91 replies to this topic

[Godof Smallthings]

Did you have a reference for your claim about silymarin and testosterone? Or did you just think you'd spice things up by a little ad hominem?

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 05 October 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[NilsOlav]

Bumping an old thread to say, wow! This sounds like one amazing supplement. However, as a straight male I worry that it might make me grow breasts due to the estrogen/prolactin content. What are the chances of that happening? I drank soy milk for a few months without growing breasts, how does soy milk's estrogen content compare to milk thistle?

Edited by NilsOlav, 04 June 2014 - 12:55 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

Haha
I take milk thistle/ silymarin for liver health...I've supplemented it for almost 10 years,... no " moobs " yet!

[PWAIN]

What is the best sup for protecting the liver? Is this the best or can something do the job better?

[Dolph]

Milk Thistle is very effective in death cap poisonings. But in this case it's used as intravenous infusion, oral availability is very poor! Apart from this specific effect the evidence of a "general protective effect" is meager at best. On the other hand it's at least safe as far as we know and there is no obvious alternative for those who want to support their livers for whatever reason.

 

To "protect" the liver from intoxications as such is next to impossible if you understand liver physiology. Avoidance of toxicants has to be first priority in any case. Ursodeoxycholic acid might be of some value when using drugs that could cause cholestasis.

[Kevnzworld]

Milk thistle, silymarin has been shown to be mildly effective in this meta analysis of 37 studies. Newer formulations are more potent and those combined with phosphatidyl choline ( also a liver protectant ) are more bio available.
Supplements that raise or maintain glutathione levels are also prophylactic . These include NAC, Alpha lipoid acid and SAMe

http://link.springer...200161140-00003

Edited by Kevnzworld, 04 June 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

What is the best sup for protecting the liver? Is this the best or can something do the job better?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10698372

Polyenylphosphatidylcholine protects against alcohol but not iron-induced oxidative stress in the liver

 

CONCLUSIONS: PPC prevents the alcohol-induced oxidative stress but only in the absence of iron overload

 

This paper describes not only what is good for liver protection, but also a problematic liver pro-oxidant (Iron).  

 

There are a number of studies that indicate PPC is a top tier liver supplement (SAM-e is another), but when stored iron (ferritin) is elevated, it can overcome even the best liver support supplements.  

 

Males tend to accumulate excess iron in middle age and alcohol consumption is known to exacerbate this problem.  The liver is the primary storage site in the body for excess iron, and increasing evidence indicates excess stored iron is at the core of many inflammatory liver problems.  

 

Males who reduce iron loading by donating blood a couple of times a year will take a tremendous load off their liver.  Add some PPC and/or SAM-e and you're practically bullet proof.  Allow iron to pile up (ferritin into triple digits) and nothing can effectively quench the chronic inflammation elevated iron can cause.  

 

More on this here: http://healtheiron.p.../iron-diabetes1

 

Get thee to a blood bank!

Edited by synesthesia, 07 June 2014 - 12:06 AM.

[hav]

NAC is commonly used to thwart liver damage from tylenol overdose.  Bupleurum is another natural herb reputed to both protect from and repair liver damage.  There's also a Japanese herbal concoction called Sho-Saiko-To that there seems to be a growing amount of research on.

 

Howard

 

[chipdouglas]

As far as I'm concerned, milk thistle improves subjective well-being - there's at least that one study mentioned in this thread showing milk thistle can relieve anxiety (at least in those with OCD). 

 

Have others reading this also noticed any mood improvement while on Milk thistle ?

[eon]

this is getting even more interesting, it may be even nootropic (at least mild):

Alterations in Regional Brain Neurotransmitters by Silymarin, a Natural Antioxidant Flavonoid Mixture, in BALB/c Mice

Marcin Osuchowski, Victor Johnson, Quanren He and Raghubir Sharma

Silymarin, a natural antioxidant flavonoid mixture, exerts anti-inflammatory effects in the liver and hinders tumor formation. The effect of this flavonoid mixture on the central nervous system is unknown, although antioxidants are considered beneficial. Brain amines and metabolites were studied after a short-term silymarin treatment. BALB/c mice were intraperitoneally treated with 0, 10, 50, or 250 mg/kg of silymarin per day for 5 days. High-performance liquid chromatography coupled with electrochemical detection was performed to determine concentrations of norepinephrine (NE), dopamine (DA), dioxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC), homovanillic acid (HVA), 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT, serotonin) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) in discrete brain regions. Analyses showed increased 5-HT levels in the cortex and increased DA and NE levels in the cerebellum in the highest dose group. Results indicated lack of general adverse effect on the brain amine metabolism and suggest that silymarin may have marginal serotonergic, dopaminergic, and noradrenergic effects.

Neurotrophic and neuroprotective effects of milk thistle (Silybum marianum) on neurons in culture

Smita Kittur, Skuntala Wilasrusmee, Ward A. Pedersen, Mark. P. Mattson, Karen Straube-West, Chumpon Wilasrusmee, Burk Jubelt and Dilip S. Kittur
Abstract
Herbal products are being increasingly used as dietary supplements and therapeutic agents. However, much more research must be performed in order to determine the biological basis for their putative clinical effects. We tested the effects of milk thistle (Silybum marianum) extract on the differentiation and survival of cultured neural cells. Milk thistle enhanced nerve growth factor (NGF)-induced neurite outgrowth in PC-12 neural cells and prolonged their survival in culture. Milk thistle extract also protected cultured rat hippocampal neurons against oxidative stress-induced cell death. Our data demonstrate that milk thistle extract can promote neuronal differentiation and survival, suggesting potential benefits of chemicals in this plant on the nervous system.

 

As someone with OCD, I can't say for sure if Milk Thistle works for it but my OCD sure has almost vanished but it could be due to a variety of compounds I took. I mainly give respect to Kava. The irony here is Kava is "allegedly" bad for the liver, so I was curious if taking both Kava with something that's good for the liver like Milk Thistle be beneficial? I haven't heard that combo yet. I have taken both but not at the same time. I know NAC is praised for treating OCD with Trichotillomania sufferers. 

 

Maybe I haven't taken a potent form of Milk Thistle, which would be what? I wonder if the tea form would be considered potent?

 

But regarding the liver support benefits of Milk Thistle there is another compound I just read about that also helps with liver issues but the article I read was a story about its prostate cancer treatment/cure potential and it's called 4-methylumbelliferone:

 

http://www.foxnews.c...cer-study-says/

 

 

from wikipedia: Silipide (trade name Siliphos), a complex of silymarin and phosphatidylcholine (lecithin), is about ten times more bioavailable than silymarin.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silymarin

does that mean it is better to take milk thistle with PC/lecithin?

 

Isn't the Life Extension brand of Milk Thistle combined with PC?

Edited by eon, 20 April 2015 - 05:35 AM.

[Logic]

Milk Thistle and Melatonin have been made scheduled drugs here. (South Africa)

Making them no longer financially feasible to produce by manufacturers and thus unavailable for purchase, even if you do get a script from a doctor.

 

I see this as confirmation of a list of the most effective = feared by  Big Pharma supps available.
Their easy elimination from the pharmacopoeia of SA is most likely due to the ease with which authorities here are bribed, but I wouldn't be surprised if similar plans are afoot in other countries.

 

Milk Thistle does way more than protect livers.

It demonstrated the ability to increase telomerase activity 3-fold, restoring stem cell proliferation, increasing it by 65% in a physiologically normal dosage???

It  regenerates both liver and kidney cells and seems worthy of more research into increasing its bioavailability?

 

http://www.researchg...eliminary_Study

[ceridwen]

My quack told me not to take it. It's back on the menu
As from now.

[eon]

Odd, considering scheduled drugs are generally addictive types (in the U.S.).

 

 

Milk Thistle and Melatonin have been made scheduled drugs here. (South Africa)

Making them no longer financially feasible to produce by manufacturers and thus unavailable for purchase, even if you do get a script from a doctor.

 

I see this as confirmation of a list of the most effective = feared by  Big Pharma supps available.
Their easy elimination from the pharmacopoeia of SA is most likely due to the ease with which authorities here are bribed, but I wouldn't be surprised if similar plans are afoot in other countries.

 

Milk Thistle does way more than protect livers.

It demonstrated the ability to increase telomerase activity 3-fold, restoring stem cell proliferation, increasing it by 65% in a physiologically normal dosage???

It  regenerates both liver and kidney cells and seems worthy of more research into increasing its bioavailability?

 

http://www.researchg...eliminary_Study

 

[YOLF]

I'm sure all you milk thistle fans will find this as fascinating as I did:
Sierra Sciences has identified Silymarin as a potent inducer of telomerase.
(HeLa scores of ~2.4% at the time of the patent filing.)

I've posted a link to the recently released world patent application on product B, in the product B thread:
http://www.longecity...251#entry531251

Summarizing the patent in 2 sentences: Silymarin / milk thistle is the most potent natural inducer of telomerase described in the patent, and makes up ~50% of product B by weight. Different preparations/extractions of silymarin vary widely w/ respect to their ability to activate telomerase.

This is indeed a very remarkable compound.

Anything to compare it to TA65?

[YOLF]

Milk Thistle and Melatonin have been made scheduled drugs here. (South Africa)

Making them no longer financially feasible to produce by manufacturers and thus unavailable for purchase, even if you do get a script from a doctor.

 

I see this as confirmation of a list of the most effective = feared by  Big Pharma supps available.
Their easy elimination from the pharmacopoeia of SA is most likely due to the ease with which authorities here are bribed, but I wouldn't be surprised if similar plans are afoot in other countries.

 

Milk Thistle does way more than protect livers.

It demonstrated the ability to increase telomerase activity 3-fold, restoring stem cell proliferation, increasing it by 65% in a physiologically normal dosage???

It  regenerates both liver and kidney cells and seems worthy of more research into increasing its bioavailability?

 

http://www.researchg...eliminary_Study

Is improving one's health without a doctor illegal or frowned upon in SA?

[YOLF]

Bumping an old thread to say, wow! This sounds like one amazing supplement. However, as a straight male I worry that it might make me grow breasts due to the estrogen/prolactin content. What are the chances of that happening? I drank soy milk for a few months without growing breasts, how does soy milk's estrogen content compare to milk thistle?

Actually, soy estrogens aren't as functional as natural estrogens IIRC, same with pomegranate, so they actually make you stronger and more T driven. I imagine that wouldn't lead to developing breasts... maybe the opposite. Might be bad for women? Might be good and help them lose weight with resistance workouts?

[nowayout]

iproliferative_Activity_of_Rapamycin_Preliminary_Study

Is improving one's health without a doctor illegal or frowned upon in SA?

 

Not really.  The supplement market in S.A. is comparable to that in the U.S., i.e., not very regulated at all.  So scheduling milk thistle, of all things, is bizarre to me. 

 

[ceridwen]

@yolf that's probably why my Dr told me not to take it!

[ceridwen]

Just took some

[eon]

you people talking about Milk Thistle or something else?

 

@yolf that's probably why my Dr told me not to take it!

 

 

Just took some

 

[Logic]

Is improving one's health without a doctor illegal or frowned upon in SA?

I think its frowned upon by by those who stand to make money from the far more lucrative conventional ...'therapies' for a vast array of ailments.
SA is now run by a very easily corruptible ...'government', making it easy to ban anything threatening profits.

Plant extracts are quietly being 'banned; from other countries too.
http://www.google.co...b=0&gsc.q=Codex

Alive and well?
http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

Edited by Logic, 28 April 2015 - 12:11 AM.

[YOLF]

Just took some

Some what?

[YOLF]

 

Is improving one's health without a doctor illegal or frowned upon in SA?

Alive and well?
http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

 

Well cigarettes are still legal in most countries, it would seem rather widespread.

[Junk Master]

I'm really interested to see if anyone here has gone mortar and pestle with beta-cyclodextrin!!

[vader]

270mg milk thistle extract a day for 3 - 4 weeks has a strong nootropic effect, reduces my visual snow and halos at night / depersonalization. Sides are complete lack of libido (made record long nofap streaks).

 

Honestly, if i were asked i would say it seems similar to an antidepressant / SSRI to me.

[Dorian Grey]

Saw this a while back and thought we might be interested.  Apparently milk thistle is notorious for mycotoxin contamination.  

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26168136

 

Mycotoxins in Plant-Based Dietary Supplements: Hidden Health Risk for Consumers

 

"The highest mycotoxin concentrations were found in milk thistle-based supplements (up to 37 mg/kg in the sum)"

 

I expect some mycotoxins are more dangerous than others, but many are dangerous indeed!  A word to the wise.  

Edited by synesthesia, 25 May 2016 - 07:54 PM.

[maxwatt]

One should distinguish between standardized extracts, typically 80% silymarin, produced by alcohol extraction and HPLC concentration, and the 4:1 ratio extracts which contain a lot of organic matter, i.e.  I would expect the latter to be a fertile medium for the growth of mycotoxins,  The standardized extract would not be likely to have this problem.

 

The paper referenced above is behind a paywall, so I cannot tell which form was used in the study.

[sativa]

270mg milk thistle extract a day for 3 - 4 weeks has a strong nootropic effect, reduces my visual snow and halos at night / depersonalization. Sides are complete lack of libido (made record long nofap streaks).

Honestly, if i were asked i would say it seems similar to an antidepressant / SSRI to me.

Milk thistle has possible slight Mu opioid activity, and can raise prolactin:

Phytomedicine. 2009 Sep;16(9):839-44. doi: 10.1016/j.phymed.2009.02.007. Epub 2009 Mar 20.
Silymarin BIO-C, an extract from Silybum marianum fruits, induces hyperprolactinemia in intact female rats.

Prolactin is a possible cause of low libido due to its inverse relationship with dopamine.

Edited by sativa, 28 May 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[MrSpud]

Some may find this interesting. This article http://www.foodnavig...al-adulteration claims that some manufacturers remove the main active ingredients from milk thistle to use them as pharmaceutical grade silibin and then extract the leftovers to get the less important things that test out as being "silymarins" in less specific assays. I believe this means that if the extracts are made from inferior depleted milk thistle seed powder that the leftovers can then be extracted and concentrated down to still get 80% silymarins by UV.

This article https://www.villagev...ity-update-2015 mentions the problems in the market for milk thistle when companies sell 80% standardized to Silymarin milk thistle products. Here's what it says:
Case in point: USP states that milk thistle products should be tested with HPLC and UV-vis, which are specialized testing mechanisms that identify what compounds are in a given product.

Unfortunately, UV-vis actually overestimates the amount of the active compound silymarin found in a milk thistle product. The UV-vis testing method is not specific to silymarin and identifies other compounds as silymarin. That means a sub-potent product could be reported as potent.

Many manufacturers are buying products that are claiming to be "80% silymarin UV-vis." According to ConsumerLab, many of these are substandard, cheap Chinese raw materials suppliers. When analyzed with a more accurate measure (in this case, the HPLC), it is found that the "80% silymarin" is actually a lot less!

Seven of the 11 companies ConsumerLabs tested failed potency testing for milk thistle. This shows the widespread quality problem in the supplement industry. A majority fail because they are using substandard ingredients from shady sources. Most importantly, they are not then verifying the raw materials and instead taking the supplier's word. Raw materials should be quarantined and tested to validate they are what they say they are.

It's all about cost. HPLC verified milk thistle costs much more than the "80% UV-vis" form. This profit gets paid for by the consumer, who puts trust in an industry that doesn't deserve it.

I just found these websites real quick to show what I'm talking about, you can search for better research, but what I've found over the years is that a lot of cheaper milk thistle extracts can contain little of the main actives and still pass the UV test for 80% Silymarin and some have been found to be high in residual solvents (usually acetone, but that article above claims gasoline was found in one), so I always tried to use ones that are made to European pharmaceutical standards where they guarantee that they contain silibin like Siliphos (the extract is made by Indena, but is sold by many marketers as finished products) or one I know is made to European standards like Thisilyn from Natures Way (the extract is made by Schwabe in Europe). Those two also have things in them to enhance bioavailability too, because silymarins are hard to absorb.

[davis89x]

The paper referenced above is behind a paywall, so I cannot tell which form was used in the study.

Here you have it: http://sci-hub.bz/10...cs.jafc.5b02105