. Just because something helps grow and protect cells in the brain doesn't mean that it's harmless.

Not trying to dampen the mood in the 101st post of this awesome thread :|w but trying to encourage talk of possible downsides, even if it's reasonable to say it's probably not an issue. Young healthy individuals embarking on a long-term course of neurogenesis is largely uncharted territory, and it would behoove us to try to anticipate as many possible problems as we can.

That said, all pubmed mentions about toxicity is the single case of respiratory distress, and a case of contact dermatitis in someone working with the mushroom. This seems like pretty good odds, but apparently severe atypical reaction is still possible.

Edited by chrono, 22 April 2010 - 02:46 AM.


#102 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 23 April 2010 - 01:29 AM

Myco Essentials said they would offer a buy 3/get 4 discount on both the capsules and bulk powder. They created a coupon code for me, and said I could give it out. If anyone asks, you're all my friends :)

Yes, we very much appreciate your business and we would be pleased to offer the following discount: For every 3 bottles purchased, we'll include the fourth for free, which amounts to a 25% discount on the order at this time. You can simply go to our website, for every 3 bottles you add to your cart and check out, we will ship the extra bottle to you. During the check out process from Paypal, please put "chrono" as well as other instruction that you might have on the "Instructions for seller" box such that we know to give you the discount.

I won't have enough money to take advantage of this for several weeks, so if anyone goes for it, enjoy!

And I forgot it's spring break, all the libraries close wicked early. So I won't be able to retrieve those chemistry papers until next week, now.
  • like x 1

#103 babcock

  • Guest
  • 299 posts
  • 73
  • Location:USA

Posted 23 April 2010 - 01:52 AM

Myco Essentials said they would offer a buy 3/get 4 discount on both the capsules and bulk powder. They created a coupon code for me, and said I could give it out. If anyone asks, you're all my friends :)

Yes, we very much appreciate your business and we would be pleased to offer the following discount: For every 3 bottles purchased, we'll include the fourth for free, which amounts to a 25% discount on the order at this time. You can simply go to our website, for every 3 bottles you add to your cart and check out, we will ship the extra bottle to you. During the check out process from Paypal, please put "chrono" as well as other instruction that you might have on the "Instructions for seller" box such that we know to give you the discount.

I won't have enough money to take advantage of this for several weeks, so if anyone goes for it, enjoy!

And I forgot it's spring break, all the libraries close wicked early. So I won't be able to retrieve those chemistry papers until next week, now.


Nice work!

#104 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 30 April 2010 - 02:53 AM

So it seems that hericenone A & B are only cytotoxic to cancer cells. Sorry, this wasn't evident from the title or brief abstract.

Relevant excerpts from this short paper:

...we found the two cytotoxic phenols A and B in a edible mushroom Hericium erinaceum which were cultured in Japan. These compounds showed cytotoxicity against HeLa cells.
...
The minimum concentrations giving complete growth inhibition of HeLa cells for hericenone A was 100 µg/mL, for hericenone B was 6.3 ug/mL; the potent cytotoxicity of B may be due to the γ-lactam and its N-substituent.

They refer to another fatty acid as cytotoxic as well, but I'm going to assume it's also the good kind of cytotoxic :p until I retrieve that paper as well.

So that obviates my only concern about the mushroom body. Since hericenones and erinacines may(?) function through slightly different mechanisms, and the fruit body and mycelium will contain different beneficial groups of other molecules, it seems like taking both of these (or alternating in some way) would be ideal. Though the erinacines from the mycelium are still more potent NGF inducers, so my money would be on the mycelium if I had to choose one.

We should work on compiling some product info for hericenone products, too. Babcock, did you find any sources for whole fruit bodies or powder? Didn't see any skimming through the previous page, but I'm a little tired atm.

Edited by chrono, 30 April 2010 - 06:05 PM.

  • like x 2

#105 babcock

  • Guest
  • 299 posts
  • 73
  • Location:USA

Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:10 PM

We should work on compiling some product info for hericenone products, too. Babcock, did you find any sources for whole fruit bodies or powder? Didn't see any skimming through the previous page, but I'm a little tired atm.


Off the top of my head I know the fungi health one is just a freeze dried puree of the entire mushroom. That's why it's "so cheap" (I think) no real extraction or anything @ $35 a pound.

On iHerb there is this blend:
http://www.iherb.com...plets/4963?at=0

That contains fruit body extract as well.

I think I'm going to look into trying to grow Lion's Mane at home. Be a fun project.

Edit: I'll have to wait till I get home to check my resources since a lot of them are blocked here at work.

Edited by babcock, 30 April 2010 - 12:11 PM.


#106 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:02 PM

Just got lucky concerning a little solubility info. Been collecting journal articles; all of them indicate in one of several ways that water is at the very least much less preferable than alcohols like ethanol, methanol, ethyl acetate, and chloroform. But there's still a small chance that the actives are simply much more soluble in alcohol than water.

This is from patent US5565436 (1996), by Kawagishi et al. It's a continuation of patent US5391544, but contains most of the same information. It details an extraction and elucidation of erinacines A, B and C. They use an 85% aqueous mix, the rest being ethanol, methanol or acetone. Some paraphrasing:

Erinacine A (formula 1): Colorless oil, neutral. Soluble in chloroform, acetone, ethyl acetate and methanol. Somewhat soluble in ethanol. Not soluble in water.

Erinacine B (formula 2, R=CHO): Colorless oil, neutral. Soluble in chloroform, acetone, ethyl acetate and methanol. Somewhat soluble in ethanol. Not soluble in water.

Erinacine C (formula 2, R=CH2OH): Colorless oil, neutral. Soluble in chloroform, acetone, ethyl acetate and methanol. Somewhat soluble in ethanol. Not soluble in water.

As some of these groups of molecules have quite different structures, I'll keep looking for nuggets like this. But these are three important molecules we can add to the list of things water definitely doesn't extract.

Regarding the Eclectic Institute extract (25% ethanol/h2o), it looks like the technique has some basis, at least for these molecules.

Edited by chrono, 30 April 2010 - 06:07 PM.

  • like x 1

#107 nito

  • Guest
  • 996 posts
  • 27

Posted 02 May 2010 - 01:39 AM

It's my fourth day of taking mushroom science lions mane brand. Once in the morning and once at night. So far i have experienced dreams where i come across as more confident and a bit more aggressive. The dreams have also been partly about solving things e.g mathematical stuff or logical things. I never used to dream like this. Maybe a placebo but i am quite enjoying it, as i am getting to see another version of myself:)

On the flips side, vinpocetine that i also bought have been given me headaches. I need to take less than 20 mg i guess!

#108 babcock

  • Guest
  • 299 posts
  • 73
  • Location:USA

Posted 02 May 2010 - 09:49 PM

Got this response back from Host Defense/Fungi Perfect:

Thank you for your e-mail. Our capsule products consist of mycelium grown out on Certified Organic Brown Rice to its peak constituent level. It is then halted in the growth process by freezing and then freeze dried. Post freeze drying it goes through a heat sterilization in order to meet FDA specifications. Hot water would kill many of the actives we are cultivating with mycelium. Traditionally hot water is used with the fruiting bodies (mushroom) due to their chitinous cell wall structure. We propagate mycelium for many reasons. The mycelium creates building blocks that amass into mushrooms. Mushrooms are made of rows of mycelium laminated together. The sequence of these cells building a fruitbody are medicinally useful. The NK responses from mycelium and fruitbodies, from our research, are very close to each other. The cost of growing mycelium is much lower, and cleaner as the laboratories are carefully controlled clean rooms while growing mushrooms in high humidity growing rooms is expensive, comparatively, and pest/mold control measures often encourage growers to use pesticides and fungicides.

We grow both the mycelium and the fruitbodies, growing the mycelium to the primordial stage of fruitbody formation. See Paul Stamets' videos of some of our growing rooms at www.youtube.com/paulstamets. These same fruitbodies featured come from the mycelium we grow on grain. There is a continuum of cell development, allowing us to capture the best of both extremes in the life cycle, and those in between.

I hope this is helpful to you. Please don't hesitate to email or call me at the number below if you need any further assistance.


One of the better responses I received.

Also, good find on the solubility of those three compounds.

#109 mentatpsi

  • Guest
  • 904 posts
  • 36
  • Location:Philadelphia, USA

Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:01 AM

Just got lucky concerning a little solubility info. Been collecting journal articles; all of them indicate in one of several ways that water is at the very least much less preferable than alcohols like ethanol, methanol, ethyl acetate, and chloroform. But there's still a small chance that the actives are simply much more soluble in alcohol than water.

This is from patent US5565436 (1996), by Kawagishi et al. It's a continuation of patent US5391544, but contains most of the same information. It details an extraction and elucidation of erinacines A, B and C. They use an 85% aqueous mix, the rest being ethanol, methanol or acetone. Some paraphrasing:

Erinacine A (formula 1): Colorless oil, neutral. Soluble in chloroform, acetone, ethyl acetate and methanol. Somewhat soluble in ethanol. Not soluble in water.

Erinacine B (formula 2, R=CHO): Colorless oil, neutral. Soluble in chloroform, acetone, ethyl acetate and methanol. Somewhat soluble in ethanol. Not soluble in water.

Erinacine C (formula 2, R=CH2OH): Colorless oil, neutral. Soluble in chloroform, acetone, ethyl acetate and methanol. Somewhat soluble in ethanol. Not soluble in water.

As some of these groups of molecules have quite different structures, I'll keep looking for nuggets like this. But these are three important molecules we can add to the list of things water definitely doesn't extract.

Regarding the Eclectic Institute extract (25% ethanol/h2o), it looks like the technique has some basis, at least for these molecules.


This is awesome. Thanks for providing this information. This is really beginning to make it appear that water extractions are insufficient in reaping the benefits of Lion's Mane. Is it safe to conclude this so far?

#110 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 04 May 2010 - 06:58 AM

This is awesome. Thanks for providing this information. This is really beginning to make it appear that water extractions are insufficient in reaping the benefits of Lion's Mane. Is it safe to conclude this so far?

Yes, so far we've found conclusive evidence that there are NGF-inducing compounds which water doesn't extract from both the mycellium and the fruit bodies (post #81).

I already have a number of papers concerning the synthesis/extraction of hericenones. All so far use alcohols, but I haven't found any definitive solubility statements like the ones above. Several use a dual-layer solvent system of water and an alcohol (one floats on the other like oil/water) for extraction—called "partitioning." They keep the alcohol layer and throw away what is water soluble. However, I'm not comfortable saying this is conclusive yet, because there's a chance that hericenones are soluble in both, and they sacrifice some of their yield to separate out components which are entirely water-soluble. I'll post some refs when I have a more complete list of this less-conclusive data. Should have more papers after I visit some friends later this week.

I have e-mails out to a few fruit body product suppliers. One I've heard back from is Mushroom Harvest. They have capsuled and bulk powder products. Pretty questionable, IMO:

Our mushrooms are steam extracted/activated to make a powder with high beta glucan contents. They are not just ground up mushrooms. The lion's mane powder has a guaranteed beta glucan content of at least 15%. The capsules contain the same powder as we use in the bulk 1 pound bags.

Beta glucans are the more generally-beneficial and immunomodulating molecules which were studied back in the 60s using water extractions. Steam extraction is better at breaking apart plant cells, and is probably more selective than general water extractions. It also uses high temperatures, which can be very detrimental if the molecules are sensitive (not sure in this case).

Edited by chrono, 03 August 2010 - 03:32 PM.


#111 mentatpsi

  • Guest
  • 904 posts
  • 36
  • Location:Philadelphia, USA

Posted 04 May 2010 - 07:14 AM

Btw, quick interesting link:

Anti-dementia substance from hericium erinaceum and method of extraction

#112 bacopa

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:08 AM

I thought it said it was a mushroom, but I'm delirious and in a semi wake state now. Can this compound be purchased?

#113 bacopa

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:17 AM

whoops wrong thread

Edited by dfowler, 04 May 2010 - 09:19 AM.


#114 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 04 May 2010 - 09:21 AM

I thought it said it was a mushroom, but I'm delirious and in a semi wake state now. Can this compound be purchased?

It's the mushroom. The mycelium (roots) contain the stronger family of NGF molecules called erinacines. The mushroom fruit body contains a family called hericenone.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the Cordyceps Reishi (company) product contains both of these, with a good extraction technique. Might be the best option for a single-product solution.

#115 Digital Nuro

  • Guest
  • 24 posts
  • 7

Posted 05 June 2010 - 08:58 PM

I thought it said it was a mushroom, but I'm delirious and in a semi wake state now. Can this compound be purchased?

It's the mushroom. The mycelium (roots) contain the stronger family of NGF molecules called erinacines. The mushroom fruit body contains a family called hericenone.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the Cordyceps Reishi (company) product contains both of these, with a good extraction technique. Might be the best option for a single-product solution.



Excellent work on the research for the extraction process. Very interesting. Applaud your hard work on the subject and will continue to follow the thread as it develops.

If your interested in growing your own you can purchase a Mushroom Plug Spaun here
Quote: "can be used to add appealing accents to outdoor landscapes, or in the creation of decorative borders"
Forget the Garden Gnomes, get a Mushroom Plug Spaun. :-D

#116 chrono

  • Guest, Moderator
  • 2,444 posts
  • 801
  • Location:New England

Posted 20 June 2010 - 08:55 PM

Wanted to clear up a little confusion. The Cordyceps Reishi company resells the Fungi Perfecti products. The capsule product is FP's Host Defense mycelium caps. The tincture is FP's Mycomedicine "Natural Intelligence" extract. This is currently on their discontinued/clearance page, but they told me that once these supplies run out they're launching a new line (at a slightly higher price).

It's worth noting that buying these through Cordyceps Reishi saves about $10 (and in the case of Host Defense, about $5 less than iHerb).

Here's a more detailed response about their extraction process, and the dosage:

1. We extract from the mycelium (mycelium grown out to the primordia forming stage) and the fruit bodies. We propagate mycelium for many reasons. The mycelium creates building blocks that amass into mushrooms. Mushrooms are made of rows of mycelium laminated together. The sequence of these cells building a fruit body are medicinally useful. The NK responses from mycelium and fruit bodies, from our research, are very close to each other. The cost of growing mycelium is much lower, and cleaner as the laboratories are carefully controlled clean rooms while growing mushrooms in high humidity growing rooms is expensive, comparatively, and pest/mold control measures often encourage growers to use pesticides and fungicides.

2. We use both hot water and alcohol in our extraction process. Most of the active polysaccharides of mushrooms are soluble in water. When alcohol is added and becomes greater than 40+%, the water-soluble polysaccharides precipitate. Some of the active polysaccharides and their haptens are soluble in alcohol, but insoluble in water, as in the case of Agaricus brasiliensis (Kawagishi et al. 1988). Hence, mushroom products containing both the water and alcohol extracts possess active constituents which remain in solution, giving you the best of both worlds.

3. Thirty (30) drops of the extract is the equivalent to approximately a gram of dried mushroom. One gram of dried is approximately the equivalent of 10 grams fresh.


30 drops of the extract is equal to the entire dropperful, according to the Cordyceps Reishi product page.

Again, this is probably the best possible extraction technique, so if you want to go for just one product, the extract is AFAIK the best way to get all the NGF-related and immunostimulating/generally beneficial molecules from all parts of the mushroom.
  • like x 1

#117 Mindweaver

  • Guest
  • 109 posts
  • -1

Posted 25 June 2010 - 02:18 PM

So the Lion's Mane that I already purchased from Full Spectrum is probably not going to have any effect on me ?

Edited by Guru, 25 June 2010 - 02:36 PM.


#118 tdmonster99

  • Guest
  • 46 posts
  • 5

Posted 25 June 2010 - 04:57 PM

My father suffers from Type 2 Diabetes and has diabetic neuropathy. From my research, it seems Lion's Mane could be a possible treatment for his neuropathy due to the NGF. Any further comments on which product to try or dosing schedule? From what I googled, it seems NGF has been successful in treating neuropathy.

#119 babcock

  • Guest
  • 299 posts
  • 73
  • Location:USA

Posted 25 June 2010 - 06:53 PM

My father suffers from Type 2 Diabetes and has diabetic neuropathy. From my research, it seems Lion's Mane could be a possible treatment for his neuropathy due to the NGF. Any further comments on which product to try or dosing schedule? From what I googled, it seems NGF has been successful in treating neuropathy.


For product recommendation read this thread. I would recommend taking the recommended dosage.

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#120 Mindweaver

  • Guest
  • 109 posts
  • -1

Posted 25 June 2010 - 07:13 PM

Is that Full Spectrum Lion's Mane not worth it? Or will I see similar effects, but the next purchase I make should be with the root extract?
  • dislike x 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users