46 replies to this topic

[Dorho]

If you have info and/or knowledge of products that improve the elasticity of skin, please mention them here

I was initially interested in improving my joint condition but then found out that some joint supps, like hyaluronic acid, seem to affect the skin too, and that got me interested as I have very weak, nordic type skin. The pill form is tempting too, since I wouldn't like to mess with any skin cremes. I'm a bit wary of anything promoting collagen synthesis taken internally though. Isn't there a danger that a supp like that could block arteries or something?

[1kgcoffee]

If you have info and/or knowledge of products that improve the elasticity of skin, please mention them here

I was initially interested in improving my joint condition but then found out that some joint supps, like hyaluronic acid, seem to affect the skin too, and that got me interested as I have very weak, nordic type skin. The pill form is tempting too, since I wouldn't like to mess with any skin cremes. I'm a bit wary of anything promoting collagen synthesis taken internally though. Isn't there a danger that a supp like that could block arteries or something?

I think anything that would improve elasticity of the skin would also improve elasticity of the arteries... a good thing. Unfortunately, HA is very expensive. I think your best bet is to eat HA forming foods, and get green/white tea (anti-elastase). It sucks, but it's something us light skinned folk just have to deal with.

[nancyd]

I was taking Now Foods HA from iherb.com. I stopped because I found info that HA could increase cancer risk. I'd like to start taking it again if it's untrue.

I read that astaxanthin is good for skin elasticity and additional UV protection.

Edited by nancyd, 15 February 2010 - 07:54 PM.

[Dorho]

Thanks for the tips.

I compared Astaxanthin's and Hyaluronic Acid's prices in iHerb and they seem to be pretty much in the same price range - quite reasonable. Astaxanthin seems to prevent sunburns which is a huge plus for me. Might try them at some point.

My diet currently includes some foods that should aid the skin, such as coconut oil, olive oil and a variety of different antioxidants. I'll have to see if I find some other foods that are good for skin now that there's only a few months to summer.

[tunt01]

how about biosil?

[niner]

how about biosil?

Yes, biosil is great for skin. Astaxanthin may be good, but consider lutein, either in addition or as an alternative. There is research that shows lutein helps skin and acts like a weak (but all-over, and presumably all-the-time) sunscreen. It's not very expensive, and the last time I looked, Swanson was practically giving it away.

Skin Pharmacol Physiol. 2007;20(4):199-210. Epub 2007 Apr 19.
Beneficial long-term effects of combined oral/topical antioxidant treatment with the carotenoids lutein and zeaxanthin on human skin: a double-blind, placebo-controlled study.

Palombo P, Fabrizi G, Ruocco V, Ruocco E, Fluhr J, Roberts R, Morganti P.

Department of Plastic, Reconstructive and Aesthetic Surgery, Saint Eugenio Hospital, Rome, Italy.

BACKGROUND: The skin is exposed to numerous environmental assaults that can lead to premature aging. Of these agents, perhaps none is more ubiquitous than the ultraviolet (UV) wavelengths of sunlight. The primary immediate defense against environmental skin damage is the antioxidant capacity of the skin. However, this defense system can be compromised by moderate exposure to UV light. Therefore, bolstering the antioxidant defense system of the skin is a potentially important strategy for reducing environmentally induced skin damage. AIM OF THE STUDY: This clinical trial was designed to study the efficacy of lutein and zeaxanthin, two potentially important antioxidants found naturally in the skin, upon five skin physiology parameters (surface lipids, hydration, photoprotective activity, skin elasticity and skin lipid peroxidation - malondialdehyde) of human subjects. These xanthophyllic carotenoids were administered either orally, topically, or in combination (both oral and topical routes). RESULTS: The results obtained indicate that the combined oral and topical administration of lutein and zeaxanthin provides the highest degree of antioxidant protection. However, oral and topical administration of these antioxidants individually also provides significant activity in the skin. In addition, oral administration of lutein may provide better protection than that afforded by topical application of this antioxidant when measured by changes in lipid peroxidation and photoprotective activity in the skin following UV light irradiation. Copyright 2007 S. Karger AG, Basel.

PMID: 17446716

Arch Dermatol Res. 2007 Oct;299(8):373-9. Epub 2007 Aug 21.
Regulation of the extracellular matrix remodeling by lutein in dermal fibroblasts, melanoma cells, and ultraviolet radiation exposed fibroblasts.

Philips N, Keller T, Hendrix C, Hamilton S, Arena R, Tuason M, Gonzalez S.

School of Science and Mathematics, Georgian Court University, Lakewood, NJ, USA. nphilips@fdu.edu

With aging and cancer there is increased expression or activity of matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) that degrade and remodel the structural extracellular matrix (ECM). In addition, exposure of skin to ultraviolet (UV) radiation (photoaging) leads to loss of cell viability, membrane damage, and deposition of excessive elastotic material. Lutein has antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, photoprotective, and anti-carcinogenic properties. The goal of this research was to investigate lutein's anti-aging and anti-carcinogenic effects via the regulation of the extracellular matrix remodeling. To this purpose, the effects of lutein on the expression of MMPs and their inhibitors (TIMPs, tissue inhibitors of metalloproteinases) in dermal fibroblasts (intrinsic aging) and melanoma cells were examined. Further, for lutein's photoprotective effects, the regulation of cell viability, membrane integrity, and elastin expression in the non-irradiated, and UVA or UVB radiation exposed fibroblasts were analyzed. Lutein significantly inhibited MMP-1 expression, transcriptionally, and MMP-2 protein levels in dermal fibroblasts, without altering TIMPs expression. It significantly inhibited MMP-1 expression in melanoma cells while stimulating TIMP-2. Lutein did not alter fibroblast or melanoma cell viability or membrane integrity. In ultraviolet radiation exposed fibroblasts, lutein improved cell viability, membrane integrity and inhibited elastin expression, though more significantly in the UVB exposed fibroblasts. In summary, the mechanism to lutein's anti-aging and anti-carcinogenic effects include the inhibition of MMP to TIMP ratio in dermal fibroblasts and melanoma cells, and the inhibition of cell loss, membrane damage and elastin expression in ultraviolet radiation exposed fibroblasts.

PMID: 17710425

Skin Pharmacol Physiol. 2006;19(4):224-31. Epub 2006 May 4.
Antioxidant supplements improve parameters related to skin structure in humans.

Heinrich U, Tronnier H, Stahl W, Béjot M, Maurette JM.

Institute of Experimental Dermatology, University of Witten/Herdecke, Witten, Germany. ulrike.heinrich@uni-wh.de

In the present study we investigated the influence of two different antioxidant supplements composed of carotenoids, vitamin E and selenium on parameters related to skin health and skin aging. Thirty-nine volunteers with healthy, normal skin of skin type 2 were divided into 3 groups (n = 13) and supplemented for a period of 12 weeks. Group 1 received a mixture of lycopene (3 mg/day), lutein (3 mg/day), beta-carotene (4.8 mg/day), alpha-tocopherol (10 mg/day) and selenium (75 microg/day). Group 2 was supplemented with a mixture of lycopene (6 mg/day), beta-carotene (4.8 mg/day), alpha-tocopherol (10 mg/day) and selenium (75 microg/day). Group 3 was the placebo control. Upon supplementation serum levels of selected carotenoids increased in both verum groups. Skin density and thickness were determined by ultrasound measurements. A significant increase for both parameters was determined in the verum groups. Roughness, scaling, smoothness and wrinkling of the skin were determined by Surface Evaluation of Living Skin (Visioscan). Roughness and scaling were improved by the supplementation with antioxidant micronutrients. In the placebo group no changes were found for any of the parameters. Copyright © 2006 S. Karger AG, Basel.

PMID: 16679825

There was another favorable lutein paper that I saw a while back, but I can't find it now.

[TheFountain]

MSM powder.

[TheFountain]

I was taking Now Foods HA from iherb.com. I stopped because I found info that HA could increase cancer risk.

There is no study that directly correlates Hyaluranic acid and cancer (hyaluranic acid declines as you age, yet more old people get cancer than young people!). In mice there was a correlation between hyaluronidase administration and reduced tumor aggression which coincided with hyaluronan (hyaluranic acid) eradication but this by no means concludes that Hyaluranic acid itself CAUSES anything. All the study said was that in mice who ALREADY had cancer hyaluranic-rich environments coincided with tumour progression (but then this applies to hemoglobin too, does this mean you should remove your blood?) The mice already had tumours to begin with and these tumours were not caused by hyaluronan presence. You read the study wrong and jumped to paranoid conclusions. Besides there are a gazillion other studies pointing to the benefits of Hyaluranic acid. And I am quite certain that about 100 other things you are doing to yourself are worse for your net-health outcome than taking hyaluranic acid (again, a natural substance that declines as you age, hence why people, not mice, supplement it).

Edited by TheFountain, 16 February 2010 - 08:30 AM.

[happy lemon]

MSM powder.

Here is the opinion of Fredrik on MSM:

http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=377277

[TheFountain]

MSM powder.

Here is the opinion of Fredrik on MSM:

http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=377277

Everyone I know who has used MSM has achieved not only results for their skin but, reportedly, body detoxification as well. I say try it, regardless of fredriks opinion. I know of people who supplement 15 grams a day with no reported side effects besides mild sulphur-induced headaches.

Edited by TheFountain, 16 February 2010 - 09:31 AM.

[JLL]

Nice, "body detoxification" as well, lol...

Not sure if you're looking for supplements or topicals, but from the topical department retinoids are the first thing that comes to mind, of course. Here's a list of effects mentioned in the literature:

* Increased skin thickness and firmness
* Increased skin hydration
* Increased skin tolerance to external factors
* Reduced visible signs of sun damage
* Reduced fine wrinkles
* Restoration of even skin tone and reduced hyperpigmentation
* Reduction in dark circles under the eyes
* Reduced skin roughness
* Reduced irritation from shaving
* Less risk of skin cancer
* Reduced stretch marks
* A healthy, 'rosy glow'

BioSil seems good based on the study on women:

Depth of roughness, mean depth of roughness and maximum roughness increased in the placebo group by 8, 6 and 11%, respectively. In other words, their skin got worse during the 20 weeks. In the treatment group, however, the same parameters decreased by 16, 8 and 19%, meaning that the participants' skin quality improved considerably. Similarly, signs of photoaging increased in the placebo group but decreased in the group taking ch-OSA.

I've been taking it for quite a while and haven't noticed anything, however. Topical vitamin C should also be good for elasticity:

* Increases the transcription rate of DNA in vitro
* Increases fibroblast proliferation by a factor of four to six in vitro
* Doubles collagen synthesis of fibroblasts in vitro
* Has anti-inflammatory properties in vitro
* Enhances collagen production (type I and III) in vivo
* Protects from UV-induced photodamage and skin cancers in vivo
* Reduces uneven pigmentation in vivo

And, as already mentioned, lutein orally or orally + topically looks helpful for skin:

Skin photo-protection improved 2.5 times with the oral lutein supplement and 4.2 times when both topical and oral treatment were used. For skin elasticity, the increases were 56% and 68%, respectively. Skin hydration improved by 82% after combined oral and topical treatment. Oral treatment and topical treatment alone resulted in a 60% and 62% improvements, respectively.

Skin lipid levels also increased; with combined treatment the increase was 63%. Oral treatment and topical treatment resulted in increases of 46% and 23%, respectively. Lipid peroxidation decreased by 65% when the combined treatment was used. Using only the topical lutein treatment resulted in a 63% decrease.

It's pretty cheap as a bulk powder, too, and the taste is not intolerable. Combining it with lycopene (and maybe other carotenoids) may be a good idea.

In the study mentioned here, people who consumed tomato paste had 33% more protection against sunburn compared to a control group after 12 weeks. The level of protection was equal to a sun protection factor (SPF) of 1.3, which is low compared to a good sunscreen but still quite significant. The daily amount was 55 grams (or five tablespoons) of tomato paste consumed with olive oil. It also boosted the level of procollagen in the skin, which suggests potential reversal of the skin aging process.

[Dagon]

Quick summary of Frederik's advice:

"There´s plenty of sulphur in food and no RDI for MSM. I can see no reason to supplement with MSM since its health benefits are questionable.

Go for Heliocare (2 capsules), pycnogenol (3x25 mg can decrease melasma), creatine (2-5 g) and Q10 (30-200 mg) instead. And drink plenty of green tea."

I'm on 166mg MSM along with Chondroitin and Glucosamine. Also take 30mg Q10.

Edited by Dagon, 16 February 2010 - 03:45 PM.

[Dorho]

Woah, even more suggestions poured in. I think this thread is starting to form into a quite nice introduction into skin care for weak skinned people

The reason why I don't shop in Swanson's is because the shipping fees to Europe are absurdly high, so I'm thinking of going with iHerb again. Bulk carotenoid powders aren't that interesting either, since they would probably have to be cooked in oil to maximize absorption.

I'm mostly interested in Jarrow's CarotenALL softgels (I think the glycerin it contains aids the absorption?) and NOW's MSM + hyaluronic acid vcaps. (CarotenALL contains alpha&beta carotene, lutein, zeaxhantin, lycopene, phytoene, phytofluene, astaxanthin, and gamma tocopherol, with all except gamma tocopherol in quite meaningful amounts, it seems.)

Biosil and retinoid cremes are perhaps a good next step if I don't get any noticeable effects from the two products mentioned above.

[Dorho]

Quick summary of Frederik's advice:

"There´s plenty of sulphur in food and no RDI for MSM. I can see no reason to supplement with MSM since its health benefits are questionable.

Go for Heliocare (2 capsules), pycnogenol (3x25 mg can decrease melasma), creatine (2-5 g) and Q10 (30-200 mg) instead. And drink plenty of green tea."

I'm on 166mg MSM along with Chondroitin and Glucosamine. Also take 30mg Q10.

Cheers for the summary.

[TheFountain]

Nice, "body detoxification" as well, lol...

This coming from a person who claims that using something that showed uniform results in clinical trials doesn't work for him.

I've been taking it for quite a while and haven't noticed anything

So you laugh at other people who say things work for them because you are bitter at the fact that things are not working for you? Is that it?

And before you enter the BS 'placebo effect' with regard to MSM argument maybe the fact that Biosil is not working for you is placebo effect. Ever consider that? Maybe you are so cynical about everything that you are convincing yourself that nothing is working, thus initiating some weird, mystical biological reaction that makes everything not work! hmmm?????

Edited by TheFountain, 17 February 2010 - 11:07 AM.

[JLL]

Which clinical trial might you be referring to? The clinical trial that showed body detoxification from MSM? Oh, right, I forgot -- that study doesn't exist.

And I think you should look up the definition of the word "placebo".

[TheFountain]

Which clinical trial might you be referring to? The clinical trial that showed body detoxification from MSM? Oh, right, I forgot -- that study doesn't exist.

The point is you're telling people not to listen to people who have had detox effects with MSM and yet you're sharing your unsuccessful experiences with Biosil with people as if they should listen to you over the 'clinical' data'. Why else would you share your experience with Biosil if not to encourage people to either take it or not take it? A bit contradictory hmm?

I am perfectly aware of the definition of Placebo effect and I think you are experiencing a reverse form of it if you think that, despite it working on many people in a study, it is not working for you. If you are suggesting gender has anything to do with it try getting your DHT levels adjusted.

Edited by TheFountain, 17 February 2010 - 01:02 PM.

[Skötkonung]

...detox effects...

What exactly are we removing from the body when we detox? Detox can mean a lot of different things like chelation therapy, etc.

I have been taking (3000mg) MSM with my glucosamine every day for a couple years, but haven't noticed any "detox" effect. My understanding was that it is a anti-inflammatory for the joints, but didn't necessarily work systemically by altering the typical bio-makers for inflammation such as CRP.

[4eva]

...detox effects...

What exactly are we removing from the body when we detox? Detox can mean a lot of different things like chelation therapy, etc.

In general terms, sulfur helps the liver detox. There are different processes of detoxification the liver goes through like sulfation, sulfoxidation, etc.

Sulfation is the conjugation of toxins with sulfur-containing compounds.

Sulfoxidation is the process by which the sulfur-containing molecules in drugs and foods are metabolized. It is also the process by which the body eliminates the sulfite food additives used to preserve many foods and drugs.

http://www.soundform....com/page7.html

[zorba990]

...detox effects...

What exactly are we removing from the body when we detox? Detox can mean a lot of different things like chelation therapy, etc.

In general terms, sulfur helps the liver detox. There are different processes of detoxification the liver goes through like sulfation, sulfoxidation, etc.

Sulfation is the conjugation of toxins with sulfur-containing compounds.

Sulfoxidation is the process by which the sulfur-containing molecules in drugs and foods are metabolized. It is also the process by which the body eliminates the sulfite food additives used to preserve many foods and drugs.

http://www.soundform....com/page7.html

MSM increased thickness of my hair but also increased the gray significantly.
This reversed itself but it gives me cause for taking MSM in any large amounts again.

[JLL]

Which clinical trial might you be referring to? The clinical trial that showed body detoxification from MSM? Oh, right, I forgot -- that study doesn't exist.

The point is you're telling people not to listen to people who have had detox effects with MSM and yet you're sharing your unsuccessful experiences with Biosil with people as if they should listen to you over the 'clinical' data'. Why else would you share your experience with Biosil if not to encourage people to either take it or not take it? A bit contradictory hmm?

I don't encourage or discourage people to do anything on my blog, I'm merely sharing my personal experience so that people can form their own conclusions.

I am not surprised that many have had positive effects from BioSil. It seems legitimate enough, and it is a bit disappointing I've not seen any benefits myself.

However, I view any and all claims about "detoxification" with lots of skepticism. I also found it funny that you mentioned people had experienced detox effects from taking MSM -- what exactly does detoxification feel like? Did they measure their levels of... toxins? What toxins are those precisely?

[frederickson]

like many here, i have taken a vast array of supplements over the years. while i believe most are/were beneficial over the long run, very few have had effects as directly noticeable as those on msm.

i take large doses (10 grams a day), which i began primarily for joint care after a few decades of basketball, weight lifting, and competitive martial arts. while i think msm has helped my joints (along with very high dose glu/cho and fish oil), the most noticeable effects are on SKIN and HAIR!

my skin is smoother than it's ever been, and my hair and nails grow like wildfire. hair is considerably softer than usual and nails are strong. there is a very noticeable difference when i stop taking msm, which i don't plan on doing.

those who don't notice an effect of msm most likely are not taking enough, as less than a gram a day is unlikely to have any noticeable benefit. doses of 5 grams or more will almost assuredly and noticeably benefit your hair, skin, and nails. though it tastes bad, purchase the powder for maximum efficacy and cost-efficiency. clearly one of my favorite supplements.

[JLL]

I took up to 8 grams for months and saw nothing.

[TheFountain]

I don't encourage or discourage people to do anything on my blog, I'm merely sharing my personal experience so that people can form their own conclusions.

Okay then why scoff at people who in their own personal accounts are saying MSM has had noticeable detox effects? It's alright to report that a supplement is doing nothing but not that it is having X or Y effect?

[TheFountain]

I took up to 8 grams for months and saw nothing.

The problem is you are in the minority here. Plus you are not stating specifics of what you are trying to accomplish, at least not here. I've not read your blog. You're also not stating your age or the condition/how aged your skin is. So it is difficult for anyone to respond to 'it did nothing for me'. You could be 90 years old for all we know and have far too much skin damage for these supplements to have any noticeable effect. From what I have read alot of people take these supplements for reversal of minor photo damage and further prevention. If you have severe photo damage that could be the problem. On the other hand you could be 19 years old and thus be too young for the supplement to have any noticeable effect. But we don't know because you refuse to tell us these details. Not very scientific.

Edited by TheFountain, 18 February 2010 - 06:59 PM.

[JLL]

I don't encourage or discourage people to do anything on my blog, I'm merely sharing my personal experience so that people can form their own conclusions.

Okay then why scoff at people who in their own personal accounts are saying MSM has had noticeable detox effects? It's alright to report that a supplement is doing nothing but not that it is having X or Y effect?

*sigh* How about a little reading comprehension there, big boy? Allow me to repeat:

However, I view any and all claims about "detoxification" with lots of skepticism. I also found it funny that you mentioned people had experienced detox effects from taking MSM -- what exactly does detoxification feel like? Did they measure their levels of... toxins? What toxins are those precisely?

[TheFountain]

I don't encourage or discourage people to do anything on my blog, I'm merely sharing my personal experience so that people can form their own conclusions.

Okay then why scoff at people who in their own personal accounts are saying MSM has had noticeable detox effects? It's alright to report that a supplement is doing nothing but not that it is having X or Y effect?

*sigh* How about a little reading comprehension there, big boy? Allow me to repeat:

However, I view any and all claims about "detoxification" with lots of skepticism. I also found it funny that you mentioned people had experienced detox effects from taking MSM -- what exactly does detoxification feel like? Did they measure their levels of... toxins? What toxins are those precisely?

No, you have this attitude about all anecdotal reports of supplement effects that are not yet scientifically studied. But it is alright to report no effect at all, despite the fact that the studies show overall effectiveness? Makes no sense. Plus it is impossible to make an assessment based on you hiding your age and level of photo-damage. We cannot simply trust 'it did nothing for me'. Give more details then the objective sources can determine whether or not it did nothing for you or not, Mister scientific.

[JLL]

Jesus christ, are you that dumb or just playing dumb? Nevermind. On with the thread.

[TheFountain]

Jesus christ, are you that dumb or just playing dumb? Nevermind. On with the thread.

You're an idiot.

[Logan]

LOL!!!!