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Reversal of Aging


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#31 Mark Hamalainen

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 05:55 PM

are there any criticisms of it?


So far just prometheus.

This is a fascinating concept. It implies that the genome is inherently unstable and in a constant state of flux. Mutations are constantly bubbling forth but only the cells with suitable characteristcs are selected.


Thank you, thats exactly what it means. Although the credit should be given to Darwin as this is just a restatement of the theory of evolution. Your wording implies that this is happening at a very fast rate, although obviously the rate of mutation varies greatly between species. Looked at from evolutionary timescales though, it is an appropriate description I think.

If we extrapolate this reasoning to structures other than DNA it is surprising that every cell does not spontaneously decompose into a chaotic broth of proteins, carbohydrates and lipids.


I'm not sure how you determine this. Information loss doesn't happen in parallel at the same rate in all molecules. Also turnover is timed appropriately to avoid this. Unlike all of the other molecules in our bodies, DNA does not have a reference to compare to if it is mutated, thus it is in a fundamentally different situation than the other biological molecules.

So indeed it is by design that genomic integrity is subject to corruption.


The rate of corruption is effected by evolution. Its inevitability, given our design (uni-directional flow of information), is not. It is not possible to obviate mutations through repair mechanisms.

Is it possible to slow DNA mutations in the somatic body by orders of magnitude? Maybe. How far are we from being able to do that? I don't know. Would it cure aging? No. There is no logical reason why DNA mutations should be the only cause of aging, nor any evidence. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a significant feat, with significant effects... I'm saying it isn't a complete cure.

We've been over this before though. If you have a mechanistic explanation for how DNA could maintain its information content with 100% fidelity without a higher level reference, then please explain it in detail.

#32 DJS

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Posted 05 June 2005 - 07:03 PM

The answer is, of course, that any cell that evolved an advanced genomic stability strategy would not survive for long since it would relinquish its ability to evolve. Consequently, excellent DNA repair is selected against.


The question that I have Prometheus, and which I have not seen a satisfactory answer for, is why the germ line must be coupled with the somatic line? This is the basic challenge that was brought up by Aubrey in one of the SENS threads. I think we all agree that evolution is a very creative and resourceful bio-engineer. Why then, didn't it just figure out a way to separate the germ line from the somatic line, and allow the germ line to maintain a higher degree of mutability?

That really is what kills this line of reasoning for me -- especially when it is known that there is actually a higher rate of mutation in the somatic body than in the germ line. It just doesn't seem to add up.

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#33 John Schloendorn

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 01:41 AM

Why would such a decoupling evolve? By your own argument it would confer a late-life somatic advantage that might simply not have been under sufficient selective pressure to evolve in humans -- just like any other longevity extending modification that we would like to see, but don't.
However, it could be argued that this happened in reptiles with neglegible senescence. Does cancer incidence increase with age in these animals (Being compensated by other, declining causes of death)?

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#34

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 03:04 AM

Information loss doesn't happen in parallel at the same rate in all molecules.


I'm not suggesting that it does. On the contrary, my point was to illustrate that biomolecules have a tendency not to fall to pieces in the same fashion that other structures do. Hayflick, for example, often will use the metaphor of a car and how it inevitably falls to pieces - but this is a fundamentally innapropriate analogy since biomolecules appear to prefer higher order structures.

DNA does not have a reference to compare to if it is mutated, thus it is in a fundamentally different situation than the other biological molecules.


It does have a reference so long as the damage is only on one strand. If it is on both then it is a matter of the effectiveness of innate repair systems of the cell. D. radiodurans has remarkable repair abilities and is an example of just how much repair is possible. There is also the possibility that at least a portion of the genome always exists in RNA form as evidenced by some very recent findings in arabidopsis genetics hence providing another reference point. More importantly, however, is that loss of genomic integrity does not appear to manifest in humans until after puberty and this is of paramount significance suggesting that endogenous genomic maintenance until this time is sufficient to overcome any attrition.

The rate of corruption is effected by evolution. Its inevitability, given our design (uni-directional flow of information), is not.


I'm not following what you mean here particularly in the second sentence.

It is not possible to obviate mutations through repair mechanisms.


If by obviation you mean to prevent and if by mutation you mean a molecular lesion in DNA that can lead to a base change then I cannot follow your reasoning. DNA lesions are occuring all the time in the cell, in some cases as many as a few hundred thousand per 24 hours. They are constantly repaired. If you are referring to damage that has escaped repair mechanisms and has become integrated in the genome and is able to propagate with cell division, then repair mechanisms no longer are relevant.

Is it possible to slow DNA mutations in the somatic body by orders of magnitude? Maybe. How far are we from being able to do that? I don't know. Would it cure aging? No.


We observe tremendous variation in nature in the ability of cells to deal with repairing DNA damage - by orders of magnitude. I'm uncomfortable with a scholar making an absolutist statement such as: "Would it cure aging? No". I think you meant unlikely. Otherwise you must be privy to knowledge that is outside of public domain to be so convinced that DNA mutations have no relevance to aging!

We've been over this before though. If you have a mechanistic explanation for how DNA could maintain its information content with 100% fidelity without a higher level reference, then please explain it in detail.


A detailed explanation I cannot offer but the general theory is eminently straight forward: it is a two pronged strategy that would involve upregulation of the "accurate" DNA repair mechanisms to deal with repair as soon as damage has occured and upregulation of antioxidant scavengers and organelle turnover signaling pathways to minimize the production of DNA damaging molecules. This methodology would, of course, not ensure 100% fidelity but would increase it sufficiently to induce measurable changes in cell lifespan and robustness. If genomic instability is related to aging, and I am convinced that it is, then one should observe a change in the lifespan of an organism that has had such genetic modifications.

The question that I have Prometheus, and which I have not seen a satisfactory answer for, is why the germ line must be coupled with the somatic line? This is the basic challenge that was brought up by Aubrey in one of the SENS threads. I think we all agree that evolution is a very creative and resourceful bio-engineer. Why then, didn't it just figure out a way to separate the germ line from the somatic line, and allow the germ line to maintain a higher degree of mutability?


We observe a great deal of conservation in many genetic mechanisms not merely across cell types within a single organism - such as between stem and somatic cells - but across species as diverse as single celled to multicelled organisms. It stands to reason that fundamental genomic DNA repair and other genomic stability mechanisms across eukaryotes are similarly conserved - and this is precisely what we observe. We also observe that cells carry on their processes in a fashion that expends the least amount of energy, hence it is unlikely that a cell will devise a novel mechanism for something that, for example, it can already do by way of altering regulation. These are the two pillars - conservation and economy - on which this hypothesis is based. In time, and with the aid of transcription studies where we can measure the difference in which genes are active between stem and somatic cells in the context of genomic stability I am confident that this theory will receive more experimental support. In the interim I must avail myself to deductive reasoning and the differences in gene expression as we presently understand between stem and somatic cells. We see that somatic cells have a great many genes switched off that are associated with growth and repair, thus it is in fact less likely for a stem cell to undergo damage (or be subject to mutation) than it is for a somatic cell.

#35 Mark Hamalainen

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 02:25 PM

not ensure 100% fidelity but would increase it sufficiently to induce measurable changes in cell lifespan and robustness


Well then we agree. All I'm trying to say is that because the fidelity cannot be 100%, it cannot maintain the information indefinitely. I also agreed with you that improving genomic stability would probably have a significant effect. Yes there are two strands of DNA, and that is a redundancy which as you point out, allows for repair by comparison. However, if both strands are effected by a mutation, or if there is a mistake in repair resulting in a mismatch, there is a non-zero probability that the sequence will change. I have never heard of DNA repair using RNA as a template, however given the lower fidelity of RNA transcription compared to DNA replication, this would be more likely to introduce new errors into the DNA sequence, so I find it unlikely that such a mechanism exists. Even if it does exist, at best it could somewhat decrease the rate of sequence changes, not stop them entirely.

If by obviation.... you are referring to damage that has escaped repair mechanisms and has become integrated in the genome and is able to propagate with cell division, then repair mechanisms no longer are relevant.

That is what I mean, are we just arguing over semantics here?

You took my 'absolutist' quote out of context.

Would it cure aging? No. There is no logical reason why DNA mutations should be the only cause of aging, nor any evidence.

Do you honestly believe that in absense of any other treatment, improvement of genomic stability can cure aging? I don't think its unreasonable to say 'no' to that.

I do not discount the possibility that genomic stability is the primary limiting factor in our lifespans. However, as has been discussed in these boards before, there is no evidence or logic to prove that to be the case, it is a matter of opinion and my personal opinion is that it is not the case.

#36

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 12:44 AM

If by obviation.... you are referring to damage that has escaped repair mechanisms and has become integrated in the genome and is able to propagate with cell division, then repair mechanisms no longer are relevant.

That is what I mean, are we just arguing over semantics here?


My point was that mutations can be obviated (prevented from occuring) or at the very least reduced in their rate of occurance by DNA repair mechanisms in response to your statement, "It is not possible to obviate mutations through repair mechanisms."
Which is, by definition, incorrect.

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#37

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 01:44 AM

I have never heard of DNA repair using RNA as a template, however given the lower fidelity of RNA transcription compared to DNA replication, this would be more likely to introduce new errors into the DNA sequence, so I find it unlikely that such a mechanism exists.


Did you read the Nature paper attached below? Whilst it is not discussing RNA as a template for repair, it is reasonable to suspect that if the template exists for passing on genetic data it could also function for repair.

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#38 Mark Hamalainen

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Posted 07 June 2005 - 01:57 AM

My point was that mutations can be obviated (prevented from occuring)


My apologies. For some reason I thought obviate meant prevent completely, not just prevent.




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