63 replies to this topic

[TheFountain]

I think you're simply getting wrong impressions from old people and the attitude toward them.
Go show some more kindness to you grandparents, offer your grandma to make a cake together and listen to her life stories.

In my University campus there are plenty of old people working as assistants, security guards. They are smiling, they are having fun. And I can't see why not, I might have enjoyed a lot of the things there if I didn't have different goals.
I got fun chats with people there who simply saw me hanging around with a cat there which they all love and treat daily.

Sexuality has nothing to do with happiness. Well it can help it, but it's not the main thing for it.

I think you need to reread the thread if you think I mistreat old people. The question raised here is whether or not older people still have active Libidos. And if so how miserable must many of them be to not be able to do anything about it? Like someone else said many older people have the same minds they did when they were 20, but how do we treat them? Like they have the minds of 80 year olds! bit of a contradiction isn't it! Let's stop being hypocrites and discuss how we change this.

[Luna]

I barely have any libido. What does it even matter? your initial post doesn't mention libido O_o stop always twisting your posts later on to try and be right.

[kenj]

This reasoning reminds me of the 'make them feel useful' argument. Why? Is this a genuine extension of their usefulness or are we as a society making it up to humour them? And while I appreciate your candor your post does not address the fundamental issue of the one big validating factor in life, socio-sexual efficacy. Basically, by your reasoning, old people retreat into sexual passivity and become like children who we must all use reverse psychology with so they feel as if their lives mean more than just being dried out has beens. Don't get me wrong I have lots of compassion for older people but aren't we being a bit condescending when we try our hardest to make them 'feel useful'? Let's dive head first into this conversation. No holds barred! Empty the pool and dive in!

ISTM I'm not coming through with my point, because you again suggest that 'the one big validating factor in life is socio-sexual efficacy'.
I think you need to consider that a lifespan is more complex than that. Sure, we are build to Create, - but healthy aged people do not need 'compassion' (<-- that's NOT what I meant by sayin' you need to open your arms!), and they do NOT necessarily need to be validated (by your standards):
People grow and mature, the human brain is plastic and change, - and a 70/y old healthy human being (again, read "Healthy At 100") have 7 decades of life experience to share with the world, family, friends, etc. and a healtghy human being will physically and psychologically adapt to having 70 years of Life experience. I'm not sure you get this, though.

BTW, the 'Grumpy Old Men' you mention is just a cliché from a funny movie, which in this thread ISTM serves no other purpose than to 'validate' that we apparently need to show 'compassion' to old people, because they're all grumpy and miserable...... You don't have to be old to be grumpy and miserable. ;-) (I just don't see the connection.)

Edited by kenj, 19 February 2010 - 01:00 PM.

[TheFountain]

I barely have any libido. What does it even matter? your initial post doesn't mention libido O_o stop always twisting your posts later on to try and be right.

Of course I implied Libido in my first post! What do you think 'socio-sexual efficacy' imparts? Obviously Libido has a big part to play. And it is alright to add details as one goes along. Why shouldn't we? That's a silly disposition. So chill out, put on some party music and delve into this awesome conversation!

Edited by TheFountain, 19 February 2010 - 01:00 PM.

[TheFountain]

This reasoning reminds me of the 'make them feel useful' argument. Why? Is this a genuine extension of their usefulness or are we as a society making it up to humour them? And while I appreciate your candor your post does not address the fundamental issue of the one big validating factor in life, socio-sexual efficacy. Basically, by your reasoning, old people retreat into sexual passivity and become like children who we must all use reverse psychology with so they feel as if their lives mean more than just being dried out has beens. Don't get me wrong I have lots of compassion for older people but aren't we being a bit condescending when we try our hardest to make them 'feel useful'? Let's dive head first into this conversation. No holds barred! Empty the pool and dive in!

ISTM I'm not coming through with my point, because you again suggest that 'the one big validating factor in life is socio-sexual efficacy'.
I think you need to consider that a lifespan is more complex than that. Sure, we are build to Create, - but healthy aged people do not need 'compassion' (<-- that's NOT what I meant by sayin' you need to open your arms!), and they do NOT necessarily need to be validated (by your standards):
People grow and mature, the human brain is plastic and change, - and a 70/y old healthy human being (again, read "Healthy At 100") have 7 decades of life experience to share with the world, family, friends, etc. and a healtghy human being will physically and psychologically adapt to having 70 years of Life experience. I'm not sure you get this, though.

BTW, the 'Grumpy Old Men' you mention is just a cliché from a funny movie, which in this thread ISTM serves no other purpose than to 'validate' that we apparently need to show 'compassion' to old people, because they're all grumpy and miserable...... You don't have to be old to be grumpy and miserable. ;-) (I just don't see the connection.)

But even your idea that all older people have necessarily accumulated experiences that are worthy of being tauted as something we should listen to is sort of a generalization. I am sure there are quite a few 70 year olds who have lived mundane, sterile lives and are just waiting to die and have no extraordinary experiences to speak of. But this is a symptom of another problem, that is the problem that socio-economical circumstances impose upon us. Which is a delimiting factor of how interesting/extraordinary the 'average' individuals life ends up being. ANother conversation for another thread though. My point was that it is equally condescending to suppose all older people have interesting stories to tell. Quite simply, some do, many do not. And isn't it the epitome of agism to treat people different, even to the degree that we would treat them more 'special' than someone else because of their age?

[Shannon Vyff]

You can be old and be more attractive than a younger person if you are fit, and the young person in question is not. Looks are subjective anyway-bone structure wise/height wise and all that. An older person can contribute more to society with their monetary contributions, and on average donate a lot more money than younger people. Also there are young people who are unattractive purely through their actions. "Looks" are not as important as being conscientious contributers to society in my opinion

[advancedatheist]

But even your idea that all older people have necessarily accumulated experiences that are worthy of being tauted as something we should listen to is sort of a generalization. I am sure there are quite a few 70 year olds who have lived mundane, sterile lives and are just waiting to die and have no extraordinary experiences to speak of.

I've wondered about that myself. We don't all have fathers, grandfathers or uncles like Warren Buffett, for example. Three of my grandparents seemed like basically decent people (I didn't get to know my dad's father all that well), but I could tell even as a child that they didn't have that much going for them. It never occurred to me growing up that I could go to one of my grandparents for advice, for example, because I sensed that they didn't have that much in the way of "wisdom."

But this is a symptom of another problem, that is the problem that socio-economical circumstances impose upon us. Which is a delimiting factor of how interesting/extraordinary the 'average' individuals life ends up being. ANother conversation for another thread though. My point was that it is equally condescending to suppose all older people have interesting stories to tell. Quite simply, some do, many do not. And isn't it the epitome of agism to treat people different, even to the degree that we would treat them more 'special' than someone else because of their age?

Robert Ettinger in a cryonics context makes the case for giving ordinary people preferential treatment over the Winston Churchills of the world. (Ettinger wrote this in the early 1960's, before Churchill's death, with Churchill's career still vividly remembered by the people alive at the time. Goes to show how long ago the cryonics idea originated.)

http://www.cryonics....1chapter11.html

The Fallacy of Just-Freeze-the-Elite

One sometimes hears the naive asseveration, "Maybe we ought to save Churchill, but why should we save Joe Schmoe?"

The answer is easy, and comes in four parts:

1. Joe, after the future medicos work him over (although not necessarily immediately after resuscitation), will be just about as high-type and just about as useful as Sir Winston. He will no longer be the prisoner of his genetic inheritance.

2. If we are thinking in terms of rewards, perhaps Joe deserves first consideration, since Winnie has already licked a bushel of lollipops. Joe needs to be compensated for the sorry hand he was dealt the first time around.

3. The stratification of society is resented by the people in the lower strata. Even such trifling distinctions as those between master and slave, or between commissar and worker, are only grudgingly endured, if at all. The chance of the masses holding still for the vastly greater split between mortal and immortal is nil. The elite have a fairly simple choice: share immortality, or be torn limb from limb.

4. The benefits to all of society resulting from the long view depend on all of society sharing this view. The Golden Rule must know nothing of class or caste.

In short, the freezer program must embrace us all, with exceptions for minorities who voluntarily reject it. There will be a preliminary slipping and clashing of gears, but this must be kept to a minimum if the world's works are not to fall apart.

Edited by advancedatheist, 19 February 2010 - 03:47 PM.

[eason]

You're nuts.

Please explain.

If I have to explain to you that there is much more to life than sex, then you have a lot to experience, and I presume that no amount of explaining will make you see that.

[eason]

An elderly person can be interesting and yet we as people can still see them as elderly people.

And?

I can tell that they are old. That's pretty much it. I look up to a lot of older people. I don't look up to as many people my age, some of whom are pretty much useless.

For example when I was going to school in a college town my landlord was an 87 year old refugee of nazi germany. He use to randomly speak to me about his escape from the regime and how hitler 'wasn't as bad' as people made him out to be and 'certainly no worse than George Bush' which I have to say was a damned fine point! But his bodily reflexes were slower than a snail and his overall mental condition was very senile. I always felt that if the minds of people like him could just be transported to more youthful bodies we would be doing society a big service as they are essentially like walking history books. Unfortunately not many are with us any longer and not who knows if any are signed up for cryonics. What a loss.

This seems more reasonable to me. I do feel bad when people lose their mental ability.

[TheFountain]

An older person can contribute more to society with their monetary contributions, and on average donate a lot more money than younger people.

Yes but is there any solid relationship between biology and this illusion we call money? If time ceased to exist our bio-sexual energy would not. And what happens when society evolves to the point when money is no longer needed? When we become a socialist democracy like you see in star trek? What will all those who use monetary contribution as validation do to remind us that their life is meaningful?

Also there are young people who are unattractive purely through their actions. "Looks" are not as important as being conscientious contributers to society in my opinion

Fine point, but I hope you are not speaking about a moral code as morality seems relative (some people think it is alright to walk around naked, some do not). As long as the people in question live their life the way they wish without harming another, then this statement holds true.

[TheFountain]

But even your idea that all older people have necessarily accumulated experiences that are worthy of being tauted as something we should listen to is sort of a generalization. I am sure there are quite a few 70 year olds who have lived mundane, sterile lives and are just waiting to die and have no extraordinary experiences to speak of.

I've wondered about that myself. We don't all have fathers, grandfathers or uncles like Warren Buffett, for example. Three of my grandparents seemed like basically decent people (I didn't get to know my dad's father all that well), but I could tell even as a child that they didn't have that much going for them. It never occurred to me growing up that I could go to one of my grandparents for advice, for example, because I sensed that they didn't have that much in the way of "wisdom."

But this is a symptom of another problem, that is the problem that socio-economical circumstances impose upon us. Which is a delimiting factor of how interesting/extraordinary the 'average' individuals life ends up being. ANother conversation for another thread though. My point was that it is equally condescending to suppose all older people have interesting stories to tell. Quite simply, some do, many do not. And isn't it the epitome of agism to treat people different, even to the degree that we would treat them more 'special' than someone else because of their age?

Robert Ettinger in a cryonics context makes the case for giving ordinary people preferential treatment over the Winston Churchills of the world. (Ettinger wrote this in the early 1960's, before Churchill's death, with Churchill's career still vividly remembered by the people alive at the time. Goes to show how long ago the cryonics idea originated.)

http://www.cryonics....1chapter11.html

The Fallacy of Just-Freeze-the-Elite

One sometimes hears the naive asseveration, "Maybe we ought to save Churchill, but why should we save Joe Schmoe?"

The answer is easy, and comes in four parts:

1. Joe, after the future medicos work him over (although not necessarily immediately after resuscitation), will be just about as high-type and just about as useful as Sir Winston. He will no longer be the prisoner of his genetic inheritance.

2. If we are thinking in terms of rewards, perhaps Joe deserves first consideration, since Winnie has already licked a bushel of lollipops. Joe needs to be compensated for the sorry hand he was dealt the first time around.

3. The stratification of society is resented by the people in the lower strata. Even such trifling distinctions as those between master and slave, or between commissar and worker, are only grudgingly endured, if at all. The chance of the masses holding still for the vastly greater split between mortal and immortal is nil. The elite have a fairly simple choice: share immortality, or be torn limb from limb.

4. The benefits to all of society resulting from the long view depend on all of society sharing this view. The Golden Rule must know nothing of class or caste.

In short, the freezer program must embrace us all, with exceptions for minorities who voluntarily reject it. There will be a preliminary slipping and clashing of gears, but this must be kept to a minimum if the world's works are not to fall apart.

I'm not sure if 'joe schmoe' is a victim of genetics so much as environment. But I have pondered this nature vs nurture question quite a bit and have reached the conclusion that maybe genetics does determine how people act or reach out to the world around them. But does this presuppose genetic superiority? I do not think so. I think it would presuppose the fact that everyone has their own genetic gift. Not everyone is a Muhamad Ali. But not everyone is an Eddie Van Halen or a HR Giger or a CG Jung. And that's the beauty of it, they don't have to be. Plain Jayne and Joe schmoe are just anonyms caught in the whirlwind of quantum chaos. What do they mean? And furthermore what do they become when they are 'old'?

[TheFountain]

You're nuts.

Please explain.

If I have to explain to you that there is much more to life than sex, then you have a lot to experience, and I presume that no amount of explaining will make you see that.

Listen, put on some ocean sounds, relax in your recliner and enjoy the philosophical masturbation that this type of conversation puts forth. I remember a quote. "philosophy is the evolution of ideas'. I do not remember who said this but it is an awesome statement and certainly one to live by!

[TheFountain]

And?

And the rest of what I said which cannot be separated from that statement! Otherwise people would be going 'and'. Oh wait.

[eason]

Listen, put on some ocean sounds, relax in your recliner and enjoy the philosophical masturbation that this type of conversation puts forth. I remember a quote. "philosophy is the evolution of ideas'. I do not remember who said this but it is an awesome statement and certainly one to live by!

I'm just responding to your original post. You made some pretty bold (incorrect) claims:

What validates people the most in life? Obviously socio-sexual factors. This is probably 95% of the purpose of our existence outside of artistry

I'm not initiating any philosphical masturbation... I'm merely stating that your original post doesn't hold true!

[eason]

What validates people the most in life is their abilities and potentials of their 5 senses, their ability to think, and the opportunities that abound in this mysterious shot here at existence.

If along the way people have a shiny gold bracelet, thats just an infinitely small fraction of what it means to exist. If along the way they have smooth skin that makes people want to try to win them over so they can get in bed with them then that is just one tiny small miniscule, insignificant in the scheme of things, peice of this almost unrealistically ginormous mysterious puzzle and play ground here.

Sexuality is an overpowering urge not because it is so pioneering and productive and out of this world in and of itself. Its that way because its programmed that way. The chemicals in the body force most people to think about sexuality. Those chemicals could be hypothetically, and in some cases can be, programmed to create just about any urge.

If you ask me sexuality is becoming more of a relic of times coming to pass and is more of a scourge to this day and age than anything. I like to say that if people didnt have to think about dating and getting together with so much of their time then the industrial and technological revolutions and others would have probably been here thousands of years ago because people would have had more time to devote to innovation and progress.

Older people with less sexuality dont bring us down, theyre lessened sexuality makes them more equiped to help bring us up. Of course, Im not against sexuality, I do though wish there was a switch that would allow us to turn it on and off. I dont want to think about women all day long any more than I want to think about picking blue berries or painting houses all day long. I cant wait until Im older and that urge subsides more.

I cant wait until a time when we have developed methods, maybe drugs, maybe therapies, maybe computer interfaces, or whatever it may be, that will allow us to have urges on these same kinds of levels that allow us to put more of our focus into things like exploring the universe, seeking out the big questions of existence, innovating more, digging deeper into the possibilities of sub atomic particles and combinations of technologies, etc...

Existence represents a far, far greater opportunity to us here than sexuality.

I didn't read this. This a fine response right here!

[eternaltraveler]

Listen, put on some ocean sounds, relax in your recliner and enjoy the philosophical masturbation that this type of conversation puts forth.

projection much?

This is supposed to be a philosophical discussion now?

Enjoy.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 20 February 2010 - 12:15 AM.

[eason]

Way to pick a video of some mentally unstable older people. Great unbiased selection there. LOL. I still can't figure out if you're mentally deluded or if you're trolling. Probably both.

[TheFountain]

Listen, put on some ocean sounds, relax in your recliner and enjoy the philosophical masturbation that this type of conversation puts forth.

projection much?

This is supposed to be a philosophical discussion now?

Enjoy.

I take exception to your accusation that this is not a philosophical discussion. Shame on you for lacking a sense of adventure.

[TheFountain]

Way to pick a video of some mentally unstable older people. Great unbiased selection there. LOL. I still can't figure out if you're mentally deluded or if you're trolling. Probably both.

Well that was a response to someone elses observation that many older people feel like '20 year olds' in their minds, despite being 50, 60, 70 or whatever their chronoligical/physical age might be. Perhaps we as a society confuse this with mental illness or even, in the extreme scenario, senility? Is a 50 year old man trying to sleep with a teenage girl a mental illness or is it a lack of connection between the fact that, though he might feel 20 in his mind, he is still 50 physically? Furthermore as his body 'ages' while his mind does not does this gap of understanding and comprehension widen and prevent him from 'getting it' as it were? There, I just gave you a mega-dose of vitamin T (for thinking). Now contemplate!

Edited by TheFountain, 20 February 2010 - 03:14 PM.

[eason]

Well that was a response to someone elses observation that many older people feel like '20 year olds' in their minds, despite being 50, 60, 70 or whatever their chronoligical/physical age might be. Perhaps we as a society confuse this with mental illness or even, in the extreme scenario, senility? Is a 50 year old man trying to sleep with a teenage girl a mental illness or is it a lack of connection between the fact that, though he might feel 20 in his mind, he is still 50 physically? Furthermore as his body 'ages' while his mind does not does this gap of understanding and comprehension widen and prevent him from 'getting it' as it were? There, I just gave you a mega-dose of vitamin T (for thinking). Now contemplate!

I got the original point. My point is that normal older men don't want to sleep with teenage girls. Heck, even I don't, and I'm far younger than the guys in that video.

[Chaos Theory]

Everyone is a victim of their own perception of reality. If you see life as a constant slide into feebleness, impotence, and loss of sexual power, that is your decision (conscious or not).

It is indeed philosophy but don't express such shock when everyone else doesn't choose embrace this mindset.

Life is what you make it. You could spend your entire life curing disease without ever having to express sexual power over a single person. Innumerable people of historical significance were asexual in appearance and behavior.

Preoccupation with sex detracts from pursuits that are more productive and fulfilling in the long run.

[TheFountain]

Well that was a response to someone elses observation that many older people feel like '20 year olds' in their minds, despite being 50, 60, 70 or whatever their chronoligical/physical age might be. Perhaps we as a society confuse this with mental illness or even, in the extreme scenario, senility? Is a 50 year old man trying to sleep with a teenage girl a mental illness or is it a lack of connection between the fact that, though he might feel 20 in his mind, he is still 50 physically? Furthermore as his body 'ages' while his mind does not does this gap of understanding and comprehension widen and prevent him from 'getting it' as it were? There, I just gave you a mega-dose of vitamin T (for thinking). Now contemplate!

I got the original point. My point is that normal older men don't want to sleep with teenage girls. Heck, even I don't, and I'm far younger than the guys in that video.

No. 'Normal' older men lie about wanting to sleep with teenage girls out of moral conditioning. These men obviously do not possess the capacity of hiding their desire. Does it make them more guilty or less guilty?

[TheFountain]

Everyone is a victim of their own perception of reality. If you see life as a constant slide into feebleness, impotence, and loss of sexual power, that is your decision (conscious or not).

I actually created this topic as an impetus for us all to become more aware of not allowing other's to define us now, or as we 'get older'. Suggesting in fact that 'getting older' is largely a societally induced phenomenon.

It is indeed philosophy but don't express such shock when everyone else doesn't choose embrace this mindset.

I don't think I expressed a specific 'mind set' anywhere in this thread. So much as questions I felt were pertinent to the psychology of the human condition relating to this subject. It is a deep psychological issue that can destroy people if it goes unchecked.

Life is what you make it. You could spend your entire life curing disease without ever having to express sexual power over a single person. Innumerable people of historical significance were asexual in appearance and behavior.

Preoccupation with sex detracts from pursuits that are more productive and fulfilling in the long run.

Now you're talking about the redirection of Libido. One could argue that they are still human and thus still deserving of physical affection from other humans. But there is no way to measure whether or not they are happy without it.

Edited by TheFountain, 22 February 2010 - 06:27 PM.

[Nootropic Cat]

I'm still not sure what TheFountain's own opinion is on the question in the thread topic - knowing that would help me understand what he hopes to achieve by the conversation. I guess that the word 'valid' is to be interpreted in the subjective sense, as in 'How does the appearance of an older person affect our gut-level assessment of their validity?' to which the answer pretty clearly to me is, quite a bit. I suspect TheFountain expected people would come in here and post to the contrary so he could hold up a mirror to their hypocrisy. OK. I think the method used is quite devious though. If you simply asked 'Do we all agree that the better a person's mental and physical health the more useful they are to society, and that their physical appearance allows us to make an educated guess as to their functional capacity?' not many would disagree.

Of course sexuality is lurking in our assessments of others, particularly in first impressions (what Malcom Gladwell in Blink called 'thin-slicing'), since the prerogative of the selfish gene preempts social mores wrt monogamy or age-appropriate behaviour and would have us always on the lookout for a potential mate. Sexuality is also bound up with what one might call 'life force', as Freud implied with his concepts of Eros (life-wish) and Thanatos (death-wish). And as we know, androgen levels and longevity are interlinked.

I would conclude that our negative reaction* to the age-afflicted has some sexual aspect at a very base level, but is for the most part just giving us useful information regarding the health status of the individual.

*(If you are adamant that your reaction is not negative, try some of the tests here: https://implicit.har...licit/research/. I'm pretty sure there's an age category.)

[Chaos Theory]

Now you're talking about the redirection of Libido. One could argue that they are still human and thus still deserving of physical affection from other humans. But there is no way to measure whether or not they are happy without it.

You could try asking them..

I actually wish I had such simplistic goals in life. Most of the people I know care only about sex/relationships. Even my friends who went through divorces jumped straight into another relationship.

The happiness it brings is so fleeting. Personally I can only see lasting happiness coming through a productive life full of experiences. I also see that as being attainable at any time in my life, not limited to my youth.

[ben951]

Well that was a response to someone elses observation that many older people feel like '20 year olds' in their minds, despite being 50, 60, 70 or whatever their chronoligical/physical age might be. Perhaps we as a society confuse this with mental illness or even, in the extreme scenario, senility? Is a 50 year old man trying to sleep with a teenage girl a mental illness or is it a lack of connection between the fact that, though he might feel 20 in his mind, he is still 50 physically? Furthermore as his body 'ages' while his mind does not does this gap of understanding and comprehension widen and prevent him from 'getting it' as it were? There, I just gave you a mega-dose of vitamin T (for thinking). Now contemplate!

I got the original point. My point is that normal older men don't want to sleep with teenage girls. Heck, even I don't, and I'm far younger than the guys in that video.

No. 'Normal' older men lie about wanting to sleep with teenage girls out of moral conditioning. These men obviously do not possess the capacity of hiding their desire. Does it make them more guilty or less guilty?

I have to agree with that, "normal" men, older or not, are genetically programmed to be attracted by female body after puberty, when it looks like a female body (ready for reproduction).
So teenage girl doesn't mean much.
Attraction toward them before puberty is a psychological disorder after it's not.
Just to be clear I'm not making the apology of sex with minor even after puberty, it's forbidden and there's reasons for that, body and mind don't always match as we age.

But unlike many here, I don't see any problem if it's between 2 consent adult even with a big age difference.

I wonder how society will evolve when 80 YO will start to look like 25 after rejuvenation therapies.

I'm convinced nobody will see any problem by then, it will be a new era, we will just start to free ourselves from our bodies.

Isn't this the title of the new Singularity movie: "2b: the era of flesh is over"

Edited by ben951, 23 February 2010 - 11:58 AM.

[solbanger]

You can be old and be more attractive than a younger person if you are fit, and the young person in question is not. Looks are subjective anyway-bone structure wise/height wise and all that. An older person can contribute more to society with their monetary contributions, and on average donate a lot more money than younger people. Also there are young people who are unattractive purely through their actions. "Looks" are not as important as being conscientious contributers to society in my opinion

What you descibed is the Sean Connery effect. Some of my female friends when I was in college had this discussion. They specifically named him as a man who looked much better in older age, whereas in his youth he was a little monkey looking. It's because the bones in the face shift. Some people actually end up with more symmetrical, well rounded faces in older age because of this.

As for the question of underlying anger/resentment of the old. I believe that this feeling exists in most western countries. America especially since it is perceived that the old have all the money in this country. Resentment also exists due to the perception that the older generation has squandered their wealth on Wall Street lottery games while making the younger generations work harder for less out of "pride." Younger people are literally on a treadmill that's going faster and faster and steeper and steeper serving their parent's indulgences. The net effect to this vampirism is that fewer babies are born due to all the debt, women are ending up spinsters cause they can't find a guy who makes more than them, average guys bitterly resent the same women for abandoning them in the sex circus for bigshots and innovation in general gets stalled as the creaky minions at the top thwart every attack on their older technological niches. And a bunch of foreigners holding bad US treasuries start whispering in the ear of the Fed. That's the brief version.

[brokenportal]

Listen, put on some ocean sounds, relax in your recliner and enjoy the philosophical masturbation that this type of conversation puts forth. I remember a quote. "philosophy is the evolution of ideas'. I do not remember who said this but it is an awesome statement and certainly one to live by!

I think just about anything is worth debating, maybe not all of the time, but at least some of the time, for these reasons. As long as people can stick to the facts and avoid the ad hominem and other fallacies then it can be an excellent way to generate hard to reach idiosyncratic perspectives and work out your brain.

[Connor MacLeod]

The weak responses to the original post cause me to believe that the ovens might be firing up again soon enough.

[TheFountain]

Now you're talking about the redirection of Libido. One could argue that they are still human and thus still deserving of physical affection from other humans. But there is no way to measure whether or not they are happy without it.

You could try asking them..

I actually wish I had such simplistic goals in life. Most of the people I know care only about sex/relationships. Even my friends who went through divorces jumped straight into another relationship.

The happiness it brings is so fleeting. Personally I can only see lasting happiness coming through a productive life full of experiences. I also see that as being attainable at any time in my life, not limited to my youth.

The depressing aspect of this argument is that it always comes from we the young. Whenever I hear older people talking about such things they make it seem as if you cannot accomplish certain tasks beyond a certain numeral. Physical activity is just one of them but as people like Jack Lellane have proven, if your will is strong enough, 50, 60, 70, 80 and beyond are just numbers.